Yes, I detail this in the strategy section (not casting CoA without mana/sac open being a good idea against disruption). However, cards like Altar's Reap and Primal Growth should be mandatory in a heavy blue meta IMO. Heavy draw spells like Rhystic Study helps even more than Horizon Spellbomb, but d0su's not running them. Deep Analysis at least should be good against counters. It just doens't make a whole lot of sense to me as a deck tailored towards a blue meta, but I decided to mention it a bit in the deck commentary nevertheless.
I've found a few more budget rares that are quite interesting that I've added to the list. Hoping to get more feedback from others before I publish on the forum.
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Apr 20, 2014
urdjur posted a message on Crushing Dreams on a Budget - Child of AlaraPosted in: urdjur Blog -
Apr 18, 2014
urdjur posted a message on Crushing Dreams on a Budget - Child of AlaraCould you elaborate? Fighting blue goes well with ditchibg the t4 CoA plan I suppose, but you'd probably want to ramp t3 regardless.Posted in: urdjur Blog
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Apr 18, 2014
urdjur posted a message on Crushing Dreams on a Budget - Child of AlaraHere are the remaining two sections. I think the word document is now largely finished - 27 pages! After considering your comments, I'll make a basic formatting effort and post the thread in the Variant forum, then keep formatting and adding LOTS of card tags and making additional improvements based on thread comments etc. Then about a month from now, I'll apply for primer status with the comittee.Posted in: urdjur Blog
Overheat - I never added your decklist to the primer as d0su's has changed his list so it's more similar to yours (with the REBs etc). Biggest difference is the guildgates, but I discuss them already in the Shell, so I don't know. Any idea on how to fit it in nicely? Or maybe you could just post it and discuss it yourself in a reply in the soon to be primer thread?
DECKLISTS
Now it's time to put the core and the shell together. We'll start by taking a closer look at a classic Pauper list that has a somewhat different approach than what's suggested in the primer. A basic budget non-pauper list the follows, which also forms the basis for the "adding money" discussion in the section below.
Decklists - Pauper
Consider the following decklist by d0su, originator of the Pauper Dreamcrusher. This list is current as of January 2014 - I have gently restructured it to fit the terms and categories used in the primer.
This is a very interesting list. By ignoring the intense focus on dropping CoA turn 4, d0su gets away with much more card advantage and an essentially UBG mana base. It may look slow, but it has been proven and refined over three years time - and at rather cutthroat tables, I might add.
Let's look at the shell first. The most striking thing is the utter lack of guildgates. This creates space for other ETBT lands, namely a whole bunch of cycling lands. These can then be recurred by green's "Mulldrifter", Tilling Treefolk. In the Ghostly Flicker engine (or with Capsize), it becomes the Pauper version of Life from the Loam with those cycling lands. Hence, more panoramas make sense too, to draw out all the basics. With little concern for turn 4 specifically, d0su can compensate the lack of guildgates with more but slower multi-fixing.
With raw card advantage being the main plan, it also makes sense to run heavier stuff like Forbidden Alchemy and Yavimaya Elder. I'm not a fan of Rhystic Study in decks without massive mana denial, and I also wonder about the use of Horizon Spellbomb over Mycosynth Wellspring (the former is a Trinket Mage target however, but seems overcosted). I think I'd rather run the three U, B and G artifact lands (a notable omission with a Trinket Mage package) and the Wellspring instead. However, these are minor concerns that largely come down to player preference.
The core seems very solid and uncontroversial to me, and gives new players a useful sense of proportions in the Pauper deck. I think the sacrifice outlets are a little light however - I'd probably play Perilous Research (makes better use of Merchant Scroll) and Primal Growth (say, over Rhystic Study and Prophetic Prism). This would also allow the "sac outlets" to be used more for their other purposes (like spot removal). Quasali Pridemage is a superb choice of multi-purpose 2 CMC removal alongside Oblivion Ring. However, I miss Vedalken Aethermage with all these multi-purpose wizards. Scrivener could probably be cut for it.
All in all, this deck shows that there's more than one way to destroy the world and dominate with a cheapskate deck. In fact, a plan focusing more on card advantage and less on an early CoA could be the better way to go for a pure Pauper build - it will allow you to skimp on Plains and Mountains without shame at least. It's also an interesting comparison to the budget non-pauper build that I'm about to present.
Decklists - The Basic Budget Deck
The basic budget deck will cost you about $80, as many of the cards are still commons or dirt cheap rares, but super strong nevertheless. Upgrades for the more pronounced budget options are discussed in the adding money section.
