@ Reprobate: Thanks and no, I didn't. If you don't see Survival in your opening grip, a mulligan draws you six cards while a brainstorm draws you three. One of those three might be your saving grace, or it might just be more madness crap. Meanwhile, there are a lot of fine hands that get there without Survival, but Brainstorm has the nasty tendency of making crap hands look keepable. While the card can be worked in, I would much rather spend my mana on impacting the board. Also remember that the spell slots are very tight, as the deck needs a critical mass of creatures in order to fuel survival and vengevines.
There are exactly 5 cards in the deck that you played at the GP that do not contribute to that explosive gameplan. Trygon Predator and Umezawa's Jitte. In fact, both of them seem to be doing the opposite then supporting an explosive start.
So, why not goyf instead of either of those - the blue count correct? If so why not +3 goyf and +3 (something out of the blue... lets say brainstorm) instead? Some actual reasoning behind that or was it just really big fear of countertop?
What deck does this pile want Goyf against? If goyf is larger than vengevine, you're playing the deck wrong. It doesn't contribute anything explosive whatsoever. No utility. Nothing larger than your opponent's creatures (also goyf.) No special synergy with any other element of the deck. Meanwhile, when the Survival fails to resolve, I would rather have something with some actual utility than a blank 3/4 on an already crowded two slot.
Noble Hierarch, Trygon Predator, Umezawa's Jitte, Daze, three lands is a perfectly fine hand, and the deck produces many similar ones.
Meanwhile, if I have Trygon Predator, Survival, Stifle, Force of Will, three lands, I'm not exactly wishing that Predator was a Goyf, get my drift?
Just watch the coverage of the round nine feature match. It's the only time I tutored for Predator all day, and simply having it in my hand to drop on turn two would've been much more explosive. I like the pause in the commentating when they realize I don't have goyf in the list (of course he's fetching goyf...,) and an almost silent acknowledgment of how awesome predator was there.
There will be tournaments where Trygon Predator looks really lackluster. This was not one of those tournaments. I expected gobbos, zoo, countertop, and merfolk, and waded through them for two days, but couldn't have done it had I not tweaked the list accordingly.
Same with Saito's deck. In the end, you can bicker about the rightness of maindeck standstills and spellpierces, and the splash of black making the manabase weaker, but in the end he had a finely crafted deck for the metagame, and that's why he won while all the other folk lists got destroyed.
The competition for deck space between the pressures of the Survival combo and the Force of Will blue count are too great.
Naw dude, you can fit Goyfs in there. Then maybe splash red for REBs out of the board, maybe some MD Firespouts, and the Saito version of Merfolk becomes a lot easier. Of course, with all those spells the creature count is too low to support Survival, so we might as well throw in Countertop to slow the opponent down more, making up for the loss of explosive starts. Here's a new version of the list:
Main Deck
60 cards
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
22 lands
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
6 creatures
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
3 Firespout
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
32 other spells
I had a mediocre pool, but I stitched together a BW deck with a decent amount of removal to go 4-0-1 and take it down. My last round opponent split just to be a good guy, it seems, as he had the best sealed deck I've ever seen. 5 Ophidians, double Sleep, enough scry/card draw to get the sleeps every game, foil baneslayer, two more giant angels, and a handful of solid removal. Like, if he'd opened that at a GP, he'd be 9-0, easy. Absolutely insane.
Sup Alex. Very much agreed on the Bant matchups, and yeah, forked bolt is pretty good right now. Last FNM I took a homebrew turbo bant deck and went 4-1, losing to mythic 1-2. I think I'll overload my sideboard with paths and bant charms, next time.
As for Time Sieve, I've been thinking about running Zealous Persecution to punish the accelerant-heavy draws of Mythic and maybe steal more games I have no right winning with thopter foundry. I know from playing master of etherium alongside foundry in the old ext (rip), that suddenly doubling your attacking power really messes with the opponent's math. Still, it's just theory at this point.
I think there's a distinct difference between stalling by playing and stalling by not playing. Sideboarding in the Firewalkers and generally trying to get the game go long is a completely viable and fair tactic, as long as you're not stalling with unnecessary game decisions and things like that.
