Duplicate legends only nuke each other on the same side of the field. When a dupe does show up on the same side, the controller chooses which to keep.
P1 has a Ruric Thar.
P2 casts Ruric Thar. They each have one now, nothing gets nuked.
P1 casts Dead Weight on P2's Ruric Thar.
P2 casts another Ruric Thar, and now has two on the field. One will die immediately as a SBA, but P2 gets to choose which goes and which stays, so he trashes the enchanted one, and is left with a fresh Ruric Thar.
For more fun, look at Olivia.
P1 has Olivia in play with 10 counters on her. He is currently tapped out.
P2 casts Olivia from hand, and has 5 mana up, including BB. Tap 3BB, steal control of P1's Olivia, now there are two on the same side of the field. P2 chooses to trash the newly-acquired one, which goes to P1's yard, leaving the new one in play on P2's side.
It works the same for PWers, for all intents and purposes. Each player can have a PWer of the same type on the field, but only one of each. If you cast a new one while you have an existing one on the field of the same type, you have to choose one to immediately put in the graveyard.
Note that the new PWer is a new game object, which HASN'T used a loyalty ability yet. -2 your Sorin, cast a new Sorin, -2 new Sorin, enjoy your two emblems created on the same turn for the low cost of a duplicate PWer card you couldn't have cast anyway under the current rules.
Or -2 Sorin for an emblem, cast a new Sorin, +1 him for a Vampire, etc. Planeswalkers shenanigans everywhere
I've been looking for a thread like this. I am determined to make a competitive BW deck without dipping into a third color (they all seem to insist on pulling the deck in a previously established direction, and I have a thing about trying to avoid established lists >.>).
Here's the latest version of the list I've been running. I'd really like to compare notes and card choices.
(On an unrelated note, am I the only one having a hard time resisting the urge to name this deck something very politically incorrect, involving church references? >_<)
It runs like something between midrange and control. Fend off early aggro with spirit tokens and thrulls, extort off of Blind Obedience and Tithe Drinker, and when necessary chump the vampire and gain 2 off the lifelink (if he comes down early and gets to swing, so much the better).
Once I hit four or five mana, things take off. Sorin's Emblem is amazing with just a single copy of Lingering Souls, not to mention the vampires he pops out. If I land a Blood Baron and untap, it's usually GG.
The matchup where I'm having the most trouble, by far, is Gruul aggro. 30+ creatures and Domri Rade, with cheap hasty beaters, Kessig Wolf Run, and Gruul Clan Rampager. Since the creatures are red and green, Blood Baron's value is significantly reduced, and the easy access to trample means that chump blocking with spirits or piddly regenerators doesn't actually save me much life. By the time I begin to stabilize, it's too late.
I really, REALLY want to find a way to make this deck work as straight Orzhov without completely folding to what is becoming a more popular super-aggressive archetype.
I've tried a few other cards that aren't in the current list; some because I just can't fit them and some because I've tried them and they are currently on the bench while I test other stuff. Nothing is necessarily out permanently, I'm still trying to juggle my 60/75.
Tested cards:
Orzhov Charm - The life loss was proving too much of a pain against the decks where I really needed to get rid of creatures. Also, I was occasionally hosed by the need for both colors to cast it.
Blood Scrivener - On paper, he seems so good, he turns the deck into a life-sucking aggro build. In practice, I never got his ability to trigger because he either died or I didn't want/couldn't empty my hand. A 2/1 for 1B that wants to draw you extra cards but never quite manages...doesn't make the cut. I still think he's a good card, but not for my deck.
Sin Collector - This is a meta call. I don't have much control at all in my area, so I cut him from the board. If it were more prevalent, I'd run him in a heartbeat.
Cards I'm considering:
Terminus - the extra sweeper, especially as an early miracle, might be worth it. Also, this one isn't dependent upon swamps. On the flip side, I can't Terminus "for 3" and leave my Blood Baron on the field, which I've done more than once with Mutilate.
Debt to the Deathless - Considering as a 1-of for games that go long. I'm just afraid that I'll never want to see it except for fringe cases where I have a ton of mana and nothing to do with it, which rarely happens, and if it does, I'd probably rather top deck something else.
Vampire Nighthawk - I have no good reason for not having tried this guy, at the very least in the board against aggro. It was an oversight I need to fix ASAP.
Restoration Angel - I'm not really running any good ETB effects (Obzedat doesn't play well with Resto, anyway), so I didn't give my thought to her, but it might be worth it just for the flying butt. And randomly saving a dude is nice, although it doesn't really work against trample, which is one of my biggest weakness right now.
Nevermore - Might be the best way to deal with Ruric Thar?
Pontiff of Blight - Expensive, but a huge back end to block with and the potential to gain back life through excessive extort triggers. Might combo well with token producers if I have the mana to play with. But at 6cmc, he probably doesn't come out quick enough to swing a game back in my favor.
Rhox Faithmender - Another one that I can't really say why I haven't tested. 5 toughness, double life gain on my extorts, and only a 4 drop. Seems good, just have to figure out what to cut for him.
