How do people like Fencing Ace and Viashino Slaughtermaster? They seem like 'equipment/auras or bust' cards, but I'd be willing to try them out if otherwise
I would like to vouch for Last Gasp and it's double-B companion Grasp of Darkness.
I'm not exactly sure where I would rank them among 2cmc spells until I do a thorough search of how many creatures each spell kills.
They do lack the ability to automatically kill whatever they target, but they don't have any targeting restrictions, which is a nice Peace of Mind to have sometimes. The creatures they don't outright kill are sometimes weak enough to kill via combat, but that's not highly reliable. However, they do deal with some problematic creatures for black. Besides the Boas and Cudgel Troll, I would add Vital Splicer and (especially) Darksteel Sentinel as relevant targets for Last Gasp and Grasp of Darkness.
The most, and probably by far the most, valid interaction is with the vanishers. Giving keldon marauders another turn of life is insane. Blasto? It's like cheating.
I believe you mean the faders, right? (I was playing during Nemesis and consider fading quite initiative; fading is an upkeep cost and the card is sacrificed when the cost can no longer be paid)
The only other really good interaction (beyond +1/+1, -1/-1, or charge counters) I can think of is Level Up creatures. I'm only running 3 in a 512 cube (Enclave Cryptologist, Joraga Treespeaker, and Beastbreaker of Bala Ged) and I can't think of too many other ones (Halimar Wavewatch is the only one) off the top of my head.
I guess I just respect Divination more than most people or am just looking at the cards from more of a design perspective.
As for proliferate, it's a pretty hard effect to judge. It's hard to figure out what an extra +1/+1 counter is worth, for example. I don't think anyone would even pay a single mana for that, but it's a nice random throw-in on a spell.
The other part to figure out is how often proliferate will be good. That seems a little easier to uncover. Just look at what percent of your cube proliferate positively interacts with (with proliferate, I don't really think about the detrimental interactions with opponents' cards, because you can't really draft/build around an opponent having persist cards).
With regards to colorless prolfierators, (Tezzeret's Gambit and Contagion Clasp) it's worth noting that green is likely to have the most interactions. There are also a fair amount of colorless cards too, although some of those do have color leanings (any of the Vivids and Shrines).
I suppose my point is not that those cards AREN'T better than Divination, because they clearly are nearly all the time (but not necessarily all the time), but that none of them are drastically more powerful than Divination.
To bring it back to Sylvan Library, I consider it to be better than Divination 40% of the time, which I think makes Sylvan very good. But even if it was only better, say, 15% of the time, it worth be considering and probably playing.
Divination may never be worth cubing because of the sheer mass of similar cards with better cost/effect ratios or slightly different effects, but I don't think a card needs to be that much stronger than Divination to be worth cubing.
EDIT: I also didn't mention Tezzeret's Gambit before because I think I'm the only one cubing it.
For the record Rancoredmalone, even though I keep comparing it to divination to show the relative impact of the card, that in and of itself isn't saying much since Divination isn't a cubable card by any stretch. And I don't think divination is good in any color.
Fair enough point about Divination there. I'll have two slight counters though.
1) Divination isn't THAT far off of being cubable. I wouldn't touch it unless I had a very large cube (810 or larger), but a lot of very good cube cards are relatively slight variations of the "2U, Sorcery, Draw two cards" model:
Adding one extra draw and discard (in most cases)- Compulsive Research
Adding one extra draw and two discards at instant speed (in most cases)- Thirst for Knowledge
Adding an additional cost for a 2/2 flier- Mulldrifter
Adding an extra mana and an extra selection effect- Foresee
Adding an extra mana, two extra draws and two extra discards (at sorcery speed) plus some timing flexibility (in exchange for a weaker spell)- Careful Consideration
Removing a mana and adding a life payment- Night's Whisper
Those are all overall better effects, but I wouldn't say any of them (except for Mulldrifter) are always going to better than Divination.
2) I also think Sylvan Library is quite a bit stronger than Divination. By the numbers in my post, Library is better (for its cost) a net 40% of the time. That's a nice upgrade by my standards.
