Interesting. You don't think Standstill is worse given their man-lands and Wastelands? What other matches do you board out the vials? What do you board in against Counterbalance decks (as I said in the report, I have been liking BtB less and less against CB)?
I've been considering cutting a Mutavault. Rarely do I ever want more than one.
My sb plan for Cbalance has been -2 Etruth, -1 Jitte (unless it runs confidant!), -1 Mutavault, -3 Merfolk Sovereign (strictly worse than the other two lords here.) for +2 B2B, +2 Control Magic, +1 Wipe Away, +2 Misdirection. Two each of the enchantments because you don't want multiples clogging up your hand.
My plans on the play change a bit, as I board in a pair of Stifles and the third B2B instead of control magic and wipe away. With the added tempo I get priority for establishing a lock.
Spell Snare is an excellent card in the format right now, perhaps better than stifle. I recommend testing it out if CB is causing you problems.
One of the reasons I run Jace is because it lets me board out vial against decks like 43land without breaking the deck's synergy, keeping my creature count high when I need to. I also like drawing multiple Jaces more than multiple Standstills, as you can just run down the Jace and play another one.
I board out vials against the black/green aggro decks quite frequently. I lose some combat tricks, to be sure, but overall I want more creatures in my deck so that I can match their goyfs for p/t. I also pull them against burn. Really most decks where there's no fear of countermagic. -vials, +misdirection is actually a boost in tempo, due to the 0 mana cost and instant board-altering potential of misdirection, and a plus in overall card advantage, as multiple misdirections are good while multiple vials are redundant. Six lands in play also makes Vial redundant, but Misdirection actually gets better. I've been considering upping the count in my board to 3.
I've been boarding out vials, stifles, E-truths, and a single Lord of Atlantis for the Lands matchup. I've been happy with bringing in a couple of misdirections to compliment the Back to Basics strategy.
There are actually a few non-blue matchups where I've found myself boarding out vials. I think it's a good move a lot of the time.
In the past, I would cheer when I ripped a Wake Thrasher late. Now I do so when I land a Mutavault early. It feels like a zero sum game.
2. Against both Goblins and Burn I really have not experienced the boon from bigger critters that I imagined I would be. I have found that the opponent is more than capable of keeping my guys below 4/4. In fact the games that I win are always on the back of mana denial and countering spells. Just like with most opponents when I get out in front, I win. It was the exact same with Wake Thrasher.
So in conclusion I feel rather inconclusive.
This.
I've been running 2 Thrasher, 2 Sovereigns for the past month in efforts to see which played better. I almost never wished one card was the other. They both have their role in the deck, but due to cost we cannot run playsets of each.
Perhaps a 3-2 split is correct. If your build has 4 mutavaults (instead of 3), Sovereign should probably be the 3x. If Fire/Ice sees a lot of play in your meta, again Sovereign should be the 3x. If your control/thresh decks don't run red, Thrasher starts to look better at the 3-slot.
Also, the recent Andrew Hansen article listed a fish list with 3 Sygg's, which really intrigued me. It lowers the curve of the deck, and provides unblockability/defense. A white splash list should definitely try 2/3 of those with 3+Thrashers and see how it goes.
If you are comfortable with your CB game, go for Echoing Truth. Along those lines, the presence or absence of Stifle alters the combo game pretty significantly too. So I am saying that minor changes within the build can make you come away with a completely different slant on how combo goes. I think that the widely skewed combo observations of players comes largely from that.
So if you're not running Stifles, E-Truth looks a lot more attractive, and if you are running Stifles, Wipe Away looks better. Interesting.
I liked the article, particularly when you went into specifics on the format itself. Cube sealed is good fun.
I disagree with Darkmindtone's changes. Speed is essential in all formats, but especially one as broken as cube sealed. I recently won a small 8-man with an aggressive GR deck (http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=54240&view=decks*) and made the mistake of not running all the hard-hitting one drops I could have md. I sided in Twinblade Slasher every game. In this format much of the quality removal costs 3+, and most players are focusing their decks around quality (expensive) creatures. A good one drop will usually hit for 4-6 damage. All of a sudden the opponent is pretty close to being burned out, and all before he could get a chance to cast that Silvos in his hand.
Sol Ring does need to be in that MD, though. It drops Juggernaut on turn two and Plow Under on turn three. Sick stuff. Also, I know you probably meant to add it, but Wooded Foothills is missing from your decklist. Seems hot in a RG deck, fetchable Savannah or no.
Sarkan Vol and Duplicant are both excellent ways of turning your opponent's tempo into your tempo, and should compliment your aggressive strategy quite nicely.