Vizkopa Guildmage - He's another one that looks good on paper, but I just have better things to do with his mana and I'm not trying to run the combo. I might give it a go, though, if the deck evolves in that direction.
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I really like the list in the OP, and I definitely think I need to examine some of your cards in my list. Maybe I'm seeing something just because I want to, and the only thing these two decks have in common is the colors, but I'd be interested to get the feedback and start a discussion with other BW players.
I like the idea, but i feel like you'd get run over by aggro before you ever get started. You aren't running a single sweeper, I'd make room for Mutilate somewhere in the 75. Probably at least one in place of a Debt to the Deathless. If you're casting Debt, it should be for the win, I don't think you'd ever want to see a second copy.
Also, 2-3 Cavern of Souls would probably help against control. Only thing it wouldn't safeguard is Crypt Ghast.
You're playing white and not utilitizng your graveyard, so I see no reason to run Tormod's Crypt over Rest in Peace.
Finally, I'd very strongly suggest some kind of sac effects, probably Renounce the Guilds, actually. It hits exactly nothing in your list, and it can answer the card that will singly hose your entire deck: Blood Baron of Vizkopa.
Seriously, if that guy lands, you're kind of boned. You need a sac effect for him alone.
i cannot believe i didn't think of detention sphere.
but now i'm kind of afraid that control decks will detention sphere my sphere.... the problem is no longer planeswalkers, but control decks in general
Also, the main wincon is already mill, so i like that idea better, i'll try to work jayce in but still maintain the consistency of fog heh
Can't Sphere a Sphere. Have to O Ring it. How much play is O Ring seeing lately, with Sphere sort of upstaging it?
I'm pretty firmly in the Instant Speed Draw camp. Having to choose between playing a slightly less efficient draw spell and having the option to fog if necessary, or playing a denser draw spell that leaves me at the mercy of my opponent for a turn without knowing what kind of tricks he might pull...well, that seems like a pretty simple choice to me. There's a reason Think Twice is in almost every blue deck in standard right now, and Inspiration/Divination are common bin fodder.
I do like the idea of fogging until Gideon ults, but to bring the conversation back to Sphere/ORing (Vraska, Dreadbore, etc.), if I am banking on a PWer as my win con, I want him or her to do something meaningful every turn, not just power up for a few turns and get hosed before "going off".
One other thing to be mindful of. I don't think it's possible to run a consistently successful (competitive) turbofog deck right now without ANY permission. At the very least, I would keep a few Dispels in the board. Why?
Everyone pays attention to the lifegain, and points out how it hoses Sphinx's Revelation (which it totally does, and is the reason it's seeing so much play...okay, and Thragtusk). But the part everyone seems to forget is the other bit, "damage can't be prevented this turn". This means any of your fog effects are useless this turn (regardless of whether you play it before or after the Skullcrack!).
That card is pretty much an auto-lose for turbofog. I don't think many lists mainboard it, but it's in the side of more or less every deck running red. Considering that, and the ability to occasionally hose another player's Revelation or some such, I'd definitely make room for some Dispels (or another counterspell that would fit).
It played about the way I expected. The MVP is, without a doubt, Guttersnipe. Untapping with him on the board is pretty much guaranteed to net you a respectable amount of damage, or other form of card advantage. Not to mention, he IS still a 2/2 beater. Against pretty much every control opponent I played tonight, he marched into the red zone almost as much as he burned face. Absolutely a powerhouse.
If you manage to stick more than one...well, I'm not sure what the right word is, exactly, but it's something resembling hilarious.
Seriously, ALL the hilarity.
Surprisingly, the weakest link was the cyclops. I expected him to be a regular damage burst extravaganza (spear the face, swing 4, all for 2 mana and a card?), but I think the problem is I rarely want to cast my instants and sorceries during my pre-combat main phase. I can pull some silly combat tricks on defense when my opponent attacks into what he figures is just a glorified wall that ends up eating his Flinthoof Boar or Champion of the Parish, but that's not why I want him there. Ultimately, I think running three was the correct move. He was there when I needed a body, occasionally did get to do his attacking thing, and wasn't really ever a terrible card to draw.
Goblin Electromancer wins the award for Most Dedicated Guttersnipe Groupie. What a bonkers combination those two are. And another 2/2 beater, to boot!
Speaking of support gobbos, I was delighted to find in my testing that Lobber Crew performed EXACTLY the way I'd anticipated. Cheap to cast, big butt that blocks all day long, and did a fair bit of damage over the course of each game that he showed up. Occasionally untapping after I cast a cyclops or a charm was just icing on the cake. This guy definitely kept me alive.
I can't really complain about my spell package. I will point out that I ended up siding the last Skullcrack in a ton of my matches, even if I didn't see lifegain. If it was control, obviously I wanted it for the Sphinx Revs. But against aggro, it was still a spear to the face at worst, and a 2-mana Lava Axe much of the time. That **** wins races.
