Brimaz has tested insanely well, and has replaced Boros Reckoner. Brimaz blocks just as well, and puts far more pressure on the opponent early. It allows us to be slightly more proactive in our gameplan during certain match-ups. He survives our own Anger of the Gods(but those poor tokens don't) as well, which has proven quite good.
I've never loved Aurelia, but with Brimaz the damage potential is much higher when you play her to me, so I'm trying her out again. She's been....fine. Well enough she hasn't lost her slot yet.
Adjusted some number on Anger in the main, added two Assemble the Legion to the sideboard, and now have 2 open slots that I'm not sure what to do with.
Open to criticism and comments!
My main argument against Brimaz goes to the underlying problem with a 3-color non-blue deck: the dreaded color screw. In a large tournament, you are invariably going to have color issues eventually. Reckoner did have a slight issue, but the ability to play him with Red or White made up for a lot of that. I have generally considered the best Dega Midrange decks to be mostly 2-colors with a splash for a 3rd color. The scrylands might be enough to find WW on T3, but when you are also wanting BB on T2 and RR on T3, it might just be too much.
Jeff Shaffer's list is interesting in that it also doesn't have any Dreadbore. Dreadbore has been over-performing for me as late with all the Walkers and big green and black monsters about.
He also has 12 spells at 5-6 CMC which is pretty steep. I'd be worried about drawing too many opening hands with nothing to cast before turn 4/5. I do love seeing all the Dragons though, even if just for style
Since that list was played at an Invitational Qualifier, there probably weren't that many other participants -- more than an Open Trials, but far fewer than one of the big SCG or TCG events.
I've been in between lists like yours both main and sideboard but all I can say is add Soldiers of the Pantheon , preferably main and it makes everything feel so much better. I was very skeptical of the card for a while as both an Esper Player and Dega, but its easily over the past 1-2 weeks impressed me too the point that it is a 4 of in my Esper Sideboard and a 4 of main in my Dega list. I'm not 100% sure if 4 is the right number main, it may be 3 but atm I never hate drawing a SotP in this current meta and over the past week or so.
I actually tried out Soldier, but the rise of Devotion decks killed that idea for me. Against B Devotion, he does nothing. Against Gr Devotion, he can block Burning-Tree Emissary, but he gets chumped by Carytid and might gain a few life before dying to a Polukranos monstrous trigger. Against U Devotion, he either gets flown over or watches as unblockable guys swing past him. Now, against control, he was awesome, and against aggro, he was pretty good as well, but I didn't need help in those matchups.
The maindeck Wear/Tear was actually decent, once hitting an Underworld Connections G1 against Mono B and a D-Sphere against UW. I was somewhat worried about removing all Boros Reckoners, even from the SB, but my aggro matchup wasn't hurt at all. I lost my first games against both UW and Esper Control, but all of the hate in the SB killed those decks in games 2 and 3.
The Assemble the Legions in the SB were worthless, and the Merciless Eviction, while decent on occasion, just didn't do enough against devotion. During my match against Mono U, I exiled a Thassa, Master of Waves with 4 dudes, Cloudfin, and Specter, but he had attacked once and his Bident had already drawn him 6 cards the turn before (I drew a Wear/Tear the turn after), so it didn't matter.
I'm pretty frustrated. Started out 4-1 at the SCG Dallas Open, then went 1-3 and dropped to make my final record 5-4. I crushed Aggro and Control, but the devotion decks (one Gr, one Mono-B, one Mono-U, and one Br) got me every time. And they didn't feel very close.
One of the strengths of this deck, its adaptability, is also its weakness IN THIS META. You have enough "stuff" in these 3 colors to position your deck against anything you want to, but with the extreme number of decks hitting from different angles, you can't hit ALL of them. I hoped that the rise of aggro and Esper in the last week would lower the devotion decks this week. Looking at the final results, I was very wrong.
To be successful with this deck, do we simply have to guess right about the meta for the week, or just get lucky on the decks we happen to play during the tournament? Doesn't sound like much of a plan.
You folks can expect an article for Dega Midrange hopefully by this weekend, breaking down the numbers behind successful lists, a look at the mana base, the curve, and how your selections impact each other. It is primarily a numbers breakdown, so there will not be any construction going on. If you enjoy analytical takes on deck construction, I think this will be a read for you
Thanks, I'll be looking forward to it!
I'm back to considering whether Boros Reckoner is a good choice for a large unknown metagame (SCG Open this week in Dallas). When the Devotion decks were crushing everything a few weeks ago, he was pretty bad. Mono Blue didn't care and flew over him or made their guys unblockable, Mono Black killed him with any of their removal spells, and Gr just powered through him (and of course Esper just seemed to always bounce him). So I took him out and went with more maindeck removal, such as Anger of the Gods, and that was working better.
During the last Open, however, aggro decks stormed back, and I'm thinking that Reckoner might be worth another shot. What do you think?
