MTG Salvation

So the thread is back on track!!!

Thanks @Feyd for restoring it.

Quote from saneatali »

Thinking Man's Troll 2UU
Creature - Troll Advisor
U: The next time ~ would die this turn, instead put it on top of its owner's library.
3/3

Good catch. But does it have to say “The next time...”? Couldn’t it just say “If Card Name would die this turn, instead...”?

How about

"Whenever X would die, instead, put it into your library 2nd (or 3rd) from the top."

I think that captures the "slowly regrowing" ability."

Another precursor would be Wayward Soul.

Maybe the ability given by Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, could be flavored as a sort of "Kill me quickly / with overwhelming force, or I'll just grow back and you'll have to try again"? Unlike persist/undying/regen/indestructible/etc., that's actually clearly part of blue's color pie, and it's not necessarily too overpowered to boot.

The bigger issue might be the impact on the set as a whole: 1) It's not a particularly compelling ability, since you can't really build around it; 2) You'd probably want to include more incidental abilities that target that you can combine with others to kill the trolls (more Forge Devil and Cinder Pyromancer), plus things like Diabolic Edict, and 3) Even then, giving a whole subset of the set an ability that invalidates lots of traditional removal might be dangerous.

In general, though, frankly I'm concerned about your very premise. Looking for a regen-type ability seems to lean towards defensive abilities, and if you're not careful then that seems like it implies 1 and 3 no matter what the specifics of the mechanic are.

Also, in general you're looking for a creature mechanic in blue, which is tricky. Maybe level up? That's primarily blue, and you could stretch it as the idea of trolls getting tougher as they age. Or maybe a level-up variant that removes counters when they take damage? It'd be hard to make sure it's not frustrating to play against.

A flicker effect (exile and instantly return to the battlefield) is absolutely in blue's domain and would do basically the same thing as regenerate. Delaying the return to the end step would also let them survive board wipes.

Flavor-wise, it would be like they turn to mist or something in response to damage and then reform. It could be like suspend, where they are exiled for a number of turns equal to the damage they took, so the harder they're hit, the longer it takes them to reform.

We crushed this city.

We crushed this city on rock and rollllll

Quote from Feyd_Ruin »

Quote from The Fluff »

Can I be added to the list please. Was just trying to type a post that included a few unicode characters.

Added!

Thank you. And Merry Christmas.

Quote from Etherium Sage »

Isn't the reminder text literally there to "remind" you how it works? Yes, it would be prudent to have Wizards explain the mechanic in more detail to clear up any misconceptions that may arise, but "for the rest of the game" sounds pretty permanent to me.

The thing is... is being permanent really problematic?

In essence this is a threshold mechanic that appears on some cards and once you have reached the threshold you can't go back.

To put that in context let's look at some cards from back when threshold was the actual relevant threshold mechanic re-designed to work like ascend:

Toxic Stench
Instant
Descend (If you have seven or more cards in your graveyard, you gain the underworld's blessing for the rest of the game.)
Target nonblack creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn. If you have the underworld's blessing, instead destroy that creature. It can't be regenerated.

Kirtar's Wrath
Sorcery
Descend (If you have seven or more cards in your graveyard, you gain the underworld's blessing for the rest of the game.)
Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated. If you have the underworld's blessing, create two 1/1 white Spirit creature tokens with flying.

Now let's assume further that we will get something we still will get permanents that care on whether the mechanic is turned on, and we will see an interesting change:

Childhood Horror
Creature — Horror
Flying
As long as you have the underworld's blessing, ~ gets +2/+2 and can't block.
2/2

This could happen (in Rivals of Ixalan this could be a decent enough Vampire design). Now as a designer I understand why descend is a preferable mechanic to threshold. Threshold turning on or off in mid of combat -or worse: during the post-combat main phase with combat damage still marked on a creature- can be a problem, especially if it happens multiple times in a game. It is attractive to disable the back and forth between active and inactive. The fact that you have to toggle the state change with a spell also makes it a prominent event less likely to be missed and you can even have a physical token-like reminder that pronounces the new state.

There were quiet a few games where threshold was reached and never lost and those "reach threshold and forget about it" situations are preferable from a board complexity position. If threshold/underworld's blessing cannot be lost, then it is always "gain the blessing and forget about counting". The same is the situation with city's blessing.

Now that brings up the question: Is threshold better as an "interactive" mechanic that creates board complexity in exchange for depth or an "uninteractive" mechanic of "reach the threshold and forget about it" style? We have seen interactive thresholds of various types e. g. hellbent, delirium and metalcraft (this one a smaller type-specific relative to ascend). I think it's interesting to look at individual cases and see why there is a benefit to making them interactive e. g. I think hellbent is better interactive almost by coincidence because as a designer I care less about interactivity (e. g. an opponent deactivating hellbent with Vision Skeins) than I care about the individual player's effort to overcome the natural flow of the game that gives you a new card each turn to get rid of.

For delirium - as before with threshold/underworld's blessing - I have a harder time making a strict argument like that. Is the complexity of a negative synergy with flashback worth the added depth of interactivity here? The depth while non-zero is often rather shallow - and I feel the complexity is more relevant for a threshold ability depending on an interactive counter like permanents than a relatively uninteractive counter like cards in graveyard.

It seems interactivity was removed on purpose in a case of "make this threshold stick or don't make it at all" - custom card designers that actually playtest similar mechanics will bre able to tell you that similar mechanics often fail to be playable at all due to too much interactivity (when it's too easy for your opponent to turn of your eminent state).

And consider that the solution ascend provides does by no means remove all interactivity at the high level. It does something else instead: Front load interactivity. You are now forced to think about preventing your opponent from reaching the threshold even once and keep instant speed removal at the ready to cast in response to the spell that allows them to ascend. The mechanic adds this other facet to the game: You can have multiple new Childhood Horror-like cards (see above), but ascending/descending does not jut happen üassively by reaching a certain game state - you have to turn it on! You have to invest mana and a card in hand to do so (the current wording implies it's not a keyword action that could appear on a triggered/activated ability on a permanent unless I misread the card).

And that means you get limited opportunities - critical points of success or failure. Decks that can interact with permanents can prevent you from hitting ten, decks that can interact with spells/cards in hand can pluck your state changing spells/cards from you - but they have to be ready. Preplan.

But maybe a dumbed-down game where you can just sit on your board wipe and retroactively remove an opponent's eminent state because you misread their capability to go off before is what you really want.

For me personally things aren't so black-and-white. And the lack of interaction in energy decks seems more of an issue to me since energy is accumulating as well as unconditional: Repeatedly casting and resolving Attune with Aether gave you more energy - evetually resulting in more activations. And you can start gathering energy turn 1 with this mechanic and never fail to grow your capabilities.

The city's blessing both is conditional (on ten permanents), so you have to put work into it towards getting anything at all out of it, and has a low ceiling of one(!), so casting Vona's Hunger repeatedly won't escalate the game state. This suggests to me that from our current position we should consider the city's blessing a potential improvement over the overly pushed energy mechanic in a 1-on-1 comparisson.

It's always possible that a tool is used in an ill-advised fashion, but as far as tools go this is one I am optimistic for. Best-case it will fundamentally shape how we see threshold mechanics in the future. Worst-case... it's still not as inherently dangerou as energy.