So the table of contents is roughly INTRODUCTION - CARD SELECTION - DECKLISTS - OVERALL STRATEGY - ADDING MONEY TO THE DECK. Just so you don't get lost in all the copy/pasting.
ADDING MONEY TO THE DECK
The basic budget build is rather adequate on its own, but you can of course improve it further by increasing the budget. Before you go ahead and invest in premium duals and fetches though, there are other more pressing concerns that will add much more bang for your buck. This section sorts them roughly by "cost-benefit", starting small and going up.
Adding Money - Basic Shell Improvements ($35)
These changes are recommended to do first, as they improve your shell and solidify your game plan.
Grim Backwoods -> Phyrexian Tower. It will cost you $12, but it is the best sac outlet in the game (a mana ability that cannot be responded to). Drawing cards is nice and all, but it's simply no compensation for a net difference of 6 mana.
Halimar Depths -> Mystical Tutor. Make your game plan even more solid for only $5. Gets so much powerful stuff in the deck.
Expedition Map -> Tolaria West. A better land tutor since it's also a t2 blue source (replaces Halimar Depths in that department) and works with LftL. Another $5.
I'd also recommend replacing your three worst lands with Sylvan Scrying ($3, can be played t2 and thus replace a land), City of Brass and Forbidden Orchard ($5 each). If you're using the budget shell as suggested, I'd cut Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse and Vivid Creek (fewer ETBT lands means a quicker clock, plus you reduce strain on your basic lands. Panoramas don't ETBT and can produce mana on their own, so cutting the basic fetches is a greater priority).
Adding Money - Emeria Overhaul (about $60)
This package adds the 4 shock dual Plains to the mana base to enable Emeria, the Sky Ruin as a significantly stronger land-based recursion option than Moorland Haunt. This also solidifies the mana base much more, and enables your Plains fetchers to fix any color. Emeria + shock duals costs a few more dollars than a Volrath's Stronghold, but is a MUCH more effective recursion engine, while also greatly improving your mana fixing. Improved land tutors that help assemble Emeria and your other utility lands is also part of the package.
3 basics + 1 Panorama -> 4 shock dual Plains: You can't drop your single basic Mountain, but you can go down to 3 Island, 1 Forest and 1 Swamp. The other 2 panoramas also get replaced in this overhaul. Sacred Foundry, Godless Shrine, Hallowed Fountain and Temple Garden will cost you about $25-30.
Seaside Citadel -> Flood Plain: Like Grasslands and Krosan Verge, this now fixes all colors, and has synergy with LftL. It also finds Mistveil Plains and helps you assemble Emeria.
Moorland Haunt -> Emeria, the Sky Ruin: Another free recursion engine is nothing to scoff at. The Odyssey filter lands that previously launder colorless mana will now help you launder any excess white mana that may arise instead. $4.
2 Panoramas -> Tithe ($4) and Flagstones of Trokair ($10): Both of these get Plains, which mean they now fix every color and help you assemble Emeria. Flagstones further improves your resilience to mass LD, and has synergy with Ghost Quarter (and Perilous Research) if you're still running it (the two form a rather cute engine with Life from the Loam!).
Reap and Sow -> Scapeshift/Primeval Titan: Both of these help assemble Emeria and are more powerful (but more expensive) land tutors than Reap and Sow. IMO, the Titan is the more powerful option, but it may be banned depending on which list your group goes by. Both are roughly at the same price point (around $15).
Adding Money - Better Tutors (about $50)
Demonic Tutor: The most popular tutor in EDH will cost you about $15-20. You now have so strong fixing that getting black on t2 isn't very challenging, so you can probably swap a land for this.
Intuition: Arguably the best triple tutor available, perfect for setting up Life from the Loam with your key lands, or getting whatever you desire with Genesis and Eternal Witness. About $30. Could replace a transmuter or something else if you prefer.
Adding Money - Dark Depths Package (about $75)
This package changes the feel of the deck by changing win conditions somewhat. Particularly recommended if you have played the deck for a while and want to change things up a little.
Fallen Ideal -> Dark Depths: As you become more land focused, Fallen Ideal plays out its role as a sac outlet and with money to spend, also as a win condition. Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage is a pretty awesome combo in Child of Alara, as the token doesn't care about your general sweeper and you can churn out one 20/20 indestructible flyer per turn with Life from the Loam, which should quickly overwhelm exiling effects. Tutors like Intuition and Scapeshift make this happen frighteningly fast. Marit Lage production will presently set you back $55 due to the popularity of the combo.