Here are the changes I recommend:
-
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Silvos, Rogue Elemental
1 Genesis
While Silvos and Genesis are both game-winners, they both win the game past the time you should have already won. Duplicant, Triskelion, or Crater Hellion are all amazing six drops in this format because they impact the board immediately. Gen/Silvos, however, I would try to trade out for cards that are good all of the time. A high curve will often feel like your deck is forcing you to take mulligans. I made this mistake in the sealed I played in, where I ran Memory Jar over Saproling Burst. Jar wasn't bad, but lost tempo while Saproling Burst would have given me more.
+
Wooded Foothills
Sol Ring
Duplicant
Sarkan Vol
So basically, -thick stuff, +tempo.
While at first it appears that Berserk got a whole lot weaker, don't forget that it can hit that troublesome Soltari Priest that might otherwise go all the way. Even better, it can boost whatever you grab with Sarkan Vol to ensure they never get the creature back! Brutal.
Other cards I'm tempted to take out: Akroma
Other cards I'm tempted to put in: Urza's Rage, Blistering Firecat, Rumbling Slum
In fact, I'm convinced -Akroma, + Slum is a good idea with the changes I already made to the deck.
*Great site for testing constructed formats or simply having fun with Cube sealed or other wacky formats.
If I was to play a playset of either Chant or Silence in D&T, I would probably go with Silence, since it doesn't target. I've seen random Divert or Misdirection in some lists to deal with things like chant. I've never used the "fog" aspect of chant in D&T - that isn't why we use it.
I won a game through fogging once. It went something like this:
Him: turn one 8 ETW tokens.
Me: Gah! Drop vial.
Him:swing for eight (12)
Me: Untap, add counter, pass. Chant(fog) him on upkeep, vial in isamaru.
Me: Untap, add counter. Rip Jitte. Play Jitte.
Him: swing for eight. I vial in Grunt, block two tokens (6).
Me: Untap and equip Jitte for the win.
The Vintage meta-game isn't on its best at the moment (IMO). Mana Drain decks have become very powerful with the "new" combo-kill-condition with Vault/Tez. So now you got a very good control shell + a combo which can often go off turn 2 = not very healthy for the format.
You either have to play vault/tez or play a deck that beats it. Note that the reality is not all black and white as I may have stated it. But you get the picture.
Personally, I preferred Vintage when Gush was unrestricted. Even though GAT at that time was powerful and popular deck to play. It wasn't dominating the field as Tez decks does today.
To be fair, there are two time vault decks in that top eight, and one of them doesn't run Tez.
Painters+Grind or Tinker+Colossus, Stifle+Dreadnought, etc... These are the things vintage is made of.
I preferred Gush unrestricted too. MUD was actually fun to play against, a phenomenon I have yet to see duplicated.
A lot of the similarities between the first two decks are due to metagame concerns. They both realized Bob was the best draw engine for the metagame, so they both have a tutorable answer (fire/ice and Darkblast) for their opponent's bob.
Hey, new player here (Little under a year, I can play just dont know all the strats)
Is it possible to build this deck effectively (Karakas is a need card, as I can clearly see) without any of the special lands? I mean, do I REALLY need 4 Wastelands, 3-4 Rishadan Ports, and Jitte's? Are there "substitute" cards that can fit the role of a toolbox deck? I'm workin on a budget here, so cards that cost $20 a pop are....outta the question.
Any advice/strats would be helpful, and thanks ahead of time
Sure, there have been a few lists that do well with the much-more-reasonably-priced Mishra's Factory in place of the disruption lands.
There is no substitution for Jitte, however. You will need at least two of them. Try picking them up through trade. Some people value a beat up Jitte fairly low (around 14-16.)
Aether vials are also a little $$$, but like Jitte they are a format staple and shouldn't decrease in value anytime soon. Best of luck.
I've run into this a bit, and there are a few things to consider.
-Is the draft fee a lot for the drafters in question? That is, do they have good jobs? Someone shelling out $ for their one tournament a week will be far more discouraged than the person who would leave the entry fee as a tip at a restaurant.
-Playing against better competition will make them better, so beating them is good for their game.
-Losing all the time is bad for anyone's self esteem. If you have no chance to win a tournament, you will be less likely to keep playing. You might continue, but the odds of you continuing decrease.
I recommend showing up every other week and seeing if that impacts draft turnout. If people stop showing up on "your" week, it's time to take a break for a while. If you give players a chance to see how they're improving, they will be much more eager to play against you.