I need to tweak the sideboard a bit, my rough matchups were of the midrange variety, and I'm not entirely certain what to do about it. I had an extremely close game with an American control player who landed a turn 5 Assemble the Legion, which I had very little in the way of answers for. It was a straight up race, and I only managed to eek it out by a single turn because I was fortunate enough to draw into a second Skullcrack (he had 2 mana up and an Elixir of Immortality on the field, I had a Guttersnipe). He was at ten life, I Skullcracked, he countered with elixir, and I responded with 'crack number 2. Talk about drawing the answer
Still pondering between Jace and Ral. I don't have much to take advantage of untapping in this deck (Lobber Crew, I guess?), but another bolt is nothing to sneeze at, not to mention the occasional Time Stretch. On the other hand, Jace == cards, and that is the bottom line with this deck. Fuel, fuel, fuel.
All in all, this deck was a ton of fun to test, and I'm going to sleeve it up for tomorrow's FNM. I'm expecting to run into much more aggro than I did on Cockatrice, so we'll see how that pans out. But I have a good feeling about it. I urge anyone reading this thread to give it a whirl, I think there's potential for something competitive here!
As badly as I want it to work, I just don't think Krenko will ever be more than a janky kitchen table card.
If you really, really want to use him, I'd add Fervor or Hellraiser Goblin so you can fire him off immediately (the odds of him activating if he's not hasty seem...low).
This is much more of the virtual-CA-through-synergy model, with each of your spells doing something else, be it shocking the opponent, unleashing your cyclops-dragon, or untapping your aggro-wall that also happens to be a pinger. Electromancer's role is obvious, as is Jace's.
I think the Lobber Crews are necessary to stave off early aggro, even without a ton of multi-colored spells in the deck. I also think that Dragonshift, once cast, should end the game. It seems reasonable to expect, say, a board with Guttersnipe, Lobber Crew, and Cyclops...tap the crew (1 damage), cast Dragonshift (2 damage from the Snipe), and swing with two 4/4 flyers (the Dragonshift untaps the Crew) and a 7/4 flyer (15 damage), for a total of 18 damage off of that one spell. As such, I don't think you want more than 2 copies (also, it's a horrible topdeck after a sweeper).
Just my thoughts, I would be very interested to see what this sort of deck can really do in a semi-competitive environment. Good luck with yours!
I don't like Coerced Confession, since it can sometimes just be a mill 4 for five, which doesn't push hard enough. This build doesn't seem to mill fast enough, and I'm trying to decide how to orient it better for handling aggro decks. Right now more spot removal and fog banks have had a better run, while stalling out for the mind grind and jace:MA to push the mill objective. I'm on the fence with Mirko; on the one hand I can see a lot of mileage coming from him, but if the deck isn't heavy on creatures he would probably just find himself eating some type of removal. I have him in the sideboard right now, but I'm leaning towards dropping him altogether.
Sadly, I came to the same conclusion about Mirko. The odds of actually connecting with him are pretty pitiful, and when he doesn't connect, you've basically timewalked yourself by casting a 5-drop that doesn't do anything.
First thing that jumps out at me is that you need way more mana. you're running a six drop main and you are basing your deck around a mechanic that wants to have lots of extra mana to dump. I'd say you want a minimum of 24 lands.
Secondly, they gave us an extort "lord" in DGM (Pontiff of Blight), I'd recommend him. remember, each instance of extort that your permanents have trigger separately, so he does something even if all your other creatures already have extort.
Next, if you want to go estort, go all in. that means playing the full setsof the best cards. Basilica Guard is fantastic agaunst aggro, he is an auto-four-of. Crypt Ghast, while fragile for a 4 drop, is probably worth it because of the potential for abuse with all that mana.
As nice as it is to have a 1 drop creature with extort, I would ditch Parasite (or at least move him to the board), and play the full set of Dutiful Thrull. He's so good at shutting down early aggression, which is a major concern for a deck like this.
Blind Obedience is an incredible card, even if it does just turn into a 2-mana extort source (that ignores creature removal).
Consider some kind of sac effects for Blood Baron of Vizkopa, as he is otherwise an immediate auto-loss as soon as he hits the board (you're not too keen on running sweepers here).
Finally, I don't think the Demons or Angel are necessarily bad cards, but they don't fit the same strategy as the rest of the deck. Just my $0.02.
It's a trap because Burn is a terrible removal spell and Turn is useless on its own. They're both really, really situational and then Turn+Burn is 5 mana. Paying 5 mana to kill something is fine if it's Thragtusk or something else that expensive, but it's completely horrible if you have to kill something cheaper--but you're stuck with a crappy shock in hand. What's the point of this? Just play a third color and play removal that doesn't suck.
By this logic, there would be no reason to play any split card. Each side is always overpriced for its specific effect, because you're paying a premium for the flexibility of the card.
And honestly, "paying five mana to kill...Thragtusk" is probably justification by itself to run this card in a deck that relies on bounce or burn to deal with creatures, which are both catastrophic options for one of the staple creatures of the format.
