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  • posted a message on Commander Banned and unbanned announcemnt
    Quote from Xcric »

    Youre aware there are commander events and its played in environments where consistency needs to be a thing right?

    Imagine for a moment you roll up and find out the store has banned xyz and now you have to cut all those cards without a backup plan.

    It also works the same if they allow xyz and youre ill equipped to deal with it.

    Some things are also incredibly toxic to the format. Without a banned list you can turn your game night into a hellscape and it makes new players not want to come back.

    One personal example is when my local group was doing 2v2 a lot on edh night. We had to house rule time warps didnt effect both players because thats all that was dominating the meta. This caused several people to not come back as they felt their deck concept was wrecked and they had no replacements.

    Rule 0 is not a magical catch all.

    No banned list works fine at home, but not in public

    The entire argument falls flat on its face, as the banned list does not accomplish that at all.

    There are a lot of cards totally legal that are completely cancer to play against.

    Winter Orb anyone ? Yea, its so amazing fun ... (if your deck is competitive, but its a complete trainwreck for casual decks that will cast 1 spell after like 4 turns each, and thats when the card is not abused in any way to just lock anyone out entirely to never get any lands anymore)

    Stasis , Static Orb, basically the same boat.

    Blood Moon , Back to Basics , contamination, completely destroy decks, they make a game unplayable miserable.

    Food Chain, does anybody seriously play this card without going infinite with their Commander ? Like anybody ? Never seen these people.

    The list of absolute cancerous cards is huge, and they are arguably way more oppressive cards than any other card on the banned list.

    The banned list "somewhat" works for cEDH as the majority of the cards are completely irrelevant for competitive decks, only in latest times, actual strong cEDH cards got banned in Commander (Flash, Hullbreacher, the big boys.

    As a "casual" banned list the power 9 are mostly banned, while Timetwister is legal, if its all about having some fun, there are a bunch of Moxes legal and Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, the big boy Moxes wouldnt really be far off (you would just play all of them, but people would proxy them, or who exactly puts 5 Moxes in their deck and their Black Lotus and plays with them in a "casual" format ? Having them on the banned list is completely pointless)


    In a world in which you want to build some cheesy casual deck and just play a bit with it, the opponent will durdle around with you and see some wacky cards, have some interactions and the game ends at some point, nobody needs a banned list at all to accomplish that.

    And as said, the list of "salty" cards is much bigger than the banned list, so the intention of the deck builder is way more important, if they include cards that people dislike to play against they dont need a list to tell them they cant even try them, and if they use them in an ethical way, why smoother that creativity (if someone wins with Coalition Victory by assembling the Legendary creatures in the art and put effort into it, thats exactly the same kind of win like someone putting a lot of creatures in play and Craterhoof Behemoth everyone to death, the same crap gets old regardless, if they just keep doing the same thing every game or rush it with tutors).


    To ask players to have a 30 Minute discussion before each game is silly.
    If anything people just make a broad claim "Casual ? or competitive ?", already fixes basically the biggest gaps.

    If anything a "after" game short exchange is much more realistic to give feedback for a deck on what you liked, what surprised you, a card you might never have seen before, praise a deck for some creativity, or tell them what cards are just flat out annoying.


    At some point you either play enough to make your own "salty card list" or you find some community feedback on especially bad cards, and that way players make their decks more enjoyable for anybody involved.

    The banned list is overall more of an issue, as its not comprehensive enough and at the same time, includes some cards that could be no issue at all for a lot of groups.

    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Commander Banned and unbanned announcemnt
    Quote from MrMoustacheMM »

    That sounds like a great list for people who use EDHRec. What about the majority of commander players who don't use it?

    The numbers are so big, that they very much reflect a substantial group of Commander players.

    You can totally have some special groups somewhere that think fundamentally different, but then you run into the same issue of a banned-list that never ever reflects the entirety, so thats unsolvable.

