Full disclosure, if this game was 98% white people in the art (as is the actual demographic that plays it and produces it), I wouldn't mind at all. What bothers me is the clear pandering and overrepresentation of Black people for obvious political reasons, while there's a much larger Latino playerbase than Black playerbase. If they truly cared about accurate representation, we would have a LOT more Latino characters.
Except, I have met Hispanic folx that do have dark brown hair. I think it is perfectly reasonable to want greater Latin American representation but please understand that if the decision by WotC's to represent more Black people is inherently political, than it would be just as political to consciously represent more Latin American people.
Furthermore, this isn't a zero-sum issue. Having more Black people represented in MtG does not necessarily impede any greater, and more conscious decision by WotC to represent Latinos.
Edit: As ThyLordQ put it, one can argue for greater representation without the attack on other marginalized peoples.
Help me understand here.
I am a Latino with matte skin and brown hair. Also, I could be from Switzerland and have the exact same colors. Brown hair doesn't represent me as a Latino.
The thing is, from what I've heard from WOTC, The Professor, and other advocates for diversity in WOTC (I know TCC isn't officially WOTC but he gives the same points), the point of diversity in MTG art and lore isn't (explicitly, but we all know it's the real reason) because of contigent political issues, but because they want an "accurate representation of human diversity and playerbase". If that was truly the case, we would have a lot more Latino representation than Black representation because the Latino playerbase is indeed larger than the Black playerbase.
Full disclosure, if this game was 98% white people in the art (as is the actual demographic that plays it and produces it), I wouldn't mind at all. What bothers me is the clear pandering and overrepresentation of Black people for obvious political reasons, while there's a much larger Latino playerbase than Black playerbase. If they truly cared about accurate representation, we would have a LOT more Latino characters.
I feel you. I don't think representation needs to be at the expense of anyone though. Let's just have it for both black and Latino people.
My only gripe is accuracy. If we're doing Ixalan, should be Latino. Kamigawa, Japanese. Theros, Greek. Aside from PW, I'd like planes to have racial identity as well, except places like Dominaria that have many continents and aren't based on real-world cultures. After the Theros art book, it finally made sense why Theros has black people, since they did expand its geography (thankfully) so it can encompass North Africa-like regions instead of just being three freaking cities. But it's awkward if we return to Kamigawa and there's anything but Asian natives for example.
Then again idk, Linden kinda worked in Edlraine despite it being European themed.
And I completely agree with that. If we returned to Kamigawa and everyone but the planeswalkers were of an Asian phenotype, that'd be completely fine by me. That's only accurate. Same thing for a Slavic-themed plane with most or only Slavic looking people. It's the fact that they're so afraid to put white people in the Scandinavian plane that they HAVE to slap a Black woman on the cover that bothers me. But hey, at least we know they would'd dare to do that in a Chinese-inspired plane...
Full disclosure, if this game was 98% white people in the art (as is the actual demographic that plays it and produces it), I wouldn't mind at all. What bothers me is the clear pandering and overrepresentation of Black people for obvious political reasons, while there's a much larger Latino playerbase than Black playerbase. If they truly cared about accurate representation, we would have a LOT more Latino characters.
The fact that they are so desperate to overrepresent Black people because BLM is actually a sign of how USA-centric the game is, because BLM is just not a thing down here, or at least it's a small part in comparison to indigenous people's vindication movements (like the Mapuche in Chile and Argentina, the various Incan-descended and Andean peoples of Peru and Bolivia, and let's not even get started on Brazil).
Looking at these new PWs and artwork, TBH something that irks me is the lack of Latino representation in MTG (speaking AS as Latino from Chile, btw). I mean, South America is a whole sub-continent and arguanly everyone here who plays MTG is Latino, whereas the Black population that plays MTG (pretty much only in the US and parts of Europe) is like, what, 5% at the most IIRC? Yet it seems like most MTG characters nowadays are Black. If representation matters so much, there's like, you know, a whole subcontinent of us...