I'm not used to this decktype, so any improvements would be great, especially some wishboard suggestions
<Scoff> He thinks Volcanic Fallout is a land! <Scoff Scoff>
But seriously, I like the gist of your list. Volcanic Fallout might not be a bad wish target. Do you really need disenchant AND Dismantling Blow? Run the capitalized card. Shattering Spree and probably Smash should also be taken out. STP is much better than Path in this deck, usually the only time we run Path in the wishboard is when we have 4 StP MD, which you do not. I've been testing the Ancestral Visions control deck lately and have been very happy with Fire/Ice. Ajani, however, has been mixed. Rarely does Ajani do as much for me as an Elspeth might, and you will never want two of the things. Your blue count is fine, 25 is well above the minimum for FoW, but I would still drop an Ajani despite the nice interaction with Fire/Ice.
I would test -1 Ajani, -1 FoF, -1 Counterspell for +3 Spell Snare. I'm betting you will be pleasantly surprised.
8 colorless lands are a lot, especially since you don't run Crucible. I know Eternal Dragon ups the colored count, but I would actually drop those for the more powerful StP. So -1/2 Wasteland, -2 Eternal Dragon, -1 FoF/Decree/Elspeth/Ajani/FireIce (probably the 4th Fire/Ice) for +1/2 color mana producers (plains?), +3 StP (4th in the wishboard)
I don't think it's fair to compare combos with this kind of signaling. If someone discovers a particularly powerful interaction between cards, that's not a "loophole." Magic is all about finding new and unexpected card interactions.
Ah, but what about combos that specifically take advantage of rules loopholes? I recall people used Wall of Roots for infinite mana during one tournament due to an odd loophole in the steps. After the tournament the DCI emergency banned it, and as I mentioned earlier Waylay has also been abused due to rules loopholes.
If something is legal, it pays to be aware of it, if only to notice when an opponent is doing it.
'--to find the best drafter, not the person who can best find a loophole in the rules.
But what about when finding and knowing about loopholes is skill-intensive? People play combo decks that exploit loopholes. They used Waylay as a ball lightning. There are all sorts of loopholes in the game that people exploit, and if the rules don't cover them, they're fair game.
I read an article once where a guy wore his Serra Angel shirt to a draft where white was typically underdrafted. On the mana symbol of the shirt he circled the double white. I think he even had a sleeve case with white sleeves that he set down beside himself.
Saying "I'm forcing white" is cheating. Wearing a T-shirt that could possibly imply that? Not cheating, and a neat idea.
Just a note on that math equation: a non-machinable envelope costs .64 cents to ship, not 44. If you just slap one stamp on it the receiver will get billed on occasion. I found that out the hard way.
t is a fact of life. I know we adjust our shipping rates to reflect these fees, our customers pay most of it. They do not complain, but i really dont say add 4 percent for paypal fees. It is very simple to just give a flat shipipng rate, and make sure that covers all of your fees here. Paypal is not that bad by itself, so just add 50 cents to your shipipng costs and remove the paypal percentage charge.
+1
I agree wholeheartedly. Making the customer bring out the calculator to do the math is just bad business. Keep it simple.
Just because it's not against a strict interpretation of the rules doesn't mean you should be doing it. I don't think the outrage is really over the legality--people are using that (mistakenly or not) to make their point.
The actual point is that goes against the spirit of what drafting is supposed to be about.
I'm a little dumbfounded by this post. We have a full page of people going "OMG, CHEATS!" (artistic exaggeration :D) and you don't think that's the main issue here?
What, exactly, is the spirit of drafting supposed to be about? To me, terms like "money draft" or "tournament" imply a certain level of competitiveness. Also, even in the more casual formats of the game, the point is to win. You might draft to kick it with your buddies. So do I. But I also draft to win product, and potentially get good enough to win a top 8 of a sealed PTQ someday.
Oops, should have mentioned that I use Jace over Standstill, similar to this deck:http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28761
But with more lands and creatures, like this:
[CARDS]
15 Island
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
// Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
2 Wake Thrasher
3 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
3 Jace Beleren
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Echoing Truth
4 AEther Vial
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
I've been considering cutting a Mutavault. Rarely do I ever want more than one.
My sb plan for Cbalance has been -2 Etruth, -1 Jitte (unless it runs confidant!), -1 Mutavault, -3 Merfolk Sovereign (strictly worse than the other two lords here.) for +2 B2B, +2 Control Magic, +1 Wipe Away, +2 Misdirection. Two each of the enchantments because you don't want multiples clogging up your hand.
