Self-Inflicted Wound played pretty marginally. While I boarded it in for about a quarter of my games yesterday, the sorcery speed and opponent picking the target are pretty big drawbacks. There were plenty of times where the opponent had a creature out that I needed to kill along with a sacrificial lamb and they always chose wisely. Ie. Mana dork and Heir of the Wilds, but needing the dork to make the four drop.. they pick the Heir to die. Opposite was true when they needed the pressure and not the dork. Sorcery speed is at odds with most of the reactive cards in the deck, ie. Anticipate, Ultimate Price, Hero's, etc.
The decks where it works best often have enough creature density that it won't really be that good unless following a board wipe or catching an opponent literally on turn 2. Even then, I had an opponent with mana dork and Courser on T2.. they sacked the dork and got good mileage from Courser for a few turns before I turned it around.
Dragonlord Ojutai may be a prime target and Azban Aggro has enough early pressure that any removal will be helpful; those are about the only two lists I can think of where it would be better than other options.
Also, shouldn't Thoughtseize always be a 4-of? The card is too good at what it does, even relevant in the late game to snatch combat tricks(Valorous Stance!) and counterspells from opponents. It is especially useful for shaping the early turns of the game to help line up an opponent's hand with your hand so that they do not get too far ahead, even more important for control these days with all of the conditional counterspells and removal.
Got second place at a 25-person event with the above decklist. Was expecting an aggressive meta with the majority of players on some kind of aggressive creature or token strategy, but a reasonable showing of U/B Control and Abzan. Meta was mostly as expected, with less Abzan, Sultai, and green Devotion than usual but still represented by some consistent players. Surprisingly, there was a bit more control than usual and I had skimped on the SB for any type of mirror matches.
The deck and SB are tailored to my expected meta; there is a lot I could/would change taking the deck elsewhere. I also added some cards with limited usefulness main(ie Haven of the Spirit Dragon) to support my singleton SB Ugin as well as get back the mainboard Silumgar if necessary. If I had expected a more balanced meta then the Drowns could have been SB and placed more counterspells and Ultimate Price main. I was originally testing with -1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon, -1 Narset Transcendent and +1 Anticipate. Found Narset was doing surprisingly well in testing so I added a 3rd and then just added the extra land.
Land worked out really well; rarely a problem though there were a couple of times where I'd have to pass an Elspeth in favor for something else while resolving an Anticipate because I lacked a second white source. Otherwise, the balance of citp vs untapped sources, plus the lifegain and scry, seemed to be pretty good. Might be able to tune it a bit but it really didn't let me down.
Narset Transcendent was worth the price of admission; I rebounded Dig Through Time at least 7 - 8 times but every other spell was decent(Crux of Fate, Anticipate and Utter End were all frequent fliers). Scry lands and scry off of Drown in Sorrow set up plenty of free card draws. I whiffed no more than a half dozen times all day. The loyalty is also deceptive as rebounding pretty much any removal is oppressive and buys time to build the loyalty back up. The ultimate is conditionally good but against the control mirror the whole package is an all-star.
Utter End was great but I really doubt I'd want to increase them. They helped deal with opposing walkers when the Downfalls were being strained and were my only mainbdeck answer to Mastery of the Unseen (which seems to come in off of Genesis Hydra all-too-often!)
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver continues to crush souls. Could possibly find room for a 3rd, maybe in the board. Took at least one Whisperwood Elemental that won me a game, Stormbreath Dragon, etc.
Anticipate was a house. This is the filtering that control has been lacking and was bonus value with Narset's rebound. Fixed mana, found answers and just helped advance the board to a place where control was on top. Could see this as a 4-of.
SB:
The singleton Mind Rot should probably never have taken a slot; I just wanted to live the dream once and rebound it against a control player. Never happened, couldn't bring myself to board it in..
Ojutai's Command was cute, it came up a couple of times and once even bought me a crucial turn vs a mono-red aggro player. This could easily be another Negate or Disdainful Stroke. Or perhaps Silumgar's Command for the mirror.(?)
Surge of Righteousness was effective in the matches where I wanted it. Great SB card. Between Drown, Surge and Nyx-Fleece, the aggressive decks were pretty manageable.
