So you got hit by a god hand -- Duress plus 3 Blightnings--yeah that sucks but that far from proves the power of the deck. Not being able to keep Mind Sludge? One Blightning is not going to force you to lose Mind Sludge. Grim Discovery is your answer to Blightning--pitch a land, and a creature, get them back.
Deathmark out of the side board for Disfigure kills all the green stuff you are worried about even if they are pumped. If Oran is going to be common in Jund builds then add land destruction to the sideboard. Has added use in 5 CC match ups as well as WW which are running Emeria.
Their Oran is not being used prior to T5, if it is then they are slowing down their deck and playing right into your Mind Sludge. They really not going to drop their BBE on T4 so they can drop it T5 with an Oran boost? Better hope they made every land drop--or its headed to the bin. You have Duress as well to protect your Mind Sludge. Sadistic Sacraments Oran away.
And if they are siding out removal to bring in their control cards, then all the better they are making my creatures better. If they side out creatures to bring in control cards then all the better, I have Duress and Sadistic Sacrament post board, plus an additional Mind Sludge.
They use their Jund Charm to remove their graveyard, rather than mine so I can Grim Discovery back threats and land, better for me. Plus they are not using it to pump a creature they have on board or to use as removal if I have some knights and hexmages on the board.
Yeah Jund is not a cake walk. Lamenting about how this deck's game versus Jund is pointless--no deck right now has Jund over a barrel--otherwise everyone would be playing it. This deck has answers to what Jund wants and likes to do. And right now that is all you can ask for.
I have to try sadistic sacrament against jund... I usually side it against control and there it works wonder... especially because every time I draw it I can kick it and win the game...
the reason I'm personally lamenting about performances against jund is mostly because I find the other relevant match ups not beeing such a big problem if they are a problem at all... and therefore it is in that direction that the deck needs to be tuned
I will also try to find place for the grim discoveries since they seems to be so good against that deck
previously I played 2 and was happy with them but when I had to find place for maelstrom pulses I removed both of them... together with the 4th nighthawk and the 4th duress
Even if they cascade, you have a hand full of stuff and they are top decking the rest of the game. And keep in mind that Mind Sludge is probably sending some of sick recovery ability to the bin. Heck my favorite Mind Sludge was sending 3 BBEs to the bin--don't ask me why he did not play one on T4, would still have gotten 2 of them.
With Sign and Blood and Grim Discovery you can have serious card advantage. Every time I have played Jund and resolved a Mind Sludge, even without a Haunting Echoes, have never been worried as I have 5-7 cards in hand. With Sign in Blood and Grim Discovery I have better card advantage, can recycle Gatekeepers, Castles, or whatever creature they may have pulsed.
I have my threats in hand (Sorin, Bloodwitch) or on board in the form of Gargoyle Castle. They now have to draw an answer to those threats. If they do, kudos to them, I ll ride my deck's card advantage to their ability to top deck one of their remaining cascade spells. And if they start rebulding their hand, their is always another chance of them being sludged again. Not saying this match up is easy but it is far from a serious problem.
Post Sludge, every card you have in hand is a threat they have to answer as well--the only difference is their answers are not in their hand, and they are reacting based on whatever they draw. It is not like you have dead cards in this match up.
the fact is, that they also play discard and sometimes you cannot keep mind sludge in hand... main deck they have blightning and post sideboard they add duresses... and all of them are a real pain (I had a game where my opponent did duress, blightning, blightning, blightning)
also, post sideboard I take out disfigures because my friends play with oran-rief and this makes the game so much more difficult... 3/3 leeches, 4/3 BBEs, 4/4 thrinaxes with 2/2 tokens and 5/5 dragons...
usually it ends up that they sacrifice BBE/saprolings to gatekeepers, nighthawks die to either thrinaxes or bolts and bloodwitches to terminates/pulses...
I guess I need some serious test against cascade to understand what cards are really valuable...
another note: if they have jund charm they can basically counter echoes...
I just came from another small tournament with another disappointing result: 2-3... this time however I lost to 2 junds and a grixis control (because of echoes + thought hemorrage) while winning against vampires and boros...