I will be very very grateful if you help me with my deck
Your deck looks pretty good overall, and you could certainly run it as is if you have played with it and are comfortable with it. That being said, I would offer some suggestions (that you can take or leave, of course:
1. You might consider lowering or removing the Desecration Demons. They were previously a force, but other threats seem to be better now. I would suggest adding some different high-end threats, such as an Elspeth, Sun's Champion, an Aurelia, the Warleader, and 1 or 2 Stormbreath Dragon. It looks as though you have a low percentage of aggro in your area, and those threats might serve you better.
2. The 4th Thoughtseize should really be in the SB, maybe replacing a Duress. Thoughtseize is one of the most important cards in the deck, and with your meta, it might be wise to have all 4 in the main.
3. 3 Pithing Needles and 3 Boros Charms seem like too many in the sideboard, although their uses can be very handy. You might want to diversify the control cards you bring in. I have found 2 Slaughter Games to be very helpful, naming Aetherling usually against Esper and Gray Merchant of Asphodel or Erebos, God of the Dead against Mono Black. I also like to run an Assemble the Legion in the SB, which can be great against Mono Black and slower control or mid-range decks, although you will find that choice to be controversial among the other posters here.
Good luck to you!
Edit: Looks like Kamahl beat me to it. Take his advice first.
Thanks. I run RR in the side, but would you suggest putting it in the main? It seems like it would be a poor choice against decks that vomit out their hands early, but I've never tested it against aggro decks, so I don't know. What is your experience with it?
I have run 1 or 2 (currently 2) in the main for awhile now. We know that it is great as a potential game-ending threat against control, and it can also be great against midrange. But it can also be deceptively good against aggro, as well. Don't get me wrong, I still board it out against aggro decks, but in game one, there are quite a number of times that you can catch the last 1 or 2 cards in the opponent's hand, that Fanatic of Mogus or the 2 God's Willing that they were saving to wreck you. Of course if your meta is stocked with aggro, I would relegate them to the SB.
I like Assemble as a one of in main because most decks have no way to deal with it.
Against anything with Swamp I like Assemble over Elspeth.
I have alternately run 1 Assemble in the main or the side at various times; right now it is in the side. As cbgirardo said, it can be frightfully slow, and against quick aggro decks and the Blue devotion deck you can get run over before the tokens amount to much. However, I liked it when I ran it in the main because against midrange and control decks (when it resolved) I was sure to have inevitability and my game plan simplified to just kill their dangerous stuff and I'll eventually win.
The other problem with running it main now is that the 5+cc threats are getting crowded, with Blood Baron, Obzedat, Stormbreath, Elspeth, and Aurelia. Right now I swap it in for Elspeth against black, swap it in for Blood Baron against GR, add it in place of dead removal against Esper, and leave it out against aggro.
I've been wondering the same thing. It seems like most lists on this thread run 2 or 3 Angers main, and a lot of the decks that performed well at States do too, but I don't really understand why.
It seems like we're already heavy favorites in the aggro matchup, even without Anger, since we run enough early disruption to get to the mid-late game, when we can start playing our finishers. Plus, our finishers also serve as incredible blockers if we're not stabilized by the time we've run out of removal. Really, midrange is almost always favored against aggro. Nothing wrong with having an even better matchup against aggro, and I could get behind mainboard Angers if the meta was heavily skewed to RDW and GW aggro, but I don't feel like that's the case (maybe it is in your locale?).
Instead, I'd rather run a universally good card in its place if there's one available. Thoughtseize comes to mind. Many lists aren't running four main (or at all!), but I personally want to see it in my opening hand every game 1. It's excellent in the control and midrange matchups where our other cards are weaker, but isn't horrible against aggro (I'll gladly trade two life for a Purphoros, Reckoner, or Fanatic of Mogis). Dreadbore and Hero's Downfall are useful in every matchup, so I want them (no deck in this meta is running only untargetable creatures and no planeswalkers). Boros Reckoner is useful in every match (he stonewalls aggro, trades up with midrange creatures, and provides an early threat against control), so I want four. Unfortunately, he has anti-synergy with Anger. As much as I've talked down Devour Flesh, it hits something in every match (except for control lists that only run Aetherling, I guess). Chained to the Rocks hits every creature except Obzedat, Blood Baron, and Aetherling.
After accounting for creatures, card draw, and Whips, most lists only have 15-20 slots for disruption. There's just not enough room for dead cards, I feel. I keep vacillating on what should be main, but I'm leaning toward this:
I give Magma Jet a pass on being universal removal, which it obviously is not, because in matchups where its dead I can shoot a player and then dig for another answer or threat that would be more useful for the matchup. I definitely run 3 Anger of the Gods in the side and side out my Thoughtseizes against RDW, but I don't think that the percentage points I lose in game 1 against RDW by having Thoughtseizes over Angers main is as big a deal as the percentage points I lose against control, midrange, and tempo decks by running Angers main and having them be dead in those matchups (or, at best, a three mana sorcery-speed Lightning Strike that can't hit players and planeswalkers).
