Intelligent post. I've had the same thought process. The only reason I haven't tested the card is because sometimes I really want to dig for Howling Mine, and Servitor only helps that if they're attacking. Still, if you're considering Wall of Omens, this card seems superior in most regards, especially if your list has Foundry.
Note: Searing Blaze can hit you if you don't have a creature in play, so Servitor doesn't really turn anything on.
BlackKryptonite: I've lost games to UW, but never matches. UW needs a strong hand, and for Time Sieve to falter. What dead cards of Time Sieves are there? You could argue that Spreading Seas or Angelsong are, but I've found Angelsong to be useful (as mentioned in the article, when UW goes for the kill it does it in a few quick strokes) plus both of these cards cycle. Meanwhile, game one against an unknown opponent are you going to mull the Path, Jace, Day of Judgement, Wall of Omens, three land hand? I think not. Here, none of these cards actually do anything. Not sure what type of Time Sieve player you were playing against or how many games you played, but removing Hulk doesn't stop the Time Sieve player from winning. The UW matchup is won through sharp play and sheer card advantage, nothing more and nothing less.
Befuddlement: I mentioned the Capsules in there somewhere. I like the idea. I like how it gets recurred, and also how Tezzeret can fetch it out. The reason it isn't in the list I put up is because I haven't tested it fully. It is, however, in the PTQ lists at the end, as well as Into the Roil, so both seem like strong options.
Lazychimp: No, I was warding afters. Oh fine yeah you got me.
Benjammm: As I posted in the Sieve forum, I don't think Silence and Seas have any synergy together. If you have the Seas, their ability to play spells is already hindered, decreasing the value of Silence. I tried Chalice and liked it, but decided it didn't do enough and cut it. It makes the strong draws stronger and the weak draws weaker. On paper I agree that it's a harder deck to build. The rewarding part of it is that, since you see more cards than usual, you can tell what's working and what isn't faster. Good luck with your tweaking!
kspaeth123: Repel is usually pretty great. Against RDW or decks with mana critters it's often better than Angelsong. After a certain point it doesn't do enough. I never want more than one, but I'm always happy to see it in my opening seven. And yes, I'll be at MN Regionals. Feel free to say "hi."
This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Investigating Combo: Artifacts in T2. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
There is, however, one difference between the two decks that I completely disagree with: No Silence in the main deck or sideboard. Timed properly, Silence wins games against Jund. With the combination of Silence and Spreading Seas, I would be much more confident in that particular match-up.
erg. I won't say too much, but Silence and Spreading Seas have no synergy with one another. If you have the Seas, their ability to play spells is hindered, and Silence loses power. If you have the Silence, then casting Seas is similar to cycling Angelsong. Any hand with both Silence and Seas without Howling Mine begins to look like a virtual mulligan.
A slight exaggeration, but you get my point. The synergy just isn't there.
Also, not sure what lists people are losing to Mythic with, but if you've been having trouble then yes, Into the Roil is a reasonable option that doubles as an out to a resolved Iona or Pithing Needle.
I don't think we should be running a narrow card like Path when no one is using Meddling Mage. Back in the day, some decks had Teeg, and then path was a necessary evil. Today it's just too narrow. If you devote too many cards to hindering the opponent, you kill the deck's power. Keep the deck strong and it'll serve you well. That's why Spreading Seas is so good here. It slows the opponent while keeping the deck strong.
Put I digress. Check out my article when it goes up tomorrow. A few weeks of nonstop testing, including T4ing a 64 person ML invitational, went into it. At the very least it should make an interesting read.
One giant trade I did once involved about sixty to eighty rares and took up a large section of the table. At one point in the trading, I told the guy that I wanted to hold my intuitions, and he nodded and set them aside. After about twenty more minutes of bartering, he had managed to obscure them under piles of cards I'd agreed to trade. After we both agreed the trade looked fair, he just scooped them all up and walked off.
Lesson learned: If a card isn't in the trade, put it back in the binder ASAP.
All is Dust: You've got one too many plains, cut it for another Island. By the time you want WW, you'll have six lands, and a much greater chance of having either a prism or a kaleidostone in play, which can get you the second white. Jace, however, comes down turn three, and so having double blue early is much more important. Other than that, the list looks pretty good, I ran something really similar until I found something better.
Wall of Omens is not good in this deck, as we don't have enough control elements to take advantage of him. He doesn't do enough against Mono Red, and that's the matchup where he should be doing everything. Perimeter Captain was decent as a 2-of to randomly disrupt some mono red draws, I stole some wins with him, but 4 is too many as at a point you need to just go off and win and they've played enough evasives/straight burn to fireball you out with an earthquake while you sit behind your irrelevant 2nd/3rd captain.