I know that most of you don't consider it MBC but just try to splash 4 maelstrom pulses... the mana base is not hurt because of it:
I think the gain from pulse is so much greater than the loss of 1 castle... just give it a try and see for yourselves!
I still think that we have no solution against Jund though... and at the moment I see no way of turning that match up in our favor... every card in their deck is basically a problem for us... and I still do not understand how you can say that mind sludge is effective... they have a capacity for recovery that is sick... even if they have no hand, basically every card that they draw is a threat that require at least one of ours (thrinax, BBE, dragon, blightning, stag,...)
One of the big variations we seem to have is in our finishers. Sorin is pretty much a beast in and of himself, but a single big creature is always great. Nightmare has come up, as has Nyaxthid, both of which have their benefits. Bloodwitch seems to be a favorite, most notably due to the fact that she is immune to doomblade, path, and lightning bolt, with the mini drain life effect as a cherry on top.
I run three Ob Nixilises, which I normally play as a 6 drop, hitting for three at least on the turn I drop him and possibly attacking for 9 (plus another three damage) if I can drop a seventh land. I like him because he mitigates the damage of late game mana flood, making otherwise useless late game swamps work for me. I've found that normally by that late in the game I've killed pretty much all their blockers as well, or at least enough for a Nighthawk or Hexmage to slip in while they chump the giant demon with their top decked creatures. Downside is he is legendary, can get instantly killed by a lightning bolt, and doesn't benefit from any swamps played before he hits the field. I do run the bloodwitches in the side however, and would side Ob out in a second against a deck that can consistantly kill him.
Not sure what else is there to consider, but I will say that anyone who runs the Bloodchief of Ghet is crazy.
I don't see how Bloodchief is worse than nightmare... for a bit less of P/T and evasion you get the potential to kill larger creatures that come late game... and evasion should not be really a problem since we should already have killed all of their small creatures and if not we still have some disfigures or other stuff for them... Kalitas is just maybe a bit less powerful but more versatile finisher... and it basically dies to the same removals
basically the same argument holds for Ob although he can be easier to kill since if you do not have a fetch land he dies to bolt... either in response to the trigger when you play a land on your turn or in his turn when he cannot play a land...
moreover Bloodchief is the one that requires less land commitment to maximize its impact (nightmare wants swamps -> gargoyle castles hurt a bit there; ob needs 8 fetches and 4 grim discoveries at least and eventually also terramorphic expanses...)
did you test a lot? if you only play one match you cant just conclude "duress/mindsludge dont help"
I probably played a bit more than dozen games of which 3-4 with sideboard...
pre-sideboard I never drew echoes or liliana to tutor but I had the impression that with them it would be an easy win...
post-SB I took in 1 sadistic sacrament, 1 additional echoes, 1 more sludge (still better than removal...) and 4 hexmages taking out 4 disfigures and 3 tendrils (I kept 1 just in case I needed some life when he tried to banefire)
the fact is that with 4 worldy council and 4 ponder my friend always seemed to find the cards that he needed... also after a mind sludge drawing them, a time warp or a naya charm meant that he was back in business... and duress t1 taking out ascension was almost as useless...
post-SB he had something like 4 negate and 2 spell pierce that I also needed to deal with in order to have sadistic sacrament/haunting echoes resolve
once he also managed to charge ascension 3 times and play a second one (I drew 2 hexmages)
I'm pretty sure that if I can resolve echoes or sacrament the game is over but I never managed to get them or an opening for them... on the occasions that he was tapped out I "only" had mind sludge but he almost always got back in game...
the problem with discard is that ascension still has time to recover while against jund and its blightning he did not have that luxury (we played also 2-3 games jund vs pyromancer ascension)
at the moment I'm evaluating the addition of 1 forest and 4 maelstrom pulses because it seems to solve so many of our problems (ie enchantments mainly)... still it is no solution against jund...
Anyone tried Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet ? It seems like good card advantage and beatings at the same time to me.
Actually I added that card yesterday in place of an infest (since it did not perform too well). I still have to observe results though because I played only against pyromancer's ascension combo where I lost most of the games... either because my opponent is very lucky or the deck is more consistent than it looks... mind sludge and duress did almost nothing... my only solution preboard is to be the agressive deck...
