Here's the direction I'm taking this deck. Taking some inspiration from Ali Aintrazi's list, which is almost solely removal, I'm looking to keep the board clear.
The Mizzium Mortars should probably be Dreadbores for versatility.
Vinylhack: I agree with you entirely on Merciless Eviction, and I think it's incredibly good in this deck. It can deal with more than just creatures, and that makes it good in more matchups. Being able to take out their planeswalkers is just insane.
Chirisu: It's a decent way to deal with those creatures, but it still leaves them with a threat that can hurt you. I know, a 3/3 vanilla on the ground isn't frightening. But it's still something that has to be dealt with. I would rather not give my opponent anything and instead counter it or Far//Away it.
Purp: I think we pilot this deck in very different ways. With a Maze's End out, I want to be playing draw-go and getting lots of land. I want to hit every land drop. And that means I'll have plenty of mana for a late-game syncopate. Will it resolve through other counter magic? Possibly not. But it's the fact that it's versatile that makes it good. Swan Song can't counter Ashiok or Chandra. Swan Song can't counter Sire of Insanity, Ruric Thar, or Fanatic of Mogis/Gray Merchant of Asphodel. I would rather have the versatility of a counter that can hit anything they can cast and is easy to cast in a 5-color deck like this than a situational counter that gives them something we have to deal with.
The control version is a different deck that i feell deserves a different thread. In a month or so, we can start looking at how to build that, but in this undefined early meta i think fogging is probably the better play.
I feel my list is still a "fog" list. I may not be running 12-16 fog effects, but I consider a wrath effect to be the equivalent of 2 fogs with the upside of them potentially running out of threats. But, if you'd prefer I didn't discuss my list here, I can take my leave.
Do we really like Urban Evolution? Like, from 1 to 5 stars, how much do they need? I'm trying now a new build with none of them and I'm not finding any problem in not having them. I'm not missing them all that much...
Urban Evolution, for me, has been nearly as good as Sphinx's Revelation. Playing an additional land speeds up our win condition, which can be seen as equivalent to gaining life in some respects. And it's more efficient at 5 mana. I think it's an excellent play post-wrath. But, I feel my list seems to be going in a different direction than many of the rest of them here. Whenever I want to add a card, I immediately reach for a fog variant to cut.
Here's a quick update of the list I've been running. It's been performing pretty well, and it now has maindeck answers to Ashiok and other planeswalkers before turn 6.
I've been enjoying success in my playtesting with this. Before this revision, I still lost to Ashiok and Rakdos's Return, especially in G1. Now, I'm okay giving up some ground G1 against control decks if I expect the format to be almost purely aggro at whatever tourney I may be playing, but I think keeping some answers maindeck against control is a good thing. Syncopate is our friend here. It allows us to counter a T3 Ashiok when we're on the play, and can stop both opposing Sphinx's Revelations and Rakdos's Returns rather easily. And, perhaps most importantly, it exiles, meaning they can't use Whip of Erebos to bring back their Grey Merchant or Fanatic of Mogis.
I think Into the Wilds can work, but only with a large amount of scry. I've found it to be much too inconsistent without any library manipulation when I'm running less than 28-29 lands. I would rather just run more removal and card draw than Into the Wilds in this deck, but I can see how it could work for some.
Sad too see no turbo fog results from both the tcg and scg open
I feel this deck is too risky to play in the first tournament of a format. We're all about having all the answers, and in an unknown format, it's hard to answer everything. After this tourney, we've got a better idea of what we need to answer. G/R Midrange, Mono Red Aggro, U/W(/B) control, R/W/B midrange, and G/W Aggro/midrange seem to be the better decks that have come out of the first couple of tournaments. Some talk is being made by pros about other decks that could be good: R/B Devotion midrange, Bant flash control, etc. Ashiok will probably see more play.
I think Syncopate deserves a spot, especially in the side, maybe in the main. What seems to hurt this deck most is an early Ashiok, a turn-4 Fanatic of Mogis, and Rakdos's Return. These plays can all be stopped, for value, w/ a Syncopate. Thoughts?