Three Dreams -> Thespian's Stage: Three Dreams loses value without Fallen Ideal, as you now have fewer targets for it and lose its ability to assemble sac outlet + recursion in a single tutor. Drop it to make room for the other part of the combo. Stage also works as a gold land or extra utility land, but it's hard to find mana to activate it before a t4 CoA, so it probably shouldn't be considered until this point. Only $2.
Bequeathal -> Diabolic Intent: Bequeathal isn't necessary when you drop Three Dreams. Replace the sac outlet you lost from Fallen Ideal by swapping it for an extra Demonic Tutor for a mere $6. Intent is probably not stronger than the other sac outlets you run in the basic build however, so you have to wait for a vacancy to fit it.
Alchemist's Refuge -> Boseiju, Who Shelters All: A more powerful counter-measure to counterspells, that works well with your buyback spells and new tutors. Most of your stuff is instant speed now anyway, so Refuge is less needed. About $8 - well worth the investment.
Dance of the Dead -> Corpse Dance: Now more easy to tutor for, plus it works better with the Refuge/Boseiju swap. Only $3.
Adding Money - Further Shell Improvements ($ as much as you like)
These upgrades cost much and offers comparatively little improvement. You're probably better off improving on other decks.
Reflecting Pool: The next-in-line land improvement. $12 - cheap at this point. Having replaced your ETBT fixers (except your awesome fetch lands that are more important than this) already however, the incremental advantage is small. This could arguably replace the third Island, but I think I'd rather have the basic land. It could easily replace your worst rainbow land, but is probably worse than your filter lands. You probably want to keep Murmoring Bosk for Krosan Verge until you add more Forest duals.
Sensei's Divining Top: As it can dig, it could easily replace your worst land, much like Reflecting Pool. Your 2-drop tutors and digs are adding up now however, but it's a good card. $20 if you're lucky.
True Fetch Lands: These could easily replace your 2 budget Mirage fetches and even your worst rainbow lands since they are better with LftL. The 4-5 cheapest of the lot are about $50 a pop (Arid Mesa, Marsh Flats, Windsweap Heath etc), so they will give you the most bang for your buck and you don't have room for many more anyways.
True Duals: Plateau, Tundra and Scrubland are each at roughly the same price point as the cheaper fetches ($50), so they could replace a basic Plains, Murmoring Bosk and Sacred Foundry. Not sure I'd recommend investing in ABUR duals beyond that, unless you completely rework the shell somehow.
Volrath's Stronghold: Will cost you about $25. Could replace some other source of recursion, but I can't imagine that I'd want to cut anything for it, let alone invest in it for this deck.
Diamond Valley: A moderately played one can be yours for less than $100! Completely unnecessary and much worse than Phyrexian Tower IMO. Spend your dollars on other decks, or something more important than Magic.
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Apr 18, 2014
urdjur posted a message on Crushing Dreams on a Budget - Child of Alarabfine70 - will look over trigger vs. activate as I polish up, good call! Also agreed on Altar's Reap-type cards.Posted in: urdjur Blog
All - here is the Introduction main section, preceeding the Card Selection section. Its subsections are hopefully clear from the basic formatting provided.
INTRODUCTION
History
The concept of 5-Color Control for the common man was first popularized on MTGS by d0su in his legendary Dreamcrusher thread in early 2011. The idea was that using Child of Alara as a Commander compensated for the complete lack of solid sweepers in the common card pool, while using only commons provided for a very cheap deck that still had the power to go up against full power EDH decks, especially in multiplayer.
As the concept of Pauper EDH has consolidated more towards using uncommon creatures as Commanders, and the "Dreamcrusher" build has proven more adapted for regular EDH tables than Pauper settings anyway, the need for adhering strictly to commons has been called into question. While using only commons remains the cheapest way to build CoA, adding even just a few uncommons greatly helps the deck overcome some inherent design challenges and also makes for shorter games (while all commons list can eventually establish control just as well, games go on and tend to be very grindy and durdly).
While there is already a multiplayer primer on using Child of Alara to create a lands-type deck focusing on Life from the Loam and utility lands, this primer will focus more on using Child of Alara itself (even though the non-Pauper builds included here also make use of LftL and utility lands, simply because it would be silly not to). Thus, the primary focus of these builds will be on how to sacrifice and recur CoA as efficiently as possible, and other strategies that are supportive of this concept. While the primer assumes a multiplayer environment, there is nothing stopping you from trying these builds out 1v1 either, especially the "full power" budget version.