Gargoyle Castle: I played with 2 of them and got screwed a couple of times... because I was missing the 2nd or 3rd swamp... but the times I had the gargoyle in play it was great even if I used it mostly defensively and almost never as finisher
I think I will lower the count to 1 for the moment because having 1 swamp and 1 castle in your opening hand is really not something you want... even on the draw
Deck thinning: someone mentioned again playing terramorphic for deck thinning... I think it was already proved that it does not have a noticeable effect. Moreover, even if it did, it is not what we need... lowering the probability of drawing lands on turn 1-3 means increasing the probability of not playing sludge t5...
I think that if we play fetches, it's because we want to run the grim discovery engine so that we also avoid missing land drops...
Liliana Vess: I think she's one of the best cards we have because of her versatility...
she can tutor that t6 mind sludge + duress against control, echoes after sludge or against aggro after you killed many of their threats. She can also work as scepter of fugue after mind sludge and by the time she arrives you should already have board control so that attacking her is often not an option
Haunting Echoes: as a 1-of that can be tutored by liliana haunting echoes has been a great card against both aggro and control.
Sadistic Sacrament: I wouldn't run them MD unless you have a control heavy environment... and even there haunting echoes does a better job
As a SB option though it can be great mainly because if you kick and resolve it they are dead... but it is also helpful to remove cards like ascensions that did not come in t2-3, shrouded sphinxes and other cards that we almost cannot handle if they arrive
so... I played in this small tournament we organized for testing ideas...
I went 2-3 winning against a landfall ramp deck (ob, knight of reliquary,...) and the UWR planeswalker control. I lost against 2 vampires and 1 soldiers.
I also played afterwards against RW landfall and won 4-1 I think
I still do not get why exactly I lost to vampires... I was unlucky but still... against the 1st I lost game 1 to 4 bloodghasts and game 3 because I only had 1 disfigure, 1 nighthawk and 1 hauting echoes as business spells...
the other round I lost to multiple nocturni (he played something like 3 in a row and then took 1 from graveyard via grim discovery)
but enough with the whining...
the MVP of the deck where the planeswalkers (both Liliana and Sorin) and the worst cards where IMO the 2 MD infest (4 disfigures, 4 gatekeepers, 4 nighthawks, 4 tendrils and 2 sorin where enough)
I never felt the need for the consume spirit that almost anyone seems to consider a must...
on sadistic sacrament: I tried 1 sideboard and against the planeswalker control it was really strong since if you are in a position where you can handle the planeswalker in play you have all the time in the world to kick it and win the game by removing all win conditions (like for example kicked rite of replication and sphinx of jwar isle that are otherwise difficult to handle)
planeswalkers: I played Liliana mainly for her tutoring ability that can be used multiple times but against control making your opponent discard was also really helpful. Sorin was there mainly as multiple removal on one card, I never used his 2nd ability, even with my opponent at around 30 life. I used his ultimate once against vampires but I think it was not really necessary since I had complete control over the game
Third, if you resolve a mind sludge you should win. period.
Mind Sludge is good but not that strong that it wins game alone... against a deck with Jace, howling mines or heavy on cascade, 1 mind sludge is often not sufficient... at least this is my experience
My bad, I thought it was like R/U/W ascension/walker build..
4 color planeswalkers control? interesting.. They might even have Nicol Bolas(who is a house in this format).... How's their mana base?
my friend didn't play with nicol bolas and his mana base looked like it could reliably play cruel ultimatum turn 7-8ish (but he also had 4 jace and 4 esper charm to draw)
BTW, this weekend I have a small standard tournament and I'll play my version of MBC.
I guess I'll play against all sorts potentially good decks and not just jund...
I'll post my impressions/results if anyone is interested
Hexmages and needles are wonderful here.. Malakir bloodwitch is immune to almost everything they have as well
well... bloodwitches were not actually that good since I played against terminate... but I agree that in general they are really strong unless terminate becomes the removal of choice over path to exile...
I played yesterday against a deck that could probably be a new incarnation of cruel control but it now looks more like a planeswalker control (jace, ajani vengeant, liliana, elspeth) with cruel ultimatum.