The existence of Ashiok forces 2 of each gate, unless you want an automatic loss when it resolves. With two of each gate, if it's milled, you just search up the other copy, no problem. With one copy, you scoop.
I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to lose against a single card.
But what if the Ashiok activation hits both lands?
I think your logic is flawed. But mostly because you're attacking the situation from the wrong direction. Instead of making your manabase potentially worse or, even worse, taking out spells to put in more land, why not just add a spell to counteract that effect? I'm personally not too terribly worried about it. I don't expect Ashiok to be played in the main by many people, and after sideboards, I have Crackling Perimeter as another win condition and a way to shoot down Ashiok and other planeswalkers. But, if you want to have a way to fight this threat either in the main or sideboard, play a Bow of Nylea.
A couple of things I have discovered during playtesting -
-Two of Saruli Gatekeepers is incredibly good main deck. It helps against Obzedat, Ghost Council. It helps against RDW. It buys you at least one turn against any deck that tries to bring your life to zero. It can stall out a board if the opponent is holding a weak hand. Dropping it after a Supreme Verdict also presents a non-trivial threat.
-Swan Song has been underwhelming for me. It doesn't counter Obzedat (which our deck only has awkward answers to), it doesn't counter Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver or Jace, Memory Adept (the mill/exile can make a game unwinnable if it hits the right Gates).
-I prefer Dissolve since you won't need to counter anything before turn 3 anyway. Usually, it's a choice between countering a spell and activating Maze's End, so you should have 3 mana open anyway. The opponent also won't be casting Skullcrack until at least turn 4, so if you suspect it, you can play around it. My only reservation with relying on Dissolve is that we won't have three up to cast it if they curve into Burning Earth while we're on the draw.
-I cut Read the Bones, since too many games come down to the wire. It might we worth boarding in against control, but I haven't tried it yet.
-For card draw, I highly recommend Inspiration. Too often, we leave 4 untapped on the opponents turn waiting for something to counter, or to active Maze. Giving us one more EoT option doesn't seem bad. For a draw-go deck, the instant speed is really nice, and unlike Uncovered Clues, you can dig for lands when you really need that second white to cast Supreme Verdict.
-I think I'm cutting a few copies of Slaughter Games from the board. It usually becomes the target of Thoughtseize, and when you do get to resolve it, it doesn't help too much unless you remove a silver bullet like Ruric Thar, the Unbowed. Remember, most of their 4-ofs are dead against our deck anyway. These slots might be better as counterspells.
-Negate might be too narrow for our purposes. I need a hard answer to Obzedat, Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, and that guy that makes you discard your hand at the end of turn, but Essence Scatter doesn't hit Skullcrack, counterspells, or planeswalkers. There has got to be a better solution than just running both. Maybe some of you more familiar with the cards in the format can help me.
-Cyclonic Rift is an MVP. It's your answer to Pithing Needle, Fleeceman Lion, and almost everything else our other cards can't deal with. I'm considering adding a fourth to the board.
-What is Crackling Perimeter used for? I find that Pithing Needle is very easy to play around, and that boarding in an extra win con just crowds out answer cards, which our deck desperately needs. In which matchups would it be useful? Do you normally side out Maze's End for it? Would like to hear your experience with this card.
-What are your thoughts about playing Mind Rot or other forms of discard? It nets us card advantage, and I would rather deal with most of their cards while still in their hand rather than when they hit the board.
I've only played this deck for six hours or so, and I would appreciate some thoughts from more experienced pilots.
Let's see if I can help here:
I agree with you wholeheartedly on Saruli Gatekeepers. In my testing, every time they've resolved, I've won. It buys you so much time, can block quite a few things profitably, and basically is exactly what this deck is looking to do. I'm only playing 1 in the sideboard, but that's only because I don't know what else to take out of my sideboard for the fourth.