    But i trust a site that collects that much data WAY more than a bunch of people in a group that make the picks (especially if they work for WotC , thats super biased and shouldnt exist, and a bunch of them are arguably just "yes-men" and checkbox people, i much rather see what the players think in a collective as thats the reality of games).

    Quote from MrMoustacheMM » »
    Not to mention that there are some silly cards on there that would be really dumb to ban.

    Theres a video linked on the salty list page , which gives explainations for basically all the cards.

    Theres plenty reasons why every card is on the list, as most can be summed up in groups (mostly mass land destruction, never untap ever again and anything that makes players unable to cast spells namely unable to play the game).

    That said, its totally possible to use any of these cards in a "ethical" way, but that requires some thought to ensure they are still fun for the most part (so if you have lots of tutors to always find them, its not fun, thats just super annoying).
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Commander Banned and unbanned announcemnt
    Quote from MrMoustacheMM »

    And I wouldn't feel bad for those people at all. Bans happen; it's an understood part of the format.

    Yea thats a problem.

    If you value the financial commitment of people that low (or not at all) you would be surprised how many people get such a hit that they quit the game.

    Banning cards should be for MISTAKES that never should exist in a format and for a CASUAL format thats basically never the case, as the people in question have the goal to have fun, not necessarily win a game.

    Thats the argument to not have a Banned List at all, but replace it with a list of cards that are "potentially" problematic for the fun of a casual group, or at least very likely (as different people have different opinions, theres still no space to argue that mass land destruction is just flat out bad for a casual table).

    So if someone has a bunch of Moxes and Black Lotus and they want to play their casual whatever deck with them ... why not ? Whats the problem with that ?
    Yea, exactly nothing.

    So the salt-score for power 9 is actually quite low, the problem just arises if people want to play competitive and all the others want to play casual (and theres the issue of having mega expensive cards that people cannot buy, but making that an argument for a ban ends up just silly).


    A banned list should not be in flux, if the rules are strong banning a card needs to have a very high barrier, and if the problem just tickles the barrier you dont ban it.

    That said, replace the banned list with a salt-score for a bunch of cards and people can browse that list if they want to check their deck against what other people might consider un-fun cards ... then they choose to replace them, or not, its up to them.

    If someone wants to play Golos and is happy with that in a casual inspired deck , people should not use the banned list to tell that person to go away, its actively anti-social.

    If a card has a massive salt score chances are that its even unfun if people try to not abuse it in a combo or just accidentally play them, as the effect is oppressive for a game and does so regularly.

    You can collect these datas with sites like edhrec , which is much much better than a selected few that make the decision for everyone else.

    If your selected few are supposed to look at some data anyway, and make their decision based on that data they collect on their own by asking communities, you get the same result as you would just remove these selected few and use the data directly.

    So it comes down to not having a committee for the banned list, and instead use a properly named "Salty-Card list" that people can still use, but might think about before or after they are aware of it.


    And for a competitive mindset there needs to be a banned list not on whats "fun" , but whats actually too strong, thats the only proper argument for any competitive environment and shouldnt be mixed.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Commander Banned and unbanned announcemnt
    Quote from FunkyDragon »
    Where do you get that "casual people overall agree," "everyone just takes the banned list as a benchmark," "any casual form will basically ignore the banned list"? Got any evidence? Any poll?

    Yes, the EDHREC salty list is made of over 3,471,000 votes do give the cards in question a salt-score.
    Its WAY more comprehensive than the limited banned list.

    The massive amount of decks uploaded on the site is also a pretty defining indicator what people actually enjoy to play and what they better let on the bench if they make casual decks and not competitive ones.

    The only thing that doesn't work is trying to make a banlist that covers both casual and competitive. But that problem isn't the fault of the established list and rules committee who have made it clear they care about casual play; it's a problem made by people wanting to co-opt an existing format and twist it to their own ends at the expense of those it was made for.