For the discard suite, I personally run 3 x Thoughseize and 3 x Inquisition of Kozilek MB with 2 x Hymn to Tourach in the SB. As you've mentioned, the double black can be an issue. The actual CC can be problematic as well, since there is a very large difference between T1 and T2, especially in Legacy. Lastly, I think there is significant value in knowing what else an opponent has in their hand; it allows more informed plays, allowing the best use of resources available. All of that said, Hymn nets card advantage and sometimes can almost win a game by itself, ie when hitting the 2 lands an opponent needed to be in the game. Your using Mox Diamond also gives an opportunity to get the double black on T1, which can set up a huge, albeit inconsistent, bomb with the T1 Hymn. I recommend the Inquisitions but could not fault you if you opted for play the Hymn's MB instead.
Hi Skanedog! I believe Deathrite Shaman should be somewhere in the main 60; this card is too powerful to not be running main. It can be kind of a nombo with Life from the Loam and even Knight of the Reliquary but I think the potential upside is worth considering. The yard hate is relevant in many matches, it has good synergy with land going to the yard(Mox, fetches) and is very likely to give you gas even when you fail to draw a Mox. Lifegain can be a game saver and the non-targeting life loss can also be surprisingly relevant. In short, this card just does too much to not be main.
I also think that there can be a pretty strong argument for including Abrupt Decay, at least a couple, mainboard. Taking your meta into account, having an uncounterable answer is powerful in many match-ups. With the banning of TC, this may be less of an issue now. Still, it is a highly versatile card with little drawback. It also one of the very few cards that can get out from under a Counterbalance which gives it some extra mileage in my books.
You may want more discard somewhere in the 75. I would be pretty hard pressed to play with anything less than 6 discard spells mainboard. This is a matter of preference but most current lists appear to have 5-7 discard main.
I'm not fond of Punishing Fire in this list. It can be a blowout vs some decks but it can be pretty slow to setup and feels like the mana base is getting thin to include R for these 3 cards. Mox Diamonds help, for sure, but this looks like a weird marriage between Jund and Rock. A few cards away from converting to Jund; BBE and a cpl of bolts?
I absolutely dislike the citp tap lands and, to a lesser degree, Dryad Arbor. I concede that Dryad Arbor has plenty surprise power as a blocker off of fetchland and occasionally can provide mana ramp in combination with the GSZ. Speed is the issue; this deck needs to disrupt what an opponent is doing as quickly as possible and then long enough to grind out a win. Having to wait a turn to activate these lands can be a pretty big price to pay.
Choke is so backbreaking vs the blue matchups, it is worth including in the SB for a chance that your discard clears a safe path and it resolves. Usually follows with a pretty quick win, though Daze can get some extra value out of previously tapped Islands. Choke is a meta specific card and in an underdeveloped meta then it's value typically goes down significantly.
Pernicious Deed is another card that I would be hard pressed not to have somewhere in the 75. The collateral damage can be a problem but it is usually worth it because you use it when you need an answer to almost anything. Unless you have a really good idea of what you are playing against, it is good to have some generic answers. Pernicious Deed, Maelstrom Pulse, and Abrupt Decay are the generic answers you are looking for.
Curious if anyone has SB suggestions for Sneak & Show; I very rarely have trouble with anything but combo though Sneak & Show is pretty under-represented in my meta. A couple of the better pilots keep it as their money deck to dust off for bigger events and I haven't been playing my competitive decks recently so I'm unsure of the matchup. Is Containment Priest the new go-to card for SB's? I picked a couple up initially but don't have a playset and would like to avoid the other $50 I need to finish it if the card has been underwhelming in practice. So who has experience with this matchup?
Anything else I could be overlooking? I do have some maindeck answers to a creature in off of Show and Tell, like Liliana and the usual package of removal spells. Sneak, otoh, can be problematic as it dodges Abrupt Decay. I run a few Vindicate mainboard and pack a couple of Golgari Charm SB but I'm concerned that a Show into Sneak into Emrakul is pretty much GG before I get a chance to do anything about it. Containment Priest is the only clean answer I can think of here, other than some clunky cards that I'd like to avoid/will be too slow like Ensnaring Bridge.
