A lot of people are citing Alpha commons/uncommons as iconic. What are some iconic cards from Masques through Onslaught block? What were some of the Standard defining cards of that era? Wasn't Astral Slide a huge deal? And Terminate?
Given the data in the op have we considered player density and market saturation. There probably are a greater number of players who played cards that line up with the original data which would certainly make the more recent stuff more iconic to a greater number of players.
This comment is spot on. The full name of IMA should be "Iconic to players from 2009 through 2015 Masters". Wizards didn't bother catering to players from the first half of Magic because they're likely not playing anymore.
With this logic, IMA should appeal to me. After leaving Magic in 1998, I came back in 2009 and have played since. However, I interact with cards from all sets from playing Legacy and Commander and grooming my collection. Bottom line is "iconic" means many things to many people. But as TetzaHexlog says, it likely means "2009-2015" for the vast majority of people.
These all seem like plausible explanations. Honestly, I was shocked to learn that Masters 25 was scheduled for release when Iconic Masters was supposed to be just that. Hopefully it's like Windows Millennium Edition and Windows 2000, two similar names released around the same time but the former is awkward (Iconic) and the latter is awesome (25).
Maybe we're not yet seeing that the designed draft archetypes are what's so iconic. Angels, Demons, and Dragons seem great, but Sphinxes are an awkward substitute for Merfolk. There really are a lot of Hydras so I'll give that a thumbs up. But what are the other draft archetypes? Wait for it.................. Walls. Seriously. Personally, I love Walls and created a killer 60 card casual Wall deck, but is that really an iconic archetype?
How can Iconic Masters be so iconic when 85% of its cards originated in the recent half of Magic's history? I compiled and analyzed the list of sets in which each IMA card was first printed and was surprised at what I found.
85% of its cards originated in Modern, from late 2003 to 2015.
55% of its cards originated in "MxTeen" Modern, from M10 in 2009 to Dragons of Tarkir in 2015.
Only 15% of its cards originated in pre-Modern, from 1993 to 2003.
Surely the most iconic cards include those which were mandatory Standard staples throughout all rotations of the format. So why did Wizards ignore the old greats from the first eleven years of its history? I didn't play back then, so which cards (off the reserve list) impacted the first decade of Standard to make them iconic?
Looking closer, IMA cards originated primarily from very few blocks:
10% from Tarkir block, 2014-2015
10% from Zendikar block, 2009-2010
8% from Return to Ravnica block, 2012-2013
7.5% from Time Spiral block, 2006-2007
7.5% from Ravnica block, 2005-2006
Almost 44% of the cards came from only five blocks (covering only four planes at that). Were Tarkir and Zendikar really that iconic to deserve such over-representation in this set? What is it about pre-Modern blocks, and even Alara, that got them excluded?
To me, Iconic Masters seems more like "Expensive 2010s Masters and Mana Drain". I would have loved to go back to the over powered Urza's block or the Legacy storyline heroes from Invasion block. Sure, Shivan Dragon has been reprinted a million times, but how could a set featuring iconic dragons leave it out?
What other cards or iconic flavors would you have rather seen in Iconic Masters? And why do you think Wizards focused so much on 2009-2015?
Of course, Wizards can't reprint the Revised dual lands due to the reserve list. Instead, they could have created decent proxies for Commander players by making functional (and humorous) reprints for their non-legal set Unstable.
Imagine this gangster inspired alleyway:
Name: Underground, See?
Type: Land - Island Swamp
Text: T: Add U or B to your mana pool. You may not have a card named Underground Sea in your deck.
Flavor text: "Psst, hey you. Want some dual lands? Special deal just for you..."
Or this film drama inspired tearjerker:
Name: Volcanic Eye Land
Type: Land - Island Mountain
Text: T: Add U or R to your mana pool. You may not have a card named Volcanic Island in your deck.
Flavor text: On this island, the mere mention of "Beaches" triggers an eruption of tears.
The trick is that you can't have both the Unstable dual and the Revised dual in the same deck. That way, people who DO have Revised duals can't overpower their casual decks with more copies of them.