Just go advanced search at the top, then vintage, then under cards "Lodestone Golem." It's a new card, and it can take a bit for new cards to be played in vintage. That it has 13 decks already is a testament to its staple nature. I mean, it's two played cards in one, Juggs+sphere. Not sure what the big revelation is here. Imagine:
0
Artifact
T: sacrifice for three mana of a color of your choice. Target player draws three cards.
I would have used caller of gales instead of either Khalni Gem or Mark of Mutiny. The reason I wouldn't use Khalni Gem is that the deck hasn't that much cards with landfall or a mana base wide to optimize it's effect. Mark of Mutiny is closer, probably I would rather maindecking it anyways but I think Caller of Gales is better in this deck to punch the last points of damage against midrange, very good in a match up with flyers, and can help you to win a race against aggro in a mid-game by chumpblocking and bashing with your minotaurs.
I also would have used Chandra, it's very good in a deck with a manabase that red, and it's ultimate isn't irrelevant at all with the spells you have. It's not that rare to get engaged in a mid/late-game in sealed.
For every other consideration, I would have built the same deck.
It is possible that Khalni Gem was not right for this list, but here was my logic:
1-It accelerates into kicked Rite, Dragon, Glider, Spire Barrage, and the triplicate Torch Slingers.
2-It gives double blue for Rite and Into the Roil while still pumping Molten Ravager.
3-It lets me re-use Soaring Seacliff.
5-The landfall triggers on Glider and Eel.
I contemplated Chandra, and decided that I didn't want to spend six mana to maybe burst lightning something. What red cards am I planning on having in hand when I drop her? Ideally, my creatures are trading off, meaning the only cards in hand should be removal I'm saving, which doesn't make sense to discard to Chandra. If I don't have an extra red card on turn six (likely), then I'm spending six mana on something that doesn't impact the board immediately. Sometimes players are stuck with Sorin Markov in their hands this format is so fast. With Hellkite Charger, I'm hoping to end the game that turn or the turn after, and in the few games I did get the dragon out he was win-more. I can't imagine running Chandra over anything in this deck.
Caller is an interesting idea. I like the thought of him with Molten Ravager, since his ability is blue and Master can hit for so much. However, the deck already has four large flyers, as well as Seacliff to gain flying with a land drop, and plenty of removal/equipment to punch guys through. I'm always hesitant to run a 1/1 for one, and here I think I made the right call.
Ah yes, good question. Feral Contest has been great for me, but I don't run it in every pool I build, and certainly not every deck I draft. However, if you build around it while you're drafting, or if your pool is right for it, the Contest is a house.
The creatures involved are the real trick. It's not going to be good in decks full of Welkin Terns, or Blood Seekers, or even green decks that consistently go Arbor Elf-Greenweaver Druid-Fatty, as the tempo boost is already there. In that situation, another creature for the swarm would be better. However, midrange beatdown lists full of Giant Scorpion-type creatures will benefit from the Contest. Turn one Arbor Elf, turn two Snapping Creeper, turn three Feral Contest is the ideal line.
This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Counting Cats in Zendikar. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
I agree with you that our main disagreement here lies with how playable allies are. I don't think it is possible to try to make an ally deck. I have tried before, but I can never end up with more than 6-7 without significantly weakening my deck. And while I think that 6-7 allies could have very nice synergy, I do not think that this is enough to support a halimar excavator milling strategy. This strategy only works if you can get multiple ondu clerics / shieldmates / excavators- you can't just get one excavator and say that will work. The chances of this strategy working are much lower than you think.
I've done a lot of drafting lately, and I'm convinced that Allies are a lot easier to put together with WW in the mix. Sometimes I have enough, 7-10, to put them together in two colors, even.
I don't think you've been drafting allies correctly. Only running 6-7 is not optimal, seven is the minimum, I think, but having 10-11 allies in the deck strengthens it, not weakens, assuming you have enough of the powerful ones. Muramasu, Raptor, Excavator etc. The trick is that the evaluations of the cards changes with how many allies you have. If I'd drafted 4-5 allies pack one, I'll probably be picking Muramasu over a Burst Lighting in pack two pick three.
both the milling strategy and ally strategy are things that sort of just have to fall into your lap, so having both of them work out is very unlikely. If you can show me consistent results where you have been able to draft this 'archetype' with success, then I will be persuaded. Anecdotal evidence does not work for me.
As someone who has admittadly not been able to get allies to work (though we don't know how many times he has attempted them), I'm not sure why I, the person who has gotten allies to work, should be listening to you on the subject. Seems like negative EV, to me.
