I think the problem is that if players can choose snow or not, whoever drafted it chooses snow and no one else does. It kind of ruins the thematic experience and can make a functional difference for some cards.
The difference is basically what snow cards you're running and whether or not any of them 'punish' snow. I don't recommend playing cards that punish snow that much, because it turns the reactions from 'So, that basically kills any creature for R? Cool.' to 'You only beat me because I had to play snow.'
The only snow punisher I have right now is Zombie Musher. It's obviously only good because all basics are snow, but people sort of 'get it' right away and it feels like a normal, albeit very good, Magic card.
That's the metric I would use: do these snow cards feel like fair, undercosted cards or hoser cards?
On a boring note, I did find there's some confusion when people just 'treat all basics as snow.' Mostly people count ALL their lands as snow instead of just their basics. It affects the counting on Skred and Chilling Shade, mostly. I also think it helps to balance those cards by not being as great in nonbasic heavy decks.
so what do people actually think of the cards that become available when running snow basics?
A lot of my thoughts are the same as the original post of thise thread. I think Gelid Shackles is underrated. I have since tried Baldivian Frostwalker and it's pretty good. Trading lands for 2/2 fliers has its applications.
In general, snow is deep enough to go in a few dfferent directions. There's a Pestilence variant, some LD, creature pump, etc.
A small note: Read Stalking Yeti carefully. His ability is affected by pump spells and does nothing if it's removed in response.
1) I thought Maro's column said tokens is G/W. Don't know if that suggests anything to be downshifted.
2) The only real W/B theme I remember drafting was rebels. It doesn't need a ton of support and does give us our Pacifism variant: Bound in Silence.
3) I love, love, love Centaur Glade. I think it's either the #1 or #2 green ramp target (with Pelakka Wurm). I hope Worm Harvest plays as well as Glade.
4) I'm cautiously optimistic about getting a rare changling at uncommon. The white, black, and red ones fit pretty well.
Mirror Entity- Fits Giants and my hypothetical Rebel deck. Also amazing in G/W tokens. In fact, probably way too good to make it.
Cairn Wanderer- Good in Faeries and Goblins. Very good fit in B/G's Dredge deck too. Maybe too complex and/or antequated (mentions fear and shroud).
Taurean Mauler- Tribal synergies plus a random storm hoser. Most importanly, probably the simplest to understand.
Zendikar lands = no more functional than basics
Snow lands = 100% necessary to get like 20+ of them in you want to run certain cards. Only printed like twice.
Agreed. That's why I'm saying the real problem is that Coldsnap was a small, underpowered set that no one bought. If they did a large snow block and snow basics were like gates in DGM, people would get them real quick. It being underutilized makes it unfortunate, not bad.
Are you seriously worried that 10 life might not be enough to stabilize? I cannot think of many other cards for 6 mana that would help me as much as Feudkiller's Verdict. I mean, if you're so out of the game that 10 life doesn't help, I'm not sure what else could. Maybe a Slice and Dice? But then again, that's considered a stable Peasant card.
I also cannot imagine a situation where Goldnight Redeemer helps more.
Feel free to provide counterexamples, but I am instantly putting Feudkiller's Verdict in my cube.
I mean, almost every Zendikar basic is worth more than a Coldsnap basic of the same type. I know there's a huge function gap there, but I mean to say that just printing a relevant basic land in a large set people actually open a lot of is a step in the right direction.
Heck, I thought Modern Masters would've been a great place to reprint them. Just blame Coldsnap instead of snow in general.
I really liked snow because it was another resource to balance when drafting. Triple Coldsnap had its problems (and even those I didn't mind as much for the chance of trying a new environment), but I think those were all based on the set size and not on snow. In fact, a new snow block is right up there with 'wedge block' and 'card types matter' block on my wish list.
My cube's experience with Cold Snap was that people really didn't like it when snow became a drawback they literally could not avoid.
There were times it sat in its owner's hand because they couldn't afford to play it. But that's probably a minority situation.
I took it out for the goodwill of snow with my playgroup.
From my Senor Stompy days: Rogue Elephant/Scythe Tiger and Fallow Wurm get land into your 'yard. Wurm is certainly the best of these. Hidden Horror dumps a creature in the yard. Brawn is happy to be in the yard, but is likely to be outclassed as a green 4-drop.
Finally, Smallpox is an amazing enabler, possibly getting 3 cards in your graveyard at once while also doing the same to your opponent.
I think Worm Harvest is situational adequate at 1. Which is a fancy way of saying 1 is okay if you're not under pressure.
Worm Harvest and Cenn's Enlistment is not a good comparison because Worm Harvest is a build-around me engine and Enlistment isn't. You put Worm Harvest into a deck because you plan on casting it 3+ times. Saying 'It's not more effective than Cenn's Enlistment until you cast it 3 times' is almost beyond the point.