Viable and fair, but not effective. Had I brought in the Firewalkers, what was I taking out? Bringing in any non artifact hinders the combo. Thus, if I brought in Firewalkers against Jund, I would be all-in on the drawing plan, and denied the ability to simply win. It has negative EV unless I'm actively trying to stall.
@dragonstorm81: I can understand where you're coming from, but I was running on a good four hours of car sleep and was looking over my opponent's board. All the land in my hand was flipped to the front, and I dropped the frontmost card. I'm not usually one to drop cards, but I'm not one to misrepresent things, either.
The American Nightmare: from my experience, while NLB kills a few turns slower, it also cycles through more cards. While Mythic might have an O-Ring or Negate or two, NLB can consistently find multiple pieces of disruption while providing a fast clock.
Drawmeomg: The point was mostly that specific tutors complexify the game, and random tutors simplify it, which I think you understood. I've heard the deckbuilding argument before, but when Owen Turtenwald adds two copies of Pentad Prism to what is otherwise a stock Jund list, you know the deckbuilding aspect of cascade is becoming a little stale. Don't get me wrong, I love that Hypergenesis (RIP!) couldn't play Chrome Mox, but most people playing the deck didn't make that decision, but they benefit from it. Meanwhile, people misplay skill intensive cards like Jace and Vampiric Tutor all the time.
And maybe you're right. I think my main problem is that with cascade, people can make the wrong decision and be rewarded, or make the right decision and be punished. Sure, that's always a factor in magic, but it still irks me as it increases variance unnecessarily, and I hope that Wizards takes the game in the other direction soon.
This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Investigating Combo: A National Qualifier Report. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
Erm, Thopter Foundries, as noted, help against Pulse, and are the "backup plan" against RDW. You bring in Scullers, Vedalken Outlanders, and other junk, board out the combo, and try and win with bad creatures and thopters, usually by surviving an alpha strike with Angelsong, and killing them by taking 2-3 turns in a row from time warp and one time sieve activation, and bashing them.
Actually, Thopter Foundries are my main plan against RDW ;).
Don't board out the combo. Open the Vaults has added value with Thopter Foundry. Go -4 Howling Mine, +4 Kor Firewalker. I tend to bring in either a couple of Negates or a Dispeller's Capsule as well, depending on the version of RDW I'm playing against.
As a backup win condition, Foundries can be difficult to win with through disruption. Last night I got paired against vampires twice, and had to fight through turn two Vampire Hexmage (shutting off Tezz as a win con), a slew of Inquisition of Kozilek's, and turn five Mind Sludges. I took them down, but two of the games I had to use the full sixty cards to win via Foundry tokens. Balancing your life, your opponent's life, and the right number of Howling Mines so that you draw the gas you need but keep from decking yourself makes for some of the more exhausting--but rewarding--games I've ever played.
Note that, when attacking into a swarm of Nighthawks, or even a Baneslayer, you can sacrifice whatever tokens they block to Time Sieve so that they don't gain life.
Plus, pretty much every older MTG site in history had the same thing written by multiple people at some point.
So, yeah. Not saying that your article is awful blah blah or anything like that, but I really doubt you need the Sun Tzu Crutch to say whatever it is you're trying to say.
Most of us that read a lot of articles are weary of someone using Tzu to seem wiser, or to make their content seem more meaningful than it actually is. Bryndon's series, however, is closer to intertextual criticism, and it's specific enough (EDH!) and deep enough to work. By going through, line by line, Bryndon is really making this idea his own.
It's good to be skeptical, but I recommend giving the benefit of the doubt before judging, and especially before going "the Simpsons did it" all over the internet.
Hats off to the most ambitious series of EDH strategy articles known to man.
Yes, you will never need 8 counterspells in the side. This deck sees so many cards, there really is no need. I'd go -4 Flashfreeze, -2 Into the Roil, +1 Kor Firewalker, +1 Dispeller's Capsule, +3 Executioner's Capsule, +1 Thopter Foundry. This'll lead to better results against RDW and Poly.
Jund:
-4 Angelsong, +4 Flashfreeze (4 Flashfreeze and 4 Spreading Seas should be enough to slow down Jund enough... hopefully.)