Also, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to show you "consistent results" without being "anecdotal" at the same time. But then, impossible or impractical requirements for proof have always been a trademark of poor rhetoric. I'm not going to climb Mt. Everest trying to persuade you, but I will continue to share useful information about the game when I notice it. That is why we're in a mtg forum, right?
You make some fair points. However, we're going to disagree on the level of allies available. WW has fewer cards than Zen, making the cracking of a Excavator more than likely, and if no one else is drafting allies then you can plan on that 1/3 for 1U making it around to you.
[QUOTE=FlyingSpaghettiMonster;/comments/3561178]
But you can't have a plan that says "i'm going to open or get passed hedron crabs and halimar excavators." It just doesn't work that way. If you happen to get crabs, and you happen to get excavators / a fair number of allies, then it can work. But that is not a plan, that is an anomaly.QUOTE]
Sure you can. And, just like "I'm going to force black" doesn't work if others draft all the black cards, the "I'm going to draft allies" plan doesn't work if others pick up all the allies. However, if you get passed a Murasa 5-8 pick pack one, you can be sure allies will still be open in pack three, and, as mentioned above, the less desirable excavator will probably make it into your list if one is opened (likely.) This should inform your draft, even if you don't pick up crabs.
Unless you're arguing that allies won't necessarily get opened in this draft format. Now that is an anomoly. In fact, you should have a 16.7% chance (1 in 6) of cracking an Excavator yourself. Will you see one every draft? No. Can you plan on getting one most of the time? Of course.
Edit: Oh, and saying "We can't all end up like Patrick Chapin" is a bit strange, as it implies that we can't learn from him or develope to that level of skill. In fact, I would use his draft as an example of the effectiveness of the mill plan. Chapin values the archetype in this format, and his magical expertise makes him a valid authority.
Mill will work for you sometimes, and allies will work for you sometimes, but going for both is just asking for trouble if it doesn't work out.
Or it gives you a strong deck even if you aren't passed those excavators. If you look at my list, you could drop green and the crabs and still have a decent URb allies list. Also, if you know what you're doing in ZZW, you can scrape out an aggressive deck if the mill plan falls through. More than one winning deck has left a crab or two in the board, and the difference of two picks rarely destroys an entire draft. If the mill stuff doesn't show, what are you drafting? Good cards, ideally.
You can argue that you shouldn't try and force allies because you don't know if you'll get them or not, but how is that different from arguing that you shouldn't force black cards for the same reason? Does that make BR aggro a non-archetype?
I don't think you should force anything. But you should have a plan going into any draft, and you should be flexible with that plan, willing to adapt it to whatever individual beast that draft becomes.
My first pack had a hedron crab and no other excitement, so I started drafting allies with the hopes of grabbing up an Excavator or two. The Harrows/Explores came very late. While splashing for mana fixing is almost never right, it makes sense with double crab and the refuge to make it work.
This is the first time I've left Geopede in the board, ever.
Upon playing with the deck, I think Paralyzing Grasp might be a better MD choice than the chain reaction. Or Kraken Hatchling. Something to slow down the game to let the power of my deck take over, rather than an odd wrath effect that increases my power unnecessarily. I mean, it performed well, but still seems like a mistake.
Mill Allies is definitely a powerful archetype and one that I'll be looking for in the future.
Note: Searing Blaze can hit you if you don't have a creature in play, so Servitor doesn't really turn anything on.
Befuddlement: I mentioned the Capsules in there somewhere. I like the idea. I like how it gets recurred, and also how Tezzeret can fetch it out. The reason it isn't in the list I put up is because I haven't tested it fully. It is, however, in the PTQ lists at the end, as well as Into the Roil, so both seem like strong options.
Lazychimp: No, I was warding afters. Oh fine yeah you got me.
Benjammm: As I posted in the Sieve forum, I don't think Silence and Seas have any synergy together. If you have the Seas, their ability to play spells is already hindered, decreasing the value of Silence. I tried Chalice and liked it, but decided it didn't do enough and cut it. It makes the strong draws stronger and the weak draws weaker. On paper I agree that it's a harder deck to build. The rewarding part of it is that, since you see more cards than usual, you can tell what's working and what isn't faster. Good luck with your tweaking!
kspaeth123: Repel is usually pretty great. Against RDW or decks with mana critters it's often better than Angelsong. After a certain point it doesn't do enough. I never want more than one, but I'm always happy to see it in my opening seven. And yes, I'll be at MN Regionals. Feel free to say "hi."
erg. I won't say too much, but Silence and Spreading Seas have no synergy with one another. If you have the Seas, their ability to play spells is hindered, and Silence loses power. If you have the Silence, then casting Seas is similar to cycling Angelsong. Any hand with both Silence and Seas without Howling Mine begins to look like a virtual mulligan.