Beating Angel of Serenity is actually really, really simple. You let it come into play, make them choose targets, and then kill it in response. It tries to return the exiled cards first (faceless butcher style) but they're not exiled yet, so then the ETB trigger resolves second and permanently exiles the Angel's targets. Then the Angel is a crappy 7-mana 1-for-1 that exiled 3 creature cards from your opponent's yard and/or board. I'll take that deal for 2-3 mana any day of the week. Screw spending 5 mana to do the same thing. It's not like it's ever a surprise when someone resolves an Angel of Serenity...it's a 7-drop, and reanimation costs 4-5 mana.
This only works if your opponent is bad at Magic. The choice of triggers (up to three) for Angel's ETB trigger is mandatory, but the actual decision to exile or not is made on resolution of the ability. If the Angel gets nuked with the ETB on the stack, the controller just chooses not to exile the targets.
Finally, in a format without Turn to Frog, but with cards like, say, Staticaster, I'll happily pay 3 for the effect.
Other changes are flashbackspells, I feel these spells should be even more powerful since if you use them with flashback they will trigger storm and also be shuffled into the deck(if i understand the rules correctly). Also if you storm into a flashbackspell you can use it again to storm, which seems strong. Maybe I´m overdoing it with the think twice, but it is a strong spell with the amount of Terminus I´m running.
Possibility Storm specifies cards cast from hand, so it will actually ignore cards that are flashed back from the graveyard. So on the one hand, it doesn't synergize the way you want it to, but on the other hand, it synergizes in a different way by sidestepping the Storm (letting you actually know what you're casting when you cast it).
Having played both Pillow Fort and a hardline extort deck, I can say with a great deal of confidence that One Thousand Lashes is not worth running over either Pacifism or Arrest. The extra turn you have to wait to get it into play, or the extra mana you could have to potentially spend elsewhere, is worth more than the damage by a long shot.
I like Defang in the context you provide (Olivia), as well as maybe hosing Boros Reckoner?
This deck is good and you should feel good. I love me some shenanigans. Decks like these make me want to rejoin standard.
I already play standard, but I want to +1 the rest of this statement so hard.
Anyway, have you tried Domri Rade? Over a third of your deck is creatures and you will win 95% of the time after an ultimate.
That said, I don't quite agree with this bit. I just don't feel that 22 creatures is enough to run Domri. I consider him an awesome enabler for straight Gruul aggro (abusing bloodrush), but pretty lackluster for anything else in standard at the moment.
My local meta is extraordinarily aggro-heavy (aristocrats, Naya blitz, zombies), so I would be worried about the early turns, but you do pack a good bit of lifegain if you survive the first three turns...
I'm not 100% sold on the board. W//T is a must, obviously, and I think the Torch Fiends are justified for pretty much the same reason (haaaaaaaate that Orb), not to mention the possible triple play of block a dude, sac to kill an artifact, morbid Brimstone to the face (in magical Xmasland, I know).
I like the idea of Divine Deflection, but I don't want to draw too many of them.
I don't know if it's been mentioned here yet, but Reforge the Soul also seems like a huge card. What I really, really don't want with this deck is to run out of cards before my opponent runs out of life. Seems like going back to seven is usually going to be better for me than my opponent. Just don't want to see it until turn 5 or so, if the game isn't over yet.
Also, I feel like Skullcrack just has to be a 4-of. Lifegain is the devil against this deck, end of story.
I've also been trying to build an effective Dimir deck for the last few days (DGM's contributions to the guild seem...intriguing, and I really think there's something there).
My first attempt was literally straight mill. Mind Sculpt, Breaking, Snapcasters, Consuming Aberration, etc. It showed promise, but not yet realized. I frequently found myself overrun in the first few turns of the game, or stalling in the mid game with a massive Aberration, but no way to swing with it. I ended up just hoping to cast spells until I decked my opponent before he drew a kill spell or fielded enough creatures to swing through my sparse defense.
With that in mind, I'm trying to revamp my original list into something a little more aggressive, probably in the midrange category, using mill to enable a quick kill through damage, and relying on actually decking my opponent as a back-up strategy.
Note that I haven't really figured out what to do about Rest In Peace yet... >_<
Still haven't had a chance to test the above, but I'm eager to do so.
Regardless of what build I settle on, I will say this. The MVP card in this deck has been, without a doubt, Crypt Incursion. In my opinion, that card is what will make any competitive mill deck viable in the current standard meta, if one does ever arise. The amount of life it has provided me (while simultaneously hosing a number of GY-based decks) has been outrageous. There are enough creature based decks out there right now that I feel mainboarding two is the right call; last FNM I kept them in the board, and proceeded to side in every copy on every single match.
The one-of Psychic Spiral is to match any other deck running it as a last-minute answer to mill decks like my own. Also, I find that a number of my games reach a point where we both have significantly sized graveyards, so it can be the deathblow in such a case, as well.
It needs more tuning, for sure, but I'm really enjoying the theme so far.
Duplicate legends only nuke each other on the same side of the field. When a dupe does show up on the same side, the controller chooses which to keep.
P1 has a Ruric Thar.
P2 casts Ruric Thar. They each have one now, nothing gets nuked.