Oof. Have you tested this? A control deck this is not, and flashfreeze isn't very good when they lead with a turn one leech. Some matches they'll have two games on the play. What's your plan then? Keep the angelsongs in. -2 Kaleidostone, +2 Negate is fine. If they show you Thought Hemorrhage and maybe Jund Charm in G2, it's fine to go -1 Angelsong and -1 something else for the extra couple Negates, but pulling out all the fogs just to die to the typical stupid creature rush isn't very effective.
Control:
-4 Angelsong, -2 Spreading Seas, +4 Negate, +2 Into the Roil (Pretty straightforward here.)
-4 Seas, +4 Negate. (if this sb, -1 Angelsong and -1 Kaleidostone for the ItR). For my build, I continue with -1 Day of Judgment, -1 Thopter Foundry for +1 Dispeller's Capsule and +1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
RDW:
-3 Angelsong, -4 Spreading Seas, +4 Flashfleeze, +3 Kor Firewalker (??? Lil' confused on what to do here, I feel like I need more.)
Ahh! If they go turn one Guide, turn two Geopede, turn three Ball Lightning, what would you rather have, an Angelsong or a Flashfreeze? What about multiple Bushwackers? Leave the freezes in the board where they don't belong. I go -4 Spreading Seas, -2 Howling Mine, +4 Kor Firewalker, +1 Thopter Foundry, +1 Day of Judgment (depending on the prevalence of summons or not, etc). Sometimes I'll bring in 1-2 Negate or the Dispeller's Capsule, if I have a good read on them.
Thank you for your article (sry for my english i'm french) - just a question : i would like to speed the combo, i think add 3 * amulet of vigor, and maybe remove kaleidostone - any comment ? thx
No need to apologize (mon Francais ne pas bon!). One mistake people might make when picking up a combo deck is to start twiddling with it immediately. I admit that I'm guilty of the same thing. Note this monstrosity: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34455
However, good tweaking requires heavy playtime with a deck. Amulet of Vigor, for example, has been suggested and tested, and I wasn't surprised at its failure. Borderposts fit the curve early (no turn one drops) and late (hardcast). In neither of these uses do we need the Posts to be untapped. Meanwhile, we see less cards without the Kaliedostones, actually slowing the combo.
Hmm. Don't your Open the Vaults bring their Needles right back? If they needle Sieve, aren't you going to have to essentially pay 6WWW for Open the Vaults? God help you if they get a turn with multiple Mines so they can discard more Needles, that way they can have one Needle name Sieve and another name Dispeller's Capsule itself. >_<;
I'm not sure what's wrong with this picture. The opponent needling Dispeller's Capsule sounds awesome!
In the NQ I had a RDW player name thopter foundry (the correct call). When I drew it, the Capsule straight up won me the game.
I'm confused. Without Hulks, what do you mean by "swinging in"? How do you turn Manabarbs against RDW?
Thopter Foundry and Kor Firewalker can bring them out of spell casting range very fast and sudden-like. Say they're at 17 from cracking some fetches and you have a firewalker in play. He drops a hells thunder (14). Now he flashes the thing back (9). We angelsong off of artifact mana. The game stalls until we get a second firewalker, and a swing+time warp removes all his outs. This is a loose example, but something like that has happened often enough to make it worth mentioning. While a dispeller's capsule can answer a Barbs quite handily, playing through it with firewalker+foundry is my plan A.
What do you think of the lists that run Wall of Omens instead of Spreading Seas?
Bad. Wall of Omens is effective against some hands and really terrible against others. Thopter Foundry is always insane against them. Run the better card and have a good matchup against both Jund and RDW.
Although I went 1-1-1 against Jund in the NQ, the loss was something of a fluke. I swept everything else, including two RDW lists and a Polymorph, so I think a tournament report might be instructive. I'll try and have one up soon.
Flowbeat: Another 8x Time Warp list? Now you guys are just funning with me. ;). If the Warps are actually Angelsongs, then it's a solid build for an unknown meta.