The real discussion to have here is about whether or not the engine involved is good enough to support Worm Harvest. And we won't really know that without testing.
Edit: I now see a thread on this exact topic, which is good.
I'm immensely skeptical of worm harvest. the problem I see with it is that the card is completely useless unless built around with cards that already have a very specific function....I can't imagine running worm harvest will yield better results than a build around like isochron scepter, and most people cut the scepter for being too variable. I'd love to find out the contrary, because I really do like the card.
After reading this, I wanted to say 'The difference between Worm Harvest and Isochron Scepter is that Worn Harvest is just part of an archetype instead the whole archetype.' Then I thought 'Well, it's not like those 2-mana instants are useless without Scepter.' So I guess they are the same.
I'm trying it out because I love the idea of the archetype (Golgari as dredge/scavenge/sacrifice deck) and it fits in nicely with a 10-card swap I made in black to support its sacrifice theme.
Time will tell on this one.
At this point, most of the downshifted rares are likely to be to support draft archetypes. Here are some guesses based on that.
Broodstar- A true build-around uncommon for Affinity. Without artifact lands, it's to get him to a 5/5 for 3UU. More a prediction than a wish.
Sprite Noble- At uncommon, looks like a fair Scion of Oona. Reasonably sized faerie with a mini-Anthem attached.
Call of the Herd- If dredge and tokens are both are draft archetypes, uncommon Call makes lots of sense.
Mad Auntie or Knucklebone Witch- I think Goblins will be the B/R theme, and one of these makes sense. The 'other Goblin' clause makes Auntie possible, but Witch is more likely.
I like having Masked Admirers and Worm Harvest at uncommon because it's another possible new direction to take those colors.
As mentioned, there's a lot support for BG graveyard decks, given the last two blocks as support. Mulch is close, I think. Given its own land-searching effect plus the random synergies, it might get there.
I wonder if Masked Admirers is on-theme enough for current green sections. I say 'yes.' Paying 4 mana for a 3/2, draw a card isn't too far off paying 4 mana for a 3/3 that may Naturalize and get +1/+1.
It is currently thought (Edit: and now confirmed) that Worm Harvest is going to be reprinted at uncommon in Modern Masters. This inspires a few questions on the topic:
1) How good does Worm Harvest need to be the first time you cast it from your hand? My guess is two, given the initial investment of 5 mana. Maybe, maybe 1 if you're not under a lot of pressure and can retrace it easily.
2) How much good support is there for the effect? Between B, G, Golgari, and colorless, I have ~10 ways to help. Though I see some other easy ones (Stinkweed Imp, Harrow, Edge of Autumn, Grisly Salvage), I wonder where the threshold is for support. Also, playing blue makes this a lot easier to support.
3) Between this and cards like Spider Spawning, there are a lot of good reasons to try supporting a B/G graveyard archetype. Has anyone tried it? What do you cube to support it? Is it a strong archetype?
The difference is basically what snow cards you're running and whether or not any of them 'punish' snow. I don't recommend playing cards that punish snow that much, because it turns the reactions from 'So, that basically kills any creature for R? Cool.' to 'You only beat me because I had to play snow.'
The only snow punisher I have right now is Zombie Musher. It's obviously only good because all basics are snow, but people sort of 'get it' right away and it feels like a normal, albeit very good, Magic card.
That's the metric I would use: do these snow cards feel like fair, undercosted cards or hoser cards?
On a boring note, I did find there's some confusion when people just 'treat all basics as snow.' Mostly people count ALL their lands as snow instead of just their basics. It affects the counting on Skred and Chilling Shade, mostly. I also think it helps to balance those cards by not being as great in nonbasic heavy decks.
A lot of my thoughts are the same as the original post of thise thread. I think Gelid Shackles is underrated. I have since tried Baldivian Frostwalker and it's pretty good. Trading lands for 2/2 fliers has its applications.
In general, snow is deep enough to go in a few dfferent directions. There's a Pestilence variant, some LD, creature pump, etc.
A small note: Read Stalking Yeti carefully. His ability is affected by pump spells and does nothing if it's removed in response.
1) I thought Maro's column said tokens is G/W. Don't know if that suggests anything to be downshifted.
2) The only real W/B theme I remember drafting was rebels. It doesn't need a ton of support and does give us our Pacifism variant: Bound in Silence.
3) I love, love, love Centaur Glade. I think it's either the #1 or #2 green ramp target (with Pelakka Wurm). I hope Worm Harvest plays as well as Glade.
4) I'm cautiously optimistic about getting a rare changling at uncommon. The white, black, and red ones fit pretty well.
Mirror Entity- Fits Giants and my hypothetical Rebel deck. Also amazing in G/W tokens. In fact, probably way too good to make it.
