So I tried this deck because I thought it'd be fun, and a challenge, but for the life of me I couldn't get the lack of lands to work. Especially post-board, where the combo gets trickier if you're up against a faster deck. Adding lands is always good - this deck doesn't want lands though.
That was when it hit me. We already have a Gifts Ungiven for lands!
It doesn't have the velocity of some of these other cool lists, but it's felt durable in some of my matches. A single Realms will burn through your library pretty quick after the rampant growth effects, especially if you manage to hit mostly fetches. The looting effects are counterintuitive: other than Loam, you're not really pitching for value but it's kind of like Snapcaster in a delve deck - the synergy works in spite of the mechanics, mainly because you end up with various dead cards at some point (Chancellor, extra Blood Moons, a growth without a target, etc).
It's obviously not perfect, but I didn't like having a sideboard I barely had access to, and I like the feel of being able to do multiple things early (either early Reveler beatdown, the soft lock of blood moon, or just charbelcher) without sacrificing the potency.
Huanted dead single handedly rocks the infect matchup. Darkblast too. I run a single in my main of both just for that. I side in an axe, a grudge, 2 decays, and a EE, and I start really feel like being favored with out stressing my deck so much I lose cards for other matchups. Something I noticed alot of people DONT do early is actually cast Stinkweeds. There are plenty of times I dont just go "6 dredge is the most! Dredge troll" and I go "5 is still good, dredge stinkweed, cast stinkweed. Come attack."
Sometimes its about the play, not the cards. Stinkweed happens to be STUPIDLY good stopping the single threat from coming through. Troll happens to be the answer to late game angers and wraiths. I often early game dredge my loam, simply so I have 8 cards in hand to discard a troll. You need to know how to work the dredge cards for more than just mill at times.
Yep. Good points on both counts. Haunted Dead is so good in tricky creature matchups that I think it's best to hedge against them.
Against Suicide Zoo which I inexplicably won, Game 2 went long because he couldn't find his Temur Battle Rages while I was just hardcasting Stinkweeds.They don't have much removal (same goes for Infect and Bogles)) pre or postboard so it's always a good idea to hardcast the Stink.
Nim Devourer is awful. You're better off adopting the new Scrapheap Scrounger. Instant speed is better than an upkeep/sacrifice cost, even if it's in service of a Bridge trigger.
As a side note, I can't ever see myself cutting the singleton Haunted Dead, and I'm not sure why others are so eager to get rid of it. Sure it has a counter synergy with Conflagrate, but so does Snapcaster/Delve, and they're still good together. To me, the main thing is that Haunted Dead is better in Dredge's toughest matchups (Infect, Suicide Zoo, et cetera) than Conflagrate. It'd be one thing if it took away from the deck's raw power, but it doesn't. I'd never go up to two, but I really believe in the power of the miser.
Good point. The only thing I'd contend with is that turn 1 is still priority number one. The slots are so tight, I still think having one Shriekhorn for that first turn setup is more critical than going all-in on turn two. But there's no doubt about its power. My plan is to test with -2 Tormenting Voice -1 Shriekhorn and +3 CR.
Went 4-0 (1 Bye though) last night. My list is pretty typical, but as I've mentioned before, I really like Raven's Crime over Lightning Axe. Unlike Axe, it's a turn one discard outlet at ANY time, and can be useful against combo decks that aren't as quick as usual.
1-0
Stood around pretending to be interesting in comic books (loved the trading cards as a kid, and enjoy the movies well enough, but all the unsealed comics just looked dull).
2-0 (U/B Mill)
This matchup never even crossed my mind. And my mind was crossed actually playing against it. The gameplan seems obvious enough: you're dredge, so let them dredge for you. The tricky part is your manabase. I needed that second red for a Conflagrate kill that nearly cost me the first game. I had two cards left in my library, and luckily had my Amalgams go to work. Typically you'll get your key mana pieces milled since you have so little so make sure you have double red. My manabase sucks because I have yet to pick up those three Copperline Gorges.
3-0 (Suicide Zoo)
This series actually took 45 minutes.