If these were in Unstable, Wizards would sell vast amounts of the product. And would it really hurt the market for Revised duals since they're clearly not tournament legal? Maybe a little, but those priced need to take a hit (I say even though I own five copies of each Revised dual).
So, what other Unstable wordplay dual lands can you come up with? I'd love to see the art and flavor text for "Buy You", "Ton Draw", and "Bad Lands". Because seriously, we all know gamers who need to visit "Scrub Land" once in a while.
Thanks to everyone for their input. This forum page is a good place to hash out this issue, leaving the Wikipedia Talk page for the more condensed input.
I would put the block as another column and make the table sortable
This is the best solution, allowing the table to be viewed by block or chronologically. When I get some time, I'll try to draft that. Unfortunately, I have no special tools for editing Wikipedia, so I'm doing it all in the raw markup which is pretty intense.
Wikipedia needs your help. Should it show Coldsnap as part of the Ice Age block or chronologically below Dissension?
The Wikipedia list of Magic sets contains a table of all expansion sets (non-core sets). This table groups sets within their blocks. It has always grouped Ice Age, Alliances, and Coldsnap within the Ice Age block. According to the Internet Archive, it has been listed this way since at least September 1, 2009.
On April 27, 2017, a Wikipedia user decided to move Coldsnap from the Ice Age block down to its chronological place between Dissension and Time Spiral. While doing so, the user also removed the Ice Age block heading. I cited the Wizards announcement of Coldsnap to justify my restoring Coldsnap within the Ice Age block, but my restoration was undone. This change is being discussed on the article's Talk page.
I bring the question to MTG Salvation community: Should the Wikipedia page list the expansion sets by block or strictly chronologically? Answer the poll, reply in the comments, and please share any information about how the Wikipedia moderators may resolve such an issue.
Thanks again for all the input. You're right, I need a way to do damage to a flyer without hurting all my other birds. I'm actually running an aggressive deck with cheap attackers and tokens. I'm giving highest priority to reusable and/or really big sources of damage.
Divine Deflection beats Hail of Arrows because it also prevents damage. Guilty Conscience on Swans is brilliant, drawing me four cards each time it deals damage. Acorn Catapult is also brilliant for pinging Swans, giving me more tokens for my token deck and letting me reuse it from Derevi untap triggers.
It would be great to prevent combat damage done to Swans, stopping my opponents from drawing cards by attacking with their huge creatures or voltron commanders. Blinding Powder is reusable and gives me political ability to let some opponents draw cards. Dolmen Gate prevents opponents from drawing by blocking with big creatures, and also helps my other creatures.
All the other permanents which prevent damage to a creature also prevent damage from it, which I'd like to avoid because it would be nice for Swans to deal damage.
Actually, Derevi's triggers resolve during the combat damage step.
Thanks for the clarification. So I could resolve Derevi's untap triggers after damage during the combat damage step to untap and reuse Femeref Archers to hit Swans many times.
Thanks, I hadn't thought of doing damage to attacking creatures. The archers are great. If Derevi gave me multiple untap triggers in my end of combat step, could I use the Archers multiple times to hit my own attacking Swans? Are they still "attacking" after combat damage, but before my second main phase?
I'm building a Derevi, Empyrial Tactician Bird tribal / token deck which is semi-competitive but also flavorful and fun. I'd love to add Swans of Bryn Argoll. With only Bant colors, artifacts, and lands, how can I use it to benefit me and hurt my opponents?
Glarecaster is a Bird which could redirect damage from me to Swans in order to help deck my opponent. Pariah and Pariah's Shield also redirect damage to deck my opponent. Lure on Swans would help deck my opponent and allow all my other attackers through unblocked.
How can I use Swans to draw myself cards? I don't have red for Seismic Assault. I do have Blasting Station to sac bird tokens and synergize with Derevi's untap ability. What other ways can I deal damage to Swans in Bant, artifact, and lands?
To my mind, I'd rather use good recursion once than bad recursion multiple times.
That answers it. Thanks for all the examples, everyone. I'll continue to think through the scenarios and add recursion cards to my decks.