Agreed on the mill out. I think if you mill yourself out with this deck, either you got Hemorrhaged / Sacramented, or you're doing it wrong. I have had a game where I was Hemorrhaged twice - for Hulks and then Tezzerets - and then milled out because I didn't have enough cards left in my library to draw to pump Jace to ultimate.
Funny story. I just finished testing some matches against the new Jund deck, and in game three of one match my opponent Hemorrhaged me twice, once for OTV and once for Tezz. He dealt with my first batch of thopter tokens, as well as the Foundry, and my cards were running out, so I knew Jace wouldn't do it anymore. The second Foundry was my third to last card, and I had exactly enough artifacts to block his lethal and kill him on my last turn. Knowing how many Mines to keep in play to draw enough gas without decking yourself is an important skill to develop with this deck, but a rewarding one.
So, how's the 1 & 1 Jace plan working out? Because I've been looking for a viable decklist to test my singleton Worldwake money shot in. Do you typically find yourself Brainstorming, or bouncing stuff away? Vs. which decks would you prefer to Fateseal first vs. Brainstorm first? And with Angelsong to cover once you untap, is it ever worth Unsummoning with him?
So far I've liked it. I've bounced a few creatures (Usually Knight of the Reliquary while on the play,) and had people scoop to the threat of his ultimate, but he was never necessary for the kill. I've yet to Fateseal an opponent, and the only time it has come up is when I start doing it to myself mid combo.
I can't think of a time you don't want to brainstorm first with this deck. If you look at a card, and then they pulse it, you're at equal value. If you brainstorm and they lightning bolt it, you've gained value.
Beleren, on the other hand, almost always goes up against Jund, but down against a lot of other decks.
Best thing about Exec Cap is how it baits out their counters and Into the Roils, one by one, until they're all gone.
I play it a little differently. I'll run one out turn one as well, but after that point I just let it sit there. Sometimes I'll just fetch out all my extra caps with Tezzeret before I start doing anything. The threat of capping something off is generally greater than actually doing it.
Post board this goes from the combo mirror to the control mirror, and in the control mirror inevitability is king. Don't use a resource if you don't have to.
I'm curious about what you think of the possibility of running Vedalken Outlander over Firewalker. Assuming you play either of them on turn 2, you miss out on about 4-5 lifegain, but both serve the same function and one of them recurs with OtV / provides sac fodder for your Sieve so you can go off. I have also tested 4x Dragon's Claw in the board and can report that resolving a pair of Claws is game unless they find & resolve Manabarbs. Even then I can still sometimes win. But Manabarbs is usually good night for us. So, what do you bring in vs. that card? Negate?
Your questions kind of answer each other, as Firewalker is much better against Barbs-type aggression. The RDW deck is so fast that trying to race them (where the artifact status of vedalken/claws might matter) is futile. Step 1, survive. This deck has the inevitability, so concentrate on staying alive. For example, if they have the fairly common start of turn one Goblin Guide, turn two Plated Geopede, how much life would a Dragon's Claw save you in comparison to a Firewalker? Remember, you need to survive them casting eight spells before DC's ability becomes better than a Rest for the Weary.
With MD Foundry, artifact mana, and sideboard Firewalkers, I've actually won against Manabarbs more than I've lost, and I've tested a lot of post sideboard games. Watch the life totals very carefully. In a lot of games, there is a point where the Sieve player can start swinging in and dropping Warp effects to Manabarbs lock out the RDW player with his own hate card!
Bringing in Negate against RDW doesn't seem right. What are you going to pull for it? I could see OTV, but the card gains some value against RDW with lists that run foundry. Meanwhile, the card does nothing against their best hands, which include some number of Goblin Guides. That card is much more of an issue.
Against vamps I value Howling Mine a bit more and the plainswalkers quite a bit less, but that's about all the advice I can give you. I haven't been testing against them for Regionals because I expect Jund to hold them down.
I'm under the impression that the extra borderposts provide extra targets for Time Sieve and Tezzeret. Is this the correct view?
Yes.