The MVP cards were obviously Mind Sludge + Haunting Echoes but also Sorin (because the deck had almost no solution against him and he's excellent in keeping 2-3 opposing planeswalkers in line :D) and Liliana
I have to say that sometimes 1 mind sludge does not feel enough (usually when they have jace in play) and because of this I felt liliana was also strong
I also never felt the need for consume spirit and therefore I'm still questioning that card... I had some problem without sorin against ajani doing his ultimate... but against a control that basically only plays negate as counter I'd play hexmage over consume spirit without hesitation... or even a 3rd sorin
Hm, maybe because when you draw it in a late game, you can deal last 6-8 damage to your oponent?
well... I always felt that when I'm at that point of the game, one of two things happened: either I lost or I'm in total control and I do not need to burn my opponent (because I have a bloodwitch or sorin usually)
I just prefer to use that slot for something else that helps me gaining control of the game rather than having more win conditions (and it is still a "partial" win condition since it just helps you win faster)
I'm playing with both liliana and sorin and I find both of them amazing
liliana is mainly used to set up your next draws, her first ability is also good against decks that play jace (or even howling mines), even after a mind sludge
sorin is also really strong as it plays as removal, win condition and also helps disfigures that maybe in lategame seem to become less important
what I do not understand is why consume spirit is so good... I never needed it and it seems to me that as a removal is much worse than tendrils, as a finisher it's too small and as a wild card is not good enough in any of the above mentioned roles... even as a planeswalker killer we already have hexmage that looks stronger to me (even against luminarch ascension...)
I haven't played against Cascade yet, but I can see where you're coming from. A lot of decks like that just require you to play Tendrils and the ilk to keep your head above water, and just play to win before they can beat you.
I've had few problems with mill. You play out creatures and pressure them--Don't let them play solitaire and just Mill you out, make them waste turns on your guys and such. Not playing Fetchlands really slows them down, and you can play Hexmage to deal with Jace, or you can play Consume Spirit, or Sorin...I play Sadistic Sacrament out of the Board to deal with Archive Traps. Not having to rely on them playing one or making them discard one and then playing Echoes on turn 5 (as opposed to turn 3) seems better to me. Even then, Mind Funeral should hurt you more than Archive Trap does. I can usually rip a few Traps out of their hand before turn 5. If they want to play it at the end of my fifth turn, they're going to be screwed because I just played a bomb and they needed to counter it. If they tap out to play it on their fifth turn, I resolve one of those aforementioned bombs and I win the game. If you have any good cards they need to counter, you're going to set them back a turn or two and you can only hope to capitalize on the tempo. Basically, If they tap out in the early game to make you mill, you punish them by playing Vampire Nighthawk or Gatekeeper and knock away at their life and make less work for your finisher. Mind Funeral does just as much as Archive Trap on Average, I've found, and it screws me a few times because it always gets four lands. On turn three, honestly, I usually wanted a few of those lands. However, my deck loves/hates me and my opponents get about six cards on average (if it's not one of those awesome four land piles that I often seem to get). Just remember that mill decks apply little to no pressure to the board or to your hand. If you can control either one, you can win with little effort. If they wait until the end of the game to mill you, you can make them discard all of their mill.
I guess the mill we are working on is a bit different... it's just WU and it's light on counter...
but the fact that it also plays trapmaker's snare means that the mill deck can easily draw multiple archive trap
it seems to me that MBC is simply too slow (maybe also because it seems I never draw mind sludge when I need it...)
I have to try sadistic sacrament against jund... I usually side it against control and there it works wonder... especially because every time I draw it I can kick it and win the game...
the reason I'm personally lamenting about performances against jund is mostly because I find the other relevant match ups not beeing such a big problem if they are a problem at all... and therefore it is in that direction that the deck needs to be tuned
I will also try to find place for the grim discoveries since they seems to be so good against that deck
previously I played 2 and was happy with them but when I had to find place for maelstrom pulses I removed both of them... together with the 4th nighthawk and the 4th duress
the fact is, that they also play discard and sometimes you cannot keep mind sludge in hand... main deck they have blightning and post sideboard they add duresses... and all of them are a real pain (I had a game where my opponent did duress, blightning, blightning, blightning)
also, post sideboard I take out disfigures because my friends play with oran-rief and this makes the game so much more difficult... 3/3 leeches, 4/3 BBEs, 4/4 thrinaxes with 2/2 tokens and 5/5 dragons...
usually it ends up that they sacrifice BBE/saprolings to gatekeepers, nighthawks die to either thrinaxes or bolts and bloodwitches to terminates/pulses...