So, I want to ask, do most of you feel like you would have a bad game one against aggro without Anger of the Gods, and how do you think Anger effects your non-aggro matchups?
I like the cards in your disruption suite, but I would add 2 Rakdos's Return to the listing.
As far as Anger of the Gods goes, I ran 3 main when I ran Desecration Demon. When I removed the Demon, they were relegated to the SB. However, they can also be decent against Gr Devotion and B Devotion, so it just depends on the metagame in your area. In an unknown area, I would probably keep them in the SB.
After playtesting Stormbreath dragon, I don't really want to cut him anymore.
I'm actually tempted to add in 1-2 Alms Beast in the slot devoted to DD, it's just so strong as a 6/6 for 4 with limited downsides, can't be doom bladed or ultimate priced, can't be tapped down by a creature.
Lifebane Zombie isn't in my sideboard because I don't think it helps us in the G/R matchup, as they'll just draw more off Garruk, can only remove so many threats and they have far more threats than we do answers.
Devour flesh is currently bad and I wouldn't run it in any matchup, I tried it in the side and every time I could cast it I found I wished it was an Ultimate Price Downfall or Doom Blade.
Merciless Eviction is very strong as a sweeper out of the board, if it comes down to it we could run Planar Cleansing as a 1 of in the side, yes it's hard to cast, but resetting the game is generally in our favor I would say.
Read the bones vs. Underworld Connections will continue to be personal preference in many lists, I personally run a split, 2/2.
I think more than 2 Thoughtseize mainboard is bad, it takes away spots that could be better used as removal or creatures. We have limited room to tweak as it is I'm not sure that taking away more spots to deal more damage to ourselves is a good idea.
Whip is a one of in almost every deck here, having 16 ways to deal 2 damage to ourselves and only 1-5 ways to gain life back in this deck makes me unwilling to run too many Thoughtseizes main/board.
Pharika's cure could be nice against G/R to kill their BTE's and mystics and give us a bit of extra life. Slaughter Games naming Garruk isn't the worst thing in the world either.
I've switched to a 4/4/2 split on my shocklands, with Foundry going down to 2 and I haven't had a mana issue so far, even with adding Hammer and Assemble to the deck.
Hammer will probably move to the sideboard, and Erebos is coming out of the 75 altogether.
Boros charm can be extremely powerful with Whip on the field, and against Esper it allows us to keep our creatures through a boardwipe.
Magma Jet smooths out our deck along with the 8 scrylands, I think running at least 2 is a must have, some run 4, but I like 2 for now.
Dropping Hammer I will probably add another Chained to the Rocks tot he mainboard.
I agree with almost everything you wrote, especially about Lifebane Zombie (I really wanted it to work, but it didn't) and Devour Flesh (My ratio of killing good creatures to bad creatures was probably 20%). Your deck looks pretty good, but I have a few questions.
First, you are running 10 threats costing 5+, with only 25 lands. Are you finding any problems casting those threats? I know you are running Read the Bones and Magma Jet to scry, but I generally don't want to put that much of a burden on my card selection to simply find lands. One or two Rakdos Keyrunes might help.
I really want to add Stormbreath Dragon back into my deck, and I'm thinking of cutting Obzedat. I run a similar threat package to yours, with 1 Aurelia, 1 Assemble, 3 Blood Baron, 2 Obzedat, and 1 Elspeth in the main. If I wanted to cut 2 of those for Stormbreath, what would you suggest?
Is there anything to be gained off the style of Brad Nelson's Naya Control deck?
Obviously we don't get access to advents smiters or selesnya charm.
But we do get access to Baron, Stormbreath, Keyrune, Assemble, Mortars, Anger, Obzedat and Sin Collector.
We have arguably better kill spells in our repertoire than Naya did which I think is an advantage for us, we have Dreadbore and Hero's Downfall.
We also get access to Underworld Connections. So I'm not sure if someone wants to attempt to make a deck in that style or not.. I'll try my hand at it.
We don't have an equivalent to Advent or Xenagos or Charm so we have to improvise a bit, our Keyrune and card draw is better, our threats are arguably more resilient, but we can't 'surprise' a Blood Baron or similar with advent.
That's a valiant attempt, Nightcinder, but I highly doubt if Dega Control will work in the same way that Brad Nelson's Naya Control deck worked. In my opinion, his deck worked for 5 basic reasons:
1. A reliance on Red sweepers rather than 1-for-1 removal. He had 4-ofs of both Anger of the Gods and Mizzium Mortars -- we have access to those as well, so I would go up to 4-ofs of those, as well. Black's superior 1-for-1 removal I don't think would work as well, as a control deck needs card advantage in some fashion, and sweepers seem to work very well for that purpose rather than 1-for-1.
2. All of his creatures survived his own sweepers. Boros Reckoner, while a very good card, doesn't survive Anger.There were a few games that I saw that he swept the board with Anger, then swung in with Loxodon Smiter or a Wurm token, which Dega just does not have access to.