Yes, the deck I'm asking about is Derevi, Empyrial Tactician bird tribal. I hope to use Order of Whiteclay with Derevi's many tap triggers when my bird tokens damage opponents. Hopefully opponents will ignore Order since it's not a staple... until it recurs my non-token attackers which just died during my attack.
I'm also going to add Sword of Light and Shadow. It is reusable recursion which seems harder to kill because it's not a creature. I'm betting that opposing decks run less removal for artifacts (and enchantments) than they do for creatures.
Thanks for all the info. My decks are all built around token spam, so I never considered reusing creatures that die when I can just make more. Now I see the bonus of recursion giving me even one extra ETB trigger for Cathars' Crusade or Champion of Lambholt.
Under average circumstances, should I expect to use a recursion trick only once per game? I'm a pessimist and don't expect to have all the pieces for an infinite recursion combo all at once. Would it be better to run permanents with reusable recursion like Emeria Shepherd, Genesis, Order of Whiteclay, Reya Dawnbringer, or Sword of Light and Shadow?
For years, I've know that Eternal Witness is a staple. Is it just another single-use Regrowth or are there more useful ways to use it?
For now, I'll add Reveillark, Karmic Guide, some Alters, and on-theme Seaside Haven to my deck. Thanks for the lesson in recursion.
For example, Karmic Guide is a Commander staple but the obscure Breath of Life does the same thing for one less mana. I assume Karmic Guide is better because it's easier to reuse. So, how do I reliably reuse it?
Reusing Karmic Guide must require a second card, so it seems unlikely that I'll have that second card in my hand or in play. To increase my chances of having that special card, will I need a bunch of cards which reuse Karmic Guide? Sounds like I'm working pretty hard to reuse the reuser.
Fundamentally, graveyard recursion needs cards in the graveyard. So now I need sacrifice outlets, mills, and/or discards. Phyrexian Altar seems great, but it's just another card I need to assemble this combo.
What cards are so good that they are worth all this trouble to reuse? Creatures with ETB effects seem like the goal, but do we bother reusing non-creatures?
It seems way easier to blink instead of recur from the graveyard. Adding a single Deadeye Navigator seems way easier than adding a whole package of recursion and sac outlet cards.
So what am I missing? How is graveyard recursion stronger and more reliable than a single Deadeye Navigator?
Hello, I'd like to learn the techniques employed by competitive decks to improve my own. I'm currently working on a GWU / Bant Derevi, Empyrial Tactician Bird tribal deck, so examples in those colors would be most helpful.
What are the common methods for using and abusing graveyard recursion?
Should I expect to reuse a card in my graveyard once per game, once per turn, or as often as I want?
How can graveyard reuse be done efficiently, applying to large portions of the deck instead of requiring multiple specific cards?
Can you professionals help me understand the full utility of Tranquil Thicket. In which situations and matchups is it most helpful? When can it safely be sided out?
Here's what I know about Thicket:
1. It saves a Loam in the graveyard in response to Surgical Extraction and other graveyard hate (but not Extirpate?). Should you go out of your way to get and keep Thicket in your hand in case this happens?
2. It lets you draw or dredge. I always cycle Thicket and bring it back with Loam when I have both, but that's mana intensive.
This comment is spot on. The full name of IMA should be "Iconic to players from 2009 through 2015 Masters". Wizards didn't bother catering to players from the first half of Magic because they're likely not playing anymore.
With this logic, IMA should appeal to me. After leaving Magic in 1998, I came back in 2009 and have played since. However, I interact with cards from all sets from playing Legacy and Commander and grooming my collection. Bottom line is "iconic" means many things to many people. But as TetzaHexlog says, it likely means "2009-2015" for the vast majority of people.
Maybe we're not yet seeing that the designed draft archetypes are what's so iconic. Angels, Demons, and Dragons seem great, but Sphinxes are an awkward substitute for Merfolk. There really are a lot of Hydras so I'll give that a thumbs up. But what are the other draft archetypes? Wait for it.................. Walls. Seriously. Personally, I love Walls and created a killer 60 card casual Wall deck, but is that really an iconic archetype?
What are the other archetypes in Iconic Masters?
85% of its cards originated in Modern, from late 2003 to 2015.