P1 casts Dead Weight on P2's Ruric Thar.
P2 casts another Ruric Thar, and now has two on the field. One will die immediately as a SBA, but P2 gets to choose which goes and which stays, so he trashes the enchanted one, and is left with a fresh Ruric Thar.
For more fun, look at Olivia.
P1 has Olivia in play with 10 counters on her. He is currently tapped out.
P2 casts Olivia from hand, and has 5 mana up, including BB. Tap 3BB, steal control of P1's Olivia, now there are two on the same side of the field. P2 chooses to trash the newly-acquired one, which goes to P1's yard, leaving the new one in play on P2's side.
It works the same for PWers, for all intents and purposes. Each player can have a PWer of the same type on the field, but only one of each. If you cast a new one while you have an existing one on the field of the same type, you have to choose one to immediately put in the graveyard.
Note that the new PWer is a new game object, which HASN'T used a loyalty ability yet. -2 your Sorin, cast a new Sorin, -2 new Sorin, enjoy your two emblems created on the same turn for the low cost of a duplicate PWer card you couldn't have cast anyway under the current rules.
Or -2 Sorin for an emblem, cast a new Sorin, +1 him for a Vampire, etc. Planeswalkers shenanigans everywhere
Here's the latest version of the list I've been running. I'd really like to compare notes and card choices.
(On an unrelated note, am I the only one having a hard time resisting the urge to name this deck something very politically incorrect, involving church references? >_<)
4x Godless Shrine
4x Isolate Chapel
2x Vault of the Archangel
10x Swamp
4x Plains
Creatures (16):
3x Dutiful Thrull
4x Tithe Drinker
4x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2x Obzedat, Ghost Council
2x Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts
1x Griselbrand
1x Orzhov Keyrune
1x Moonsilver Spear
Planeswalkers (2):
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Enchantments (2):
2x Blind Obedience
Other Spells (14):
2x Tragic Slip
3x Sign in Blood
4x Lingering Souls
4x Mutilate
1x Obzedat's Aid
2x Tragic Slip
1x Blind Obedience
2x Rest in Peace
2x High Priest of Penance
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Tribute to Hunger
2x Profit // Loss
It runs like something between midrange and control. Fend off early aggro with spirit tokens and thrulls, extort off of Blind Obedience and Tithe Drinker, and when necessary chump the vampire and gain 2 off the lifelink (if he comes down early and gets to swing, so much the better).
Once I hit four or five mana, things take off. Sorin's Emblem is amazing with just a single copy of Lingering Souls, not to mention the vampires he pops out. If I land a Blood Baron and untap, it's usually GG.
The matchup where I'm having the most trouble, by far, is Gruul aggro. 30+ creatures and Domri Rade, with cheap hasty beaters, Kessig Wolf Run, and Gruul Clan Rampager. Since the creatures are red and green, Blood Baron's value is significantly reduced, and the easy access to trample means that chump blocking with spirits or piddly regenerators doesn't actually save me much life. By the time I begin to stabilize, it's too late.
I really, REALLY want to find a way to make this deck work as straight Orzhov without completely folding to what is becoming a more popular super-aggressive archetype.
I've tried a few other cards that aren't in the current list; some because I just can't fit them and some because I've tried them and they are currently on the bench while I test other stuff. Nothing is necessarily out permanently, I'm still trying to juggle my 60/75.
Tested cards:
Orzhov Charm - The life loss was proving too much of a pain against the decks where I really needed to get rid of creatures. Also, I was occasionally hosed by the need for both colors to cast it.
Blood Scrivener - On paper, he seems so good, he turns the deck into a life-sucking aggro build. In practice, I never got his ability to trigger because he either died or I didn't want/couldn't empty my hand. A 2/1 for 1B that wants to draw you extra cards but never quite manages...doesn't make the cut. I still think he's a good card, but not for my deck.
Sin Collector - This is a meta call. I don't have much control at all in my area, so I cut him from the board. If it were more prevalent, I'd run him in a heartbeat.
Cards I'm considering:
Terminus - the extra sweeper, especially as an early miracle, might be worth it. Also, this one isn't dependent upon swamps. On the flip side, I can't Terminus "for 3" and leave my Blood Baron on the field, which I've done more than once with Mutilate.
Debt to the Deathless - Considering as a 1-of for games that go long. I'm just afraid that I'll never want to see it except for fringe cases where I have a ton of mana and nothing to do with it, which rarely happens, and if it does, I'd probably rather top deck something else.
Vampire Nighthawk - I have no good reason for not having tried this guy, at the very least in the board against aggro. It was an oversight I need to fix ASAP.
Restoration Angel - I'm not really running any good ETB effects (Obzedat doesn't play well with Resto, anyway), so I didn't give my thought to her, but it might be worth it just for the flying butt. And randomly saving a dude is nice, although it doesn't really work against trample, which is one of my biggest weakness right now.
Nevermore - Might be the best way to deal with Ruric Thar?