Swan Song is indeed not where this deck wants to be. Not only does it not counter some of this deck's biggest threats, it also does give them a 2/2 flyer, which is incredibly relevant if you can't remove it. Now, this deck does play plenty of ways to get rid of that token. But having to spend a card to get rid of something they didn't have to use a card for is pretty rough.
The Dissolve/Inspiration package is an interesting one, and I think I'll playtest a little with that. I'm not completely sold on Dissolve over the cheaper counterspells, Negate and Essence Scatter, in the sideboard. But I can see how that would be a good catch-all. And being able to play 3 Dissolves in the side over 2 each of the 2-mana conditional counters would free up a slot for something else. Like that fourth Saruli.
I bring in Slaughter Games against decks w/o very many win conditions, and particularly against win conditions we have a hard time against. It's a preemptive answer, and since we'll be giving our opponent plenty of time to draw threats, I prefer to nip them in the bud if we have the chance. This is particularly true against ramp decks and control decks.
Crackling Perimeter is this deck's answer to control decks. Not only does it put our opponent on a faster clock than Maze's End itself, it works around Pithing Needle (which I'm really never all that worried about), and you can redirect the damage to planewalkers, which is big game in this format.
I don't think I'm a fan of discard in this deck, because we're not putting our opponents under enough pressure for that discard to remain relevant. They'll have plenty of time to draw other threats. We're not hitting them with a Tarmagoyf or a Blood Baron.
In short, we're on the same page with a lot of this deck, and I look forward to seeing where the rest of your testing takes you. I'll try out the Dissolve/Inspiration package as well. I tend to lose the games where I'm stuck w/ two Urban Evolutions and a Sphinx's Revelation in hand and no relevant removal/fogs, and those would be cheaper ways of refilling my hand. Thanks for the post!
Any suggestions for Skullcrack besides 4 Dispel in sb?
Personally, I haven't been a fan of Dispel in the sideboard. I'd rather play Negate, since it's more versatile and it's rare when we'll be wanting for mana.
I told that some pages ago, but everybody ignored me I run 3x of them in the MB and I find them WONDERFUL! Sure, you need mana, but when the turns go on and you run out of cards, doing 2x1 is so helpful.
Plus, am I the only one here that doesn't like creatures in the deck (of course Gatecreeper, but they are tutors with legs)? Some says to try the Sphynx, other says the new oracle, but do we really need to spend our mana for something is gonna die immediatly? Remouval are in every deck, and since we don't have creatures, opponents have their hands full of them.
I hope I've explained myself
I think Saruli Gatekeepers is completely worth it. It'll block a decent amount of creatures, the 7 life is huge, and the only other thing I'd rather be doing in this deck for four mana is casting Supreme Verdict. Heck, I've even attacked an opponent down to 6 life with a Gatekeepers when I had control over the game but couldn't find a Maze's End.
Where is the 'turbo' component for this deck? All I see is the 'fog' part
The turbo comes from being able to put more lands in play than our opponents and gaining card advantage through these means. This is different than any other turbofog deck I've played (and I've played quite a few; it's usually a pet deck of mine). We don't want to mill them. We just want to survive until we can get our uncounterable win con online. I tend to play it like a draw-go control deck, only tapping out for sweepers and the occasional Gatekeeper. And, to be honest, I think it's better than the traditional concept of "turbo fog". Here, we don't have to beat our opponent's entire deck.
I haven't read the entire thread up to this point, so I apologize if I'm repeating discussion that has already taken place. Have people tested Blind Obedience in this deck? It seems like a decent sideboard plan against some of the faster aggro decks that have hasty creatures that our sorcery speed wraths can't deal with. And the extort surely would pull us out of danger every once in a while.
Aetherize is pretty good, but I'm holding off putting it in the main for now. If there are a lot of hasty red decks in the format, Aetherize won't help too terribly much. I would rather run a Cyclonic Rift to deal with noncreature permanents and more sweepers to deal with creatures more permanently.