A slight exaggeration, but you get my point. The synergy just isn't there.
Also, not sure what lists people are losing to Mythic with, but if you've been having trouble then yes, Into the Roil is a reasonable option that doubles as an out to a resolved Iona or Pithing Needle.
I don't think we should be running a narrow card like Path when no one is using Meddling Mage. Back in the day, some decks had Teeg, and then path was a necessary evil. Today it's just too narrow. If you devote too many cards to hindering the opponent, you kill the deck's power. Keep the deck strong and it'll serve you well. That's why Spreading Seas is so good here. It slows the opponent while keeping the deck strong.
Put I digress. Check out my article when it goes up tomorrow. A few weeks of nonstop testing, including T4ing a 64 person ML invitational, went into it. At the very least it should make an interesting read.
Lesson learned: If a card isn't in the trade, put it back in the binder ASAP.
Wall of Omens is not good in this deck, as we don't have enough control elements to take advantage of him. He doesn't do enough against Mono Red, and that's the matchup where he should be doing everything. Perimeter Captain was decent as a 2-of to randomly disrupt some mono red draws, I stole some wins with him, but 4 is too many as at a point you need to just go off and win and they've played enough evasives/straight burn to fireball you out with an earthquake while you sit behind your irrelevant 2nd/3rd captain.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33948
Just go advanced search at the top, then vintage, then under cards "Lodestone Golem." It's a new card, and it can take a bit for new cards to be played in vintage. That it has 13 decks already is a testament to its staple nature. I mean, it's two played cards in one, Juggs+sphere. Not sure what the big revelation is here. Imagine:
0
Artifact
T: sacrifice for three mana of a color of your choice. Target player draws three cards.
Not that gratuitous, but you get the point.
It is possible that Khalni Gem was not right for this list, but here was my logic:
1-It accelerates into kicked Rite, Dragon, Glider, Spire Barrage, and the triplicate Torch Slingers.
2-It gives double blue for Rite and Into the Roil while still pumping Molten Ravager.
3-It lets me re-use Soaring Seacliff.
5-The landfall triggers on Glider and Eel.
I contemplated Chandra, and decided that I didn't want to spend six mana to maybe burst lightning something. What red cards am I planning on having in hand when I drop her? Ideally, my creatures are trading off, meaning the only cards in hand should be removal I'm saving, which doesn't make sense to discard to Chandra. If I don't have an extra red card on turn six (likely), then I'm spending six mana on something that doesn't impact the board immediately. Sometimes players are stuck with Sorin Markov in their hands this format is so fast. With Hellkite Charger, I'm hoping to end the game that turn or the turn after, and in the few games I did get the dragon out he was win-more. I can't imagine running Chandra over anything in this deck.
Caller is an interesting idea. I like the thought of him with Molten Ravager, since his ability is blue and Master can hit for so much. However, the deck already has four large flyers, as well as Seacliff to gain flying with a land drop, and plenty of removal/equipment to punch guys through. I'm always hesitant to run a 1/1 for one, and here I think I made the right call.
The best thing about it besides killing a creature on turn four and gaining tempo is that it buffs up your Snapping Creepers, Oran-Rief Recluses, and Nissa's Chosens.
The creatures involved are the real trick. It's not going to be good in decks full of Welkin Terns, or Blood Seekers, or even green decks that consistently go Arbor Elf-Greenweaver Druid-Fatty, as the tempo boost is already there. In that situation, another creature for the swarm would be better. However, midrange beatdown lists full of Giant Scorpion-type creatures will benefit from the Contest. Turn one Arbor Elf, turn two Snapping Creeper, turn three Feral Contest is the ideal line.
I've done a lot of drafting lately, and I'm convinced that Allies are a lot easier to put together with WW in the mix. Sometimes I have enough, 7-10, to put them together in two colors, even.
I don't think you've been drafting allies correctly. Only running 6-7 is not optimal, seven is the minimum, I think, but having 10-11 allies in the deck strengthens it, not weakens, assuming you have enough of the powerful ones. Muramasu, Raptor, Excavator etc. The trick is that the evaluations of the cards changes with how many allies you have. If I'd drafted 4-5 allies pack one, I'll probably be picking Muramasu over a Burst Lighting in pack two pick three.
As I pointed out--using actual math and not the "anecdotal evidence" you're both using and condemning--this is the definition of an anomoly.
As someone who has admittadly not been able to get allies to work (though we don't know how many times he has attempted them), I'm not sure why I, the person who has gotten allies to work, should be listening to you on the subject. Seems like negative EV, to me.