Pauper, Peasant and Budget - a Word on Terminology
Since around 2010, there's been an increasing interest for "PDH" or Pauper EDH - a process that this very archetype has helped fuel. At the time however, there was little consensus on what exactly constituted a PDH deck. Can CoA with all commons be considered "Pauper", when the general is mythic rare and the deck is constructed to abuse it as much as possible?
These days, there is a pretty strong consensus that Pauper EDH means using an uncommon (or possibly even common), most likely non-legendary, creature as your Commander, and only commons in your 99. For purposes of this primer however, the "Pauper" build refers to using only commons in the deck, despite CoA being mythic rare. The term is not an endorsement suggesting that a CoA build using only commons has a place at tables where others are running Zameck Guildmage or Ascended Lawmage as Commanders.
There is even less consensus on what constitutes a "Peasant" EDH deck - another format descriptor borrowed from the world of 60 card Magic. Most agree that standard EDH rules apply, but that you're excluding rares from your 99. Some groups or shops go further and limit the amount of uncommons you can run (the equivalent of 5 uncommons in a 60 card deck would be 8 in a 99 card deck, but numbers vary).
Regardless of whether you're using rarity restrictions or just want a competitive but affordable 5C control deck, this is the definitive CoA primer for you! It discusses inexpensive card choices of all rarities, Pauper and budget decklists, and strategy both on a general level and individual card level.
Why Play Child of Alara?
The Pauper version of this deck might be for you if:
*You like having Planar Cleansing as your Commander
*You want to play a workable 5C control deck in EDH that costs less than its sleeves
*You like it when people playing $1000+ decks say your deck is unfair and boring
The Pauper version might not be for you if:
*You intend to play against decks using uncommon Commanders
*You want a good game against fast decks 1v1
*You want something simple to pilot that wins quickly
The budget version might be for you if:
*You like having Planar Cleansing as your Commander, except it costs 0 to reuse, draws you cards and gains you life
*You want to play a competitive 5C control deck in EDH for less than $100
*You dislike a battlefield cluttered with non-land permanents
The budget version might not be for you if:
*You consider aggro or combo as a goal unto itself rather than just a win condition
*You like fair decks that don't steal or reanimate opposing creatures, or force mass discard in the early turns
*You're more interested in playing against other PDH decks with uncommon Commanders
Quick Deck Statistics
Preferred Environment: Multiplayer (any build) or 1v1 (non-pauper builds)
Casual/Competitive: Semi Competitive
Average CMC: About 2.5-2.8 depending on build (though mana demands depend much more on the effectiveness of your recursion engines, than on average CMCs)
Deck Cost [AVG]: ?? ??
Deck MVP: Depends on build and budget, but Capsize and Mind Extraction are always all-stars.
Strengths: Board control, counters, hand disruption
Weaknesses: Graveyard hate, mana denial
Flexibility - How well does the deck combat threats and come back from resource denial/negation?
(8/10) The deck is built around coming back advantageously from mass resource denial. Counters are largely ineffective. Big draw can recover from hand disruption. The biggest problems are graveyard removal and mass LD, especially for the Pauper version.
Efficiency - How well does the deck use its mana base? Does it focus on big bombs or a slow power creep?
(7/10) The Pauper deck can easily use up more than 20 mana/turn. The non-pauper deck can use more than 10 mana/turn but rarely has the need to, since most of the primary deck engines run on little mana.
Consistency - Out of 10 games, how many will be played in similiar or nearly identical ways?
(6-9/10) Very much pilot dependent. You can make every game almost exactly the same, but this will suck the fun out of most games. Consult the strategy section for tips on mixing it up.
Speed - How quickly can this deck take over a table?
(5-9/10) The Pauper deck is the undisputed king of durdling, tutoring for tutors that tutor for recursion that recur tutors etc. - that sort of thing. However, it can also consistently board wipe on turn 5. The non-pauper deck can do that or force everyone to discard their hands by turn 5 without breaking a sweat. It also recovers much faster from the first board wipe.
Style - Does the deck kill you the same way every game, or does it have a million and one ways to finish you off?
(7/10) Multiple win conditions can be included when needed. Typically, the deck closes games with general damage or insurmountable resource denial, but infinite combos and even direct damage are possibilities.