I guess I need some serious test against cascade to understand what cards are really valuable...
another note: if they have jund charm they can basically counter echoes...
I know that most of you don't consider it MBC but just try to splash 4 maelstrom pulses... the mana base is not hurt because of it:
I think the gain from pulse is so much greater than the loss of 1 castle... just give it a try and see for yourselves!
I still think that we have no solution against Jund though... and at the moment I see no way of turning that match up in our favor... every card in their deck is basically a problem for us... and I still do not understand how you can say that mind sludge is effective... they have a capacity for recovery that is sick... even if they have no hand, basically every card that they draw is a threat that require at least one of ours (thrinax, BBE, dragon, blightning, stag,...)
I don't see how Bloodchief is worse than nightmare... for a bit less of P/T and evasion you get the potential to kill larger creatures that come late game... and evasion should not be really a problem since we should already have killed all of their small creatures and if not we still have some disfigures or other stuff for them... Kalitas is just maybe a bit less powerful but more versatile finisher... and it basically dies to the same removals
basically the same argument holds for Ob although he can be easier to kill since if you do not have a fetch land he dies to bolt... either in response to the trigger when you play a land on your turn or in his turn when he cannot play a land...
moreover Bloodchief is the one that requires less land commitment to maximize its impact (nightmare wants swamps -> gargoyle castles hurt a bit there; ob needs 8 fetches and 4 grim discoveries at least and eventually also terramorphic expanses...)
I probably played a bit more than dozen games of which 3-4 with sideboard...
pre-sideboard I never drew echoes or liliana to tutor but I had the impression that with them it would be an easy win...
post-SB I took in 1 sadistic sacrament, 1 additional echoes, 1 more sludge (still better than removal...) and 4 hexmages taking out 4 disfigures and 3 tendrils (I kept 1 just in case I needed some life when he tried to banefire)
the fact is that with 4 worldy council and 4 ponder my friend always seemed to find the cards that he needed... also after a mind sludge drawing them, a time warp or a naya charm meant that he was back in business... and duress t1 taking out ascension was almost as useless...
post-SB he had something like 4 negate and 2 spell pierce that I also needed to deal with in order to have sadistic sacrament/haunting echoes resolve
once he also managed to charge ascension 3 times and play a second one (I drew 2 hexmages)
I'm pretty sure that if I can resolve echoes or sacrament the game is over but I never managed to get them or an opening for them... on the occasions that he was tapped out I "only" had mind sludge but he almost always got back in game...
the problem with discard is that ascension still has time to recover while against jund and its blightning he did not have that luxury (we played also 2-3 games jund vs pyromancer ascension)
at the moment I'm evaluating the addition of 1 forest and 4 maelstrom pulses because it seems to solve so many of our problems (ie enchantments mainly)... still it is no solution against jund...
Actually I added that card yesterday in place of an infest (since it did not perform too well). I still have to observe results though because I played only against pyromancer's ascension combo where I lost most of the games... either because my opponent is very lucky or the deck is more consistent than it looks... mind sludge and duress did almost nothing... my only solution preboard is to be the agressive deck...
I think I will lower the count to 1 for the moment because having 1 swamp and 1 castle in your opening hand is really not something you want... even on the draw
Deck thinning: someone mentioned again playing terramorphic for deck thinning... I think it was already proved that it does not have a noticeable effect. Moreover, even if it did, it is not what we need... lowering the probability of drawing lands on turn 1-3 means increasing the probability of not playing sludge t5...
I think that if we play fetches, it's because we want to run the grim discovery engine so that we also avoid missing land drops...
Liliana Vess: I think she's one of the best cards we have because of her versatility...
she can tutor that t6 mind sludge + duress against control, echoes after sludge or against aggro after you killed many of their threats. She can also work as scepter of fugue after mind sludge and by the time she arrives you should already have board control so that attacking her is often not an option
Haunting Echoes: as a 1-of that can be tutored by liliana haunting echoes has been a great card against both aggro and control.