Having read this Sylvan Library argument for awhile now, here's what I will say in favor of Sylvan Library.
The one assumption I am making is that paying 2 mana for card selection that gets you the top N-2 of N cards in hand is comparably powerful to paying 3 mana for card draw that gets you N cards in hand. And even if you don't accept this, there's still an argument to make for Sylvan.
Given this assumption, the reason people like Sylvan is SYNERGY. Some of this is built in: one 4-life payment does dig an extra card deeper and makes Library even better. Sometimes you can't afford to pay but you can also draft lifegain cards that now grant card advantage.
There's obvious synergies with shuffle effects (which could possibly be up to 15% of mono-green cards) and Lorescale Coatl. There's pretty good synergy with cascade; you either set up a favorably cascade or dig to a new point to set up card selection (unlike dredge, you mill to a certain point instead of a certain number of cards, meaning you will see two cards deeper your next turn.)
Very mild synergy with self-mill exists. (With Dredge 3, choosing whether or not to mill cards B and C and card select between E, F, and G instead of automatically milling D, E, and F and drawing G.)
Let me put it into approximate percentages:
15% Divination > Sylvan Library
-times you need card draw but can't pay life or shuffle
30% Divination = Sylvan Library
-times 3-mana card draw equals 2-mana card selection, no draws or shuffles
45% Divination < Sylvan Library
-times where card draw equals card selection and 1 draw or shuffle
10% Divination << Sylvan Library
-times where card draw equals card selection and 2+ draws and/or shuffles
If you agree to these (or similar) numbers, Library makes sense. Library is sometimes worse than Divination but is way, way better nearly as often.
It's the same reason people run Plagued Rusalka over Fume Spitter or Flame Jab over Pillar of Flames (a good example because I think they're of similar power, but Flame Jab has a way higher upside).
So, that's my logic for Sylvan Library. I'm sure parts of it can be picked at, but I'm comfortable with my assumptions and numbers.
On the heels of this 'Can every card be good discussion?' I want to ask about some mid-risk, high reward type cards.
For a while, I've been running two proliferate cards: Contagion Clasp and Tezzeret's Gambit. On their own, they're fringe playables. But they do interact well with about 40 cards (~8%) of my cube. That includes Vivid lands, a couple Shrines, some Level Up guys, lots of +1/+1 counters and other odds and ends. So in a deck with 3+ interactions, they go from fringe playables to being quite decent.
My question is 'Does your cube run similar types of cards? Do you think they do or do not have a place in cube building?'
I'll echo most people's thoughts on Feudkiller's Verdict: really good against aggro but not always backbreaking.
As far as cutting cards for power reasons, I've put a lot of work into increasing the overall power level of my cube that I don't cut anything for power now. I've added snow cards and bought/traded for P3K cards (Ravaging Horde, Wei Night Raiders) and Starter cards (Goblin Settler) and cards out of print since Unlimited (Sinkhole, Berserk, Ice Storm) just to push up the power level.
The one metric I use to cut powerful cards is swinginess. It's why I cut Black Vise and Timely Reinforcements. Both of those cards were really good against one deck type and not at all good against others.
I don't mind Propaganda or Ghostly Prison against control. Sometimes they're trying to win with tokens, and it's always nice to tie up their mana.
With Feudkiller's Verdict against control, I expect to be happy with a good threat that also turns their clock back 2-4 turns.
Someone who has opened a box has listed Take Possession as an uncommon. I'm not sure how much better this effect is than Confiscate.
I mean, it's clearly a better effect, but is it 1-mana better to be uncounterable, unrespondable, unable to be destroyed and the instant/sorcery synergies?
I run Dominate now, which would be the card I'd think of removing. Not sure right now though.
I say we do not. I'd rather run Volcanic Dragon or Markov Warlord as red 6-drops.
It's just so hard to get this guy into play via suspend. It was hard in TSP limited unless you had help, like Rift Elemental or Jhiora's Timebug. Since I doubt people play those, I'd say 'stay away.'
Who knew they were going to print so many 5cc green token makers in Modern Masters?
Also, I guess U/G is ramp.
