Legacy may not be as fast as vintage, but it is still balls to the wall fast. Most cards that are 'decent' or 'playable' in standard are completely out of the question when it comes to playability in legacy.
This is 99% unplayable in Legacy, but hey, Ultimate Walker might be able to utilize it! There are better options, but I'm just thinking outseide the box.
How have people been faring against the Jund menace? The only testing I've gotten against Jund is against my friend who just recently learned magic. I'm guessing it's around 50-50 against a good player...
Here's my list:
The Hindering Light in the SB is pretty much a 5th counter for Blightning. Flashfreeze is just so sick right now; it counters literally every card in Jund. The Stags come in directly for Jenara in the Jund matchups, as she's a little underwhelming against them. On a sidenote, I really like the Boros matchup. It's becoming really popular in my meta, and this deck lays the smackdown on it.
So I'm a big fan of Mid-range control decks, and I think planeswalkers are quite an awesome form of card advantage, so here is my Bant Planeswalker Control list!
Yes, this is similar to Bant mid-range. The gameplay, however, is quite different so I thought it earned its own thread. The ramp is an important aspect of this deck, because some of the good plays include: turn 2 War Monk, turn 2 Jace (depending on the situation), turn 3 Elspeth or Garruk, turn 3 or 4 Baneslayer. If they kill your ramp, they are wasting a spell that would otherwise kill a threat. The Removal suit along with the Flashfreezes is selected very specifically after quite a bit of playtesting. This deck is quite reliable and very fun to play. I need to actually get all these cards in order to play it in competitive tournaments, but so far I'm quite excited about the deck. I feel like the high count of planeswalkers makes this deck a little stronger than a straight Bant mid-range deck, but that's my personal opinion.
Not really. We know that there were no specific plans to do so at the time they printed the card; we also know that quite a few people in R&D put to themselves the task of how to invent a mechanic that made the Boss make sense.
As far as I know, there has yet to be anything in FS that R&D have explicitly stated publicly that "yeah, we definitely will never revisit that" (although I know there are such elements in the set).
He calls Steamflogger Boss a "joke" and says he laughs at the thought of it. This article should be proof that there are cards in Future Sight that R&D will never revisit. Yes, it does have the clause 'at the time it was created', but we should not read into this too much; I'm pretty sure Matt Place's tone about Steamflogger Boss suggests that it will never be revisited.
I use the Blue mana symbol Ion-deck box for my Legacy Eva Green deck, and on turn 0 some people are scared I have Force in my hand. It's even better when I bluff a Daze with Polluted Delta in play! haha Mind games are fun and occassionally quite effective.
I can see where you are going with volcanic fallout over pyroclasm. Clasm's still good in my book, and I'm thinking of throwing 2 in the board against any Mono-white. While not nearly as prolific as last season's 'tokens' builds, it can amass a swarm of lil' dudes you want dead.
Fallout, when put under a microscope against Boros seems much better. Being able to wipe their board on their turn frees you up to cast feels very blue, clearing up mana during my turn to do *whatever*.
As for your gripes with bogardan hellkite-I really don't understand the problem. If played correctly (EOT) he gets in there for 9, and in a pinch Into the Roil can recycle him. Sphinx is great, that's why it's in here, but I've always been a fan of diversified threats. Again, I'm only in the testing phases so I'm certainly willing to adapt this build to whatever comes up.
Other things:
1) I'm seeing swerve in sideboards. Why don't I have Swerve? Because I'm stupid and forgot about it. It's going in right damn now.
2)Jace Beleren vs. Chandra Nalaar there's really no comparison here. They both serve important, yet separate functions. In my experience within the last 2 1/2 years Jace is absolutely essential in U/x control. You need that CA and Jace routinely, continuously provides it amongst other services. Chandra is great, and with a few of my games against G/W Aggro,Soldiers,and Boros she deserves a 3-of slot. I'm thinking of dropping 1 fallout for a third Chandra. I'll be sure to update after tomorrow.
