My buddies and I have been playing Legacy for the last 28 hours except for when we slept... haha. But in playing this deck extensively, it is clear that Stoneforge Mystic is absolutely amazing. One of each sword (Fire and Ice, Light and Shadow) is also amazing. Everyone should test these cards!
I think of any number of decks that could play a 1 CC card on turn 2 and not lose tempo, playing around Daze, or Spellsnare, or whatever.
Affinity, Zoo, Goblins, ANT, Fish, Tempo Thresh, Stax.
All those decks have viable turn 2 plays with cards that cost 1 (or in Affinity's case, 0).
How as a Zoo deck lost Tempo if they throw out another Kird Ape or Wild Nacatl instead of Pridemage or Goyf in fear of Daze or Spellsnare?
What about Fish? Throwing out Vial or Cursecatcher?
I'm not arguing the fact that Delta works for Evagreen, because it fetches the lands we want.
What I'm saying is bluffing Daze with a Delta when you have no turn 1 play is not going to get you anywhere against a lot of the field.
A simple Fetch for a Swamp when your opponent does not have Blue open is the best play, whether you seem to believe so or not. And until you can actually prove to me that bluffing a Daze on turn one the draw with no turn 1 play actually provides tempo, well, I think I've just proven my point.
The fact that you said 'a lot of the field' and not 'all of the field' proves my point exactly. And Playing a single Kird Ape instead of a Tarmogoyf on turn 2 because they fear a Daze is the definition of lost tempo. It doesn't matter if you think Kird Ape is still an effective play, because holding back a Tarmogoyf and wasting your resource (one mana) for a turn is lost tempo for your opponent at its finest.
Some people play the game where they make a blanket statement like 'I will always crack a fetch the second I play it if my opponent has no blue open', and this mindset will cause you to lose many games and overlook possible plays. This reaches for beyond our debate. Every situation in magic is different, and there is always room for exploring options. Never make blanket statements like this!
Has anyone tried a couple Horizon Canopy in the mono-white version of this deck? Does the card draw out-weigh the damage and nonbasic? I would say probably not since no one seems to be playing it... Just thought I'd ask though.
EDIT: Also could someone give me a link to Finn's Bag o' Tricks deck? I can't seem to find it, and I'd like to toy around with some blue cards.
No offense, but cracking a Fetch while you know your opponent has a Blue open and is indeed playing Blue is not the wisest idea, so I don't know why you would do that in the first place.
Besides people, it's much easier to try and bluff playing ANT with turn 1 Delta into basic Swamp.
I reread my post, and I never said anything about cracking a fetch when your opponent has a blue open... Plus you're going to be much better off bluffing ANT by cracking a Polluted Delta for a swamp than by cracking a Marsh Flats for a swamp.
If you would like to respond, respond to these statements: "If any deck plays a 1-mana spell on turn 2 because they think you have Daze, they are losing tempo. They are leaving one of their resources unused which could have been used otherwise, which is a loss of tempo by definition." If you agree with that, then the point is settled. I don't really think there is any way to disagree with it. You said earlier that people will occassionally play a 1-mana spell on turn 2 if they think you have a Daze.
And also:
"So if you had the choice, you would not use Polluted Delta? What fetch would you choose instead and why?"
This discussion isn't about when to crack a fetch vs. blue decks. It's about Polluted Delta having a slight strategic advantage over other fetches. I don't really have any other points, so I will leave it be after this. I just think that if you wanted to argue against Polluted Delta, you should have a reason why something else is better.
Yes, but the only decks in the format that would jump into a Daze like that are Burn, Zoo and MAYBE Affinity.
The rest of the decks have either back up (their own Daze) or can still play a 1 CC card on turn 2 w/o losing Tempo. And we lose pretty hard to burn and Zoo.
So it's still for naught.
If any deck plays a 1-mana spell on turn 2 because they think you have Daze, they are losing tempo. They are leaving one of their resources unused which could have been used otherwise, which is a loss of tempo by definition.
So if you had the choice you would not use Polluted Delta? What fetch would you choose instead and why?