3. His creatures generally are lower cost (see Smiter and Advent of the Wurm versus our Blood Baron and Obzedat), which allows Naya to follow up a sweeper with a big dude quicker. Again, the BW creatures are great in their own rite, but not as analogs to the Naya deck.
4. The surprise factor -- Naya control?
5. His curve seems much better for his purposes than an analog Dega curve. Removal/sweeper turns 2 and 3, 4+ toughness creatures turns 3 and 4, and then drop Assemble the Legion turn 5. He played 4, count 'em, 4 AtL because it was an integral part of his strategy to grind the game out and win with the Soldiers. Could Dega match that curve? In my opinion, we don't have proper analogs to Smiter, Advent, Xenagos, or Selesnya Charm. However, if we use our own 2-mana spot removal, 3-mana Anger of the Gods and Reckoner, maybe Desecration Demon at the 4-spot, then Assemble and maybe a couple (no more than that) of our good 5-drop guys, then you could possibly find room for Underworld Connections, which is one of the real potential plus cards for Dega. I still think it would be too shaky mana-wise, and you would have no flash creatures to surprise the opponent, but I wish you luck.
It is more of a BW splash red midrange deck rather than my usual BWR deck that I have been playing to some success (9th at TCG Texas States last weekend). The reason I modified the deck is that I started having more and more mana issues -- more "color of mana" problems than "number of lands" problems, and I started thinking about removing a color for a more stable base. I went to straight BW, as I really liked the looks of the Chapin/Reitzl deck. There were some things in that list that I liked, particularly Soldier of the Pantheon, but I really missed Rakdos's Return, Dreadbore, and Slaughter Games. So, I decided to try just a splash of red, and see how it ran at FNM.
FMN, 5-1-1, split in finals.
R1 vs UW Control. Both games showed the power of Soldier of the Pantheon. An early Soldier is almost unstoppable when backed up by Thoughtseize and Sin Collector, and when the opponent can finally deal with him, we are primed to stick a 5-drop or shred their hand with Rakdos's Return. I won 2 easy games using this same formula. 2-0 games, 1-0 overall.
R2 vs GR Monsters. Just like that, I lose 2 quick games. G1 I made him discard a Stormbreath Dragon and a Polukranos, but my removal ran out and so did my life. G2 I was stuck on 4 lands and my Obzedat and Blood Baron did me no good. 2-2 games, 1-1 overall.
R3 vs RWU Midrange. A really unique brew with Medomai, the Ageless and Aurelia, the Warleader. Unfortunately, it died to a removal-heavy deck, and I had lots of removal both games. 4-2 games, 2-1 overall.
R4 vs Esper Control. In G1, I Thoughtseized him twice in the first few turns, pulling all of his countermagic. and then I Rakdos's Returned for his hand, which included 3 Supreme Verdicts. He killed my Obzedat with Hero's Downfall, but without his Verdicts, my Blood Baron went the distance. G2 he killed 2 Obzedats, but again Blood Baron went all the way. 6-2 games, 3-1 overall.
Top 8 vs Red Aggro Devotion. G1 he got a few hits in with Firedrinker Satyr and Rakdos Cackler before I killed them, and he was stuck on 3 lands. I Rakdos's Returned for 3, and got 2 Fanatic of Mogis and a Purphoros, and he never recovered. G2 I killed his guys, stabilized at 10 with an Elspeth, and then I cast a Whip and started gaining lots of life. He scooped. 8-2 games, 4-1 overall.
Top 4 vs the RWU Midrange deck again. See R3. 10-2 games, 5-1 overall.
I split in the finals, and decided to run the same deck for Gameday.
Gameday, I finished first, 6-1 overall.
R1 vs GW Aggro. G1 I killed his early guys, stabilized at 6 life, and Blood Baron brought me back and won the game. G2 I was overrun with multiple Fleecemane Lions and he had enough creatures to swing through my Desecration Demons. G3 he started out slowly, I played a T4 Obzedat and killed all of his blockers. Eventually a Demon came online and he died. 2-1 games, 1-0 overall.
R2 vs UW Control. G1 was more of the same from the night before, with Soldier played early and discard clearing out Dissolve and Supreme Verdict. He Sphinx's Revelationed for 3, found another Verdict, but that let me resolve an Obzedat, and I repeatedly blinked him in and out for the win. G2 he was mana screwed and another early Soldier backed up with a Sin Collector did the lion's share of the work. 4-1 games, 2-0 overall.
R3 vs RB Aggro. G1 he kept a sketchy hand with only a Rackdos Cackler and a Stormbreath Dragon, and I T1 Thoughtseized away the Cackler, kept removal for the Dragon, and he drew no other creatures. G2 I mulliganed to 6, kept a 1-lander with 2 Soldiers, and after 3 turns finally started drawing lands. My mana screw beat his mana flood when Fiendslayer Paladin and Blood Baron were cast and he couldn't target them with his removal. 6-1 games, 3-0 overall.