What about Teyo is recognizably Latino? He looks and is called the same as a generic human from, say, Star Wars.
Mike Bierek coming out and saying "hey, btw Teyo is actually Latino if you didn't know!" is the same as J.K. Rowling saying 10 years later that Dumbledore is gay despite there not being any sign of it whatsoever in the books.
The closest to an identifiably Latino PW is Huatli. And even then she represents precolumbian aztecs, a very specific subgroup.
Looking at these new PWs and artwork, TBH something that irks me is the lack of Latino representation in MTG (speaking AS a Latino from Chile, btw). I mean, South America is a whole sub-continent and arguably everyone here who plays MTG is Latino, whereas the Black population that plays MTG (pretty much only in the US and parts of Europe) is like, what, 5% at the most IIRC? Yet it seems like most MTG characters nowadays are Black. If representation matters so much, there's like, you know, a whole subcontinent of us...
A Wayne Reynolds secret lair? Finally, one of the few ones I'd actually get, Reynolds being one of the few MTG artist with a clear distinct style. About time too, since he's been on MTG at least since Kamigawa.
@ThyLordQ, yep, we've gotten some elf precons in the not too distant past, but it's been AGES since we had actual interesting elves in a plane. As I said in another thread, Ravnica and Kaladesh elves are pretty much the same and as boring as can be, while there are no elves in Ixalan, no elves in Amonkhet, no elves in Innistrad, no elves in Theros, barely any elves in Eldraine, no elves in Ikoria... I always roll my eyes when people say "elves AGAIN??? Ugh, we're so saturated of them!" If you actually were a fan of elves, you'd know the last time we got actual interesting elves was Lorwyn, 13 years ago.
While I understand the sentiment of your post, I do not feel that the gatekeeping language is helpful. I feel that the mindset of excluding others based on harmless opinions only breeds hostility.
I personally find the lore of the elves of Eldraine and Kaladesh intriguing, even if we did not see much of them mechanically.
I also feel it is a bit more understandable that the initial tribal antagonists of a tribe focused plane would receive more visibility and focus on and off cards than a plane with a different theme might.
But those are just my feelings. As I said at the beginning, I understand your feelings on the matter.
(And to clarify, I also understand that the "you" in the end of your post is rhetorical, I did not make this response in the belief I was being called out in some capacity.)
In reference to the actual decks, I wonder if there is going to be a distinction between Light Elves and Dark Elves. Could this plane give us a BGW legend for Elf Commander?
I sincerely apologize that I was hostile in that post. I do get fairly passionate when it comes to the pointy-eared, and the wonderful but wasted art on the Lathril box made me momentarily upset (though it still really disappoints me). And yes, as you suppose, I only @'d you to make a point based on your comment, but not really directed at you as much as whoever that opinion can be applied to. I don't spend enough time on here to think I know your actual opinion on fantasy races. With that said, and as much as I loved Eldraine mostly for the fairy tale flavor, I'm hyped for the fact that for the first time in ages we seem to be getting a new take on elves with some heavy tribal element. A true return to Lorwyn (or a remaster treatment as they seem to be doing with Time Spiral next year) is still top of my list for MTG wishes, though.
I can't be the only one who's sick of the fact that the art on the packaging is always better than the art on the actual card. I just can't be.
I have personally taken this complaint to Maro multiple times, with him actually answering, and had raging fire storms of livid fury about it on these forums in the past. So you are not alone.
And I thank you for that, regardless of result. Art and theme are the reason I play MTG, mechanics being a third for sure (maybe I take them for granted, that MTG is still one of the best card games out there). Considering Elves are my favorite fantasy creature type in fantasy in general, the fact that such an excellent piece of art ended up on the box while the card art looks rather boring, will pretty much determine whether I buy this or not.