And as a sidenote, if you have a Polluted Delta and you wanted to Daze with a blue deck here's what you would do: crack the fetch, get a blue land, **tap for a blue mana**, then return the blue land to your hand and play Daze. This is a way to protect your Daze from your opponent's Daze. So even if you were correct in saying that every deck besides Zoo, Burn, and Affinity had Daze to back up their turn 2 play, it wouldn't even matter in the situation that we are discussing.
Actually, on the draw, it is stastically better to keep a Fetchland un-cracked against an opponent garaunteed not playing Blue because that way you can keep both Wasteland, Rishadon Port and Sinkhole at bay until your turn to garauntee yourself 2 mana on turn 2.
It has nothing to with Daze. Especially because more than likely, they will run out a 1 cost threat, seeing as they have 2 mana on their turn while your "bluffing" Daze.
Your points are valid, but in 100 games your opponent ever plays a 1-mana spell on turn 2 instead of a 2-mana spell because you have a Polluted Delta open, Polluted Delta has done its job. Your opponent slightly loses tempo because of your card choice. Is there any reason to play a different black fetch over Polluted Delta? No. I am just a perfectionist, and I am trying to make an argument concerning the card choice of an otherwise overlooked part of the deck. Deck discussion gets stale after a while, and it is interesting to discuss these points. Would I go out of my way to buy Polluted Deltas just for the chance of bluffing that I play blue? Definitely not. But since I already have them, I think it is simply the better card choice.
So why are you keeping a hand with no turn one plays against an unknown opponent? That kind of hand should be mulligan-ed most of the time.
There are plenty of good hands in Eva Green that have no turn 1 play. Are you saying that if you don't have a Dark Ritual or Thoughtseize/Duress you should mull?
These are are some of the strongest openings this deck can muster, other then a turn one Tombstalker but that is just wasteful and probably even isn't near as good, and all of them significantly redefine your opponent's options. Thoughtseize in particular is golden here since it gives you invaluable information on what the opponent is playing, what disruption is relevant in the early game, what you need to play around and on top of all that takes out the biggest threat from their opening hand.
"Bluffing" a Daze is very bad in comparison since your bluff will always be called in just about any matchup.
For instance, while you're bluffing a Daze, Merfolk will simply play AEther Vial on the draw (possibly with Force of Will or Daze backup) and make half of your disruption strategy pointless.
Furthermore, it might not be as relevant as it used to be, but do you seriously think you can allow the opponent to play a turn one Goblin Lackey unopposed?
To sum this thing up, what it comes down to is that when you are trying to be smart and bluff a spell you don't play in your deck you are giving away all the advantages of going first in this format for no real compensation and that is not smart at all.
No, you are missing the point entirely. I completely agree that you should never 'bluff a Daze' if you have any kind of turn 1 play with this deck. That would be extremely dumb, and no one in their right mind could argue that point. All I'm saying is that an uncracked Polluted Delta when you don't have a turn 1 play will occassionally make your opponent waste their turn trying to play around a Daze that doesn't exist. My argument is solely for the fact that Polluted Delta is an automatic 4-of and the best fetch to use in the deck when you have no non-swamp basics. Or even if you play a single Forest, you should be playing 4 Verdant Catacombs and 4 Polluted Delta as your fetch base.
So I don't know why people brought up bluffing Daze. It's just a mistake to do so.
If you are on the draw and they open with Volcanic Island, you definitely do not crack the fetch during your turn if you don't have a turn 1 play. You would only do it in repsonse to an EOT Brainstorm. So yes, the occassion will arise when you can bluff a Daze. This makes Polluted Delta a more useful fetchland when you don't have to worry about basics other than swamps. And maybe you can bluff a Bolt making them not play Dark Confidant turn 2... Yes this one is a stretch, but if you are not playing basics then I would rather not reveal the colors of my deck and make the best of my fetchland choice. It is an extreme and slightly ridiculous form of mental magic, but it makes those fetches slightly more desirable in my opinion.
Bluffing a Daze is something that never occurred to me...never would have popped into my mind.