My plans on the play change a bit, as I board in a pair of Stifles and the third B2B instead of control magic and wipe away. With the added tempo I get priority for establishing a lock.
Spell Snare is an excellent card in the format right now, perhaps better than stifle. I recommend testing it out if CB is causing you problems.
One of the reasons I run Jace is because it lets me board out vial against decks like 43land without breaking the deck's synergy, keeping my creature count high when I need to. I also like drawing multiple Jaces more than multiple Standstills, as you can just run down the Jace and play another one.
I board out vials against the black/green aggro decks quite frequently. I lose some combat tricks, to be sure, but overall I want more creatures in my deck so that I can match their goyfs for p/t. I also pull them against burn. Really most decks where there's no fear of countermagic. -vials, +misdirection is actually a boost in tempo, due to the 0 mana cost and instant board-altering potential of misdirection, and a plus in overall card advantage, as multiple misdirections are good while multiple vials are redundant. Six lands in play also makes Vial redundant, but Misdirection actually gets better. I've been considering upping the count in my board to 3.
I've been boarding out vials, stifles, E-truths, and a single Lord of Atlantis for the Lands matchup. I've been happy with bringing in a couple of misdirections to compliment the Back to Basics strategy.
There are actually a few non-blue matchups where I've found myself boarding out vials. I think it's a good move a lot of the time.
af083114
This.
I've been running 2 Thrasher, 2 Sovereigns for the past month in efforts to see which played better. I almost never wished one card was the other. They both have their role in the deck, but due to cost we cannot run playsets of each.
Perhaps a 3-2 split is correct. If your build has 4 mutavaults (instead of 3), Sovereign should probably be the 3x. If Fire/Ice sees a lot of play in your meta, again Sovereign should be the 3x. If your control/thresh decks don't run red, Thrasher starts to look better at the 3-slot.
Also, the recent Andrew Hansen article listed a fish list with 3 Sygg's, which really intrigued me. It lowers the curve of the deck, and provides unblockability/defense. A white splash list should definitely try 2/3 of those with 3+Thrashers and see how it goes.
So if you're not running Stifles, E-Truth looks a lot more attractive, and if you are running Stifles, Wipe Away looks better. Interesting.
I disagree with Darkmindtone's changes. Speed is essential in all formats, but especially one as broken as cube sealed. I recently won a small 8-man with an aggressive GR deck (http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=54240&view=decks*) and made the mistake of not running all the hard-hitting one drops I could have md. I sided in Twinblade Slasher every game. In this format much of the quality removal costs 3+, and most players are focusing their decks around quality (expensive) creatures. A good one drop will usually hit for 4-6 damage. All of a sudden the opponent is pretty close to being burned out, and all before he could get a chance to cast that Silvos in his hand.
Sol Ring does need to be in that MD, though. It drops Juggernaut on turn two and Plow Under on turn three. Sick stuff. Also, I know you probably meant to add it, but Wooded Foothills is missing from your decklist. Seems hot in a RG deck, fetchable Savannah or no.
Sarkan Vol and Duplicant are both excellent ways of turning your opponent's tempo into your tempo, and should compliment your aggressive strategy quite nicely.
Here are the changes I recommend:
-
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Silvos, Rogue Elemental
1 Genesis
While Silvos and Genesis are both game-winners, they both win the game past the time you should have already won. Duplicant, Triskelion, or Crater Hellion are all amazing six drops in this format because they impact the board immediately. Gen/Silvos, however, I would try to trade out for cards that are good all of the time. A high curve will often feel like your deck is forcing you to take mulligans. I made this mistake in the sealed I played in, where I ran Memory Jar over Saproling Burst. Jar wasn't bad, but lost tempo while Saproling Burst would have given me more.
+
Wooded Foothills
Sol Ring
Duplicant
Sarkan Vol
So basically, -thick stuff, +tempo.
While at first it appears that Berserk got a whole lot weaker, don't forget that it can hit that troublesome Soltari Priest that might otherwise go all the way. Even better, it can boost whatever you grab with Sarkan Vol to ensure they never get the creature back! Brutal.
Other cards I'm tempted to take out: Akroma
Other cards I'm tempted to put in: Urza's Rage, Blistering Firecat, Rumbling Slum
In fact, I'm convinced -Akroma, + Slum is a good idea with the changes I already made to the deck.
*Great site for testing constructed formats or simply having fun with Cube sealed or other wacky formats.
I won a game through fogging once. It went something like this:
Him: turn one 8 ETW tokens.
Me: Gah! Drop vial.