The only time I've been disappointed by Sphinx's Revelation is when I'm at low life, I have six land in play and have a Sphinx's and two Urban Evolutions in hand. Otherwise, I know that if I need to dig for an answer or gain a couple life to keep my life total comfortable, I can cast that Sphinx for three or so and be perfectly happy with it.
Pithing Needle turns off Maze's End and eliminates that win condition, right? Probably not the only such card, but it is the one that comes to mind at the moment. Do you have an answer for such a card in your SB, or just ignoring it because so few will be playing it (in their SB)?
Edit: I guess I see Detention Sphere is the SB of some lists. Are you automatically bringing this in for game 2, or are you waiting until you see Pithing Needle and only bringing it in after that?
Detention Spheres aren't the only card we have to get rid of them. Personally, I play Merciless Evictions mainboard (which can deal with Pithing Needles and just about anything else that worries you), as well as Cyclonic Rifts. Just bounce the Needle the turn you can win, and you're golden. And I have Negates and Fade into Antiquities in the sideboard to further deal with Needles. Honestly, I'm more afraid of a well-timed Rakdos's Return or Dispel than a Needle.
If a deck is known or expected to have Needles, I'll probably side in some removal for it. But again, I'm not too worried about them.
I was wondering why Omenspeaker dissapeared from all of your lists. Has anyone actually testet her on the field?
I have not yet, and I think I need to play against some faster red decks before I consider Omenspeaker to be the right fit for this deck. If it's able to block consistently and more than just once, then I'll give it more of a chance. Right now, I prefer Gatecreeper Vine, but that's only because I feel the color fixing it gets me is very important, especially towards the goal of a t4 Supreme Verdict or a t6 Merciless Eviction.
As a further thought, I think I'm going to get rid of my 1-of Defend the Hearth and put in an Archaeomancer. Getting back a wrath or a utility spell from the sideboard is pretty good here. Thoughts?
The Mizzium Mortars should probably be Dreadbores for versatility.
3 Saruli Gatekeepers
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Azorius Charm
1 Rapid Hybridization
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Merciless Eviction
2 Warleader's Helix
3 Far//Away
2 Inspiration
3 Urban Evolution
2 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Syncopate
2 Plains
1 Island
3 Simic Guildgate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Dimir Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Azorius Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Golgari Guildgate
1 Gruul Guildgate
1 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Pithing Needle
2 Crackling Perimeter
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Dissolve
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Slaughter Games
1 Merciless Eviction
2 Rapid Hybridization
Other possible sideboard cards:
-1 Merciless Eviction
+1 Crackling Perimeter?
+1 Planar Cleansing?
I'll be testing this tonight before a non-States tourney tomorrow. I would appreciate any feedback y'all might have. Thanks!
Chirisu: It's a decent way to deal with those creatures, but it still leaves them with a threat that can hurt you. I know, a 3/3 vanilla on the ground isn't frightening. But it's still something that has to be dealt with. I would rather not give my opponent anything and instead counter it or Far//Away it.
Purp: I think we pilot this deck in very different ways. With a Maze's End out, I want to be playing draw-go and getting lots of land. I want to hit every land drop. And that means I'll have plenty of mana for a late-game syncopate. Will it resolve through other counter magic? Possibly not. But it's the fact that it's versatile that makes it good. Swan Song can't counter Ashiok or Chandra. Swan Song can't counter Sire of Insanity, Ruric Thar, or Fanatic of Mogis/Gray Merchant of Asphodel. I would rather have the versatility of a counter that can hit anything they can cast and is easy to cast in a 5-color deck like this than a situational counter that gives them something we have to deal with.
I feel my list is still a "fog" list. I may not be running 12-16 fog effects, but I consider a wrath effect to be the equivalent of 2 fogs with the upside of them potentially running out of threats. But, if you'd prefer I didn't discuss my list here, I can take my leave.