    The existence of an "official" banned list for the format is what produces this issue of having only 1 list.

    If they realized that, they could certainly have 2 lists, with both directions in mind and thats not even complicated or much work, its just that you have to do it, or you dont and people will rightfully forever critique that problem.

    In the end being the "official" list carries weight no matter who likes it or not.

    Like the salty card list or not, edhrec.com is still one of the most defining and comprehensive sites for the Commander format and has plenty of data to see what cards work best in the format and which ones are problematic.

    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Commander Banned and unbanned announcemnt

    Commander was born as a casual format. The RC plays casual. They try to have the format appeal to everyone but they have no interest into turning the format competitive.
    Why you want to take that from the casual player? Why you want to take the only format that is not 100% catered to competitive players into a format exactly like the other ones?
    If competitive players are so needy, they can form their own RC and make their own banlist. 1vs1 commander players did that multiple time.
    But cEDH don't want to do that. They want to take away other people's stuff. They want to dictate how RC should play.

    Sometimes its worth reading the entire post, and not just the phrases you want to.

    As i said, instead of having a subjective list of banned list, they could and should make a list of particularly "salty" cards, just like the list i posted already does.

    Thats the cards that produce games that players might have issues with and its likely they will have issues with.

    Particular corner cases always exist, if a card is used ethical it can be broken and no problem, but destroying all lands is well, basically never fun for anybody involved, so the list of salty cards is for the most part full of stuff that makes people unable to play the game and have fun at all, other than auto-next as they cant do anything.

    The casual people overall agree with that, and everyone just takes the banned list as a benchmark and is supposed to have a discussion about what they want from a game ... so its pointless in its form and pointless in what it wants to archive, as the list itself is not comprehensive enough to be a benchmark for actual salty cards that produce obnoxious games and its not even inherently cohesive in what is on the list.

    But the only format that takes the list and enforces it is cEDH , any casual form will basically ignore the banned list anyway, as it doesnt really work for them in the first place.

    And ironically for cEDH a lot of cards are unplayable garbage anyway on the list, it doesnt really make sense to use it, but its the only really "official" list, while different "Highlander" formats with different rules have their own banned lists that are much more useful for competitive play as thats the goal of them.

    So for casuals, a "salty card" list is more useful than outright banning cards.

    Quote from MrMoustacheMM »
    And they should never not ban a card just because people spent money on it. Part of playing Magic is understanding that cards CAN be banned, and if you spend a bunch of money on a card and then it's banned, that can happen. It sucks, but such is the nature of playing a format with a banlist.

    Well, the deal with banning cards is that it should follow a proper guideline and goals.

    Normally putting a card on a banned list should have a very real and strong reason, as there are plenty of very problematic cards in EDH (namely, the salty card list) that are not banned, but many groups would completely agree they should be banned and some do ban individual cards (as a bunch of salty cards somewhat auto-ban themselves, as its not even fun for the player using them).

    When a card gets banned that people could see coming its fine, its a slower decline in price and people are more aware of a risk involved.

    If they suddenly would ban all fetchlands out of nowhere, people would be MASSIVELY pissed and lose tons of money.

    That kind of decisions are blatant market manipulation and it was already a problem in the past when they "leaked" information about what card gets banned earlier to their "friends" which then bought or sold a lot of them.

    To have a authority to decide a banned-list in a casual format is in itself kinda stupid, and it doesnt full fill its own goal at all (but its still widely accepted as the "official" list, so if you disagree with it you still have a bad starting position for your argument, if someone is pedantic enough to insist that the "official" list has a higher priority).

    As many stated in this thread alone, the argument to unban Worldfire is lackluster at best, and the influence of the card market is blatantly clear.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Commander Banned and unbanned announcemnt
    Any casual group should absolutely not give a damn about the Commander banned list, the suggestions from them reflect their idea, like a local playgroup of them, others might completely disagree.