I like Reach of Branches quite a bit. It has nice synergies within this new Golgari archetype and it's even a free discard early game for Looters, Mongrel, etc.
I'm taking out Bestial Menace for it. They're relatively even on power level, but it's looking to be a lot easier to support Reach.
1.) I like Reach of Branches a lot more than Worm Harvest. I realize they'd take different slots, but a guaranteed 2/5 that only gets recursion from forests (that you get to play instead of discard) seems better than 0-3 worm tokens that trigger off any land.
I'm going to agree and disagree with you here. I do think Reach of Branches is better than a Worm Harvest from 0-2, even at 3, and worse from 4+. And I'm hoping that you can frequently start at 2-3, which is slightly towards Worm Harvest in the long term.
I personally feel it's a little harder to take advantage of Remand's benefits in Peasant, especially if you don't support blue tempo.
I'm not exactly sure where I would rank them among 2cmc spells until I do a thorough search of how many creatures each spell kills.
They do lack the ability to automatically kill whatever they target, but they don't have any targeting restrictions, which is a nice Peace of Mind to have sometimes. The creatures they don't outright kill are sometimes weak enough to kill via combat, but that's not highly reliable. However, they do deal with some problematic creatures for black. Besides the Boas and Cudgel Troll, I would add Vital Splicer and (especially) Darksteel Sentinel as relevant targets for Last Gasp and Grasp of Darkness.
I believe you mean the faders, right? (I was playing during Nemesis and consider fading quite initiative; fading is an upkeep cost and the card is sacrificed when the cost can no longer be paid)
The only other really good interaction (beyond +1/+1, -1/-1, or charge counters) I can think of is Level Up creatures. I'm only running 3 in a 512 cube (Enclave Cryptologist, Joraga Treespeaker, and Beastbreaker of Bala Ged) and I can't think of too many other ones (Halimar Wavewatch is the only one) off the top of my head.
As for proliferate, it's a pretty hard effect to judge. It's hard to figure out what an extra +1/+1 counter is worth, for example. I don't think anyone would even pay a single mana for that, but it's a nice random throw-in on a spell.
The other part to figure out is how often proliferate will be good. That seems a little easier to uncover. Just look at what percent of your cube proliferate positively interacts with (with proliferate, I don't really think about the detrimental interactions with opponents' cards, because you can't really draft/build around an opponent having persist cards).
With regards to colorless prolfierators, (Tezzeret's Gambit and Contagion Clasp) it's worth noting that green is likely to have the most interactions. There are also a fair amount of colorless cards too, although some of those do have color leanings (any of the Vivids and Shrines).
To bring it back to Sylvan Library, I consider it to be better than Divination 40% of the time, which I think makes Sylvan very good. But even if it was only better, say, 15% of the time, it worth be considering and probably playing.
Divination may never be worth cubing because of the sheer mass of similar cards with better cost/effect ratios or slightly different effects, but I don't think a card needs to be that much stronger than Divination to be worth cubing.
EDIT: I also didn't mention Tezzeret's Gambit before because I think I'm the only one cubing it.
Fair enough point about Divination there. I'll have two slight counters though.
1) Divination isn't THAT far off of being cubable. I wouldn't touch it unless I had a very large cube (810 or larger), but a lot of very good cube cards are relatively slight variations of the "2U, Sorcery, Draw two cards" model:
Adding one extra draw and discard (in most cases)- Compulsive Research
Adding one extra draw and two discards at instant speed (in most cases)- Thirst for Knowledge
Adding an additional cost for a 2/2 flier- Mulldrifter
Adding an extra mana and an extra selection effect- Foresee
Adding an extra mana, two extra draws and two extra discards (at sorcery speed) plus some timing flexibility (in exchange for a weaker spell)- Careful Consideration
Removing a mana and adding a life payment- Night's Whisper
Those are all overall better effects, but I wouldn't say any of them (except for Mulldrifter) are always going to better than Divination.
2) I also think Sylvan Library is quite a bit stronger than Divination. By the numbers in my post, Library is better (for its cost) a net 40% of the time. That's a nice upgrade by my standards.