R4 vs Red Aggro. G1 Soldier held off Rakdos Cackler and Burning-Tree Emissary while I killed his other guys. Demon came down for another wall until Blood Baron started gaining me life and he scooped. G2 I was stuck on 2 lands after a mulligan and he rolled me. G3 I started out ok with some removal, but hit a big land pocket. He killed my Obzedat with multiple burn spells, and all the lands in the world didn't help me out. 7-3 games, 3-1 overall.
Top 8 vs an Esper enchantments midrange deck. I Thoughtseized him T2 and saw a Daxos of Meletis with a bunch of enchantments. I took the creature, played a Soldier, and killed the rest of his creatures before they could swing with any enchantments. G2 was the battle of Desecration Demons, and my 2 beat his 1. 9-3 games, 4-1 overall.
Top 4 vs Junk midrange reanimator. A nice-looking deck with mana acceleration, Deadbridge Chant, Angel of Serenity, and Whip of Erebos. G1 I killed his early mana guys, played my Keyrune, and cast a T5 Elspeth. He Deadbridge Chanted into an Angel of Serenity, exiling 3 of my soldier tokens, but I Doom Bladed his Angel, cast a Blood Baron and was able to kill him before the Chant got out of control. G2 I stuck on 3 mana and he killed me quickly with a Centaur Healer and a Blood Baron. G3 was epic. He got a Whip, I killed it with a Merciless Eviction, he cast another the next turn. I got an Elspeth, he killed it with a whipped Blood Baron that I had Thoughtseized early. He then got a Deadbridge Chant, and I was looking dead. But my second Elspeth gave me some blockers for his Obzedat, even though he was gaining lots of life. At one point, he was ahead 46 - 17. He killed my 2nd Elspeth with a whipped Angel of Serenity, but I then ripped another Merciless Eviction, named enchantments, and killed off both his Chant and Whip. I then found my own Whip, cast a Blood Baron, and the life totals reversed quickly. He ran out of gas, kept drawing lands, and I won with a second Blood Baron. 11-4 games, 5-1 overall.
Final vs the RB Aggro from R3. G1 he quickly killed me when my removal ran out, his burn killed my early Soldier, and I stuck on 4 lands. G2 he couldn't kill my 2 early Soldiers, and they held off his multi-colored guys while gaining some life until I cast 2 Demons. G3 was anti-climactic as he was mana screwed while I cast 3 Fiendslayer Paladins. 13-5 games, 6-1 overall, with a nice new playmat.
The new deck has a different feel to it, with less fighting over colors and more early game action against control. Soldier of the Pantheon is a very nice all-star against a surprising number of cards and decks, especially against UW Control and GW Aggro. Red-based aggro is somewhat weaker without access to Anger of the Gods, but that deck seems to have gotten less play because of the devotion decks. Speaking of which, I have played against lots of devotion decks online, and I had lots of success and feel very confident against all but the Black one.
I like this deck going forward, but I will need to do more testing to determine if I have just been lucky. Any constructive comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
How did you find the whip of erebos? I feel like it overperforms, but I frequently only see it as one of in lists, just like yours. Why is that? Not enough room or it's not good enough to justify drawing a dead second copy?
Also, thoughts on read the bones? I feel like it helps smooth the draws out so much that I'd rather have it over the disruption of thoughtseize, since there are only so many lose 2 life cards you can run without severely damaging your r/x MU.
Whip was very good, it is very good especially with Boros Reckoner and the Demon. I agree with Novajoe that the 2nd one is really bad. Since it doesn't advance the board and is only good if you actually have some creatures that are out, I play only the one and I'll take the risk that it is never drawn.
I tried Read the Bones. I really wanted it to work out, since especially game 1 there are usually cards that you don't want and you can just scry them to the bottom, but it just didn't seem to do anything for me as I always seemed to need some immediate action during the midgame rather than waiting a turn and losing 2 life. In fact, running Thoughtseize in the main (which I really like) is one major reason that I'm not running RtB. If you've read the past 10 pages or so of this thread you will see MrRotten's discussion of Underworld Connections being better than RtB, and in my opinion that was spot on.
My main argument against Brimaz goes to the underlying problem with a 3-color non-blue deck: the dreaded color screw. In a large tournament, you are invariably going to have color issues eventually. Reckoner did have a slight issue, but the ability to play him with Red or White made up for a lot of that. I have generally considered the best Dega Midrange decks to be mostly 2-colors with a splash for a 3rd color. The scrylands might be enough to find WW on T3, but when you are also wanting BB on T2 and RR on T3, it might just be too much.
On a different issue, is Mogis, God of Slaughter a consideration? Particularly with Boros Reckoner, Desecration Demon, maybe Whip of Erebos, Chandra Pyromaster, and all, Mogis could be active, but even if he is not, I sort of like the static ability and he costs only 4.