JunioRcmf: Agree about Jund Charm. Seas is good against it and, unlike double blightning, we can actually play around the card. I wouldn't run Quest, as I've never milled out yet, though I've gotten down to my last draw. Usually if it looks like I might deck myself, say in the under twenty cards range, I just start sacking the Howling Mines instead of baubles. Crisis averted =). Although, playing with Seas adds another element to consider, as Open brings dead Seas back too.
kspaeth123: I think Beleren is better for lists that A-have Hulk, so another win condition isn't needed, or B-have Angelsong to protect it early. Since your list has neither, I strongly agree on switching to the new Jace.
So far, I haven't liked the Missionarys all that much, but we'll see. The Day of Judgments have been reasonably good, and I have felt an improvement against Conscription Mythic after adding them in. The -Seas+Capsule plan seems to work fine, but it's not particularly impressive. The matchup is a lot more winnable, but I think the advantage is with the Conscription Mythic deck.
It seems that my infatuation with Hulk is beginning to fade. Foundry, while slower, is a fine win condition and adds value where Hulk would just cycle. Being able to beat RDW g1 feels great.
Executioner's Capsule changes who has inevitability in the Poly matchup. The difference is incredible. Now, instead of having to try and combo off faster through walls of countermagic, the deck can sit back and pick up steady advantages like it might against UW tapout. If the Poly deck blinks first, they probably won't be able to stop you from comboing. If they don't apply pressure, however, the deck will eventually set up a win no matter how many Negates the Poly player has. The match as a whole is probably still in Poly's favor thanks to a very strong game one, but it feels much closer. Just don't expect to win against a turn three Poly on the draw without a Capsule.
I'm hoping the new Jund deck doesn't take off instantly. The manabase is much more resilient to Seas.
KirdKitty: I said it varies wildly (between 40-60 and 60-40, depending on lists, experience, and who wins the die roll), so in a game between an average zoo player and an average TS deck you're probably right. If you have an experienced player (someone who knows order of operations, how to play around pulse, and which hands to keep) with a Spreading Seas version, the match will be in TS's favor. Jund Charm is a fine sideboard card, but it's relatively easy to play around and means that Jund isn't dropping threats to leave mana open. Also, it weakens the turn four cascade.
Kasreyn: You're right. I was confused from reading too many rules articles. I know that you can choose an illegal creature target for a Searing Blaze redirected by a Wild Richochet, but I didn't know you needed two legal targets to hard cast the thing.
What deck does this pile want Goyf against? If goyf is larger than vengevine, you're playing the deck wrong. It doesn't contribute anything explosive whatsoever. No utility. Nothing larger than your opponent's creatures (also goyf.) No special synergy with any other element of the deck. Meanwhile, when the Survival fails to resolve, I would rather have something with some actual utility than a blank 3/4 on an already crowded two slot.
Noble Hierarch, Trygon Predator, Umezawa's Jitte, Daze, three lands is a perfectly fine hand, and the deck produces many similar ones.
Meanwhile, if I have Trygon Predator, Survival, Stifle, Force of Will, three lands, I'm not exactly wishing that Predator was a Goyf, get my drift?
Just watch the coverage of the round nine feature match. It's the only time I tutored for Predator all day, and simply having it in my hand to drop on turn two would've been much more explosive. I like the pause in the commentating when they realize I don't have goyf in the list (of course he's fetching goyf...,) and an almost silent acknowledgment of how awesome predator was there.
http://ggslive.blip.tv/file/3950638/
There will be tournaments where Trygon Predator looks really lackluster. This was not one of those tournaments. I expected gobbos, zoo, countertop, and merfolk, and waded through them for two days, but couldn't have done it had I not tweaked the list accordingly.
Same with Saito's deck. In the end, you can bicker about the rightness of maindeck standstills and spellpierces, and the splash of black making the manabase weaker, but in the end he had a finely crafted deck for the metagame, and that's why he won while all the other folk lists got destroyed.
Naw dude, you can fit Goyfs in there. Then maybe splash red for REBs out of the board, maybe some MD Firespouts, and the Saito version of Merfolk becomes a lot easier. Of course, with all those spells the creature count is too low to support Survival, so we might as well throw in Countertop to slow the opponent down more, making up for the loss of explosive starts. Here's a new version of the list:
Main Deck
60 cards
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
22 lands
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
6 creatures
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
3 Firespout
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
32 other spells
Sideboard
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Firespout
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Meddling Mage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Pierce
15 sideboard cards
As for Time Sieve, I've been thinking about running Zealous Persecution to punish the accelerant-heavy draws of Mythic and maybe steal more games I have no right winning with thopter foundry. I know from playing master of etherium alongside foundry in the old ext (rip), that suddenly doubling your attacking power really messes with the opponent's math. Still, it's just theory at this point.