    Ironically the only place where the list is really relevant is in tournaments for cEDH that use the banned list as an actual banned list, and you cant play if your deck is illegal.

    In any casual world, its irrelevant, so the entire point of the banned list is pretty damn pointless in the first place.


    A much better approach is to have an actual community rate each rate if they have fun with it or not.
    Then remove the biggest offenders that the majority dislikes to play with an you have a "working" banned list in a group (thats basically what the potentially time wasting "pre-game discussion" is trying to accomplish, which is super silly in my eyes, as playing against as many different decks as possible is much more interesting than restricting yourself).

    Good example is a Saltiest cards list:
    Top 100 Saltiest Cards

    Any card of that list has super high potential to be game-breaking annoying, while they are not banned, if someone plays them chances are its very little or no fun at all for the rest of the table, as these cards when used "properly" will be backbreaking and game warping for the table.

    You can play basically any Magic card in a fair and fun way, if thats your approach and if its about competitive play, anything goes.

    To have a big compilation of ratings for cards if they are "salty" or not is much better reflection of what a community thinks about a card rather than asking a tiny selection of advocates (and they unquestionable have a massive market manipulation effect with their bannings / unbannings , would not be surprised if some of them bought a lot of Worldfire just to flip them instantly).

    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Commander Banned and unbanned announcemnt
    Golos never sold anything.

    The card is cheap , available in massive numbers and absolutely nobody bought M20 packs to get Golos.

    So WotC cant care less for this.

    If anything, the fact they dont want to print any good (generic) 5-color Commander anymore (at least till they do it again, which can be any minute) might drive their sale numbers down, as people clearly go out of their way to buy them if there is a 5-color Commander they are always super popular.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Commander Banned and unbanned announcemnt
    Quote from Ryperior74 »
    I’ve been thinking some more golos might be the greatest ban in the history of commander

    Because for once the RC banned a card that’s a money maker card for the company’s and now they lost it. In other words this will truely give a indication to WOTC to not make cards 5-color commanders as bonkers as golos

    this is why I fully believe in kamigawa neon dynasty if we get a 5-color spirit tribal legend it won’t be a “good stuff” commander.

    Golos is a card that scales with all the goodie lands you can search with it, and its a card that makes really go 5-color in a land-themed deck.

    Happens to be, that almost all casual slow-af decks work better with Golos than their regular bad Commanders, and there are A LOT of terrible Commanders.
    So instead of intentionally making Commanders flat out worse entirely, could be more a hint that there are way too many Commanders that are simply too bad at what they want to do.

    So by saying we dont print any good (generic) 5-color commander anymore, they basically say from now an all of them will be terrible bad ... which is far from good news, as you end up with more cards that are just underpowered and under perform (and if you want that, you can gimp yourself by intentionally not including the combos that make Golos strong).

    From some comments you have to guess people have some deep seeded hate against decks that actually work and perform well ... like they want the worst possible garbage casual jank and only that is allowed ...
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [MIC] Undead Unleashed precon— The Command Zone preview
    Some "almost" interesting cards, but they are just awfully underpowered overall.

    Prowling Geistcatcher might be a combo card, if you have something to keep sacrificing, like an Phyrexian Altar, it can combo with a bunch of creatures that return it from the grave then, or just flicker it.
    Bit expensive at 4 mana , at 3 it would do some work as converted manacost of 3 is so much easier to get back from the graveyard and more in line casting it fast.

    All the interesting mechanics eat up a ton of mana, have tap abilities and are horrible slow and clunky.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Commander Banned and unbanned announcemnt

    Players already had those ideas in the exact moment the card was spoiled, which is why it was insta-banned and never been legal in first place.

    Yea, the card either does NOTHING as you cannot cast it without killing yourself, or it ends the game and you win (and in any halve competitive table it does just nothing as theres no way such a card beats any reasonable combo and if you "know" they go for this, chances are the opponent can just abuse it and win themselves with it).