Since that list was played at an Invitational Qualifier, there probably weren't that many other participants -- more than an Open Trials, but far fewer than one of the big SCG or TCG events.
I actually tried out Soldier, but the rise of Devotion decks killed that idea for me. Against B Devotion, he does nothing. Against Gr Devotion, he can block Burning-Tree Emissary, but he gets chumped by Carytid and might gain a few life before dying to a Polukranos monstrous trigger. Against U Devotion, he either gets flown over or watches as unblockable guys swing past him. Now, against control, he was awesome, and against aggro, he was pretty good as well, but I didn't need help in those matchups.
4 Godless Shrine
4 Blood Crypt
3 Sacred Foundry
4 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Rakdos Guildgate
// Creatures
2 Sin Collector
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Dreadbore
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Whip of Erebos
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Read the Bones
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Wear/Tear
2 Magma Jet
2 Sin Collector
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Wear/Tear
1 Underworld Connections
2 Pithing Needle
2 Slaughter Games
2 Merciless Eviction
2 Assemble the Legion
The maindeck Wear/Tear was actually decent, once hitting an Underworld Connections G1 against Mono B and a D-Sphere against UW. I was somewhat worried about removing all Boros Reckoners, even from the SB, but my aggro matchup wasn't hurt at all. I lost my first games against both UW and Esper Control, but all of the hate in the SB killed those decks in games 2 and 3.
The Assemble the Legions in the SB were worthless, and the Merciless Eviction, while decent on occasion, just didn't do enough against devotion. During my match against Mono U, I exiled a Thassa, Master of Waves with 4 dudes, Cloudfin, and Specter, but he had attacked once and his Bident had already drawn him 6 cards the turn before (I drew a Wear/Tear the turn after), so it didn't matter.
One of the strengths of this deck, its adaptability, is also its weakness IN THIS META. You have enough "stuff" in these 3 colors to position your deck against anything you want to, but with the extreme number of decks hitting from different angles, you can't hit ALL of them. I hoped that the rise of aggro and Esper in the last week would lower the devotion decks this week. Looking at the final results, I was very wrong.
To be successful with this deck, do we simply have to guess right about the meta for the week, or just get lucky on the decks we happen to play during the tournament? Doesn't sound like much of a plan.
Thanks, I'll be looking forward to it!
I'm back to considering whether Boros Reckoner is a good choice for a large unknown metagame (SCG Open this week in Dallas). When the Devotion decks were crushing everything a few weeks ago, he was pretty bad. Mono Blue didn't care and flew over him or made their guys unblockable, Mono Black killed him with any of their removal spells, and Gr just powered through him (and of course Esper just seemed to always bounce him). So I took him out and went with more maindeck removal, such as Anger of the Gods, and that was working better.
During the last Open, however, aggro decks stormed back, and I'm thinking that Reckoner might be worth another shot. What do you think?
Your deck looks pretty good overall, and you could certainly run it as is if you have played with it and are comfortable with it. That being said, I would offer some suggestions (that you can take or leave, of course:
1. You might consider lowering or removing the Desecration Demons. They were previously a force, but other threats seem to be better now. I would suggest adding some different high-end threats, such as an Elspeth, Sun's Champion, an Aurelia, the Warleader, and 1 or 2 Stormbreath Dragon. It looks as though you have a low percentage of aggro in your area, and those threats might serve you better.
2. The 4th Thoughtseize should really be in the SB, maybe replacing a Duress. Thoughtseize is one of the most important cards in the deck, and with your meta, it might be wise to have all 4 in the main.
3. 3 Pithing Needles and 3 Boros Charms seem like too many in the sideboard, although their uses can be very handy. You might want to diversify the control cards you bring in. I have found 2 Slaughter Games to be very helpful, naming Aetherling usually against Esper and Gray Merchant of Asphodel or Erebos, God of the Dead against Mono Black. I also like to run an Assemble the Legion in the SB, which can be great against Mono Black and slower control or mid-range decks, although you will find that choice to be controversial among the other posters here.
Good luck to you!
Edit: Looks like Kamahl beat me to it. Take his advice first.
I have run 1 or 2 (currently 2) in the main for awhile now. We know that it is great as a potential game-ending threat against control, and it can also be great against midrange. But it can also be deceptively good against aggro, as well. Don't get me wrong, I still board it out against aggro decks, but in game one, there are quite a number of times that you can catch the last 1 or 2 cards in the opponent's hand, that Fanatic of Mogus or the 2 God's Willing that they were saving to wreck you. Of course if your meta is stocked with aggro, I would relegate them to the SB.
I have alternately run 1 Assemble in the main or the side at various times; right now it is in the side. As cbgirardo said, it can be frightfully slow, and against quick aggro decks and the Blue devotion deck you can get run over before the tokens amount to much. However, I liked it when I ran it in the main because against midrange and control decks (when it resolved) I was sure to have inevitability and my game plan simplified to just kill their dangerous stuff and I'll eventually win.