Pontiff of Blight - Expensive, but a huge back end to block with and the potential to gain back life through excessive extort triggers. Might combo well with token producers if I have the mana to play with. But at 6cmc, he probably doesn't come out quick enough to swing a game back in my favor.
Rhox Faithmender - Another one that I can't really say why I haven't tested. 5 toughness, double life gain on my extorts, and only a 4 drop. Seems good, just have to figure out what to cut for him.
Vizkopa Guildmage - He's another one that looks good on paper, but I just have better things to do with his mana and I'm not trying to run the combo. I might give it a go, though, if the deck evolves in that direction.
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I really like the list in the OP, and I definitely think I need to examine some of your cards in my list. Maybe I'm seeing something just because I want to, and the only thing these two decks have in common is the colors, but I'd be interested to get the feedback and start a discussion with other BW players.
Also, 2-3 Cavern of Souls would probably help against control. Only thing it wouldn't safeguard is Crypt Ghast.
You're playing white and not utilitizng your graveyard, so I see no reason to run Tormod's Crypt over Rest in Peace.
Finally, I'd very strongly suggest some kind of sac effects, probably Renounce the Guilds, actually. It hits exactly nothing in your list, and it can answer the card that will singly hose your entire deck: Blood Baron of Vizkopa.
Seriously, if that guy lands, you're kind of boned. You need a sac effect for him alone.
Good luck at FNM!
Can't Sphere a Sphere. Have to O Ring it. How much play is O Ring seeing lately, with Sphere sort of upstaging it?
I'm pretty firmly in the Instant Speed Draw camp. Having to choose between playing a slightly less efficient draw spell and having the option to fog if necessary, or playing a denser draw spell that leaves me at the mercy of my opponent for a turn without knowing what kind of tricks he might pull...well, that seems like a pretty simple choice to me. There's a reason Think Twice is in almost every blue deck in standard right now, and Inspiration/Divination are common bin fodder.
I do like the idea of fogging until Gideon ults, but to bring the conversation back to Sphere/ORing (Vraska, Dreadbore, etc.), if I am banking on a PWer as my win con, I want him or her to do something meaningful every turn, not just power up for a few turns and get hosed before "going off".
One other thing to be mindful of. I don't think it's possible to run a consistently successful (competitive) turbofog deck right now without ANY permission. At the very least, I would keep a few Dispels in the board. Why?
Skullcrack.
Everyone pays attention to the lifegain, and points out how it hoses Sphinx's Revelation (which it totally does, and is the reason it's seeing so much play...okay, and Thragtusk). But the part everyone seems to forget is the other bit, "damage can't be prevented this turn". This means any of your fog effects are useless this turn (regardless of whether you play it before or after the Skullcrack!).
That card is pretty much an auto-lose for turbofog. I don't think many lists mainboard it, but it's in the side of more or less every deck running red. Considering that, and the ability to occasionally hose another player's Revelation or some such, I'd definitely make room for some Dispels (or another counterspell that would fit).
4x Steam Vents
4x Sulfur Falls
7x Mountain
6x Island
3x Desolate Lighthouse
Creatures (14):
4x Goblin Electromancer
3x Lobber Crew
4x Guttersnipe
3x Nivix Cyclops
4x Think Twice
4x Searing Spear
3x Skullcrack
2x Izzet Charm
2x Dissipate
1x Counterflux
2x Dragonshift
1x Mizzium Mortars
Planeswalkers (3):
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Tormod's Crypt
4x Pillar of Flame
2x Electrickery
1x Skullcrack
1x Rolling Temblor
3x Turn // Burn
2x Jace, Memory Adept
It played about the way I expected. The MVP is, without a doubt, Guttersnipe. Untapping with him on the board is pretty much guaranteed to net you a respectable amount of damage, or other form of card advantage. Not to mention, he IS still a 2/2 beater. Against pretty much every control opponent I played tonight, he marched into the red zone almost as much as he burned face. Absolutely a powerhouse.
If you manage to stick more than one...well, I'm not sure what the right word is, exactly, but it's something resembling hilarious.
Seriously, ALL the hilarity.
Surprisingly, the weakest link was the cyclops. I expected him to be a regular damage burst extravaganza (spear the face, swing 4, all for 2 mana and a card?), but I think the problem is I rarely want to cast my instants and sorceries during my pre-combat main phase. I can pull some silly combat tricks on defense when my opponent attacks into what he figures is just a glorified wall that ends up eating his Flinthoof Boar or Champion of the Parish, but that's not why I want him there. Ultimately, I think running three was the correct move. He was there when I needed a body, occasionally did get to do his attacking thing, and wasn't really ever a terrible card to draw.
Goblin Electromancer wins the award for Most Dedicated Guttersnipe Groupie. What a bonkers combination those two are. And another 2/2 beater, to boot!
Speaking of support gobbos, I was delighted to find in my testing that Lobber Crew performed EXACTLY the way I'd anticipated. Cheap to cast, big butt that blocks all day long, and did a fair bit of damage over the course of each game that he showed up. Occasionally untapping after I cast a cyclops or a charm was just icing on the cake. This guy definitely kept me alive.