Viable and fair, but not effective. Had I brought in the Firewalkers, what was I taking out? Bringing in any non artifact hinders the combo. Thus, if I brought in Firewalkers against Jund, I would be all-in on the drawing plan, and denied the ability to simply win. It has negative EV unless I'm actively trying to stall.
@dragonstorm81: I can understand where you're coming from, but I was running on a good four hours of car sleep and was looking over my opponent's board. All the land in my hand was flipped to the front, and I dropped the frontmost card. I'm not usually one to drop cards, but I'm not one to misrepresent things, either.
^Oh, and I like Burek's examples.
The American Nightmare: from my experience, while NLB kills a few turns slower, it also cycles through more cards. While Mythic might have an O-Ring or Negate or two, NLB can consistently find multiple pieces of disruption while providing a fast clock.
Drawmeomg: The point was mostly that specific tutors complexify the game, and random tutors simplify it, which I think you understood. I've heard the deckbuilding argument before, but when Owen Turtenwald adds two copies of Pentad Prism to what is otherwise a stock Jund list, you know the deckbuilding aspect of cascade is becoming a little stale. Don't get me wrong, I love that Hypergenesis (RIP!) couldn't play Chrome Mox, but most people playing the deck didn't make that decision, but they benefit from it. Meanwhile, people misplay skill intensive cards like Jace and Vampiric Tutor all the time.
And maybe you're right. I think my main problem is that with cascade, people can make the wrong decision and be rewarded, or make the right decision and be punished. Sure, that's always a factor in magic, but it still irks me as it increases variance unnecessarily, and I hope that Wizards takes the game in the other direction soon.
Actually, Thopter Foundries are my main plan against RDW ;).
Don't board out the combo. Open the Vaults has added value with Thopter Foundry. Go -4 Howling Mine, +4 Kor Firewalker. I tend to bring in either a couple of Negates or a Dispeller's Capsule as well, depending on the version of RDW I'm playing against.
As a backup win condition, Foundries can be difficult to win with through disruption. Last night I got paired against vampires twice, and had to fight through turn two Vampire Hexmage (shutting off Tezz as a win con), a slew of Inquisition of Kozilek's, and turn five Mind Sludges. I took them down, but two of the games I had to use the full sixty cards to win via Foundry tokens. Balancing your life, your opponent's life, and the right number of Howling Mines so that you draw the gas you need but keep from decking yourself makes for some of the more exhausting--but rewarding--games I've ever played.
Note that, when attacking into a swarm of Nighthawks, or even a Baneslayer, you can sacrifice whatever tokens they block to Time Sieve so that they don't gain life.
Most of us that read a lot of articles are weary of someone using Tzu to seem wiser, or to make their content seem more meaningful than it actually is. Bryndon's series, however, is closer to intertextual criticism, and it's specific enough (EDH!) and deep enough to work. By going through, line by line, Bryndon is really making this idea his own.
It's good to be skeptical, but I recommend giving the benefit of the doubt before judging, and especially before going "the Simpsons did it" all over the internet.
Hats off to the most ambitious series of EDH strategy articles known to man.
Yes, you will never need 8 counterspells in the side. This deck sees so many cards, there really is no need. I'd go -4 Flashfreeze, -2 Into the Roil, +1 Kor Firewalker, +1 Dispeller's Capsule, +3 Executioner's Capsule, +1 Thopter Foundry. This'll lead to better results against RDW and Poly.
Oof. Have you tested this? A control deck this is not, and flashfreeze isn't very good when they lead with a turn one leech. Some matches they'll have two games on the play. What's your plan then? Keep the angelsongs in. -2 Kaleidostone, +2 Negate is fine. If they show you Thought Hemorrhage and maybe Jund Charm in G2, it's fine to go -1 Angelsong and -1 something else for the extra couple Negates, but pulling out all the fogs just to die to the typical stupid creature rush isn't very effective.