Also, Khalar89, how did you like the Stoneforge Mystic package? How did you do at your event?
If you are including Ratchet Bomb for Affinity hate, get saucy and bring Powder Keg instead. It will nuke their lands as well. Tee hee.
could that potentially kill your own creatures as well since it say to "destroy each artifact and creature with cmc equal to the number of fuse counters on Powder Keg"? obviously I have no Ocmc drops, but it could destroy Mom for 1 drops..and so on?
Besides all the artifact hate and what not, what's the best route to take...I know I want Mom and Revoker in starting hand at least...but any other advice in general?
Depends upon your SB, Planeswalker_Wizard; I run a wishboard using Enlightened Tutor, fetching Serenity or Aura of Silence(usually in that order) to seal the deal against Affinity, other artifact-dependent decks(MUD, etc) and Enchantress. If I suspect a large Affinity showing then I also pack a single Powder Keg for additional insulation because Keg at 0 is a huge beating, though that is a meta specific call. Any one of those cards could potentially destroy your own creatures or equipment but you're never going to use your "hail mary" SB cards unless you actually need them to get into the game or knock your opponent out of it, re: if you lose a Jitte but destroy an opponent's entire board then the end result is going to be worth the sacrifice you have to make to get there.
Surprisingly low impact in Standard! Jace, Architect and Pain Seer dodge this. Obviously great against Sphinx but it won't be surprising anyone for value in Standard or Modern where an opponent sees it coming.
In Legacy though.. this is a powerful new tool to curb one of blue's most significant contributions to the format.
This is also subjective to the budget of the person doing the pimping - as mentioned on the first page, sometimes this is just conspicuous consumption too. Some people just have a larger amount of disposable income and what they feel is reasonable to spend on a hobby is a bigger number than the next person.
Like many others posted previously, I don't purchase foils or foreign cards but I do buy pedigree. Original prints, old borders, that type of thing brings back the early years of Magic's history for me and I don't mind paying to get the exact same cards I played(and trashed!) when I was introduced to the game.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of True-Name Nemesis and think that it will definitely have an impact on the format. It isn't going to replace goofy though. It will have less of an impact than many other cards that have been released in the last year.
It is a great card, sure to become a regular sighting in Legacy, but it isn't going to become a format defining or warping card. At the end of the day it is just an evasive 3/1 beater for 3 and that puts it at a very crowded spot for CMC.
I do have high hopes for it in Fish and I really do hope that it explodes on the scene as I've made a bit of an investment in some just off of speculation.
Funny you mention Strikezone, Dice_Bag, as they are also the site I will first check when looking for any non-land card worth over $70. I've gotten a lot of awesome fringe cards over the years from them for a deal when compared to other sites(Nether Void, Chains of Mephistopheles, Moat, etc)
I also recommend, if spending anything over $100, to shop around the WHOLE spectrum of sources. Determine S&H, etc, to figure out the total cost of the purchase. I'm in Canada so I use FacetoFaceGames.com a lot and I have been a very frequent customer of CoolStuffInc.com over the last few years since returning to Magic. Also done orders with SCG(most expensive, but sometimes they have it when nobody else does!), Stronghold Games, AdventuresON, ChannelFireball, etc. and used Ebay extensively to "get the deals".
For selling cards, Ebay will give you the most value if you own "money" cards, with rare exceptions of online stores offering good value(esp with store credit bonus) when they are actively trying to build stock in an "it" card that got hot overnight.
Everyone else has already covered the deck considerations pretty well. A lot of the time, the deck you think you want to play will turn out to not meet your expectations or just end up being a playstyle that quickly gets unfun(boring). Proxy a deck or select cards before diving in - unless you can afford to just pick up format staples at regular intervals, it is best to make sure you are investing into a colour pie you will really enjoy playing in the long run.
Welcome to the best format in Magic!
[EDIT] Check out Spooky's thread and feel free to link-surf from it. Great introduction to Legacy, plenty of fun budget decks that could be very competitive at a local level!
