If Rahl isn't in Jobie's clan we at least know that Jobie wasn't an infiltrator. Still, this leaves a decent chance of partial infiltration. I don't know where to go from here though.
We can't know Jobie wasn't an infiltrator even if Rahl posts. There is no absolute truth here. Any one of us could have lied, and many of us have motivation to lie. The mafia and any neutrals probably did not tell us the whole truth. Still, I'm glad you're not writing of infiltrators completely.
@Enigma91: Good of you to show up. If memory serves, you were a part of Shaman mafia so I know you won't go for any of this soft claiming nonsense.
For now... unvote, VOTE Abandon Hope on a hunch. I dont really care if this goes anywhere, just feel like throwing out a vote.
Sensing weakness sgdre? It's a little late for random voting. Do you have anything solid behind this vote? I occurs to me that as soon as I tried to let things cool down, tried to let them go your way even though I disagree, you voted for me. Do you think you can get a free kill for the mafia because I won't fight back? I thought your actions just might be results of opinionation, but now I am convinced you're mafia.
@Everyone else: Please realise this is not townish behavior. Vote for sgdre until he is lynched or claims. His actions mark him to a degree that merits a lynch.
I dont really understand any logical reason for not wanting the claim to happen.
Heh. That much is obvious. I've given my best shot at explaining my disaproval of this claim. For my reasoning see post 92. It is also obvious that my arguments cannot help you see the light. I could repeat myself often as you do, but what would that accomplish? If there is anyone elso who could make my logic clearer, please do. If this is simply a contest of wills, I concede. You're stubborness in pushing for this claim is greater than my stubborness against it. I am content to refuse to participate in the claiming.
Abandon Hope, your argument seems to be that discovering the mafia was in a clan with townies will cause the town to mistrust their clanmates. Frankly if others in my clan can be mafia I don't want to trust them implicitly.
You're right, that is part of my argument, but not all of it. A claim in Jobies clan will not resolve the issue of trust among clanmates. If anything it will convolute it. Trusting your clanmates or not is your own decision, and nothing anyone says will resolve that.
Quote from Treigit »
Therefor, I think we should discover info regarding the number of clans and sizes before the day ends too. While I'm normally opposed to mass claims, soft or otherwise, I think this will be invaluable to us at a latter stage and, as I say, meaningless if the mafia has a chance to discuss it first.
The mafia arn't going to stand for census. We arn't going to get accurate numbers with this claim. We won't know who is lying, we will get inacuracies. The mafia know who is lying and will get accurate information. It will be the end. A mass claim will lead to the destruction of the town, even if it's a soft claim. It's a really bad idea.
@Chimpanzee: The inspection after a Jobie claim is wasted as it is almost guranteed to turn up townie. I think we should take our chances elsewhere. As for the Project Mayhem thing, they are Project Mayhem, this probably isn't anything. Anyhow, you seem less suspicous than at first, so UnFOS:Chimpanzee.
Perhaps you are not understanding what will happen if Jobie'sclan mate claims. Will you trust him blindly? If you will, there is an easy way for the mafia to ingratiate themselves with the town. If you don't trust them how will you know what they tell you to be true? They might as well remain silent for all the good it would do you.
Then there is the cops action. I doubt touchable mafia will make this claim. For all of us to be sure though, the cop will have to reveal their identity, and I'm sure you see why that is bad. By requesting a claim from an unknown source you are creating a safe haven for a Godfather, wasting the cops time, and possibly endangering the cop, not to mention wasting the cop's time.
Quote from sgdre »
Also, I dont see what I am assuming, or what I am putting in peoples mouths.
You put words in other's mouths when you assign them a claim for remaining silent. In this case that claim is "not Jobie's clanmember." I thought that was obvious, forgive me for not elaborating.
I've seen these kind of situations lead to devestating results when the mafia uses them correctly. I think it's been mentioned already, but Shaman mafia was an excelent example of that. I ask that you not think only of action, but of reactions as well. Where does revealing this info lead? What is the worst that could happen? Is the risk worth it?
In this case, the risk of a well position godfather, the delay in the cop's job of finding mafia, and lack of resolution should the unknown clanmember claim is too negative to proceed. Requesting the claim is not justified.
Well then. Jobie's Clanmates should not claim.
I can type with big letters too.:)
The issue isn't the information the mafia have on the claimee, but the effect the claim has on the town and the rest of the game. We don't want to give mafia power, and that is what this claim could do.
Mass claims are very dangerous. Mods create their games so that mass claims will backfire. You can't be serious about one.
Putting words in other peoples mouths is bad, and assuming is bad. It leads to incorrect conclusions, and the mafia use this to destroy the town.
Every idea in your previous two posts reeks of scummieness. I was going to exercise restraint with my votes, but you deserve to be lynched for this. Vote:sgdre.
What? Are you saying that we don't want the SK to claim? Because no SK in their right mind will claim SK. I think you may be getting a SK and a townie vig confused. SKs are no on our side. Vigs are.
I'm almost insulted. Check the posts I cited. Chimpanzee is calling for Jobie's clanmates to come forward. That is the claim I oppose. I can see how you could be confused; I changed topics between paragraphs. As I understand it that is what paragraphs are for.
@Chimpanzee: Those are good numbers. I'm glad you do not support a mass claim. Are you having troubles with any clanmates? You seem very worried about trusting them. Perhaps you are suspicous of some one? I can understand that. I still don't want Jobie's clanmates to claim. Here's why:
If the mafia decide to claim to be Jobie's clannmates, they will be investigated and executed. The cop will reveal them and ask for their execution as it is understood that a mafia death is worth the cop revealed. So the mafia won't claim.