The other problem with running it main now is that the 5+cc threats are getting crowded, with Blood Baron, Obzedat, Stormbreath, Elspeth, and Aurelia. Right now I swap it in for Elspeth against black, swap it in for Blood Baron against GR, add it in place of dead removal against Esper, and leave it out against aggro.
I like the cards in your disruption suite, but I would add 2 Rakdos's Return to the listing.
As far as Anger of the Gods goes, I ran 3 main when I ran Desecration Demon. When I removed the Demon, they were relegated to the SB. However, they can also be decent against Gr Devotion and B Devotion, so it just depends on the metagame in your area. In an unknown area, I would probably keep them in the SB.
Chris, I would also be interested to see your updated list. Your matchup analysis was very good. Thanks!
I agree with almost everything you wrote, especially about Lifebane Zombie (I really wanted it to work, but it didn't) and Devour Flesh (My ratio of killing good creatures to bad creatures was probably 20%). Your deck looks pretty good, but I have a few questions.
First, you are running 10 threats costing 5+, with only 25 lands. Are you finding any problems casting those threats? I know you are running Read the Bones and Magma Jet to scry, but I generally don't want to put that much of a burden on my card selection to simply find lands. One or two Rakdos Keyrunes might help.
I really want to add Stormbreath Dragon back into my deck, and I'm thinking of cutting Obzedat. I run a similar threat package to yours, with 1 Aurelia, 1 Assemble, 3 Blood Baron, 2 Obzedat, and 1 Elspeth in the main. If I wanted to cut 2 of those for Stormbreath, what would you suggest?
That's a valiant attempt, Nightcinder, but I highly doubt if Dega Control will work in the same way that Brad Nelson's Naya Control deck worked. In my opinion, his deck worked for 5 basic reasons:
1. A reliance on Red sweepers rather than 1-for-1 removal. He had 4-ofs of both Anger of the Gods and Mizzium Mortars -- we have access to those as well, so I would go up to 4-ofs of those, as well. Black's superior 1-for-1 removal I don't think would work as well, as a control deck needs card advantage in some fashion, and sweepers seem to work very well for that purpose rather than 1-for-1.
2. All of his creatures survived his own sweepers. Boros Reckoner, while a very good card, doesn't survive Anger.There were a few games that I saw that he swept the board with Anger, then swung in with Loxodon Smiter or a Wurm token, which Dega just does not have access to.
3. His creatures generally are lower cost (see Smiter and Advent of the Wurm versus our Blood Baron and Obzedat), which allows Naya to follow up a sweeper with a big dude quicker. Again, the BW creatures are great in their own rite, but not as analogs to the Naya deck.
4. The surprise factor -- Naya control?
5. His curve seems much better for his purposes than an analog Dega curve. Removal/sweeper turns 2 and 3, 4+ toughness creatures turns 3 and 4, and then drop Assemble the Legion turn 5. He played 4, count 'em, 4 AtL because it was an integral part of his strategy to grind the game out and win with the Soldiers. Could Dega match that curve? In my opinion, we don't have proper analogs to Smiter, Advent, Xenagos, or Selesnya Charm. However, if we use our own 2-mana spot removal, 3-mana Anger of the Gods and Reckoner, maybe Desecration Demon at the 4-spot, then Assemble and maybe a couple (no more than that) of our good 5-drop guys, then you could possibly find room for Underworld Connections, which is one of the real potential plus cards for Dega. I still think it would be too shaky mana-wise, and you would have no flash creatures to surprise the opponent, but I wish you luck.
Yay!
4 Swamp
4 Plains
4 Godless Shrine
4 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Triumph
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt
1 Orzhov Guildgate
Creatures - 16
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
4 Desecration Demon
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
3 Sin Collector
4 Thoughtseize
2 Doom Blade
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Dreadbore
1 Underworld Connections
1 Sin Collector
1 Underworld Connections
3 Merciless Eviction
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Wear/Tear
2 Slaughter Games
1 Pithing Needle
FMN, 5-1-1, split in finals.
R2 vs GR Monsters. Just like that, I lose 2 quick games. G1 I made him discard a Stormbreath Dragon and a Polukranos, but my removal ran out and so did my life. G2 I was stuck on 4 lands and my Obzedat and Blood Baron did me no good. 2-2 games, 1-1 overall.
R3 vs RWU Midrange. A really unique brew with Medomai, the Ageless and Aurelia, the Warleader. Unfortunately, it died to a removal-heavy deck, and I had lots of removal both games. 4-2 games, 2-1 overall.
R4 vs Esper Control. In G1, I Thoughtseized him twice in the first few turns, pulling all of his countermagic. and then I Rakdos's Returned for his hand, which included 3 Supreme Verdicts. He killed my Obzedat with Hero's Downfall, but without his Verdicts, my Blood Baron went the distance. G2 he killed 2 Obzedats, but again Blood Baron went all the way. 6-2 games, 3-1 overall.