55% of its cards originated in "MxTeen" Modern, from M10 in 2009 to Dragons of Tarkir in 2015.
Only 15% of its cards originated in pre-Modern, from 1993 to 2003.
Surely the most iconic cards include those which were mandatory Standard staples throughout all rotations of the format. So why did Wizards ignore the old greats from the first eleven years of its history? I didn't play back then, so which cards (off the reserve list) impacted the first decade of Standard to make them iconic?
Looking closer, IMA cards originated primarily from very few blocks:
10% from Tarkir block, 2014-2015
10% from Zendikar block, 2009-2010
8% from Return to Ravnica block, 2012-2013
7.5% from Time Spiral block, 2006-2007
7.5% from Ravnica block, 2005-2006
Almost 44% of the cards came from only five blocks (covering only four planes at that). Were Tarkir and Zendikar really that iconic to deserve such over-representation in this set? What is it about pre-Modern blocks, and even Alara, that got them excluded?
To me, Iconic Masters seems more like "Expensive 2010s Masters and Mana Drain". I would have loved to go back to the over powered Urza's block or the Legacy storyline heroes from Invasion block. Sure, Shivan Dragon has been reprinted a million times, but how could a set featuring iconic dragons leave it out?
What other cards or iconic flavors would you have rather seen in Iconic Masters? And why do you think Wizards focused so much on 2009-2015?
Imagine this gangster inspired alleyway:
Name: Underground, See?
Type: Land - Island Swamp
Text: T: Add U or B to your mana pool. You may not have a card named Underground Sea in your deck.
Flavor text: "Psst, hey you. Want some dual lands? Special deal just for you..."
Or this film drama inspired tearjerker:
Name: Volcanic Eye Land
Type: Land - Island Mountain
Text: T: Add U or R to your mana pool. You may not have a card named Volcanic Island in your deck.
Flavor text: On this island, the mere mention of "Beaches" triggers an eruption of tears.
The trick is that you can't have both the Unstable dual and the Revised dual in the same deck. That way, people who DO have Revised duals can't overpower their casual decks with more copies of them.
If these were in Unstable, Wizards would sell vast amounts of the product. And would it really hurt the market for Revised duals since they're clearly not tournament legal? Maybe a little, but those priced need to take a hit (I say even though I own five copies of each Revised dual).
So, what other Unstable wordplay dual lands can you come up with? I'd love to see the art and flavor text for "Buy You", "Ton Draw", and "Bad Lands". Because seriously, we all know gamers who need to visit "Scrub Land" once in a while.
This is the best solution, allowing the table to be viewed by block or chronologically. When I get some time, I'll try to draft that. Unfortunately, I have no special tools for editing Wikipedia, so I'm doing it all in the raw markup which is pretty intense.
The Wikipedia list of Magic sets contains a table of all expansion sets (non-core sets). This table groups sets within their blocks. It has always grouped Ice Age, Alliances, and Coldsnap within the Ice Age block. According to the Internet Archive, it has been listed this way since at least September 1, 2009.
On April 27, 2017, a Wikipedia user decided to move Coldsnap from the Ice Age block down to its chronological place between Dissension and Time Spiral. While doing so, the user also removed the Ice Age block heading. I cited the Wizards announcement of Coldsnap to justify my restoring Coldsnap within the Ice Age block, but my restoration was undone. This change is being discussed on the article's Talk page.
I bring the question to MTG Salvation community: Should the Wikipedia page list the expansion sets by block or strictly chronologically? Answer the poll, reply in the comments, and please share any information about how the Wikipedia moderators may resolve such an issue.
Divine Deflection beats Hail of Arrows because it also prevents damage.
Guilty Conscience on Swans is brilliant, drawing me four cards each time it deals damage.
Acorn Catapult is also brilliant for pinging Swans, giving me more tokens for my token deck and letting me reuse it from Derevi untap triggers.
It would be great to prevent combat damage done to Swans, stopping my opponents from drawing cards by attacking with their huge creatures or voltron commanders.
Blinding Powder is reusable and gives me political ability to let some opponents draw cards.
Dolmen Gate prevents opponents from drawing by blocking with big creatures, and also helps my other creatures.