How has Bogardan Hellkite been working with your manabase? Like me, you play 25 land and 6 of your lands are fetches. Do you find that it's easy to reach 8 when you need to? If so, I'd definitely like to try a couple Hellkites.
I've been testing this recently and Volcanic Fallout is infinitely better than Pyroclasm. I really don't see why you would ever run Pyroclasm over Fallout. It significantly increases your matchups against Boros and RDW which are very popular right now.
I also like only running 2 Gargoyle Castles as my only non-fetch nonbasics. It makes ruinblasters either dead, or they won't even bring them in.
So, the whole deal with this "Divination" thing is vexing me...
Now MS is IMO situational at best, depending if you've accelerated enough in your lands to hard-cast it an replicate with PA. The same applies with Div.
I myself have been testing Ior Ruin Expedition for CA, and has helped in a few games to throw me into Solitare mode. This card has what divination dosent and vice versa. It's "instant" useable, it barely needs any effort to get out (Hint: play a search land or harrow) Which also is useable when you need it to refill your hand, cause disruption of your opponent's plays, and like I mentioned before, pays for itself.
As for divination, how often you find yourself copying it more than maybe 1 time?
Just my 2 pennies...
I have copied divination a bajillion times. I have also helped ascended pyro with it. It's a very crucial card in this deck.
For anyone playing Grixis, I have to say that Blightning is one of the best cards in the deck, and it should definitely be 4-of maindeck. A copied Blightning will win the game, and even Blightning by itself is sick nasty in a deck that relies on burning your opponent to death and card advantage.
He boarded in some stuff that didn't hurt me too too much; he should've had runeblasters, as I feel like those would have been painful. I'm not saying that it's an 'easy' matchup by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just saying my playtesting went very well and made me feel like this is defintitely not a bad matchup at all.
You make good points and have a very detailed argument.
I think that you don't give the Pyro Ascension enough credit though. If it is ascended, it makes every card in your deck superior to Jund's. For example, your argument doesn't really make sense for Blighting. 2 Blightnings for the cost of 3 mana and one card is much better than a 3/2 haste and a Blightning (that is randomly played) for 4 mana. Granted the prior situation has to have the initial investment of playing and ascending the pyro - but once this happens, it affects every card in your deck! Even a single Volcanic Fallout can trade with Broodmate Dragon and its token.
Even without Pyro Ascension, this deck plays exactly like Grixis control with an emphasis on burn. The card advantage + the massive amounts of removal will make it very difficult for your Jund opponent to win, especially when the winning bombs are Cruel vs. Broodmate. Broodmate can be partially answered while Cruel is far more powerful anyways, and Jund can't do anything about it. On top of this, Jund will usually have 5-6 dead cards maindeck (one being a cascade spell), increasing your card advantage.
I playtested against Jund a lot today, and I was extremely excited about my results. I found that it was almost imossible to lose while ascended, and I still won the MAJORITY of games while I didn't even have pyro.
I think most of your arguments are very good, but I think sometimes you might not give this deck enough credit when compared to Jund.
This is 99% unplayable in Legacy, but hey, Ultimate Walker might be able to utilize it! There are better options, but I'm just thinking outseide the box.
Here's my list:
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Baneslayer Angel
2 Jenara
3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
1 Vines of Vastwood
3 Flashfreeze
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
2 Mindspring
5 Forest
2 Island
3 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Deft Duelist
4 Luminarch Ascension
3 Celestial Purge
2 Great Sable Stag
1 Hindering Light
1 Flashfreeze
The Hindering Light in the SB is pretty much a 5th counter for Blightning. Flashfreeze is just so sick right now; it counters literally every card in Jund. The Stags come in directly for Jenara in the Jund matchups, as she's a little underwhelming against them. On a sidenote, I really like the Boros matchup. It's becoming really popular in my meta, and this deck lays the smackdown on it.