As a fan of both Quinn the Mighty Eskimo and Death & Taxes, I am extremely interested in this card. Comes down sooner than an Oblivion Ring and can accommodate a more controlling playstyle on account of the instant speed. Not to mention all of the potential tricks mentioned previously in this thread.
Fantastic art is almost enough, alone, for me to try finding a brew for this walker!
Cute walker, really does seem to be in the same power range as Ajani which is also dependent upon other cards to do anything but durdle around and both of the 3cc walkers come down with 5 loyalty.
I'd consider this fringe playable - it isn't going to be in every deck but it could definitely get out of control if left unanswered. Really depends upon the opponent's deck.
My bad then, I missed it. Picked it up half way through the match, didn't hear any props given and my previous viewing experience is that they simply said he was piloting it well(re: not the creator)
[/rant] It kills me that every time SCG has Bryant Cook under the camera they totally fail to give him props for being one, if not "the", largest influence in the development of this deck.[/endrant]
Bryant piloted it very well under the camera, great to watch the master spin his craft!
Awesome to see a couple of different storm combo decks might break into the top 8!
The decks where it works best often have enough creature density that it won't really be that good unless following a board wipe or catching an opponent literally on turn 2. Even then, I had an opponent with mana dork and Courser on T2.. they sacked the dork and got good mileage from Courser for a few turns before I turned it around.
Dragonlord Ojutai may be a prime target and Azban Aggro has enough early pressure that any removal will be helpful; those are about the only two lists I can think of where it would be better than other options.
Also, shouldn't Thoughtseize always be a 4-of? The card is too good at what it does, even relevant in the late game to snatch combat tricks(Valorous Stance!) and counterspells from opponents. It is especially useful for shaping the early turns of the game to help line up an opponent's hand with your hand so that they do not get too far ahead, even more important for control these days with all of the conditional counterspells and removal.
2 x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 x Narset Transcendant
2 x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
4 x Drown In Sorrows
4 x Hero's Downfall
4 x Thoughtseize
3 x Crux of Fate
3 x Anticipate
3 x Dig Through Time
3 x Dissolve
2 x Ultimate Price
2 x Utter End
2 x Temple of Silence
1 x Temple of Enlightenment
3 x Dismal Backwater
2 x Scoured Barrens
4 x Polluted Delta
3 x Flooded Strand
3 x Island
2 x Swamp
1 x Plains
1 x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3 x Self-Inflicted Wound
3 x Surge of Righteousness
2 x Nyx-Fleece Ram
2 x Negate
1 x Erase
1 x Ojutai's Command
1 x Pearl Lake Ancient
1 x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 x Mind Rot
Got second place at a 25-person event with the above decklist. Was expecting an aggressive meta with the majority of players on some kind of aggressive creature or token strategy, but a reasonable showing of U/B Control and Abzan. Meta was mostly as expected, with less Abzan, Sultai, and green Devotion than usual but still represented by some consistent players. Surprisingly, there was a bit more control than usual and I had skimped on the SB for any type of mirror matches.
The deck and SB are tailored to my expected meta; there is a lot I could/would change taking the deck elsewhere. I also added some cards with limited usefulness main(ie Haven of the Spirit Dragon) to support my singleton SB Ugin as well as get back the mainboard Silumgar if necessary. If I had expected a more balanced meta then the Drowns could have been SB and placed more counterspells and Ultimate Price main. I was originally testing with -1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon, -1 Narset Transcendent and +1 Anticipate. Found Narset was doing surprisingly well in testing so I added a 3rd and then just added the extra land.
Land worked out really well; rarely a problem though there were a couple of times where I'd have to pass an Elspeth in favor for something else while resolving an Anticipate because I lacked a second white source. Otherwise, the balance of citp vs untapped sources, plus the lifegain and scry, seemed to be pretty good. Might be able to tune it a bit but it really didn't let me down.
Narset Transcendent was worth the price of admission; I rebounded Dig Through Time at least 7 - 8 times but every other spell was decent(Crux of Fate, Anticipate and Utter End were all frequent fliers). Scry lands and scry off of Drown in Sorrow set up plenty of free card draws. I whiffed no more than a half dozen times all day. The loyalty is also deceptive as rebounding pretty much any removal is oppressive and buys time to build the loyalty back up. The ultimate is conditionally good but against the control mirror the whole package is an all-star.