Urban Evolution, for me, has been nearly as good as Sphinx's Revelation. Playing an additional land speeds up our win condition, which can be seen as equivalent to gaining life in some respects. And it's more efficient at 5 mana. I think it's an excellent play post-wrath. But, I feel my list seems to be going in a different direction than many of the rest of them here. Whenever I want to add a card, I immediately reach for a fog variant to cut.
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Crackling Perimeter
2 Dimir Guildgate
2 Druid's Deliverance
2 Far//Away
4 Fog
1 Forest
3 Gatecreeper Vine
2 Golgari Guildgate
1 Gruul Guildgate
2 Inspiration
1 Island
2 Izzet Guildgate
4 Maze's End
3 Merciless Eviction
2 Orzhov Guildgate
1 Plains
1 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Riot Control
2 Saruli Gatekeepers
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Syncopate
3 Urban Evolution
2 Crackling Perimeter
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Dissolve
1 Fade Into Antiquity
1 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Pithing Needle
1 Saruli Gatekeepers
2 Slaughter Games
1 Syncopate
I've been enjoying success in my playtesting with this. Before this revision, I still lost to Ashiok and Rakdos's Return, especially in G1. Now, I'm okay giving up some ground G1 against control decks if I expect the format to be almost purely aggro at whatever tourney I may be playing, but I think keeping some answers maindeck against control is a good thing. Syncopate is our friend here. It allows us to counter a T3 Ashiok when we're on the play, and can stop both opposing Sphinx's Revelations and Rakdos's Returns rather easily. And, perhaps most importantly, it exiles, meaning they can't use Whip of Erebos to bring back their Grey Merchant or Fanatic of Mogis.
I think Into the Wilds can work, but only with a large amount of scry. I've found it to be much too inconsistent without any library manipulation when I'm running less than 28-29 lands. I would rather just run more removal and card draw than Into the Wilds in this deck, but I can see how it could work for some.
I feel this deck is too risky to play in the first tournament of a format. We're all about having all the answers, and in an unknown format, it's hard to answer everything. After this tourney, we've got a better idea of what we need to answer. G/R Midrange, Mono Red Aggro, U/W(/B) control, R/W/B midrange, and G/W Aggro/midrange seem to be the better decks that have come out of the first couple of tournaments. Some talk is being made by pros about other decks that could be good: R/B Devotion midrange, Bant flash control, etc. Ashiok will probably see more play.
I think Syncopate deserves a spot, especially in the side, maybe in the main. What seems to hurt this deck most is an early Ashiok, a turn-4 Fanatic of Mogis, and Rakdos's Return. These plays can all be stopped, for value, w/ a Syncopate. Thoughts?
Sorry, I was thinking of mill in general, not of Ashiok's exiling ability.
I would beat Ashiok with Crackling Perimeter. It gives us a different win condition, and we can shoot down the planeswalker pretty easily with it.
But what if the Ashiok activation hits both lands?
I think your logic is flawed. But mostly because you're attacking the situation from the wrong direction. Instead of making your manabase potentially worse or, even worse, taking out spells to put in more land, why not just add a spell to counteract that effect? I'm personally not too terribly worried about it. I don't expect Ashiok to be played in the main by many people, and after sideboards, I have Crackling Perimeter as another win condition and a way to shoot down Ashiok and other planeswalkers. But, if you want to have a way to fight this threat either in the main or sideboard, play a Bow of Nylea.
Right now, I feel Gatecreeper is essential. I also think Gatekeepers are essential.
Let's see if I can help here:
I agree with you wholeheartedly on Saruli Gatekeepers. In my testing, every time they've resolved, I've won. It buys you so much time, can block quite a few things profitably, and basically is exactly what this deck is looking to do. I'm only playing 1 in the sideboard, but that's only because I don't know what else to take out of my sideboard for the fourth.
Swan Song is indeed not where this deck wants to be. Not only does it not counter some of this deck's biggest threats, it also does give them a 2/2 flyer, which is incredibly relevant if you can't remove it. Now, this deck does play plenty of ways to get rid of that token. But having to spend a card to get rid of something they didn't have to use a card for is pretty rough.