Game 1: He took the most disruptive hand a Suicide Zoo deck can have, and it cost him when he had to take out a Haunted Dead from his Thoughtseize. Side out: 2 Shriekhorns, 1 Grave Troll, 1 Dakmor, 2 Conflagrate. Side in: 1 Gnaw to the Bone, 2 Abrupt Decays, 1 Beast Within, 2 Duress.
Game 2: I was dredging pretty slow, but was lucky enough to stem the tide with Narcos coming out. Narco and Haunted Dead are the best cards against Suicide Zoo because they're the only creatures that can immediately block. Conflag isn't very good except to take it to their head right away, making their fetch/shock suicidal tendencies become more complicated. I actually had him dead at one point but he top decked the Battle Rage.
Game 3: Even though this game ended in turn 4, this was the longest game. I hit a solid dredge right away. By turn 3 I had 2 Bloodghasts, an Amalgam, Haunted Dead, and the Spirit token out at 16 life. He had Swiftspear, Lynx, and Death Shadow (recently played) at 3 life.
I actually thought about not swinging on my turn except with Bloodghasts and an Amalgam. I didn't know if he brought in removal or what. I've never actually played the matchup. With so much life, I figured I had another turn. Especially with Gnaw to the Bone in the yard (it would only net me 6 life with the current creatures in the GY though). I kept thinking and thinking. Having played Nivmagus, knowing the strategy pre and post board, I swung with everyone and took it down. He had a Become Immense and a Battle Rage in hand (he couldn't fetch a shock the turn before with the blockers I had up). So if I had been more conservative, I would have lost.
I probably overthought my options, but was obviously happy with the outcome given how wretched I know the matchup is. If he hadn't played his Death Shadow, I probably would have just swung with a few and lost on the crack back. When he played the Death Shadow, the clock didn't just tick. It exploded. So yea. The matchup was way more complicated than I thought, but just as dangerous as expected.
4-0 (Infect)
Not much to report except that I feel like the inclusion of Raven's Crime helped overall. Not to hit opponents, but to discard when I had no other outlet on turn one.
Overall: I'll never stop grinding with this deck. It's just too much damn fun. I got lucky not getting hit with graveyard hate (people brought it in, but never saw it). My sideboard is obviously questionable, but I just don't want to devote that many slots to the mirror.
One last note: Cethartic Reunion is obviously replacing Tormenting Voice, but I don't know that it's an auto-include 4-of. One of the things I realized while tinkering with all kinds of weird big draw spells like Goblin Lore, Burning Inquiry, and whatnot is that dredging more can sometimes just make you more vulnerable. Especially a two mana spell that's suddenly prone to counter magic, which is traditionally Dredge's easiest obstacle to overcome. Just my thoughts.
The problem I'm having with Collective Brutality is that it adds to Haunted Dead's counter interaction with Conflagrate. If you run 3 Conflags, and at least 3 Loams (which I'm doing and haven't looked back), it's a bit awkward. Especially if you're in a matchup where you need those early Conflagrates to kill needed targets.
I'm starting to think that I might want Raven's Crime in place of the Brutality, slotting an Urborg into the manabase to ensure maximum velocity. Not only does it not take away from the deck, but it's even good in the mirror when you want to reduce that Conflagrate. Plus it helps deal with other combo decks that feel "safe" now that everyone is focusing on hating the graveyard. Just a few thoughts.
I didn't get a chance to go to FNM, but I was playtesting with my buddies against their archetypes: Jund, Affinity, Jeskai, Grixis, Corbin's planeswalker build (which is aggressively annoying), and R/G Tron.
One of the cards I started testing was Purphoros, God of the Forge. I'm a big fan of Rally, but like most finishers in Dredge, it suffers the same fate as most Dredge finishers: they're dead to hate or sided out to answer hate. Purphoros, however, wasn't. I didn't beat a turn 0 Leyline against Jund, but I nearly made it, using draws to hit land drops, harcasting Purphoros, and having Neonates, Narcos become Bob and Liliana killers (Haunted Dead was a beating with Purphoros in another game I played). I tried one mainboard with an Unburial Rites, but didn't like it much. However, I'm thinking of mainboarding one Abrupt Decay so that I can slot two Purphoros' in the side.
Dredge is such a proactive deck, I hate sideboarding in reactive cards despite the fact that you have to. Anybody tested this? Or just general thoughts?