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Flashfreeze
3 Bant Charm
4 Path to Exile
4 Garruk
4 Jace
2 Elspeth
2 Island
3 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Deft Duelist
4 Luminarch Ascension
4 Celestial Purge
2 Negate
1 Flashfreeze
Yes, this is similar to Bant mid-range. The gameplay, however, is quite different so I thought it earned its own thread. The ramp is an important aspect of this deck, because some of the good plays include: turn 2 War Monk, turn 2 Jace (depending on the situation), turn 3 Elspeth or Garruk, turn 3 or 4 Baneslayer. If they kill your ramp, they are wasting a spell that would otherwise kill a threat. The Removal suit along with the Flashfreezes is selected very specifically after quite a bit of playtesting. This deck is quite reliable and very fun to play. I need to actually get all these cards in order to play it in competitive tournaments, but so far I'm quite excited about the deck. I feel like the high count of planeswalkers makes this deck a little stronger than a straight Bant mid-range deck, but that's my personal opinion.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/66
He calls Steamflogger Boss a "joke" and says he laughs at the thought of it. This article should be proof that there are cards in Future Sight that R&D will never revisit. Yes, it does have the clause 'at the time it was created', but we should not read into this too much; I'm pretty sure Matt Place's tone about Steamflogger Boss suggests that it will never be revisited.
How has Bogardan Hellkite been working with your manabase? Like me, you play 25 land and 6 of your lands are fetches. Do you find that it's easy to reach 8 when you need to? If so, I'd definitely like to try a couple Hellkites.
I've been testing this recently and Volcanic Fallout is infinitely better than Pyroclasm. I really don't see why you would ever run Pyroclasm over Fallout. It significantly increases your matchups against Boros and RDW which are very popular right now.
I also like only running 2 Gargoyle Castles as my only non-fetch nonbasics. It makes ruinblasters either dead, or they won't even bring them in.
I have copied divination a bajillion times. I have also helped ascended pyro with it. It's a very crucial card in this deck.
4 Burst Lightning
3 Volcanic Fallout
4 Divination
4 Ponder
3 Terminate
4 Blightning
4 Pyromancer Ascension
3 Time Warp
3 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Drowned Catacombs
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Mountain
3 Island
3 Swamp
1 Magosi, the Waterveil
4 Negate
4 Magma Spray
4 Swerve
2 Telemin Performance
1 Volcanic Fallout
4 Putrid Leech
4 Sprouting Thrinax
3 Broodmate Dragon
1 Great Sable Stag
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Bituminous Blast
3 Terminate
4 Blightning
2 Garruk
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Dragon skull Summit
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
He boarded in some stuff that didn't hurt me too too much; he should've had runeblasters, as I feel like those would have been painful. I'm not saying that it's an 'easy' matchup by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just saying my playtesting went very well and made me feel like this is defintitely not a bad matchup at all.
You make good points and have a very detailed argument.
I think that you don't give the Pyro Ascension enough credit though. If it is ascended, it makes every card in your deck superior to Jund's. For example, your argument doesn't really make sense for Blighting. 2 Blightnings for the cost of 3 mana and one card is much better than a 3/2 haste and a Blightning (that is randomly played) for 4 mana. Granted the prior situation has to have the initial investment of playing and ascending the pyro - but once this happens, it affects every card in your deck! Even a single Volcanic Fallout can trade with Broodmate Dragon and its token.
Even without Pyro Ascension, this deck plays exactly like Grixis control with an emphasis on burn. The card advantage + the massive amounts of removal will make it very difficult for your Jund opponent to win, especially when the winning bombs are Cruel vs. Broodmate. Broodmate can be partially answered while Cruel is far more powerful anyways, and Jund can't do anything about it. On top of this, Jund will usually have 5-6 dead cards maindeck (one being a cascade spell), increasing your card advantage.
I playtested against Jund a lot today, and I was extremely excited about my results. I found that it was almost imossible to lose while ascended, and I still won the MAJORITY of games while I didn't even have pyro.
I think most of your arguments are very good, but I think sometimes you might not give this deck enough credit when compared to Jund.