Perceived Threat - How politically threatening is this deck when you show everyone your commander?
(6-9/10) Depends a lot on how you pilot it (see the Strategy section), but once the table knows what you can do, don't expect any silk mittens even if your deck is all commons.
Also, here is the Strategy section after Card Selection, before the section on adding money to the deck. Let me know what you think!
OVERALL STRATEGY
Much of the tactics for playing the deck is discussed in the description of the card(s) in question, and the early game plan is outlined in detail in the Shell section. This section will briefly discuss broader political and strategic considerations.
You Are Control
While acceleration your early mana development is probably always a good thing to do, dropping CoA on turn 4 isn't actually necessary unless the board state demands it. It might not even be the best thing to do even if you can - if you draw attention to yourself and your opponents are packing counters or exiling removal. You might want to spend turn 4 on tutoring for a sac outlet or recursion piece, and perhaps even more ramp, and then drop CoA on turn 5-6 instead with counter back-up or a sac outlet ready. If you can grab control over the game quickly, go for it - but never risk losing control of the game because you want to actually win quickly. Killing is simply a formality. It's rendering your opponents helpless and making their efforts futile that wins the game.
Also, You Are God
While you do demand the sacrifice of a child for the permanent sins of your opponents, you should try not to make your existence too obvious. Let the humans play! It's always best if you know that you have the world in your murderous killing vise, while at the same time letting your opponents think that they have a real shot at eternal life. Don't look like the bad guy. Be the good guy, that saves the table from the brink of disaster! Every time. Of course, there was never any real threat of disaster, but as long as your opponents think it was a close call and that someone else almost had you - had them all in fact - you will get to keep playing your favorite deck and not get hated out. Make your friends into your prophets! They shall prepare the second coming of the Child of Judgment! The security of the table rests in your fatherly hands.
God is an Entertainer
Yes, you can blow up the world whenever you feel like it, but if that is ALL your deck is doing, simply because it magically happens to hose every strategy at the table, your opponents won't have any fun, and pretty soon, you won't either. So mix it up. Maybe one game you can rely on the Oblivion Ring/Capsize engine instead, or the Ghostly Flicker engine with infinite counters and removal. Or their equivalent rare counterparts, Archon of Justice and Mystic Snake. Or maybe you just reset the board once when it really matters, and then reanimate one of your opponent's juicy creatures and attempt to ride it to the win, protecting it with counters. Once in a while, try to win as quickly as possible, perhaps with the Jarad's Orders -> Myojin/Double combo, as this creates a useful distraction to your otherwise inescapable domination of the board. If people lose spectacularly once in a while, they are more OK with losing inevitably the rest of the time. Even if a drastic move will cost you the game, losing once in a while is only a benefit for your deck's reputation. Rather than always playing your deck so it is unbeatable, you can try to make it entertaining whenever you can afford to do so, since that will make it even more unbeatable (socially) in the long run.
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Apr 17, 2014
urdjur posted a message on Crushing Dreams on a Budget - Child of Alara@Overheat:Posted in: urdjur Blog
- The game plan is described under "The Core - Sacrifice Outlets, Recursion and Engine Pieces". Perhaps it would be better to move parts of it to an earlier section, the one describing history and who the deck is for etc, so the newbie reader doesn't get overwhelmed? Formatting will help also, as you say.
- Yes, that is the reason I drop Far Wanderings, Harrow and Myconsynth Wellspring from the budget build - too much strain on too few basics. Are you saying 17 basics isn't enough to support it in the Pauper build either, making that an argument against artifact lands? Not sure I'd agree there. Do you think I need to bring out the awesomeness of Far Wanderings more in its card description?
- Swedish spells "Address" with one D, hence my confusion. Consider it found and replaced!
- Yes, I'm aware about the Panoramas. The fact that they get better with rares is due to the Odyssey Filter Lands, not because they can get shocks/duals (which aren't even mentioned in this section, but come into play when you start considering way more money and Emeria, The Sky Ruin). They also get better with LftL (like all fetches). I'll remove the part of them getting better with rares if it's confusing and leads the mind to consider shocks/duals.
- Divination needs mention at least as a benchmark, if not a recommendation. Compulsive Research is an oversight - should be in the Support - Commons section. It's very solid.