The Dissolve/Inspiration package is an interesting one, and I think I'll playtest a little with that. I'm not completely sold on Dissolve over the cheaper counterspells, Negate and Essence Scatter, in the sideboard. But I can see how that would be a good catch-all. And being able to play 3 Dissolves in the side over 2 each of the 2-mana conditional counters would free up a slot for something else. Like that fourth Saruli.
I bring in Slaughter Games against decks w/o very many win conditions, and particularly against win conditions we have a hard time against. It's a preemptive answer, and since we'll be giving our opponent plenty of time to draw threats, I prefer to nip them in the bud if we have the chance. This is particularly true against ramp decks and control decks.
Crackling Perimeter is this deck's answer to control decks. Not only does it put our opponent on a faster clock than Maze's End itself, it works around Pithing Needle (which I'm really never all that worried about), and you can redirect the damage to planewalkers, which is big game in this format.
I don't think I'm a fan of discard in this deck, because we're not putting our opponents under enough pressure for that discard to remain relevant. They'll have plenty of time to draw other threats. We're not hitting them with a Tarmagoyf or a Blood Baron.
In short, we're on the same page with a lot of this deck, and I look forward to seeing where the rest of your testing takes you. I'll try out the Dissolve/Inspiration package as well. I tend to lose the games where I'm stuck w/ two Urban Evolutions and a Sphinx's Revelation in hand and no relevant removal/fogs, and those would be cheaper ways of refilling my hand. Thanks for the post!
Personally, I haven't been a fan of Dispel in the sideboard. I'd rather play Negate, since it's more versatile and it's rare when we'll be wanting for mana.
I think Saruli Gatekeepers is completely worth it. It'll block a decent amount of creatures, the 7 life is huge, and the only other thing I'd rather be doing in this deck for four mana is casting Supreme Verdict. Heck, I've even attacked an opponent down to 6 life with a Gatekeepers when I had control over the game but couldn't find a Maze's End.
The turbo comes from being able to put more lands in play than our opponents and gaining card advantage through these means. This is different than any other turbofog deck I've played (and I've played quite a few; it's usually a pet deck of mine). We don't want to mill them. We just want to survive until we can get our uncounterable win con online. I tend to play it like a draw-go control deck, only tapping out for sweepers and the occasional Gatekeeper. And, to be honest, I think it's better than the traditional concept of "turbo fog". Here, we don't have to beat our opponent's entire deck.
I haven't read the entire thread up to this point, so I apologize if I'm repeating discussion that has already taken place. Have people tested Blind Obedience in this deck? It seems like a decent sideboard plan against some of the faster aggro decks that have hasty creatures that our sorcery speed wraths can't deal with. And the extort surely would pull us out of danger every once in a while.
I believe they're suggesting that our opponents may run them.
Detention Spheres aren't the only card we have to get rid of them. Personally, I play Merciless Evictions mainboard (which can deal with Pithing Needles and just about anything else that worries you), as well as Cyclonic Rifts. Just bounce the Needle the turn you can win, and you're golden. And I have Negates and Fade into Antiquities in the sideboard to further deal with Needles. Honestly, I'm more afraid of a well-timed Rakdos's Return or Dispel than a Needle.
If a deck is known or expected to have Needles, I'll probably side in some removal for it. But again, I'm not too worried about them.
I have not yet, and I think I need to play against some faster red decks before I consider Omenspeaker to be the right fit for this deck. If it's able to block consistently and more than just once, then I'll give it more of a chance. Right now, I prefer Gatecreeper Vine, but that's only because I feel the color fixing it gets me is very important, especially towards the goal of a t4 Supreme Verdict or a t6 Merciless Eviction.
As a further thought, I think I'm going to get rid of my 1-of Defend the Hearth and put in an Archaeomancer. Getting back a wrath or a utility spell from the sideboard is pretty good here. Thoughts?