I can't really complain about my spell package. I will point out that I ended up siding the last Skullcrack in a ton of my matches, even if I didn't see lifegain. If it was control, obviously I wanted it for the Sphinx Revs. But against aggro, it was still a spear to the face at worst, and a 2-mana Lava Axe much of the time. That **** wins races.
I need to tweak the sideboard a bit, my rough matchups were of the midrange variety, and I'm not entirely certain what to do about it. I had an extremely close game with an American control player who landed a turn 5 Assemble the Legion, which I had very little in the way of answers for. It was a straight up race, and I only managed to eek it out by a single turn because I was fortunate enough to draw into a second Skullcrack (he had 2 mana up and an Elixir of Immortality on the field, I had a Guttersnipe). He was at ten life, I Skullcracked, he countered with elixir, and I responded with 'crack number 2. Talk about drawing the answer
Still pondering between Jace and Ral. I don't have much to take advantage of untapping in this deck (Lobber Crew, I guess?), but another bolt is nothing to sneeze at, not to mention the occasional Time Stretch. On the other hand, Jace == cards, and that is the bottom line with this deck. Fuel, fuel, fuel.
All in all, this deck was a ton of fun to test, and I'm going to sleeve it up for tomorrow's FNM. I'm expecting to run into much more aggro than I did on Cockatrice, so we'll see how that pans out. But I have a good feeling about it. I urge anyone reading this thread to give it a whirl, I think there's potential for something competitive here!
If you really, really want to use him, I'd add Fervor or Hellraiser Goblin so you can fire him off immediately (the odds of him activating if he's not hasty seem...low).
Krenko-friendly suggestions:
4x Steam Vents
4x Sulfur Falls
4x Cavern of Souls
5x Mountains
4x Islands
1x Desolated Lighthouse
Creatures (24):
4x Legion Loyalist
4x Goblin Arsonist
4x Mogg Flunkies
4x Arms Dealer
4x Hellraiser Goblin
4x Krenko, Mob Boss
2x Ral Zarek
Spells (12):
4x Krenko's Command
2x Searing Spear
2x Skullcrack
2x Dragonshift
2x Mizzium Mortars
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Clifftop Retreat
1x Hallowed Fountain
4x Pillar of Flame
1x Electrickery
2x Skullcrack
3x Wear//Tear
2x Turn//Burn
Now, if you're willing to give up on the mob boss, I think you could take it in this direction:
4x Steam Vents
4x Sulfur Falls
7x Mountains
6x Islands
3x Desolated Lighthouse
Creatures (14):
4x Goblin Electromancer
3x Lobber Crew
4x Guttersnipe
3x Nivix Cyclops
4x Think Twice
4x Searing Spear
3x Skullcrack
2x Izzet Charm
2x Dissipate
1x Counterflux
2x Dragonshift
2x Mizzium Mortars
Planeswalkers (3):
3x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Tormod's Crypt
4x Pillar of Flame
2x Electrickery
1x Skullcrack
1x Rolling Temblor
3x Turn//Burn
2x Jace, Memory Adept
This is much more of the virtual-CA-through-synergy model, with each of your spells doing something else, be it shocking the opponent, unleashing your cyclops-dragon, or untapping your aggro-wall that also happens to be a pinger. Electromancer's role is obvious, as is Jace's.
I think the Lobber Crews are necessary to stave off early aggro, even without a ton of multi-colored spells in the deck. I also think that Dragonshift, once cast, should end the game. It seems reasonable to expect, say, a board with Guttersnipe, Lobber Crew, and Cyclops...tap the crew (1 damage), cast Dragonshift (2 damage from the Snipe), and swing with two 4/4 flyers (the Dragonshift untaps the Crew) and a 7/4 flyer (15 damage), for a total of 18 damage off of that one spell. As such, I don't think you want more than 2 copies (also, it's a horrible topdeck after a sweeper).
Just my thoughts, I would be very interested to see what this sort of deck can really do in a semi-competitive environment. Good luck with yours!
Sadly, I came to the same conclusion about Mirko. The odds of actually connecting with him are pretty pitiful, and when he doesn't connect, you've basically timewalked yourself by casting a 5-drop that doesn't do anything.
Secondly, they gave us an extort "lord" in DGM (Pontiff of Blight), I'd recommend him. remember, each instance of extort that your permanents have trigger separately, so he does something even if all your other creatures already have extort.
Next, if you want to go estort, go all in. that means playing the full setsof the best cards. Basilica Guard is fantastic agaunst aggro, he is an auto-four-of. Crypt Ghast, while fragile for a 4 drop, is probably worth it because of the potential for abuse with all that mana.
As nice as it is to have a 1 drop creature with extort, I would ditch Parasite (or at least move him to the board), and play the full set of Dutiful Thrull. He's so good at shutting down early aggression, which is a major concern for a deck like this.
Blind Obedience is an incredible card, even if it does just turn into a 2-mana extort source (that ignores creature removal).
Consider some kind of sac effects for Blood Baron of Vizkopa, as he is otherwise an immediate auto-loss as soon as he hits the board (you're not too keen on running sweepers here).
