On one hand you’re describing drafters who appear to be reactive to draft signals which is a good thing. On the other hand it also sounds like they’re using overly simplified archetype heuristics to build their decks which is understandably annoying and boring for the Cube experience.
I think this is partially a result of mainstreaming Cube content over the past couple years. “LSV style” Cubing seems to involve simplified archetype lanes that slot players at the table into one of only a handful of specifically supported archetypes. This is at least how the popular online content on his Cube reads, and I also hear several of the popular pros and streamers talking about Cube in this way.
I would make sure (1) you have enough fixing to support creative splashes. (2) You have a variety of aggro, control, and combo elements across every color. And I’m not a hardliner on “green aggro means Jungle Lion” - your green aggressive deck can be a midrange deck that attacks a lot or green as a secondary aggro color. (3) Beat the other players in your Cube when you draft with them. Locking into overly narrow archetypes is not going to beat the player who thinks outside the box to build a creatively powerful deck. At some point the stock UW Control player will realize black aggro-combo Reanimator hybrid deck is good when they keep losing to recursive 1-drops into Bloodghast and Bitterblossom.
Also the more I think about the archetypes you described the more I think part of the problem is some of the archetypes you have chosen to support lend themselves to these types of draft behaviors. I dislike Storm in Cube for exactly the reason you’ve described here. It’s the ultimate “drafting on rails” archetype, as you put it. Persist combo is a close second for having cards that don’t overlap well with other decks and will always get fed the late pick “otherwise unplayables” if the drafter correctly identified no one else is on that deck. It sounds like you like that deck for its color diversity, but in my opinion it’s pretty easy to get a lot of the cards that work well in that deck as late picks that no one else is going to play in any other archetype. Aristocrats is perhaps third with certainty more cards that are generically good but still some synergy cards that are so narrow and weak outside the archetype that the drafter can correctly wait to be fed those cards on the wheel. I do not support any of those archetypes even if I have some “sacrifice synergies” for example - in my Cube those effects are in smaller packages with broader archetype appeal, and you’ll never see something like Blasting Station in my Cube. To be clear I love supporting combo, but mostly combos that work well in a variety of color combinations as “packages” within diverse shells. Take Vault / Key for example. That an exciting combo that benefits from several artifact synergies, but the Vault / Key deck is going to look more diverse than the Storm deck.
While I haven't played with this card in cube, I have played against it in Modern a decent amount, and I feel like this card is probably a fine cube card but not as good as it is in constructed certainly.
It has almost the same mana cost as Dig Through Time, but I think I'd rather have Dig in cube.
In modern, this card is good (but not dominant) because curves are so low to the ground that this dodges most of the spot removal - modern spot removal is mostly Lightning Bolt, Unholy Heat and Fatal Push nowadays. In cube, I don't think this dodges nearly as high a percentage of the spot removal as in modern contructed, plus it's a bit harder to build a deck with ton of cheap cantrips.]
I do think this is significantly better than Tombstalker though, for sure. I think the thread is a bit too low on Murktide, but I think it's probably a 540+ or 450+ card, don't think I would play it at 360.
Great feedback, thanks! I have a powered 720, and I agree that I would probably not try it at smaller sizes. There’s also more delve real estate to play around with at 720 when you can assume you’ll see half the total number of delve cards in a draft. To me it’s a legitimate consideration to keep a close eye on delve density.
Do people have the same thoughts on Murktide Regent - generally negative? Delve cards have been performing well for us recently, and over the weekend people suggested that this card should be in the Cube.
We got enough draw spells (especially draw 7s) in cube - This isn't a very exciting build around IMO.
While I agree that Standstill may ultimately not work out, I don’t view it as a “build around” necessarily if it has nice synergies with other cards that are already Cube-able. In my opinion a drafter likely isn’t going to say “oh sick, a Standstill, I’m now going to draft a shell entirely around this.” The hope is that the Standstill causes the drafter to weigh cards of similar power levels a bit differently considering the Standstill synergy and other synergies in their deck. They’re not going to immediately slam the first Timeless Dragon they see over a powerful pick, for example, but it might tip the scales in favor of Timeless Dragon over something similar but less synergistic like a Wrath or a Baneslayer.
This topic is somewhat relevant to the “drafting on rails” thread, as I think synergy packages that fit into pre-existing macro archetypes help tremendously with deck diversity.
Had a blast Cubing yesterday with a group of friends. We did a combination of team drafts with 12 players (3x3x3x3 across 2 6-person draft pods) and the traditional 8-person drafts. We played my Cube and one draft of another person’s Cube that was similar to the MTGO and LSV Cube lists.
Random observations from the weekend that I felt were interesting:
-Dust Bowl was a last pick and then proceeded to win a draft for the player who drafted it in a deck that did not have any Crucible effects or major synergies.