Basically agree on the above. Can't be too scared about hate. I think it is still a interesting discussion with EE vs abrupt decay vs ratchet bomb. All has its pro / cons.
I played EE because of the splash damage for merfolk and suicide zoo which I consider bad match ups
I ended up cutting it already for abrupt decay. Its all the hate aside leyline. WHich I do expect to see in high numbers, but decline as soon as people realize, they are shooting themselves in the foot and can run other things that wont force 4 sideboard slot and mull for.
So we shouldn't worry about Leyline?
He's saying there's no reason plan against a card you can't beat (well, unless you're Tom Ross). Affinity doesn't need to devote slots to beating Shatterstorm. Dredge shouldn't devote slots to beating Leyline. Decay beats everything you need it to (grafdigger, relic, rest in peace) and then some (ooze). The additional versatility in taking down creatures that can potentially beat you fair (Goyf, Merfolk lords, Signal Pest) or permanents makes it a tool for everything you need.
Someone with more experience answer me this please. If you have gargadon and faithless looting in your opener, what do you play first? What's the correct approach to sequencing your turns with dredging and sacrificing to gargadon?
We're dredgers. So let's get dredging. The only time you want to play Gargodon first is if you're against an opponent with a creature on board and removal in hand (so usually when you're on the draw with a slow or even potentially slow hand). That way you can always "protect" your Bridges in response to shenanigans. The other scenario where you want Gargadon over a draw/mill card is if you have a Dakmor in hand. Use the red mana for the Gargadon and play your Dakmor so that way you can begin the Dakmor/Bloodghast/Amalgam gravy train loop-de-loop. Other than that there's not much to the deck beyond your usual dredge plays.
First off, I apologize in advance for my posting behavior. Everytime I come into a deck thread, I like suggesting dumb innovations first, and perfecting the traditional lists second.
With that in mind, if we assume that Rally the Peasants is one of Dredge's best weapons, I think we have to use the card that has the best synergy with it: Hedron Crab. I've been testing this build a little bit:
The pro is that the deck has a quick Rally kill. Plus the Surgicals are brutal when directing Shriekhorn or Crab at your opponent so it has great game against combo postboard. The cons are that game 1 there's no interaction, board or otherwise until game 2 and 3. Conflagrate can obviously find room here but I was just looking to build a good Rally version first, and adjust second. Even though CG can clear the board, I think Rally plays a duel role and is just as good in some cases. Both cards have a weird overlap in what they do that I can't quite explain.
Just saying: 4 dredge decks in the top 32 and one at number 1 yet again at the Syracuse Open. You better believe the graveyard hate is coming. Metas are defined quick nowadays, which means adjustments happen even quicker.
As a general tip I'd recommend getting some dice for Amalgams and stick them on top (or on your library) to make a mental note of the end step trigger. I've played Legacy dredge, hipster dredge (as in 'Dredge' before it had Amalgam), and the deck is like driving manual over automatic. You miss triggers and you feel stupid. It just happens. Try to turn triggers into muscle memory with stuff like this.
So ive never reallly managed to get thoughtseize to work for me. I normally love 3 to 5 discards main/side. But it seems explosives and charms generally work better. What do you all think? I wish we had cabal therpy...
As far as bridge gor version. Its just so all in, I was even stumbling when draws were just poor or when they had blockers. When i had the god hands i won and when i didnt i didnt
I still like Duress over Thoughtseize. Everything you need it to hit, it hits, and you never have to worry about the life loss. I don't know if it's just me, but the life loss is usually critical postboard. Decks either bring in sweepers or GY hate to slow you down, and the deck, IMO, gets into attrition battles in these scenarios.
Observations:
-On Life from the Loam versus Bridge from Below. Dredge is kind of unique in that micro-deviations have macro effects. Loam gives the deck a little more consistency, but just a little less velocity. Bridge is ALL velocity. If you want that game 1 to be easier, I think the Bridge version of the way to go.