However, I don't think Zoo runs Mire anymore now that the optimal fetches exist. I guess you could make them think you're running Goblins and have no Lackey or Vial....but I would think/hope a normal Goblin player might throw that hand back unless their T2 and T3 will be amazing.
Yeah I agree, I was mostly thinking about bluffing a Bolt. I don't think most people immediately think "Eva Green" when they see a Bloodstained Mire. But my point about the Polluted Delta is actually substantial in some situations.
Can this deck be competitive at large events? I have a friend who has built this deck and wishes to take it to a Legacy 5k, but we have never seen it post results, and it wasn't even mentioned in the Top 50 Legacy decks article recently written on StarCityGames. Just wondering if anyone has any insight on the lack of popularity at large events, because it's extremely fun to play and fares well against many of the popular decks. Thanks!
bad news, i got raped by iona dredge and u/b reanimator. damn they're fast. nothing i can really do about a turn2 iona nameing black. reanimator is new to our shop, but i think he likes it so i have to prepare... i think i want to switch back to leylines.
what does everyone think? 1-2 ichorid decks, reanimator, loam,... for the past several weeks i've been packing 3 extirpate, 2 ravenous trap. traps are useless against reanimator, so maybe 4 leylines, 2-3 extirpate, and swap the deeds for plague (will help vs zombie tokens and merfs, but not great vs zoo). thoughts?
and here's the good news....
I TRADED FOR MY FIRST TWO PERSECUTORS TONIGHT! now i just have to find me some foil innocent bloods.
are you one of the white splashing members who got railroaded off this thread a few months back? if so, i'm wondering how many white sources you run just for vindicate? and do you use any white board cards? like gaddox teeg (who was an allstar tonight).
Sorry I haven't responded to this sooner. My manabase is:
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
I really, really don't like non-black basics because of my 4 Hymn, 4 Sinkhole, 3 Shade, and 2 Gatekeeper. This manabase works quite nicely for me.
*Note that I'm playing 4 Polluted Delta because it's nice to bluff a Daze if you don't have a turn 1 play. And on a lesser note, Bloodstained Mire can bluff that you're playing zoo. I would rather play these fetches than diversifying in 2's, because I don't think I will EVER encounter someone needling or Extirpating a fetch. Maybe I'm just overthinking a tiny aspect of my deck... haha I don't know.
A note about Doran:
Even if you are running white, I would never run Doran in this deck. I splash white for Vindicate, but Doran is way too color-intensive, and I am probably able to get B/W/G on turn 3 less than 50% of the time. Opponent's Wastelands make it even more difficult.
The fact that you said 'a lot of the field' and not 'all of the field' proves my point exactly. And Playing a single Kird Ape instead of a Tarmogoyf on turn 2 because they fear a Daze is the definition of lost tempo. It doesn't matter if you think Kird Ape is still an effective play, because holding back a Tarmogoyf and wasting your resource (one mana) for a turn is lost tempo for your opponent at its finest.
Some people play the game where they make a blanket statement like 'I will always crack a fetch the second I play it if my opponent has no blue open', and this mindset will cause you to lose many games and overlook possible plays. This reaches for beyond our debate. Every situation in magic is different, and there is always room for exploring options. Never make blanket statements like this!
You need card tags in future posts. Read the Forum Guidelines. -Carsten
EDIT: Also could someone give me a link to Finn's Bag o' Tricks deck? I can't seem to find it, and I'd like to toy around with some blue cards.
I reread my post, and I never said anything about cracking a fetch when your opponent has a blue open... Plus you're going to be much better off bluffing ANT by cracking a Polluted Delta for a swamp than by cracking a Marsh Flats for a swamp.
If you would like to respond, respond to these statements: "If any deck plays a 1-mana spell on turn 2 because they think you have Daze, they are losing tempo. They are leaving one of their resources unused which could have been used otherwise, which is a loss of tempo by definition." If you agree with that, then the point is settled. I don't really think there is any way to disagree with it. You said earlier that people will occassionally play a 1-mana spell on turn 2 if they think you have a Daze.