Cairn Wanderer- Good in Faeries and Goblins. Very good fit in B/G's Dredge deck too. Maybe too complex and/or antequated (mentions fear and shroud).
Taurean Mauler- Tribal synergies plus a random storm hoser. Most importanly, probably the simplest to understand.
Agreed. That's why I'm saying the real problem is that Coldsnap was a small, underpowered set that no one bought. If they did a large snow block and snow basics were like gates in DGM, people would get them real quick. It being underutilized makes it unfortunate, not bad.
I also cannot imagine a situation where Goldnight Redeemer helps more.
Feel free to provide counterexamples, but I am instantly putting Feudkiller's Verdict in my cube.
Heck, I thought Modern Masters would've been a great place to reprint them. Just blame Coldsnap instead of snow in general.
There were times it sat in its owner's hand because they couldn't afford to play it. But that's probably a minority situation.
I took it out for the goodwill of snow with my playgroup.
Hidden Horror dumps a creature in the yard.
Brawn is happy to be in the yard, but is likely to be outclassed as a green 4-drop.
Finally, Smallpox is an amazing enabler, possibly getting 3 cards in your graveyard at once while also doing the same to your opponent.
Even manlands kind of fit: Mishra's Factory, Treetop Village, and even Zoetic Caverns might hit your graveyard.
Worm Harvest and Cenn's Enlistment is not a good comparison because Worm Harvest is a build-around me engine and Enlistment isn't. You put Worm Harvest into a deck because you plan on casting it 3+ times. Saying 'It's not more effective than Cenn's Enlistment until you cast it 3 times' is almost beyond the point.
The real discussion to have here is about whether or not the engine involved is good enough to support Worm Harvest. And we won't really know that without testing.
Edit: I now see a thread on this exact topic, which is good.
After reading this, I wanted to say 'The difference between Worm Harvest and Isochron Scepter is that Worn Harvest is just part of an archetype instead the whole archetype.' Then I thought 'Well, it's not like those 2-mana instants are useless without Scepter.' So I guess they are the same.
I'm trying it out because I love the idea of the archetype (Golgari as dredge/scavenge/sacrifice deck) and it fits in nicely with a 10-card swap I made in black to support its sacrifice theme.
Time will tell on this one.
Broodstar- A true build-around uncommon for Affinity. Without artifact lands, it's to get him to a 5/5 for 3UU. More a prediction than a wish.
Sprite Noble- At uncommon, looks like a fair Scion of Oona. Reasonably sized faerie with a mini-Anthem attached.
Call of the Herd- If dredge and tokens are both are draft archetypes, uncommon Call makes lots of sense.
Mad Auntie or Knucklebone Witch- I think Goblins will be the B/R theme, and one of these makes sense. The 'other Goblin' clause makes Auntie possible, but Witch is more likely.
Pulse of the Grid/Pulse of the Forge- The closest rares I found that would be reasonable uncommons for Storm.
Sigil of Distinction- If any rare equipment was moving to uncommon, it would be this one. Longshot, I'd say.
Demonfire- The exile clause hoses dredge and the hellbent part hoses Faeries. Hope this makes it over Disintegrate.
Seismic Assualt- Only because it's another 'build around me' card. If there'os support for retrace, it would overlap with support for Assault.
Vampiric Spirit- If W/B is filled with lifegain spells, Spirit's drawback wouldn't hurt too much.
Savannah Lions and Troll Asectic- Lions is a gimme at this point, and Asectic is reasonable at uncommon to support R/G aggro.
Char or Hammer of Bogardan- Just want a cool uncommon burn spell that's not Flame Javelin. Hammer also has mild storm synergy.
As mentioned, there's a lot support for BG graveyard decks, given the last two blocks as support. Mulch is close, I think. Given its own land-searching effect plus the random synergies, it might get there.
I wonder if Masked Admirers is on-theme enough for current green sections. I say 'yes.' Paying 4 mana for a 3/2, draw a card isn't too far off paying 4 mana for a 3/3 that may Naturalize and get +1/+1.
1) How good does Worm Harvest need to be the first time you cast it from your hand? My guess is two, given the initial investment of 5 mana. Maybe, maybe 1 if you're not under a lot of pressure and can retrace it easily.
2) How much good support is there for the effect? Between B, G, Golgari, and colorless, I have ~10 ways to help. Though I see some other easy ones (Stinkweed Imp, Harrow, Edge of Autumn, Grisly Salvage), I wonder where the threshold is for support. Also, playing blue makes this a lot easier to support.
3) Between this and cards like Spider Spawning, there are a lot of good reasons to try supporting a B/G graveyard archetype. Has anyone tried it? What do you cube to support it? Is it a strong archetype?