    It never ever does anything fun or interesting at all.


    Quote from Ritokure »
    Field of the Dead is the tip of the iceberg, because while it's obnoxious as hell at least 2/2 Zombies take some time before they win the game.
    The World Tree was the real last straw. That stupid card plus Golos says "do whatever the hell you want once you hit 5 mana". You can literally play Ultimatum Tribal with Golos consistently and there's nothing anyone can do about it unless the rest of the table happens to have some land hate before you start vomiting Commander's strongest spells at them. And God help you if the Golos player happens to run Petrified Field. To this announcement I say "good riddance" and let the Golos players either cry or learn how to build decks for once.

    The constant stream of zombies is what gives you a completely free bonus that happens to keep you alive and wins the game at some point.

    If someone goes the for the tree, thats totally cool, a 5-color deck that wants to play all kinds of wacky mana cost cards is janky enough that this is as casual friendly as possible.

    Golos is a artifact for gods sake, how is a table not able to simply kill it over and over again forever ?

    (and while you dont need mass land destruction, its really just some very specific lands that you "always" tutor first as they are so much more busted than anything else, and that is the worst sin of EDH , repetitive gameplay if a player does the exact same steps every time).
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Commander Banned and unbanned announcemnt
    Quote from Dale Dan Tony »
    Thank the Heavens. While Golos is a cool card, it's just too good for multiple reasons, and it feels bad to play against.

    The biggest offender is the first target is always Field of the Dead and then its a game of getting zombies for free.

    Casting big spells from the top is what the card is doing.

    I have never seen anybody complain about Golos itself (just the bad problems tutoring a Wasteland for Crucible of Worlds and such interactions), hes the most Timmy commander of all of them.

    If a deck gets better by putting Golos as a commander , compared to having an actual Commander that works with your deck ... well, your deck might just be utter crap in powerlevel perspective.


    Worldfire is a card thats never ever fun.

    Its just Game over all the time , and thats all its ever doing.

    Having it on the banned list is still quite pointless, as the people that play this to begin with, choose their own misery.


    Overall super weird changes ...
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [MID] Morbid Opportunist— PlayEDH Discord preview
    Once per turn is fine for slow and durdly commander groups, where this can produce a lot of extra cards over several turns.

    If the group is more about combos, chances are this will barely cantrip.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [MID] The rest of the cards
    Quote from DJK3654 »
    So they printed a white disenchant on legs creature like people have been asking for. And another white cantrip creature, a strong white removal, more plains tutoring, repeatable card draw. A bunch of things really.
    They are definitely making an effort.

    The "flash" on the white creature is pretty pushed.

    Decks usually worked with Aether Vial to get the flash speed, but just casting it and having the potential to be there is a thing that changes how a opponent has to respect it and being a human, it can be uncounterable as well, so its pretty much all upside on many levels.

    So if anyone wants a Disenchant this is basically just better in almost any case , especially as recurring creatures from the graveyard is WAY easier and white has a bunch of options to get manacost 2 creatures back.

    If a card pushed like this does not see play in constructed, we can be quite sure the formats have some serious issues (if 2+1 mana to disenchant is "too slow" for example).
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [MID] Fifth Adversary and White Removal
    Were you seriously expecting every red, green, and non-Teferi multicolor card to be a Werewolf?

    In the past they would have done it, with extreme sets like Torment (lots of black) , or Legion (all creatures).

    Today the sets are more generic checklist style, they pretty much do the same over and over again.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [MID] The rest of the cards
    Quote from pierrebai »

    Two 2/2 for one card with GY hate value? at 1 and 2 CMC? What a common.

    The token has decay, but still, you get like 4 damage out of it and 2 cards.

    Instant speed is pretty nice if you ever need targeted grave hate this does a good job at it.

    Overall the graveyard HATE in this set is especially strong in green and black, pretty pushed cards to ensure nothing that works with the graveyard will do any good.

    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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