Top 8 vs Red Aggro Devotion. G1 he got a few hits in with Firedrinker Satyr and Rakdos Cackler before I killed them, and he was stuck on 3 lands. I Rakdos's Returned for 3, and got 2 Fanatic of Mogis and a Purphoros, and he never recovered. G2 I killed his guys, stabilized at 10 with an Elspeth, and then I cast a Whip and started gaining lots of life. He scooped. 8-2 games, 4-1 overall.
Top 4 vs the RWU Midrange deck again. See R3. 10-2 games, 5-1 overall.
I split in the finals, and decided to run the same deck for Gameday.
Gameday, I finished first, 6-1 overall.
R2 vs UW Control. G1 was more of the same from the night before, with Soldier played early and discard clearing out Dissolve and Supreme Verdict. He Sphinx's Revelationed for 3, found another Verdict, but that let me resolve an Obzedat, and I repeatedly blinked him in and out for the win. G2 he was mana screwed and another early Soldier backed up with a Sin Collector did the lion's share of the work. 4-1 games, 2-0 overall.
R3 vs RB Aggro. G1 he kept a sketchy hand with only a Rackdos Cackler and a Stormbreath Dragon, and I T1 Thoughtseized away the Cackler, kept removal for the Dragon, and he drew no other creatures. G2 I mulliganed to 6, kept a 1-lander with 2 Soldiers, and after 3 turns finally started drawing lands. My mana screw beat his mana flood when Fiendslayer Paladin and Blood Baron were cast and he couldn't target them with his removal. 6-1 games, 3-0 overall.
R4 vs Red Aggro. G1 Soldier held off Rakdos Cackler and Burning-Tree Emissary while I killed his other guys. Demon came down for another wall until Blood Baron started gaining me life and he scooped. G2 I was stuck on 2 lands after a mulligan and he rolled me. G3 I started out ok with some removal, but hit a big land pocket. He killed my Obzedat with multiple burn spells, and all the lands in the world didn't help me out. 7-3 games, 3-1 overall.
Top 8 vs an Esper enchantments midrange deck. I Thoughtseized him T2 and saw a Daxos of Meletis with a bunch of enchantments. I took the creature, played a Soldier, and killed the rest of his creatures before they could swing with any enchantments. G2 was the battle of Desecration Demons, and my 2 beat his 1. 9-3 games, 4-1 overall.
Top 4 vs Junk midrange reanimator. A nice-looking deck with mana acceleration, Deadbridge Chant, Angel of Serenity, and Whip of Erebos. G1 I killed his early mana guys, played my Keyrune, and cast a T5 Elspeth. He Deadbridge Chanted into an Angel of Serenity, exiling 3 of my soldier tokens, but I Doom Bladed his Angel, cast a Blood Baron and was able to kill him before the Chant got out of control. G2 I stuck on 3 mana and he killed me quickly with a Centaur Healer and a Blood Baron. G3 was epic. He got a Whip, I killed it with a Merciless Eviction, he cast another the next turn. I got an Elspeth, he killed it with a whipped Blood Baron that I had Thoughtseized early. He then got a Deadbridge Chant, and I was looking dead. But my second Elspeth gave me some blockers for his Obzedat, even though he was gaining lots of life. At one point, he was ahead 46 - 17. He killed my 2nd Elspeth with a whipped Angel of Serenity, but I then ripped another Merciless Eviction, named enchantments, and killed off both his Chant and Whip. I then found my own Whip, cast a Blood Baron, and the life totals reversed quickly. He ran out of gas, kept drawing lands, and I won with a second Blood Baron. 11-4 games, 5-1 overall.
Final vs the RB Aggro from R3. G1 he quickly killed me when my removal ran out, his burn killed my early Soldier, and I stuck on 4 lands. G2 he couldn't kill my 2 early Soldiers, and they held off his multi-colored guys while gaining some life until I cast 2 Demons. G3 was anti-climactic as he was mana screwed while I cast 3 Fiendslayer Paladins. 13-5 games, 6-1 overall, with a nice new playmat.
I like this deck going forward, but I will need to do more testing to determine if I have just been lucky. Any constructive comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
Whip was very good, it is very good especially with Boros Reckoner and the Demon. I agree with Novajoe that the 2nd one is really bad. Since it doesn't advance the board and is only good if you actually have some creatures that are out, I play only the one and I'll take the risk that it is never drawn.
I tried Read the Bones. I really wanted it to work out, since especially game 1 there are usually cards that you don't want and you can just scry them to the bottom, but it just didn't seem to do anything for me as I always seemed to need some immediate action during the midgame rather than waiting a turn and losing 2 life. In fact, running Thoughtseize in the main (which I really like) is one major reason that I'm not running RtB. If you've read the past 10 pages or so of this thread you will see MrRotten's discussion of Underworld Connections being better than RtB, and in my opinion that was spot on.