-Hive of the Eye Tyrant graveyard ability was relevant.
-Omnath, Locus of Creation was cast smoothly on curve and had a major impact on the game in a 4-color deck.
-Someone P1P1’ed Oko over Jace TMS, and I heard players chatting that it’s not a particularly difficult decision.
-Time Vault / Key decks appeared in every draft, and the combo was activated many times. Time Vault has become respected as a high pick.
-Fallen Shinobi was the centerpiece of a draft winning deck and blew out opponents multiple times with massive hits.
-Witherbloom Command was consistently a blowout in the other person’s powered Cube, and I promptly added one to mine when the day was over.
-Winota was a centerpiece of a very good Boros aggro deck, and it won every time it was played in one draft.
-A Reanimator deck 3-0’ed one of the drafts, and the archetype seemed much better with the new Modern Horizons 2 cards.
-No one respected Brainstorm because of disparaging comments from Cube podcasts and pros who play Cube, so I proceeded to pick it late as “Shuffle-cestral” with it almost every time I cast it. I think the bias against Brainstorm in Cube has swung way too far to the negative.
-One control deck played both of the white foretell cards, and it was consistently relevant that the opponent did not know which one was foretold. A game was won from the opponent guessing wrong.
-Everyone loves Elspeth Conquers Death for some reason. It was a last second addition to my list, and I guess it’s no longer on the chopping block.
-Someone Restoration Angel’ed an evoked Fury.
-Kaldra Compleat was a powerful bomb in a ramp deck. I underestimated it.
-The group continues to enjoy my Cube’s high density of fixing non-basics and consistently utilizes them to play interesting splashes. I noticed a considerable difference in deck diversity in the other person’s powered Cube (smaller and “more stock” list close to MTGO Vintage).
We haven’t run this for maybe 8 years, but our group seems to build one deck per draft that would work well with Standstill. Much of this has to do with the resurgence blue tempo plus a variety of powerful manlands. A fringe benefit is delirium enabler…
Good write up as usual. Agreed that people are generally sleeping on the manlands. I was disappointed when Zendikar Rising didn't have manlands, but these make up for it.
I think they're amazing but the problem is I just do not have any room for these cards.
I've recently tried a new green package and cut Cultivate and Kodama's Reach and realized I lacked the land ramp for cards like Palinchron/ Field of the Dead to be effective ..
Are you running the spell lands like Call of Emeria? In my opinion these manlands are going to be higher impact than several of the spell lands that I see in most cubes. Shatterskull Smashing feels like a staple to us, but other than that one I think some of the spell flip lands are lower impact.
Why is everyone (literally, everyone) comparing this to Grafted Wargear when, stripping it down for a sec, Empyrial Plate seems like a far more accurate comparison in its function and typical play patterns. I don't think that's a very cubeable card but maybe I am wrong.
There's a massive difference between the equip costs. I'm curious how the play pattern of Hand of Vecna is more similar to an equipment that costs 2 to play and 2 to equip than one that costs 3 to play and 0 to equip. I'm not sure if Hand of Vecna will ultimately make the cut, but its spot on the curve is much better than Empyrial Plate.
This card has some similarities with Grafted Wargear. While I don't think this is better than Wargear because of potential floor and significant life payment for equipping on turn 3, it seems like a large Cube with Wargear could also want this.
I’m going to test this. I recently added Delver of Secrets after not having it for 10 years, and it has been doing well which is a good indicator for this card. A lot of great support for blue tempo/aggressive decks has been printed over the past couple years. I like the mention of Rakdos Spells in the OP which is also an archetype we’ve had some success with.
I think this is partially a result of mainstreaming Cube content over the past couple years. “LSV style” Cubing seems to involve simplified archetype lanes that slot players at the table into one of only a handful of specifically supported archetypes. This is at least how the popular online content on his Cube reads, and I also hear several of the popular pros and streamers talking about Cube in this way.
I would make sure (1) you have enough fixing to support creative splashes. (2) You have a variety of aggro, control, and combo elements across every color. And I’m not a hardliner on “green aggro means Jungle Lion” - your green aggressive deck can be a midrange deck that attacks a lot or green as a secondary aggro color. (3) Beat the other players in your Cube when you draft with them. Locking into overly narrow archetypes is not going to beat the player who thinks outside the box to build a creatively powerful deck. At some point the stock UW Control player will realize black aggro-combo Reanimator hybrid deck is good when they keep losing to recursive 1-drops into Bloodghast and Bitterblossom.