Sadistic Sacrament: I wouldn't run them MD unless you have a control heavy environment... and even there haunting echoes does a better job
As a SB option though it can be great mainly because if you kick and resolve it they are dead... but it is also helpful to remove cards like ascensions that did not come in t2-3, shrouded sphinxes and other cards that we almost cannot handle if they arrive
I went 2-3 winning against a landfall ramp deck (ob, knight of reliquary,...) and the UWR planeswalker control. I lost against 2 vampires and 1 soldiers.
I also played afterwards against RW landfall and won 4-1 I think
I still do not get why exactly I lost to vampires... I was unlucky but still... against the 1st I lost game 1 to 4 bloodghasts and game 3 because I only had 1 disfigure, 1 nighthawk and 1 hauting echoes as business spells...
the other round I lost to multiple nocturni (he played something like 3 in a row and then took 1 from graveyard via grim discovery)
but enough with the whining...
the MVP of the deck where the planeswalkers (both Liliana and Sorin) and the worst cards where IMO the 2 MD infest (4 disfigures, 4 gatekeepers, 4 nighthawks, 4 tendrils and 2 sorin where enough)
I never felt the need for the consume spirit that almost anyone seems to consider a must...
on sadistic sacrament: I tried 1 sideboard and against the planeswalker control it was really strong since if you are in a position where you can handle the planeswalker in play you have all the time in the world to kick it and win the game by removing all win conditions (like for example kicked rite of replication and sphinx of jwar isle that are otherwise difficult to handle)
planeswalkers: I played Liliana mainly for her tutoring ability that can be used multiple times but against control making your opponent discard was also really helpful. Sorin was there mainly as multiple removal on one card, I never used his 2nd ability, even with my opponent at around 30 life. I used his ultimate once against vampires but I think it was not really necessary since I had complete control over the game
Mind Sludge is good but not that strong that it wins game alone... against a deck with Jace, howling mines or heavy on cascade, 1 mind sludge is often not sufficient... at least this is my experience
my friend didn't play with nicol bolas and his mana base looked like it could reliably play cruel ultimatum turn 7-8ish (but he also had 4 jace and 4 esper charm to draw)
BTW, this weekend I have a small standard tournament and I'll play my version of MBC.
I guess I'll play against all sorts potentially good decks and not just jund...
I'll post my impressions/results if anyone is interested
well... bloodwitches were not actually that good since I played against terminate... but I agree that in general they are really strong unless terminate becomes the removal of choice over path to exile...
The MVP cards were obviously Mind Sludge + Haunting Echoes but also Sorin (because the deck had almost no solution against him and he's excellent in keeping 2-3 opposing planeswalkers in line :D) and Liliana
I have to say that sometimes 1 mind sludge does not feel enough (usually when they have jace in play) and because of this I felt liliana was also strong
I also never felt the need for consume spirit and therefore I'm still questioning that card... I had some problem without sorin against ajani doing his ultimate... but against a control that basically only plays negate as counter I'd play hexmage over consume spirit without hesitation... or even a 3rd sorin
well... I always felt that when I'm at that point of the game, one of two things happened: either I lost or I'm in total control and I do not need to burn my opponent (because I have a bloodwitch or sorin usually)
I just prefer to use that slot for something else that helps me gaining control of the game rather than having more win conditions (and it is still a "partial" win condition since it just helps you win faster)
liliana is mainly used to set up your next draws, her first ability is also good against decks that play jace (or even howling mines), even after a mind sludge
sorin is also really strong as it plays as removal, win condition and also helps disfigures that maybe in lategame seem to become less important
what I do not understand is why consume spirit is so good... I never needed it and it seems to me that as a removal is much worse than tendrils, as a finisher it's too small and as a wild card is not good enough in any of the above mentioned roles... even as a planeswalker killer we already have hexmage that looks stronger to me (even against luminarch ascension...)
I guess the mill we are working on is a bit different... it's just WU and it's light on counter...
but the fact that it also plays trapmaker's snare means that the mill deck can easily draw multiple archive trap
it seems to me that MBC is simply too slow (maybe also because it seems I never draw mind sludge when I need it...)