Utter End was great but I really doubt I'd want to increase them. They helped deal with opposing walkers when the Downfalls were being strained and were my only mainbdeck answer to Mastery of the Unseen (which seems to come in off of Genesis Hydra all-too-often!)
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver continues to crush souls. Could possibly find room for a 3rd, maybe in the board. Took at least one Whisperwood Elemental that won me a game, Stormbreath Dragon, etc.
Anticipate was a house. This is the filtering that control has been lacking and was bonus value with Narset's rebound. Fixed mana, found answers and just helped advance the board to a place where control was on top. Could see this as a 4-of.
SB:
The singleton Mind Rot should probably never have taken a slot; I just wanted to live the dream once and rebound it against a control player. Never happened, couldn't bring myself to board it in..
Ojutai's Command was cute, it came up a couple of times and once even bought me a crucial turn vs a mono-red aggro player. This could easily be another Negate or Disdainful Stroke. Or perhaps Silumgar's Command for the mirror.(?)
Surge of Righteousness was effective in the matches where I wanted it. Great SB card. Between Drown, Surge and Nyx-Fleece, the aggressive decks were pretty manageable.
Lastly, Self-Inflicted Wound was average at best. It should have been additional Ultimate Price and maybe another Erase or Utter End. I did get to kill a Sylvan Caryatid vs Temur one match and if Dragonlord Ojutai becomes a common finisher then the relevance of this card could go up.
I also think that there can be a pretty strong argument for including Abrupt Decay, at least a couple, mainboard. Taking your meta into account, having an uncounterable answer is powerful in many match-ups. With the banning of TC, this may be less of an issue now. Still, it is a highly versatile card with little drawback. It also one of the very few cards that can get out from under a Counterbalance which gives it some extra mileage in my books.
You may want more discard somewhere in the 75. I would be pretty hard pressed to play with anything less than 6 discard spells mainboard. This is a matter of preference but most current lists appear to have 5-7 discard main.
I'm not fond of Punishing Fire in this list. It can be a blowout vs some decks but it can be pretty slow to setup and feels like the mana base is getting thin to include R for these 3 cards. Mox Diamonds help, for sure, but this looks like a weird marriage between Jund and Rock. A few cards away from converting to Jund; BBE and a cpl of bolts?
I absolutely dislike the citp tap lands and, to a lesser degree, Dryad Arbor. I concede that Dryad Arbor has plenty surprise power as a blocker off of fetchland and occasionally can provide mana ramp in combination with the GSZ. Speed is the issue; this deck needs to disrupt what an opponent is doing as quickly as possible and then long enough to grind out a win. Having to wait a turn to activate these lands can be a pretty big price to pay.
Choke is so backbreaking vs the blue matchups, it is worth including in the SB for a chance that your discard clears a safe path and it resolves. Usually follows with a pretty quick win, though Daze can get some extra value out of previously tapped Islands. Choke is a meta specific card and in an underdeveloped meta then it's value typically goes down significantly.
Pernicious Deed is another card that I would be hard pressed not to have somewhere in the 75. The collateral damage can be a problem but it is usually worth it because you use it when you need an answer to almost anything. Unless you have a really good idea of what you are playing against, it is good to have some generic answers. Pernicious Deed, Maelstrom Pulse, and Abrupt Decay are the generic answers you are looking for.
Curious if anyone has SB suggestions for Sneak & Show; I very rarely have trouble with anything but combo though Sneak & Show is pretty under-represented in my meta. A couple of the better pilots keep it as their money deck to dust off for bigger events and I haven't been playing my competitive decks recently so I'm unsure of the matchup. Is Containment Priest the new go-to card for SB's? I picked a couple up initially but don't have a playset and would like to avoid the other $50 I need to finish it if the card has been underwhelming in practice. So who has experience with this matchup?