Also the more I think about the archetypes you described the more I think part of the problem is some of the archetypes you have chosen to support lend themselves to these types of draft behaviors. I dislike Storm in Cube for exactly the reason you’ve described here. It’s the ultimate “drafting on rails” archetype, as you put it. Persist combo is a close second for having cards that don’t overlap well with other decks and will always get fed the late pick “otherwise unplayables” if the drafter correctly identified no one else is on that deck. It sounds like you like that deck for its color diversity, but in my opinion it’s pretty easy to get a lot of the cards that work well in that deck as late picks that no one else is going to play in any other archetype. Aristocrats is perhaps third with certainty more cards that are generically good but still some synergy cards that are so narrow and weak outside the archetype that the drafter can correctly wait to be fed those cards on the wheel. I do not support any of those archetypes even if I have some “sacrifice synergies” for example - in my Cube those effects are in smaller packages with broader archetype appeal, and you’ll never see something like Blasting Station in my Cube. To be clear I love supporting combo, but mostly combos that work well in a variety of color combinations as “packages” within diverse shells. Take Vault / Key for example. That an exciting combo that benefits from several artifact synergies, but the Vault / Key deck is going to look more diverse than the Storm deck.
Great feedback, thanks! I have a powered 720, and I agree that I would probably not try it at smaller sizes. There’s also more delve real estate to play around with at 720 when you can assume you’ll see half the total number of delve cards in a draft. To me it’s a legitimate consideration to keep a close eye on delve density.
While I agree that Standstill may ultimately not work out, I don’t view it as a “build around” necessarily if it has nice synergies with other cards that are already Cube-able. In my opinion a drafter likely isn’t going to say “oh sick, a Standstill, I’m now going to draft a shell entirely around this.” The hope is that the Standstill causes the drafter to weigh cards of similar power levels a bit differently considering the Standstill synergy and other synergies in their deck. They’re not going to immediately slam the first Timeless Dragon they see over a powerful pick, for example, but it might tip the scales in favor of Timeless Dragon over something similar but less synergistic like a Wrath or a Baneslayer.
This topic is somewhat relevant to the “drafting on rails” thread, as I think synergy packages that fit into pre-existing macro archetypes help tremendously with deck diversity.
Random observations from the weekend that I felt were interesting:
-Dust Bowl was a last pick and then proceeded to win a draft for the player who drafted it in a deck that did not have any Crucible effects or major synergies.
-Hive of the Eye Tyrant graveyard ability was relevant.
-Omnath, Locus of Creation was cast smoothly on curve and had a major impact on the game in a 4-color deck.
-Someone P1P1’ed Oko over Jace TMS, and I heard players chatting that it’s not a particularly difficult decision.
-Time Vault / Key decks appeared in every draft, and the combo was activated many times. Time Vault has become respected as a high pick.
-Fallen Shinobi was the centerpiece of a draft winning deck and blew out opponents multiple times with massive hits.
-Witherbloom Command was consistently a blowout in the other person’s powered Cube, and I promptly added one to mine when the day was over.
-Winota was a centerpiece of a very good Boros aggro deck, and it won every time it was played in one draft.
-A Reanimator deck 3-0’ed one of the drafts, and the archetype seemed much better with the new Modern Horizons 2 cards.
-No one respected Brainstorm because of disparaging comments from Cube podcasts and pros who play Cube, so I proceeded to pick it late as “Shuffle-cestral” with it almost every time I cast it. I think the bias against Brainstorm in Cube has swung way too far to the negative.
-One control deck played both of the white foretell cards, and it was consistently relevant that the opponent did not know which one was foretold. A game was won from the opponent guessing wrong.
-Everyone loves Elspeth Conquers Death for some reason. It was a last second addition to my list, and I guess it’s no longer on the chopping block.
-Someone Restoration Angel’ed an evoked Fury.
-Kaldra Compleat was a powerful bomb in a ramp deck. I underestimated it.
-The group continues to enjoy my Cube’s high density of fixing non-basics and consistently utilizes them to play interesting splashes. I noticed a considerable difference in deck diversity in the other person’s powered Cube (smaller and “more stock” list close to MTGO Vintage).
Thinking about trying it out.
Are you running the spell lands like Call of Emeria? In my opinion these manlands are going to be higher impact than several of the spell lands that I see in most cubes. Shatterskull Smashing feels like a staple to us, but other than that one I think some of the spell flip lands are lower impact.
This article is going to make me try the white manland. I was sold on the Jund lands, and the explanation for the white one makes sense.
There's a massive difference between the equip costs. I'm curious how the play pattern of Hand of Vecna is more similar to an equipment that costs 2 to play and 2 to equip than one that costs 3 to play and 0 to equip. I'm not sure if Hand of Vecna will ultimately make the cut, but its spot on the curve is much better than Empyrial Plate.
This card has some similarities with Grafted Wargear. While I don't think this is better than Wargear because of potential floor and significant life payment for equipping on turn 3, it seems like a large Cube with Wargear could also want this.
Thoughts?
Portable Hole
Ebondeath Dracolith
Hand of Vecna
Red Manland
I’m considering the four other manlands and leaning toward adding green and black but not adding blue and white.