@ThyLordQ, yep, we've gotten some elf precons in the not too distant past, but it's been AGES since we had actual interesting elves in a plane. As I said in another thread, Ravnica and Kaladesh elves are pretty much the same and as boring as can be, while there are no elves in Ixalan, no elves in Amonkhet, no elves in Innistrad, no elves in Theros, barely any elves in Eldraine, no elves in Ikoria... I always roll my eyes when people say "elves AGAIN??? Ugh, we're so saturated of them!" If you actually were a fan of elves, you'd know the last time we got actual interesting elves was Lorwyn, 13 years ago.
I have absolutely no problem with Kaldheim not being 100% snow everywhere. If it was, it'd probably be a little boring. There's a reason Empire Strikes Back doesn't take place entirely on Hoth. What I do dislike is that it looks too similar to Zendikar. I've the feeling that due to Zendikar's popularity, floating rocks and huge trees/Pandora/Roger Dean style landscapes are gonna become the new norm for Magic planes onwards...
1: Man, they are really going hard after the Elf Tribal decks in this set.
2: That Seb McKinnon art is AMAZING.
Elves, Pirates, Cascade. Wizards just beating the dead horse till it's turned to glue
This is like complaining about Landfall in Zendikar. They're major themes of the set.
Actually, it's quite different since Landfall is only slammed over your head like this in Zendikar. Meanwhile, this set was not bound by any sort of restriction and yet they chose themes that are already prevalent in many other places. Elves especially, and Pirates so recently. In addition, elves have needed no help so it feels like a very much wasted opportunity for something unique.
Saying they're major themes of the set is not some sort of winning argument to this kind of debate. Because the themes of this set could have been anything. And so, the core principal here is that the themes suck. But thanks anyway.
When was the last time we really got new interesting elf support? Not just speaking of power level but also flavorwise, when was the last time we really got new interesting elves? No elves in Ikoria, no elves in Theros, Ravnica has the most boring elves possible, and before that? No elves in Amonkhet, no elves in Ixalan, no elves in Innistrad. IIRC Eldraine didn't even have a legendary elf. Sure, we'll get a single reprint here and there in a core set or an uncommon elf in a standard set to keep the appearance that WOTC cares about elves, but this whole "Elves are everywhere" argument is bollocks. As someone whose favorite fantasy tribe is elves, I tell you, it's been years since we got something really cool both on the mechanical and flavor sides. Lorwyn was IMO the last time they came up with actually interesting elves, so it's not surprising the best ones lately have been Lorwyn themed in sets like Origins and Commander Legends.
I particularly love the Shadowmoor "get off my lawn" kithkin
Yeah, same here. I really miss the folky, ancient but almost domestic aspect of Lorwyn-Shadowmoor, not to mention the colorful sort of Victorian celtic revival style world. It's my favorite plane and it's such a shame to me they will never return to it.
I am a Latino with matte skin and brown hair. Also, I could be from Switzerland and have the exact same colors. Brown hair doesn't represent me as a Latino.
The thing is, from what I've heard from WOTC, The Professor, and other advocates for diversity in WOTC (I know TCC isn't officially WOTC but he gives the same points), the point of diversity in MTG art and lore isn't (explicitly, but we all know it's the real reason) because of contigent political issues, but because they want an "accurate representation of human diversity and playerbase". If that was truly the case, we would have a lot more Latino representation than Black representation because the Latino playerbase is indeed larger than the Black playerbase.
And I completely agree with that. If we returned to Kamigawa and everyone but the planeswalkers were of an Asian phenotype, that'd be completely fine by me. That's only accurate. Same thing for a Slavic-themed plane with most or only Slavic looking people. It's the fact that they're so afraid to put white people in the Scandinavian plane that they HAVE to slap a Black woman on the cover that bothers me. But hey, at least we know they would'd dare to do that in a Chinese-inspired plane...
He has matte skin and dark brown hair. If that's what an artist considers enough to "represent" Latinos, that's actually insulting.
It's not.