Yes, please do PM me your current decklist. Ideally sorted by function and using CMCs before each spell rather than just "1" (helps evalute what transmuters can get, as well as the curve). I include a reformatted version of d0su's current list, that uses the same categories as the primer, so if you could follow that layout it would be great:
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Apr 16, 2014
urdjur posted a message on Crushing Dreams on a Budget - Child of AlaraOkay, I've posted the Card Selection part - the meatiest section. It's just pure unformatted content right now (MANY card tags etc. to add), but at least it's something to work with. The basic blog interface seems terrible for formatting primers though - couldn't even find card tag buttons on that interface, even though they are here in the comments section. Is there a sandbox part of the forum where we could set up shop, like a secret thread seen only by us or not drawing attention to itself?Posted in: urdjur Blog
Looking forward to your comments. I'll post the other sections as I finish them. - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Culling Scales: These help against decks which pack problem permanents, however ONLY if they do not maindeck disenchant/naturalize effects (e.g. not Enchantress) and if you have more targets for such effects (such as Sulfuric Vortex), you can expect any deck packing the in SB to board them in game 3 at least. So I wouldn't expect to get much mileage out of them except perhaps against something mono blue or so. But I haven't tested it in actual gameplay. It's probably less narrow than Anarchy, but also less useful when push comes to shove.
While this is certainly true, there is also no need to "pack it all", even in a diversified meta. You can make a good burn list that is capable of handling all of the below:
*fast weenie strategies: sweepers and creatures for stalling are needed. Artifact hate against Vial/Jitte works well too.
*big beats: dedicated hate like relic/crypt (goyf/stalker/reanimation) or StS (nought) works best IMO, but you could also try Ensnaring Bridge SB. Creatures help stalling here too.
*combo: Pyrostatic Pillar is the only answer I know of. It's also decent against decks like Threshold and Zoo. REB/Pyroblast could be occasionally effective here too, as could relic/crypt.
*chalice/counterbalance: vexing shusher and artifact removal (also for top) works well. Sulfuric Vortex is good against slow CB decks.
*other problem permanents: realistically, you will have to choose between Pithing Needle or Anarchy here, since you probably won't be able to fit both. REB/Pyroblast probably shouldn't be run simply for permanent removal, since you only really need to worry about Chill which most decks don't run (and it can be played around eventually).
*Life gain: Either fought directly with Sulfuric Vortex (or possibly Everlasting Torment, but meh) or indirectly with pithing needle on survival (or crypt/relic on genesis/witness), StS on Jitte and so on.
Have I forgotten anything? I think my most recent list (and many other lists too) cover most of these bases. I really wish there was something better than Anarchy though. Perhaps some day they'll print something like a red instant for RR that reads "destroy target white or blue permament", but until that day, Anarchy it is.
20 Mountain
//Creatures (6)
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Keldon Marauders
//Bolts (16)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
//Tech (8)
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Magma Jet
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Anarchy
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
davidboan: Yes, the question you should ask yourself is: What decks in my meta play blue spells, and how many of those run counterbalance? If more than half of your blue or blue splashed decks run CB/top, Shusher is better than REB/Pyro.
I'm working on my SB right now and thinking:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Shattering Spree
3 Anarchy
I prefer this combination to Pithing Needle, REB/Pyroblast etc. They leave too many holes. Shusher, spree and anarchy can handle things that they can't - more important things IMO. Here's my MD for reference:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Flamebreak
4 Magma Jet
4 Keldon Marauders
EDIT: After reading up some more on burn, I think it could be a good call to include 2x Smash to Smithereens and 2x Sulfuric Vortex in the main. Magma Jet makes running situational 2-ofs more viable, since you have better chances of getting them when needed, and can filter them away when they are bad. I keep going back and forth on Flamebreak vs. Volcanic Fallout. Also considering Relic of Progenitus for the SB, but I'm not sure it's relevant enough.
Btw, is there any other way to answer Solitary Confinement than clunky Anarchy? I keep searching for something like a pyroblast for white rather than blue, but Anarchy seems to be the only card for killing off white permanents :/
Another question: Which do you think is more important, REB/Pyroblast or Vexing Shusher? There are a few blue permanents that present problems such as Chill that we need REB/Pyro to kill, but the most common blue problem permanent is surely Counterbalance. And REB/Pyro is helpless there, so I'd consider Vexing Shusher to be more important. REB/Pyro is nice to have - Vexing Shusher OTOH is necessary in today's meta.
As of late, I've found Progenitus to be a big problem for this deck, but if he ever finds a permanent home in a competitive deck, running Retribution of the Meek (also hits goyfs, stalkers, noughts) in the SB could be useful. Just another example of how this deck can adapt. In short - know your meta. If you don't, generic D&T builds can still do pretty well in unknown metas.