The one assumption I am making is that paying 2 mana for card selection that gets you the top N-2 of N cards in hand is comparably powerful to paying 3 mana for card draw that gets you N cards in hand. And even if you don't accept this, there's still an argument to make for Sylvan.
Given this assumption, the reason people like Sylvan is SYNERGY. Some of this is built in: one 4-life payment does dig an extra card deeper and makes Library even better. Sometimes you can't afford to pay but you can also draft lifegain cards that now grant card advantage.
There's obvious synergies with shuffle effects (which could possibly be up to 15% of mono-green cards) and Lorescale Coatl. There's pretty good synergy with cascade; you either set up a favorably cascade or dig to a new point to set up card selection (unlike dredge, you mill to a certain point instead of a certain number of cards, meaning you will see two cards deeper your next turn.)
Very mild synergy with self-mill exists. (With Dredge 3, choosing whether or not to mill cards B and C and card select between E, F, and G instead of automatically milling D, E, and F and drawing G.)
Let me put it into approximate percentages:
15% Divination > Sylvan Library
-times you need card draw but can't pay life or shuffle
30% Divination = Sylvan Library
-times 3-mana card draw equals 2-mana card selection, no draws or shuffles
45% Divination < Sylvan Library
-times where card draw equals card selection and 1 draw or shuffle
10% Divination << Sylvan Library
-times where card draw equals card selection and 2+ draws and/or shuffles
If you agree to these (or similar) numbers, Library makes sense. Library is sometimes worse than Divination but is way, way better nearly as often.
It's the same reason people run Plagued Rusalka over Fume Spitter or Flame Jab over Pillar of Flames (a good example because I think they're of similar power, but Flame Jab has a way higher upside).
So, that's my logic for Sylvan Library. I'm sure parts of it can be picked at, but I'm comfortable with my assumptions and numbers.
For a while, I've been running two proliferate cards: Contagion Clasp and Tezzeret's Gambit. On their own, they're fringe playables. But they do interact well with about 40 cards (~8%) of my cube. That includes Vivid lands, a couple Shrines, some Level Up guys, lots of +1/+1 counters and other odds and ends. So in a deck with 3+ interactions, they go from fringe playables to being quite decent.
My question is 'Does your cube run similar types of cards? Do you think they do or do not have a place in cube building?'
As far as cutting cards for power reasons, I've put a lot of work into increasing the overall power level of my cube that I don't cut anything for power now. I've added snow cards and bought/traded for P3K cards (Ravaging Horde, Wei Night Raiders) and Starter cards (Goblin Settler) and cards out of print since Unlimited (Sinkhole, Berserk, Ice Storm) just to push up the power level.
The one metric I use to cut powerful cards is swinginess. It's why I cut Black Vise and Timely Reinforcements. Both of those cards were really good against one deck type and not at all good against others.
I don't mind Propaganda or Ghostly Prison against control. Sometimes they're trying to win with tokens, and it's always nice to tie up their mana.
With Feudkiller's Verdict against control, I expect to be happy with a good threat that also turns their clock back 2-4 turns.
I mean, it's clearly a better effect, but is it 1-mana better to be uncounterable, unrespondable, unable to be destroyed and the instant/sorcery synergies?
I run Dominate now, which would be the card I'd think of removing. Not sure right now though.
I say we do not. I'd rather run Volcanic Dragon or Markov Warlord as red 6-drops.
It's just so hard to get this guy into play via suspend. It was hard in TSP limited unless you had help, like Rift Elemental or Jhiora's Timebug. Since I doubt people play those, I'd say 'stay away.'
Also, I guess U/G is ramp.
I like Reach of Branches quite a bit. It has nice synergies within this new Golgari archetype and it's even a free discard early game for Looters, Mongrel, etc.
I'm taking out Bestial Menace for it. They're relatively even on power level, but it's looking to be a lot easier to support Reach.
I'm going to agree and disagree with you here. I do think Reach of Branches is better than a Worm Harvest from 0-2, even at 3, and worse from 4+. And I'm hoping that you can frequently start at 2-3, which is slightly towards Worm Harvest in the long term.