Full disclosure, if this game was 98% white people in the art (as is the actual demographic that plays it and produces it), I wouldn't mind at all. What bothers me is the clear pandering and overrepresentation of Black people for obvious political reasons, while there's a much larger Latino playerbase than Black playerbase. If they truly cared about accurate representation, we would have a LOT more Latino characters.
The fact that they are so desperate to overrepresent Black people because BLM is actually a sign of how USA-centric the game is, because BLM is just not a thing down here, or at least it's a small part in comparison to indigenous people's vindication movements (like the Mapuche in Chile and Argentina, the various Incan-descended and Andean peoples of Peru and Bolivia, and let's not even get started on Brazil).
What about Teyo is recognizably Latino? He looks and is called the same as a generic human from, say, Star Wars.
Mike Bierek coming out and saying "hey, btw Teyo is actually Latino if you didn't know!" is the same as J.K. Rowling saying 10 years later that Dumbledore is gay despite there not being any sign of it whatsoever in the books.
The closest to an identifiably Latino PW is Huatli. And even then she represents precolumbian aztecs, a very specific subgroup.
I sincerely apologize that I was hostile in that post. I do get fairly passionate when it comes to the pointy-eared, and the wonderful but wasted art on the Lathril box made me momentarily upset (though it still really disappoints me). And yes, as you suppose, I only @'d you to make a point based on your comment, but not really directed at you as much as whoever that opinion can be applied to. I don't spend enough time on here to think I know your actual opinion on fantasy races. With that said, and as much as I loved Eldraine mostly for the fairy tale flavor, I'm hyped for the fact that for the first time in ages we seem to be getting a new take on elves with some heavy tribal element. A true return to Lorwyn (or a remaster treatment as they seem to be doing with Time Spiral next year) is still top of my list for MTG wishes, though.
And I thank you for that, regardless of result. Art and theme are the reason I play MTG, mechanics being a third for sure (maybe I take them for granted, that MTG is still one of the best card games out there). Considering Elves are my favorite fantasy creature type in fantasy in general, the fact that such an excellent piece of art ended up on the box while the card art looks rather boring, will pretty much determine whether I buy this or not.
@ThyLordQ, yep, we've gotten some elf precons in the not too distant past, but it's been AGES since we had actual interesting elves in a plane. As I said in another thread, Ravnica and Kaladesh elves are pretty much the same and as boring as can be, while there are no elves in Ixalan, no elves in Amonkhet, no elves in Innistrad, no elves in Theros, barely any elves in Eldraine, no elves in Ikoria... I always roll my eyes when people say "elves AGAIN??? Ugh, we're so saturated of them!" If you actually were a fan of elves, you'd know the last time we got actual interesting elves was Lorwyn, 13 years ago.
Numa's flavor text has the word "his" in reference to Numa 3 times. So no, we haven't gotten to that level of gender neutralization in MTG art... yet.
When was the last time we really got new interesting elf support? Not just speaking of power level but also flavorwise, when was the last time we really got new interesting elves? No elves in Ikoria, no elves in Theros, Ravnica has the most boring elves possible, and before that? No elves in Amonkhet, no elves in Ixalan, no elves in Innistrad. IIRC Eldraine didn't even have a legendary elf. Sure, we'll get a single reprint here and there in a core set or an uncommon elf in a standard set to keep the appearance that WOTC cares about elves, but this whole "Elves are everywhere" argument is bollocks. As someone whose favorite fantasy tribe is elves, I tell you, it's been years since we got something really cool both on the mechanical and flavor sides. Lorwyn was IMO the last time they came up with actually interesting elves, so it's not surprising the best ones lately have been Lorwyn themed in sets like Origins and Commander Legends.
Yeah, same here. I really miss the folky, ancient but almost domestic aspect of Lorwyn-Shadowmoor, not to mention the colorful sort of Victorian celtic revival style world. It's my favorite plane and it's such a shame to me they will never return to it.