Him:swing for eight (12)
Me: Untap, add counter, pass. Chant(fog) him on upkeep, vial in isamaru.
Me: Untap, add counter. Rip Jitte. Play Jitte.
Him: swing for eight. I vial in Grunt, block two tokens (6).
Me: Untap and equip Jitte for the win.
To be fair, there are two time vault decks in that top eight, and one of them doesn't run Tez.
Painters+Grind or Tinker+Colossus, Stifle+Dreadnought, etc... These are the things vintage is made of.
I preferred Gush unrestricted too. MUD was actually fun to play against, a phenomenon I have yet to see duplicated.
A lot of the similarities between the first two decks are due to metagame concerns. They both realized Bob was the best draw engine for the metagame, so they both have a tutorable answer (fire/ice and Darkblast) for their opponent's bob.
Sure, there have been a few lists that do well with the much-more-reasonably-priced Mishra's Factory in place of the disruption lands.
There is no substitution for Jitte, however. You will need at least two of them. Try picking them up through trade. Some people value a beat up Jitte fairly low (around 14-16.)
Aether vials are also a little $$$, but like Jitte they are a format staple and shouldn't decrease in value anytime soon. Best of luck.
-Is the draft fee a lot for the drafters in question? That is, do they have good jobs? Someone shelling out $ for their one tournament a week will be far more discouraged than the person who would leave the entry fee as a tip at a restaurant.
-Playing against better competition will make them better, so beating them is good for their game.
-Losing all the time is bad for anyone's self esteem. If you have no chance to win a tournament, you will be less likely to keep playing. You might continue, but the odds of you continuing decrease.
I recommend showing up every other week and seeing if that impacts draft turnout. If people stop showing up on "your" week, it's time to take a break for a while. If you give players a chance to see how they're improving, they will be much more eager to play against you.
<Scoff> He thinks Volcanic Fallout is a land! <Scoff Scoff>
But seriously, I like the gist of your list. Volcanic Fallout might not be a bad wish target. Do you really need disenchant AND Dismantling Blow? Run the capitalized card. Shattering Spree and probably Smash should also be taken out. STP is much better than Path in this deck, usually the only time we run Path in the wishboard is when we have 4 StP MD, which you do not. I've been testing the Ancestral Visions control deck lately and have been very happy with Fire/Ice. Ajani, however, has been mixed. Rarely does Ajani do as much for me as an Elspeth might, and you will never want two of the things. Your blue count is fine, 25 is well above the minimum for FoW, but I would still drop an Ajani despite the nice interaction with Fire/Ice.
I would test -1 Ajani, -1 FoF, -1 Counterspell for +3 Spell Snare. I'm betting you will be pleasantly surprised.
8 colorless lands are a lot, especially since you don't run Crucible. I know Eternal Dragon ups the colored count, but I would actually drop those for the more powerful StP. So -1/2 Wasteland, -2 Eternal Dragon, -1 FoF/Decree/Elspeth/Ajani/FireIce (probably the 4th Fire/Ice) for +1/2 color mana producers (plains?), +3 StP (4th in the wishboard)
Ah, but what about combos that specifically take advantage of rules loopholes? I recall people used Wall of Roots for infinite mana during one tournament due to an odd loophole in the steps. After the tournament the DCI emergency banned it, and as I mentioned earlier Waylay has also been abused due to rules loopholes.
If something is legal, it pays to be aware of it, if only to notice when an opponent is doing it.
But what about when finding and knowing about loopholes is skill-intensive? People play combo decks that exploit loopholes. They used Waylay as a ball lightning. There are all sorts of loopholes in the game that people exploit, and if the rules don't cover them, they're fair game.
I read an article once where a guy wore his Serra Angel shirt to a draft where white was typically underdrafted. On the mana symbol of the shirt he circled the double white. I think he even had a sleeve case with white sleeves that he set down beside himself.
Saying "I'm forcing white" is cheating. Wearing a T-shirt that could possibly imply that? Not cheating, and a neat idea.
+1
I agree wholeheartedly. Making the customer bring out the calculator to do the math is just bad business. Keep it simple.
I'm a little dumbfounded by this post. We have a full page of people going "OMG, CHEATS!" (artistic exaggeration :D) and you don't think that's the main issue here?
What, exactly, is the spirit of drafting supposed to be about? To me, terms like "money draft" or "tournament" imply a certain level of competitiveness. Also, even in the more casual formats of the game, the point is to win. You might draft to kick it with your buddies. So do I. But I also draft to win product, and potentially get good enough to win a top 8 of a sealed PTQ someday.