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    posted a message on Is the Bible's way of salvation correct?
    Good summary. Also "morality" is just a fuzzy concept the way most people present it. It implies that good actions and bad actions must be externally validated in some way. Things clear up a lot when you ask "good for what?" What are good ways to behave when our behavior affects others?

    Once you start thinking of the result we care about it, the result we'd like to achieve for how society operates, it becomes pretty clear why a god isn't necessary to determine that murder is bad. Murdering other people for no reason, or just for kicks, has some pretty obvious negative consequences for the people affected.
    Posted in: Religion
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    posted a message on libertarianism.
    @MTGTCG

    Where do governments come from? Everywhere in the world started with anarchy, with no governments around. People then gathered power and declared themselves kings, or any other form of government you dislike. Obviously it becomes rather hard to just "compete" with these existing powerhouses that you think are abusing their power, or else you wouldn't be on here complaining about it.

    Your system obviously doesn't work. It doesn't function the way you say it does. We have several thousand years of human history as proof.

    Governments are not some magical curse cast by a witch that can be broken by blog posts. It's just people in power forcing other people to do what they want. If I and a group of people in an anarchist society decided to pool our money to pay for a private security force, then decided we would force you to pay for it as well and would send our private security force after you if you didn't... That's police. That's taxes. What you gonna do about it?

    Your kneejerk reaction is to say, "Well I'll make my security force and it'll be so much better and bigger and cooler than yours." Okay then, do it. Do it right now, in the real world. What's stopping you?

    The whole world started with absolute freedom and without any governments buddy. Where did they come from? Clearly absolute freedom DOES produce abusive power structures despite what you claim. So how did that happen?



    Rich Guy: "I'm a rich guy with a gigantic private security force and I've conquered or purchased huge amounts of land."

    Libertarian: "No problem."

    Rich Guy: "I'm also going to label myself a King."

    Libertarian: "No! Now you're suddenly a government and that's bad!"



    Posted in: Debate
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    posted a message on Why continue to live if you will eventually die?
    Quote from AzureDuality »
    Why stall the inevitable? I mean, if life is about preventing suffering as much as possible then wouldn't death be the best way of doing that? It seems to me a puzzling aspect of life, that it continues to propagate despite the fact that it will end soon is rather confounding.


    That's like asking, "Why eat a cake when it's fresh when it's just going to go stale eventually?"
    Posted in: Philosophy
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    posted a message on libertarianism.
    Every society in the world started in anarchy. Every single one became a government. That's why we have governments controlling the world and running everywhere. Wink

    *People choose to create governments of their own will*. You can establish a starting circumstance, but anarchy by definition refuses to enforce laws. People given perfect freedom will choose to form an organized structure, either for defense or for power or both. That *always* happens, throughout all of human history across the entire world. You can claim it won't happen, but you're denying the evidence of the entire world - which always show governments arising in every society that starts in anarchy.
    Posted in: Debate
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    posted a message on libertarianism.
    Quote from MTGTCG »
    1. Markets would bring about common law.

    2. Who wants to subscribe to a rights enforcement agency that supports bad people? The answer is bad people. There are more good people than bad people, so good REAs beat bad REAs. It's not that hard...

    3. You would betray the cartel secretly.


    Your central error is assuming that "governments" are some mystical non-human-produced force. Rich dudes amassing power and conquering people is how you get kings in the first place, which is a system of government. We started with anarchy everywhere, and now there are governments basically everywhere. You suggest that people will come together in organized resistance against people who are abusing their powers. You're correct, that's what governments are. That's what a police force is.

    Clearly every group of people starts in anarchy and eventually results in governments forming. If you think this is a bad thing, then you have to admit anarchies DO tend towards bad things. You're caught in a contradiction.
    Posted in: Debate
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    posted a message on Is the Bible's way of salvation correct?
    Quote from jaredpeyton »
    What do you guys believe about salvation? I Read articles such as http://biblereasons.com/salvation-and-being-saved/. This is really getting to me. I've been thinking about life and the afterlife lately. Does Jesus save us? Has anyone else thought about this stuff? Looking for opinions. Thanks for anything you can share.


    Fortunately, there is no compelling reason to believe that an afterlife exists. All our experience indicates that a person's mind and identity is dependent on and determined by their physical brain. You don't exist before your brain develops. Taking brain damage can radically change a personality. You can lose a limb and keep on living, but destroy the brain and it's all gone.

    We're pretty clearly software and the brains are our hardware. Destroy the hard drive of a computer and ask if the data that lived on it goes to an afterlife. Obviously there's no reason to think so, and it would invalidate our understanding of how things work.

    This shouldn't be troubling, unless you live in terror of your memories of how it felt to not exist for billions and billions of years. I personally don't remember that experience as being too troubling.
    Posted in: Religion
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    posted a message on libertarianism.
    The argument that the holocaust is what happens when you care about people is a great example of the mental game of twister that Libertarians have to consciously perform. Even if building a military was established as a bad thing, that wouldn't demonstrate that caring about people is bad. It would just mean that building a military is a bad way to help people.

    This is a new level of facepalm.
    Posted in: Debate
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    posted a message on libertarianism.
    @Typho0nn. I think I missed where you listed the number of people that have been executed in modern Australia as punishment for not paying taxes. I'll settle for just 3 examples.
    Posted in: Debate
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    posted a message on libertarianism.
    Yep. Evolution's got to do at least some of it, because any species with a murder rate higher than its birth rate is going to do pretty poorly in the Darwin sweepstakes.
    Posted in: Debate
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    posted a message on libertarianism.
    Quote from DJK3654 »
    Quote from Stairc »
    Are really counting revolutions and insurrections that came from refusing to pay?


    Nope. We're counting people executed by the government in modern times for tax evasion. Not people that chose on their own to wage rebellion because of (insert reason here). Environmental terrorists that are killed during their own attacks aren't executed for supporting the environment. They're killed in action, or executed in places with the death penalty, because they're trying to murder people.

    If you tell someone to come to work on time, or else they'll be fired... And they retaliate by coming in with a gun and trying to kill you, but security takes them down first... They weren't threatened with *death* for failing to come in late. They were threatened with being fired.

    So yes, I'm looking for a list of the executions the government has carried out as punishment for tax evasion.

    We've been there with typho0nn. He considers be killed for violently resisting punishments as meaning the offence for the original punishment is under threat of death.


    Is that true Typho0nn? In that case, if I choose to violently resist your argument and am killed because of it - you're threatening my disagreement with DEATH?! That makes you sound like quite the big brother police state dictator. Sure you want to stick to that argument?
    Posted in: Debate
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