If Jobie's clanmates are not mafia they might claim and draw an inspection on themselves, possibly revealing a novice cop. The reaction to the claim would be to spread paranoia and chaos among what should be united bodies of clanmembers. The mafia would prey on. This is bad whether or not the cop is revealed.
So far results would be bad, but it gets worse. There is a terrible sittuation that can come out of this. If the mafia have a godfather, the GF can claim. He will be inspected. Whether or not the cop reveals his info, the GF will insinuate himself as a confirmed townie, and who could really argue?
So I say this. No one should claim as Jobie's clanmate. It will waste the town's time and resourses, and possibly have disasterous consequenses. There is no potential for peace of mind, and much potential for chaos.
I think the SK is probably an individual acting without a clan, since the kill description certainly doesn't describe an online group.
You're right that it doesn't sound like a group's action. That doesn't mean everyone should write off clan members. While it is unlikely that a clan member is not the serial killer, a great deal of damage could be done and ignored if we take that assumption too far.
FOS:Chimpanzee for suggesting any sort of claim (p53&55) without pressure (information) to force truth. That is giving bad people good things.
I'm not sure that the disussion of single clan mafia vs scattered mafia should be over yet.
Quote from Prizm »
And somewhere, lurking in the shadows, one clan was plotting to destroy the others.
This is from the Clan Mafia sign up thread and I think that confirms the status of the mafia as all being members of one clan. That does not mean that they have not infiltrated other clans.
We can't know Jobie wasn't an infiltrator even if Rahl posts. There is no absolute truth here. Any one of us could have lied, and many of us have motivation to lie. The mafia and any neutrals probably did not tell us the whole truth. Still, I'm glad you're not writing of infiltrators completely.
@Enigma91: Good of you to show up. If memory serves, you were a part of Shaman mafia so I know you won't go for any of this soft claiming nonsense.
Hand: 0
Untap, Upkeep, Draw (1).
Main Phase: Play Wheel of Fortune(7).
Assuming no responses: Play Library of Alexandria(6).
Pemanents: Library of Alexandria. Graveyard: Wheel of Fortune
End Turn
Life: 20
Hand: 6
Very diplomatic of you ikerr.
@Everyone else: Please realise this is not townish behavior. Vote for sgdre until he is lynched or claims. His actions mark him to a degree that merits a lynch.
No hard feelings, eh?
The mafia arn't going to stand for census. We arn't going to get accurate numbers with this claim. We won't know who is lying, we will get inacuracies. The mafia know who is lying and will get accurate information. It will be the end. A mass claim will lead to the destruction of the town, even if it's a soft claim. It's a really bad idea.
@Chimpanzee: The inspection after a Jobie claim is wasted as it is almost guranteed to turn up townie. I think we should take our chances elsewhere. As for the Project Mayhem thing, they are Project Mayhem, this probably isn't anything. Anyhow, you seem less suspicous than at first, so UnFOS:Chimpanzee.
Then there is the cops action. I doubt touchable mafia will make this claim. For all of us to be sure though, the cop will have to reveal their identity, and I'm sure you see why that is bad. By requesting a claim from an unknown source you are creating a safe haven for a Godfather, wasting the cops time, and possibly endangering the cop, not to mention wasting the cop's time.
You put words in other's mouths when you assign them a claim for remaining silent. In this case that claim is "not Jobie's clanmember." I thought that was obvious, forgive me for not elaborating.
I've seen these kind of situations lead to devestating results when the mafia uses them correctly. I think it's been mentioned already, but Shaman mafia was an excelent example of that. I ask that you not think only of action, but of reactions as well. Where does revealing this info lead? What is the worst that could happen? Is the risk worth it?
In this case, the risk of a well position godfather, the delay in the cop's job of finding mafia, and lack of resolution should the unknown clanmember claim is too negative to proceed. Requesting the claim is not justified.
I can type with big letters too.:)
The issue isn't the information the mafia have on the claimee, but the effect the claim has on the town and the rest of the game. We don't want to give mafia power, and that is what this claim could do.
Mass claims are very dangerous. Mods create their games so that mass claims will backfire. You can't be serious about one.
Putting words in other peoples mouths is bad, and assuming is bad. It leads to incorrect conclusions, and the mafia use this to destroy the town.
Every idea in your previous two posts reeks of scummieness. I was going to exercise restraint with my votes, but you deserve to be lynched for this. Vote:sgdre.
@Chimpanzee: Those are good numbers. I'm glad you do not support a mass claim. Are you having troubles with any clanmates? You seem very worried about trusting them. Perhaps you are suspicous of some one? I can understand that. I still don't want Jobie's clanmates to claim. Here's why:
If the mafia decide to claim to be Jobie's clannmates, they will be investigated and executed. The cop will reveal them and ask for their execution as it is understood that a mafia death is worth the cop revealed. So the mafia won't claim.
If Jobie's clanmates are not mafia they might claim and draw an inspection on themselves, possibly revealing a novice cop. The reaction to the claim would be to spread paranoia and chaos among what should be united bodies of clanmembers. The mafia would prey on. This is bad whether or not the cop is revealed.
So far results would be bad, but it gets worse. There is a terrible sittuation that can come out of this. If the mafia have a godfather, the GF can claim. He will be inspected. Whether or not the cop reveals his info, the GF will insinuate himself as a confirmed townie, and who could really argue?
So I say this. No one should claim as Jobie's clanmate. It will waste the town's time and resourses, and possibly have disasterous consequenses. There is no potential for peace of mind, and much potential for chaos.
FOS:Chimpanzee for suggesting any sort of claim (p53&55) without pressure (information) to force truth. That is giving bad people good things.
I'm not sure that the disussion of single clan mafia vs scattered mafia should be over yet.
This is from the Clan Mafia sign up thread and I think that confirms the status of the mafia as all being members of one clan. That does not mean that they have not infiltrated other clans.