-4 Seas, +4 Negate. (if this sb, -1 Angelsong and -1 Kaleidostone for the ItR). For my build, I continue with -1 Day of Judgment, -1 Thopter Foundry for +1 Dispeller's Capsule and +1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
Ahh! If they go turn one Guide, turn two Geopede, turn three Ball Lightning, what would you rather have, an Angelsong or a Flashfreeze? What about multiple Bushwackers? Leave the freezes in the board where they don't belong. I go -4 Spreading Seas, -2 Howling Mine, +4 Kor Firewalker, +1 Thopter Foundry, +1 Day of Judgment (depending on the prevalence of summons or not, etc). Sometimes I'll bring in 1-2 Negate or the Dispeller's Capsule, if I have a good read on them.
No need to apologize (mon Francais ne pas bon!). One mistake people might make when picking up a combo deck is to start twiddling with it immediately. I admit that I'm guilty of the same thing. Note this monstrosity: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34455
However, good tweaking requires heavy playtime with a deck. Amulet of Vigor, for example, has been suggested and tested, and I wasn't surprised at its failure. Borderposts fit the curve early (no turn one drops) and late (hardcast). In neither of these uses do we need the Posts to be untapped. Meanwhile, we see less cards without the Kaliedostones, actually slowing the combo.
Possibly, but I still like, you know, taking advantage of their screw. Maybe by using the broken card they can't Pulse right away. =)
I'm not sure what's wrong with this picture. The opponent needling Dispeller's Capsule sounds awesome!
In the NQ I had a RDW player name thopter foundry (the correct call). When I drew it, the Capsule straight up won me the game.
Thopter Foundry and Kor Firewalker can bring them out of spell casting range very fast and sudden-like. Say they're at 17 from cracking some fetches and you have a firewalker in play. He drops a hells thunder (14). Now he flashes the thing back (9). We angelsong off of artifact mana. The game stalls until we get a second firewalker, and a swing+time warp removes all his outs. This is a loose example, but something like that has happened often enough to make it worth mentioning. While a dispeller's capsule can answer a Barbs quite handily, playing through it with firewalker+foundry is my plan A.
Bad. Wall of Omens is effective against some hands and really terrible against others. Thopter Foundry is always insane against them. Run the better card and have a good matchup against both Jund and RDW.
Although I went 1-1-1 against Jund in the NQ, the loss was something of a fluke. I swept everything else, including two RDW lists and a Polymorph, so I think a tournament report might be instructive. I'll try and have one up soon.
Funny story. I just finished testing some matches against the new Jund deck, and in game three of one match my opponent Hemorrhaged me twice, once for OTV and once for Tezz. He dealt with my first batch of thopter tokens, as well as the Foundry, and my cards were running out, so I knew Jace wouldn't do it anymore. The second Foundry was my third to last card, and I had exactly enough artifacts to block his lethal and kill him on my last turn. Knowing how many Mines to keep in play to draw enough gas without decking yourself is an important skill to develop with this deck, but a rewarding one.
So far I've liked it. I've bounced a few creatures (Usually Knight of the Reliquary while on the play,) and had people scoop to the threat of his ultimate, but he was never necessary for the kill. I've yet to Fateseal an opponent, and the only time it has come up is when I start doing it to myself mid combo.
I can't think of a time you don't want to brainstorm first with this deck. If you look at a card, and then they pulse it, you're at equal value. If you brainstorm and they lightning bolt it, you've gained value.
Beleren, on the other hand, almost always goes up against Jund, but down against a lot of other decks.
A tutorable answer to Pithing Needle that can also hit Oblivion Rings seems good. Glad you're testing out the deck =).
I play it a little differently. I'll run one out turn one as well, but after that point I just let it sit there. Sometimes I'll just fetch out all my extra caps with Tezzeret before I start doing anything. The threat of capping something off is generally greater than actually doing it.
Post board this goes from the combo mirror to the control mirror, and in the control mirror inevitability is king. Don't use a resource if you don't have to.