Anything else I could be overlooking? I do have some maindeck answers to a creature in off of Show and Tell, like Liliana and the usual package of removal spells. Sneak, otoh, can be problematic as it dodges Abrupt Decay. I run a few Vindicate mainboard and pack a couple of Golgari Charm SB but I'm concerned that a Show into Sneak into Emrakul is pretty much GG before I get a chance to do anything about it. Containment Priest is the only clean answer I can think of here, other than some clunky cards that I'd like to avoid/will be too slow like Ensnaring Bridge.
Also, Khalar89, how did you like the Stoneforge Mystic package? How did you do at your event?
Depends upon your SB, Planeswalker_Wizard; I run a wishboard using Enlightened Tutor, fetching Serenity or Aura of Silence(usually in that order) to seal the deal against Affinity, other artifact-dependent decks(MUD, etc) and Enchantress. If I suspect a large Affinity showing then I also pack a single Powder Keg for additional insulation because Keg at 0 is a huge beating, though that is a meta specific call. Any one of those cards could potentially destroy your own creatures or equipment but you're never going to use your "hail mary" SB cards unless you actually need them to get into the game or knock your opponent out of it, re: if you lose a Jitte but destroy an opponent's entire board then the end result is going to be worth the sacrifice you have to make to get there.
In Legacy though.. this is a powerful new tool to curb one of blue's most significant contributions to the format.
Spirit of the Labyrinth is a great addition to D&T! Sad that it doesn't follow the traditional "hate-bear" power/toughness of 2/2 as it is susceptible to all the hate D&T had to face before (Sulfur Elemental, Dread of Night, etc) plus the additional hate being thrown around for TNN presently(re: Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, etc)
Looking forward to these new additions from this latest set though, great to see so much potential change coming down the pipe!
Like many others posted previously, I don't purchase foils or foreign cards but I do buy pedigree. Original prints, old borders, that type of thing brings back the early years of Magic's history for me and I don't mind paying to get the exact same cards I played(and trashed!) when I was introduced to the game.
Holy Light
Zealous Persecution
Black Sun's Zenith
Toxic Deluge
Engineered Plague
et cetera, etc
lol
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of True-Name Nemesis and think that it will definitely have an impact on the format. It isn't going to replace goofy though. It will have less of an impact than many other cards that have been released in the last year.
It is a great card, sure to become a regular sighting in Legacy, but it isn't going to become a format defining or warping card. At the end of the day it is just an evasive 3/1 beater for 3 and that puts it at a very crowded spot for CMC.
I do have high hopes for it in Fish and I really do hope that it explodes on the scene as I've made a bit of an investment in some just off of speculation.
I also recommend, if spending anything over $100, to shop around the WHOLE spectrum of sources. Determine S&H, etc, to figure out the total cost of the purchase. I'm in Canada so I use FacetoFaceGames.com a lot and I have been a very frequent customer of CoolStuffInc.com over the last few years since returning to Magic. Also done orders with SCG(most expensive, but sometimes they have it when nobody else does!), Stronghold Games, AdventuresON, ChannelFireball, etc. and used Ebay extensively to "get the deals".
For selling cards, Ebay will give you the most value if you own "money" cards, with rare exceptions of online stores offering good value(esp with store credit bonus) when they are actively trying to build stock in an "it" card that got hot overnight.
Everyone else has already covered the deck considerations pretty well. A lot of the time, the deck you think you want to play will turn out to not meet your expectations or just end up being a playstyle that quickly gets unfun(boring). Proxy a deck or select cards before diving in - unless you can afford to just pick up format staples at regular intervals, it is best to make sure you are investing into a colour pie you will really enjoy playing in the long run.
Welcome to the best format in Magic!
[EDIT] Check out Spooky's thread and feel free to link-surf from it. Great introduction to Legacy, plenty of fun budget decks that could be very competitive at a local level!
Cute walker, really does seem to be in the same power range as Ajani which is also dependent upon other cards to do anything but durdle around and both of the 3cc walkers come down with 5 loyalty.
I'd consider this fringe playable - it isn't going to be in every deck but it could definitely get out of control if left unanswered. Really depends upon the opponent's deck.
Bryant piloted it very well under the camera, great to watch the master spin his craft!
Awesome to see a couple of different storm combo decks might break into the top 8!