Also, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to show you "consistent results" without being "anecdotal" at the same time. But then, impossible or impractical requirements for proof have always been a trademark of poor rhetoric. I'm not going to climb Mt. Everest trying to persuade you, but I will continue to share useful information about the game when I notice it. That is why we're in a mtg forum, right?
[QUOTE=FlyingSpaghettiMonster;/comments/3561178]
But you can't have a plan that says "i'm going to open or get passed hedron crabs and halimar excavators." It just doesn't work that way. If you happen to get crabs, and you happen to get excavators / a fair number of allies, then it can work. But that is not a plan, that is an anomaly.QUOTE]
Sure you can. And, just like "I'm going to force black" doesn't work if others draft all the black cards, the "I'm going to draft allies" plan doesn't work if others pick up all the allies. However, if you get passed a Murasa 5-8 pick pack one, you can be sure allies will still be open in pack three, and, as mentioned above, the less desirable excavator will probably make it into your list if one is opened (likely.) This should inform your draft, even if you don't pick up crabs.
Unless you're arguing that allies won't necessarily get opened in this draft format. Now that is an anomoly. In fact, you should have a 16.7% chance (1 in 6) of cracking an Excavator yourself. Will you see one every draft? No. Can you plan on getting one most of the time? Of course.
Edit: Oh, and saying "We can't all end up like Patrick Chapin" is a bit strange, as it implies that we can't learn from him or develope to that level of skill. In fact, I would use his draft as an example of the effectiveness of the mill plan. Chapin values the archetype in this format, and his magical expertise makes him a valid authority.
Or it gives you a strong deck even if you aren't passed those excavators. If you look at my list, you could drop green and the crabs and still have a decent URb allies list. Also, if you know what you're doing in ZZW, you can scrape out an aggressive deck if the mill plan falls through. More than one winning deck has left a crab or two in the board, and the difference of two picks rarely destroys an entire draft. If the mill stuff doesn't show, what are you drafting? Good cards, ideally.
You can argue that you shouldn't try and force allies because you don't know if you'll get them or not, but how is that different from arguing that you shouldn't force black cards for the same reason? Does that make BR aggro a non-archetype?
I don't think you should force anything. But you should have a plan going into any draft, and you should be flexible with that plan, willing to adapt it to whatever individual beast that draft becomes.
This is the first time I've left Geopede in the board, ever.
Upon playing with the deck, I think Paralyzing Grasp might be a better MD choice than the chain reaction. Or Kraken Hatchling. Something to slow down the game to let the power of my deck take over, rather than an odd wrath effect that increases my power unnecessarily. I mean, it performed well, but still seems like a mistake.
Mill Allies is definitely a powerful archetype and one that I'll be looking for in the future.
// Lands
1 [ZEN] Akoum Refuge
1 [ZEN] Kazandu Refuge
1 [WWK] Khalni Garden
1 [M10] Swamp (1)
6 [M10] Island (1)
5 [M10] Forest (1)
3 [M10] Mountain (1)
// Creatures
2 [ZEN] Hedron Crab
2 [ZEN] Murasa Pyromancer
2 [ZEN] Highland Berserker
2 [ZEN] Seascape Aerialist
1 [ZEN] Bala Ged Thief
1 [WWK] Jwari Shapeshifter
1 [WWK] Agadeem Occultist
1 [WWK] Halimar Excavator
1 [WWK] Akoum Battlesinger
// Spells
2 [ZEN] Into the Roil
1 [ZEN] Gigantiform
2 [ZEN] Harrow
1 [WWK] Chain Reaction
1 [WWK] AEther Tradewinds
2 [WWK] Explore
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [M10] Forest (1)
SB: 1 [M10] Mountain (1)
SB: 1 [ZEN] Paralyzing Grasp
SB: 1 [ZEN] Plated Geopede
SB: 2 [ZEN] Soaring Seacliff
SB: 1 [ZEN] Teetering Peaks
SB: 1 [ZEN] Magma Rift
SB: 1 [ZEN] Expedition Map
SB: 1 [ZEN] Runeflare Trap
SB: 1 [ZEN] Kraken Hatchling
SB: 1 [ZEN] Shatterskull Giant
SB: 1 [ZEN] Beast Hunt
SB: 1 [ZEN] Quest for Ancient Secrets
SB: 1 [WWK] Smoldering Spires
SB: 1 [WWK] Mysteries of the Deep
SB: 1 [WWK] Everflowing Chalice
SB: 1 [WWK] Grotag Thrasher
SB: 1 [WWK] Roiling Terrain