In regards to this, is there any concensus on Dark Confidant in today's CounterTop meta? Confidant steers the deck to low ccs, avoiding gems like Tombstalker and Snuff Out that are good against CounterTop. OTOH, Confidant is in itself a "gem" and one of the most potent cards in black. Ignoring the problem and trying to have it all in your deck seems like a recipe for disaster. Perhaps the green splash, "eva green" style, is really needed for Krosan Grip and whatnot?
Ankh of Mishra - While this is old school, I think today's meta is wrecked by it just as much as in the golden days. There are many decks out there running 24+ lands and abusing crucible and/or life from the loam. And even a single fetchland played and activated under ankh is 5 damage!! Even if you play against a mono-colored deck with 22 lands, this will most often deal at least 4 damage. It also gets past CoP:red and much other burn hate. If I were to run a burn list in a modern meta, ankh would be my starting point.
Shrapnel Blast - I was initially against this in earlier lists, but today the meta is rampant with Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. This means we can assume a control role against such decks if the damage race is not coming out favorably. Also highly synergistic if we're making an ankh-burn list anyway.
Relic of Progenitus - Has anyone tried this out MD in a Shrapnel Blast list? It combines the features of old bauble burn lists but draws the card immediately, and is a house against Threshold and Ichorid - two MUs that need strengthening. I don't think there's any competitive deck that relies as little on the grave as burn does (exception: Barbarian Ring). And it's never a dead card - at worst it's like a cycle for 2 that enables Shrapnel Blast.
Now for some deck building math. First off, why do people run 19 lands instead of 20? If you want to maximize your chances of 3 lands on turn 3 while minimizing the risk for mana flood, 20 is the correct number. If you run draw like Street Wraith/Baubles, maybe you can go down a land or two, but I wouldn't recommend running those in the first place. Though you might feel good being able to fit that extra damage spell, you're only kidding yourself by playing 19 lands rather than 20 if you run 3cc spells at all (statistically speaking).
Secondly, I'm surprised to see nearly all builds running Fireblast as a 4-of. Yes, it's our best finisher, but it's only feasible to play 2 of these in a game if you run 20 Mountain and you're on turn 5... Thus, I believe 3 is the correct number to avoid a dead copy in hand, but Fireblast should be run as part of a suite of some 8 finishers or so, so as not to loose consistency. The thing is, the other two prime candidates for finishers (Price of Progress and Shrapnel Blast) suffer from the same condition of being better as 3-ofs instead of 4-ofs MD. My solution to this problem would be to run 2x3-ofs and throw in 2 Fork as well (at worst, an Incinerate).
Thirdly, the Flamebreak vs. Volcanic Fallout debate has missed the casting cost issue. Most lists run only red mana, but if you're adding colorless lands, you simply can't run Flamebreak consistently or any other RRR spell for that matter.
In short, the spells need to match the mana base, like so:
*20 Mountain: 4x Fireblast, 2-3 Price of Progress, 1-2 Fork
*18 Mountain, 2 Barbarian Ring: 3x Fireblast, 2-3 Price of Progress, 1-2 Fork (the ring is sort of a finisher itself, albeit a weak one)
*13+ Mountain, 10+ artifacts: 3x Fireblast, 3x Shrapnel Blast, 0-2 Fork OR 2 Price of Progress (unless you run stuff that interferes with it).
Based on the above, I'd like to suggest two lists - an artifact burn with mana denial and a more traditional burn. Both are pretty meta gamed, but in very different ways. Which do you believe is better?
LAND (20)
14 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Great Furnace
BOLTS (16)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Shrapnel Blast
3 Fireblast
2 Fork
OTHERS (16)
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Molten Rain
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Relic of Progenitus
Resilience against aggro in the form of creatures is sacrificed in favor of better game against the big beats, GY- and land-strategies of aggro-control.
LAND (20)
20 Mountain
BOLTS (16)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
2 Price of Progress
2 Fork
OTHERS (16)
4 Flamebreak
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Magma Jet
Traditional burn - the creature targets are decent in the face of removal and very good against straight aggro or control/combo. Unfortunately, threshold and other aggro-control builds are worse MUs.
About splashes... what have you found? Green and white seems most promising. What's in it for the mono black version?