Finally, I don't think the Demons or Angel are necessarily bad cards, but they don't fit the same strategy as the rest of the deck. Just my $0.02.
By this logic, there would be no reason to play any split card. Each side is always overpriced for its specific effect, because you're paying a premium for the flexibility of the card.
And honestly, "paying five mana to kill...Thragtusk" is probably justification by itself to run this card in a deck that relies on bounce or burn to deal with creatures, which are both catastrophic options for one of the staple creatures of the format.
This only works if your opponent is bad at Magic. The choice of triggers (up to three) for Angel's ETB trigger is mandatory, but the actual decision to exile or not is made on resolution of the ability. If the Angel gets nuked with the ETB on the stack, the controller just chooses not to exile the targets.
Finally, in a format without Turn to Frog, but with cards like, say, Staticaster, I'll happily pay 3 for the effect.
Possibility Storm specifies cards cast from hand, so it will actually ignore cards that are flashed back from the graveyard. So on the one hand, it doesn't synergize the way you want it to, but on the other hand, it synergizes in a different way by sidestepping the Storm (letting you actually know what you're casting when you cast it).
I like Defang in the context you provide (Olivia), as well as maybe hosing Boros Reckoner?
I already play standard, but I want to +1 the rest of this statement so hard.
That said, I don't quite agree with this bit. I just don't feel that 22 creatures is enough to run Domri. I consider him an awesome enabler for straight Gruul aggro (abusing bloodrush), but pretty lackluster for anything else in standard at the moment.
My local meta is extraordinarily aggro-heavy (aristocrats, Naya blitz, zombies), so I would be worried about the early turns, but you do pack a good bit of lifegain if you survive the first three turns...
I think I have to build this and give it a go
WaxMyShazzy, what decks do you find you auto-scoop to?
I'm thinking something like this.
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Clifftop Retreat
6x Mountain
4x Plains
Creatures (12):
4x Vexing Devil
4x Ash Zealot
4x Viashino Firstblade
4x Boros Charm
4x Searing Spear
4x Thunderbolt
4x Warleader's Helix
4x Skullcrack
4x Brimstone Volley
2x Divine Deflection
2x Reforge the Soul
4x Wear//Tear
4x Torch Fiend
4x Pillar of Flame
3x Boros Reckoner
I'm not 100% sold on the board. W//T is a must, obviously, and I think the Torch Fiends are justified for pretty much the same reason (haaaaaaaate that Orb), not to mention the possible triple play of block a dude, sac to kill an artifact, morbid Brimstone to the face (in magical Xmasland, I know).
I like the idea of Divine Deflection, but I don't want to draw too many of them.
I don't know if it's been mentioned here yet, but Reforge the Soul also seems like a huge card. What I really, really don't want with this deck is to run out of cards before my opponent runs out of life. Seems like going back to seven is usually going to be better for me than my opponent. Just don't want to see it until turn 5 or so, if the game isn't over yet.
Also, I feel like Skullcrack just has to be a 4-of. Lifegain is the devil against this deck, end of story.
My first attempt was literally straight mill. Mind Sculpt, Breaking, Snapcasters, Consuming Aberration, etc. It showed promise, but not yet realized. I frequently found myself overrun in the first few turns of the game, or stalling in the mid game with a massive Aberration, but no way to swing with it. I ended up just hoping to cast spells until I decked my opponent before he drew a kill spell or fielded enough creatures to swing through my sparse defense.
With that in mind, I'm trying to revamp my original list into something a little more aggressive, probably in the midrange category, using mill to enable a quick kill through damage, and relying on actually decking my opponent as a back-up strategy.
Note that I haven't really figured out what to do about Rest In Peace yet... >_<
4x Watery Grave
4x Drowned Catacomb
2x Nephalia Drownyard
2x Blood Crypt
1x Steam Vents
7x Swamp
4x Island
Creatures (11):
4x Jace's Phantasm
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Consuming Aberration
2x Artful Dodge
4x Thought Scour
2x Fling
4x Breaking//Entering
2x Dimir Cluestone
2x Crypt Incursion
4x Mutilate
3x Far//Away
2x Crypt Incursion
3x Dissipate
3x Duress
4x Cremate
1x Psychic Spiral
2x Witchbane Orb
Still haven't had a chance to test the above, but I'm eager to do so.
Regardless of what build I settle on, I will say this. The MVP card in this deck has been, without a doubt, Crypt Incursion. In my opinion, that card is what will make any competitive mill deck viable in the current standard meta, if one does ever arise. The amount of life it has provided me (while simultaneously hosing a number of GY-based decks) has been outrageous. There are enough creature based decks out there right now that I feel mainboarding two is the right call; last FNM I kept them in the board, and proceeded to side in every copy on every single match.
The one-of Psychic Spiral is to match any other deck running it as a last-minute answer to mill decks like my own. Also, I find that a number of my games reach a point where we both have significantly sized graveyards, so it can be the deathblow in such a case, as well.
It needs more tuning, for sure, but I'm really enjoying the theme so far.