Your questions kind of answer each other, as Firewalker is much better against Barbs-type aggression. The RDW deck is so fast that trying to race them (where the artifact status of vedalken/claws might matter) is futile. Step 1, survive. This deck has the inevitability, so concentrate on staying alive. For example, if they have the fairly common start of turn one Goblin Guide, turn two Plated Geopede, how much life would a Dragon's Claw save you in comparison to a Firewalker? Remember, you need to survive them casting eight spells before DC's ability becomes better than a Rest for the Weary.
With MD Foundry, artifact mana, and sideboard Firewalkers, I've actually won against Manabarbs more than I've lost, and I've tested a lot of post sideboard games. Watch the life totals very carefully. In a lot of games, there is a point where the Sieve player can start swinging in and dropping Warp effects to Manabarbs lock out the RDW player with his own hate card!
Bringing in Negate against RDW doesn't seem right. What are you going to pull for it? I could see OTV, but the card gains some value against RDW with lists that run foundry. Meanwhile, the card does nothing against their best hands, which include some number of Goblin Guides. That card is much more of an issue.
Against vamps I value Howling Mine a bit more and the plainswalkers quite a bit less, but that's about all the advice I can give you. I haven't been testing against them for Regionals because I expect Jund to hold them down.
Yes.
Yes.
JunioRcmf: Agree about Jund Charm. Seas is good against it and, unlike double blightning, we can actually play around the card. I wouldn't run Quest, as I've never milled out yet, though I've gotten down to my last draw. Usually if it looks like I might deck myself, say in the under twenty cards range, I just start sacking the Howling Mines instead of baubles. Crisis averted =). Although, playing with Seas adds another element to consider, as Open brings dead Seas back too.
kspaeth123: I think Beleren is better for lists that A-have Hulk, so another win condition isn't needed, or B-have Angelsong to protect it early. Since your list has neither, I strongly agree on switching to the new Jace.
Update, with the PTQ successes taken to heart:
3 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
7 Island
2 Swamp
Spells
4 Time Warp
4 Howling Mine
3 Time Sieve
4 Mistvein Borderpost
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
2 Kaleidostone
4 Open the Vaults
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Angelsong
4 Prophetic Prism
1 Jace Beleren
4 Spreading Seas
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Day of Judgment
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Day of Judgment
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Negate
3 Executioner's Capsule
1 Dispeller's Capsule
2 Lone Missionary
So far, I haven't liked the Missionarys all that much, but we'll see. The Day of Judgments have been reasonably good, and I have felt an improvement against Conscription Mythic after adding them in. The -Seas+Capsule plan seems to work fine, but it's not particularly impressive. The matchup is a lot more winnable, but I think the advantage is with the Conscription Mythic deck.
It seems that my infatuation with Hulk is beginning to fade. Foundry, while slower, is a fine win condition and adds value where Hulk would just cycle. Being able to beat RDW g1 feels great.
Executioner's Capsule changes who has inevitability in the Poly matchup. The difference is incredible. Now, instead of having to try and combo off faster through walls of countermagic, the deck can sit back and pick up steady advantages like it might against UW tapout. If the Poly deck blinks first, they probably won't be able to stop you from comboing. If they don't apply pressure, however, the deck will eventually set up a win no matter how many Negates the Poly player has. The match as a whole is probably still in Poly's favor thanks to a very strong game one, but it feels much closer. Just don't expect to win against a turn three Poly on the draw without a Capsule.
I'm hoping the new Jund deck doesn't take off instantly. The manabase is much more resilient to Seas.
For reference:
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Raging Ravine
4 Savage Lands
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
3 Mountain
3 Swamp
Other Stuff
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Borderland Ranger
4 Plated Geopede
4 Putrid Leech
4 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Sprouting Thrinax
2 Bituminous Blast
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Blightning
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Sedraxis Specter
1 Island
I haven't tested it yet, but I'm guessing it's correct to bring in Firewalkers against them. Posted in: Articles
Kasreyn: You're right. I was confused from reading too many rules articles. I know that you can choose an illegal creature target for a Searing Blaze redirected by a Wild Richochet, but I didn't know you needed two legal targets to hard cast the thing.