It's basically a question of acheiving the optimal balance between consistency, redundancy and flexibility. Pox and Smallpox is the core - they attack almost all deck types (except dredge), by attacking from so many angles. Most other cards are more or less narrow and risk being dead in some MUs. As with all decks, we should devote some slots MD and some slots SB for aggro, combo, control etc. to complement the pox-effects.
But the flexibility comes at the cost of either lacking consistency or excessive redundancy. Take something like Siphon Life - an excellent card. But if run as a 1-of, we can't count on it in the MUs where we need it, such as burn. In fact, we may have to devote 3 slots to hope for any sort of game 1 consistency. But then the problem becomes redundancy - once we have a copy in hand/grave, the others are pretty useless. And what's more, other retrace spells are less attractive too. My guess/rule of thumb would be to include at least 2 copies MD of a retrace spell, with 1-2 extra in the side for certain MUs, and no more than 4 retrace spells total in the main.
Then there are the static effects like Crucible or Contamination. I think Legacy deck building in general has shown us that 3 is the right number for such effects, unless you run tutors or heavy draw. That gives you a reasonable chance to get one each game, a reasonable chance to replace a destroyed copy in a long game, and a reasonable chance to avoid drawing multiple "dead" copies.
I think part of the solution to this problem is looking at each card in your pox list and consider interactions and multi-purpose applications. Especially win conditions. For example, comparing The Rack with Cursed Scroll, CS is more multi-purpose since it also kills threats or utility creatures like confidant (and doesn't rely on opponent's hand size). Comparing Tomb of Urami and Tombstalker as finishers, Urami is clearly more multi-purpose since it can also produce mana in the early-mid game. That doesn't mean that a swiss army knife always beats an assault rifle, but the core of pox lies in having efficient cards that do many things IMO.
One must also consider interactions. For example, if we look again at Tombstalker vs. Urami as a finisher, adding Crucible to the mix tips the scales further towards Urami. Most of these interactions (like Bitterblossom being better with Contamination etc) are covered in the primer though, so I won't repeat it here.
Waddjathink about this? Have you had the same experiences? I'd like to optimize and streamline a non-budget pox list once the game plans against different deck types are clear to me.
Also, it just occured to me: have you considered that Sinkhole is actually pretty anti-synergistic in a Contamination build? Even though the overall goal is mana denial, that sinkhole is gonna look pretty stupid when you already have a contamination lock. I think pox builds should consider the problem of diminished marginal returns when we start to run many "more of the same" cards.
After all is said and done though, I wonder if a dedicated discard build still wouldn't be better than a dedicated LD build in Legacy. So many decks use so little mana. I see some talk in this thread about how hitting your opponent with Pox when he has 4 lands out is great and all, but let's face it: most legacy decks don't care much if they are left with 2 or 3 land, because half the deck costs 0-1 mana to cast. And if they have 4 lands out, they either had no other cards to play because you discarded them, or you are dead already. OR you are playing against Landstill, in which case you are winning anyway.
Dedicated discard could run what seems to be the most synergistic threats to me: Racks. And since we want to run crucible with man lands, high land count, mox diamond and retrace spells, we get lots of additional win conditions there too. Really, what reason is there not to include the moxen + crucible package in a Pox list? (Well, budget obviously).
I'm really not too fond of Tombstalker. It's powerful, but has no synergy with the rest of the deck. It seems like its power is win more - if they are not in a position to answer a tombstalker, they probably can't answer a recursive nether spirit either.
Another question: The logic that The Rack is anti-synergistic with heavy mana denial seems correct on paper, but is it in reality? If two Racks are out, opponent has 3 cards in hand and is low on life, would he play a spell even if he could? Either he thinks that playing that spell will win him the game sooner than the additional rack damage, in which case mana denial preventing that spell from being played would be good for the pox player. Or he decides against it, in which case we have the same result as if we had played mana denial, so no anti-synergy there (just no added effect to the game state).
Argh! I find myself wanting to eat the cookie and have it too. I want the cuteness of the Contamination lock, with the power of discard and racks. Back to the drawing board.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=157557
It's a three card combo, but sivvi searches out two of them and you have 8 sources for the third piece. So you can have infinite life by turn 5-6 almost every game, unless they have instant speed disruption of the RFG kind. If that sounds too good to be true, remember you still need answers to attacking generals since they ignore life total. There are also combos that win without the life total mattering much.
Test of Endurance is a win con in my deck too, but Phyrexian Processor is also good for such decks. Storm Herd is late game "more of the same", but also good. Good luck!