And also:
"So if you had the choice, you would not use Polluted Delta? What fetch would you choose instead and why?"
This discussion isn't about when to crack a fetch vs. blue decks. It's about Polluted Delta having a slight strategic advantage over other fetches. I don't really have any other points, so I will leave it be after this. I just think that if you wanted to argue against Polluted Delta, you should have a reason why something else is better.
If any deck plays a 1-mana spell on turn 2 because they think you have Daze, they are losing tempo. They are leaving one of their resources unused which could have been used otherwise, which is a loss of tempo by definition.
So if you had the choice you would not use Polluted Delta? What fetch would you choose instead and why?
And as a sidenote, if you have a Polluted Delta and you wanted to Daze with a blue deck here's what you would do: crack the fetch, get a blue land, **tap for a blue mana**, then return the blue land to your hand and play Daze. This is a way to protect your Daze from your opponent's Daze. So even if you were correct in saying that every deck besides Zoo, Burn, and Affinity had Daze to back up their turn 2 play, it wouldn't even matter in the situation that we are discussing.
Your points are valid, but in 100 games your opponent ever plays a 1-mana spell on turn 2 instead of a 2-mana spell because you have a Polluted Delta open, Polluted Delta has done its job. Your opponent slightly loses tempo because of your card choice. Is there any reason to play a different black fetch over Polluted Delta? No. I am just a perfectionist, and I am trying to make an argument concerning the card choice of an otherwise overlooked part of the deck. Deck discussion gets stale after a while, and it is interesting to discuss these points. Would I go out of my way to buy Polluted Deltas just for the chance of bluffing that I play blue? Definitely not. But since I already have them, I think it is simply the better card choice.
There are plenty of good hands in Eva Green that have no turn 1 play. Are you saying that if you don't have a Dark Ritual or Thoughtseize/Duress you should mull?
No, you are missing the point entirely. I completely agree that you should never 'bluff a Daze' if you have any kind of turn 1 play with this deck. That would be extremely dumb, and no one in their right mind could argue that point. All I'm saying is that an uncracked Polluted Delta when you don't have a turn 1 play will occassionally make your opponent waste their turn trying to play around a Daze that doesn't exist. My argument is solely for the fact that Polluted Delta is an automatic 4-of and the best fetch to use in the deck when you have no non-swamp basics. Or even if you play a single Forest, you should be playing 4 Verdant Catacombs and 4 Polluted Delta as your fetch base.
If you are on the draw and they open with Volcanic Island, you definitely do not crack the fetch during your turn if you don't have a turn 1 play. You would only do it in repsonse to an EOT Brainstorm. So yes, the occassion will arise when you can bluff a Daze. This makes Polluted Delta a more useful fetchland when you don't have to worry about basics other than swamps. And maybe you can bluff a Bolt making them not play Dark Confidant turn 2... Yes this one is a stretch, but if you are not playing basics then I would rather not reveal the colors of my deck and make the best of my fetchland choice. It is an extreme and slightly ridiculous form of mental magic, but it makes those fetches slightly more desirable in my opinion.
Yeah I agree, I was mostly thinking about bluffing a Bolt. I don't think most people immediately think "Eva Green" when they see a Bloodstained Mire. But my point about the Polluted Delta is actually substantial in some situations.
Sorry I haven't responded to this sooner. My manabase is:
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
I really, really don't like non-black basics because of my 4 Hymn, 4 Sinkhole, 3 Shade, and 2 Gatekeeper. This manabase works quite nicely for me.
*Note that I'm playing 4 Polluted Delta because it's nice to bluff a Daze if you don't have a turn 1 play. And on a lesser note, Bloodstained Mire can bluff that you're playing zoo. I would rather play these fetches than diversifying in 2's, because I don't think I will EVER encounter someone needling or Extirpating a fetch. Maybe I'm just overthinking a tiny aspect of my deck... haha I don't know.
Even if you are running white, I would never run Doran in this deck. I splash white for Vindicate, but Doran is way too color-intensive, and I am probably able to get B/W/G on turn 3 less than 50% of the time. Opponent's Wastelands make it even more difficult.