All the other permanents which prevent damage to a creature also prevent damage from it, which I'd like to avoid because it would be nice for Swans to deal damage.
Thanks for the clarification. So I could resolve Derevi's untap triggers after damage during the combat damage step to untap and reuse Femeref Archers to hit Swans many times.
Aetherflux Reservoir - Since my deck uses lifegain, I could draw 50 cards off Swans or kill an opponent.
Bow of Nylea
Divine Retribution
Freyalise Supplicant - Anthem effects pump my birds for more damage, and it's a sac outlet.
Hail of Arrows - White Braingeyser.
Razormane Masticore - Draw four cards per turn and a decent attacker too.
Sword of the Ages - Seems strong in token decks with anthem effects.
Talon of Pain - Mana intensive, but on the bird theme.
Trophy Hunter - Doubles as a sac outlet.
Glarecaster is a Bird which could redirect damage from me to Swans in order to help deck my opponent.
Pariah and Pariah's Shield also redirect damage to deck my opponent.
Lure on Swans would help deck my opponent and allow all my other attackers through unblocked.
How can I use Swans to draw myself cards? I don't have red for Seismic Assault. I do have Blasting Station to sac bird tokens and synergize with Derevi's untap ability. What other ways can I deal damage to Swans in Bant, artifact, and lands?
Thanks for your input.
That answers it. Thanks for all the examples, everyone. I'll continue to think through the scenarios and add recursion cards to my decks.
Yes, the deck I'm asking about is Derevi, Empyrial Tactician bird tribal. I hope to use Order of Whiteclay with Derevi's many tap triggers when my bird tokens damage opponents. Hopefully opponents will ignore Order since it's not a staple... until it recurs my non-token attackers which just died during my attack.
I'm also going to add Sword of Light and Shadow. It is reusable recursion which seems harder to kill because it's not a creature. I'm betting that opposing decks run less removal for artifacts (and enchantments) than they do for creatures.
Under average circumstances, should I expect to use a recursion trick only once per game? I'm a pessimist and don't expect to have all the pieces for an infinite recursion combo all at once. Would it be better to run permanents with reusable recursion like Emeria Shepherd, Genesis, Order of Whiteclay, Reya Dawnbringer, or Sword of Light and Shadow?
For years, I've know that Eternal Witness is a staple. Is it just another single-use Regrowth or are there more useful ways to use it?
For now, I'll add Reveillark, Karmic Guide, some Alters, and on-theme Seaside Haven to my deck. Thanks for the lesson in recursion.
Reusing Karmic Guide must require a second card, so it seems unlikely that I'll have that second card in my hand or in play. To increase my chances of having that special card, will I need a bunch of cards which reuse Karmic Guide? Sounds like I'm working pretty hard to reuse the reuser.
Fundamentally, graveyard recursion needs cards in the graveyard. So now I need sacrifice outlets, mills, and/or discards. Phyrexian Altar seems great, but it's just another card I need to assemble this combo.
What cards are so good that they are worth all this trouble to reuse? Creatures with ETB effects seem like the goal, but do we bother reusing non-creatures?
It seems way easier to blink instead of recur from the graveyard. Adding a single Deadeye Navigator seems way easier than adding a whole package of recursion and sac outlet cards.
So what am I missing? How is graveyard recursion stronger and more reliable than a single Deadeye Navigator?
What are the common methods for using and abusing graveyard recursion?
Should I expect to reuse a card in my graveyard once per game, once per turn, or as often as I want?
How can graveyard reuse be done efficiently, applying to large portions of the deck instead of requiring multiple specific cards?
Here's what I know about Thicket:
1. It saves a Loam in the graveyard in response to Surgical Extraction and other graveyard hate (but not Extirpate?). Should you go out of your way to get and keep Thicket in your hand in case this happens?
2. It lets you draw or dredge. I always cycle Thicket and bring it back with Loam when I have both, but that's mana intensive.
Paying G to draw one card seems to be operating at a much smaller scale than Tireless Tracker and Courser of Kruphix.
So, what else does Thicket do that makes it a mandatory component of the deck? Thanks for your input.