-Sideboarding...I'm already seeing an increase in GY hate (two people at my LGS play it besides me), so I think it's useful to talk the future. Before Dredge got these new toys I was trying this stupid as hell Demon of Death's Gate version with Call to the Netherworld. Not saying we need these cards, but I could see Demon being good PB for decks trying to beat us with Anger of the Gods. Plus Demon is better for versions that run two Haunted Deads. I haven't tested, but it's just a thought.
-I still feel like Rally the Peasants might be the strongest weapon Dredge has. It's basically our Flame Kin Zealot. It's as good game 1 as it is game 2 and 3 in most scenarios (where as I don't think the same is true of Bridge or Conflagrate). Plus most lists have some combination of Mana Confluence, or Gemstones and can pay for white mana in a bind.
Got 17th and took home some store credit with what sounds like the least optimal build around here. Looks like you guys have a wonderful grasp of the archetype.
My losses were all attrition games that came down to just poor card selection on my part. The manabase hurt him when I had two confluences in one game, and not having green for that sideboarded Gnaw to the Bone was critical on my last matchup. In other words, I need to buy Copperlines ASAP.
The only thing I'll try to add that I think hasn't been mentioned is some combination of Noxious Revival/Mystic Retrieval: I really think these should be tested to optimize SB bullets. I only had 2 Noxious Revivals but they came out huge everytime, either getting back a duress (which I think is better than Thoughtseize in the matchups you want it), milled removal (lightning axe), or making the Looting cheaper when I needed it to be.
Echo the things JWELT said about Collective Brutality: another card that needs a bit more testing, and is possibly something to consider with Mystic Retrieval. The card is just that good, and something I may want over Haunted Dead (which I know is solid).
Did some more testing, If you arent running huanted dead, you got to give it a shot. It just won me the game against a few decks because of its instant speed triggering. It actually let me play defencive against goyfs and snaps because I could just use it to chump all day.
I agree. It's so much better than than the previous blue incarnation, and having an extra creature to trigger Amalgam is huge. I run one though just because it doesn't mix well with the Conflagrate. Here's my list I'll be running on Thursday:
I personally like the single Loam: dredge doesn't need lands except to make a bigger Conflagrate, and you only want one or two Conflagrates IMO: the synergy between the two cards requires more set up than you often have time for. A lot of times I find myself just Conflagrating without Loam just to either clear up the board, or get in enough damage through to pressure with hasty bloodghasts. In my experience, 10 is the magic number: if you have your opponent at ten, that's usually a wrap.
My list is a little too toolboxy (Courser, Glen Elendra, and Huntmaster seem good in specific situations as add as that sounds). I found myself grinding wins like a Jund deck. I was also running one Spell Queller and a Selfless Spirit in the side that came in handy a lot. A lot of things I would change but I feel like Eldritch Evolution is a card that either wants something like Aristocrats, or something bigger like curving into Elesh Norn. I'm not really sure. Either that or the SB needs to be figured out.
Evolution changes the curve, and thus, the rhythm of the deck so this will take a lot of playtesting and patience.
Depends on the Dredge deck. If they Conflagrate your board it's hard to Chord for Ooze and beat their zombie vampire illusion army. But the issue with dredge has always been it's a slower kill than most combo decks. I just try to assemble my combo as quick as possible, which usually works (especially with Eldritch).
It's also why I like 1 Relic of Progenitus in the side. It's good against general tombstone shenanigans, plus it's solid against Snapcaster decks.
That was when it hit me. We already have a Gifts Ungiven for lands!
3x Mountain
3x Forest
1x Stomping Ground
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Steam Vents
1x Blood Crypt
1x Arid Mesa
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
1x Bloodstained Mire
Artifact
4x Goblin Charbelcher
Creature
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Chancellor of the Tangle
4x Bedlam Reveler
1x Grapple with the Past
4x Realms Uncharted
Sorcery
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
3x Faithless Looting
4x Cathartic Reunion
2x Life from the Loam
1x Edge of Autumn
4x Search for Tomorrow
Enchantment
3x Blood Moon
2x Fulminator Mage
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Obstinate Baloth
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Crumble to Dust
1x Pulse of Murasa
3x Autumn's Veil
It doesn't have the velocity of some of these other cool lists, but it's felt durable in some of my matches. A single Realms will burn through your library pretty quick after the rampant growth effects, especially if you manage to hit mostly fetches. The looting effects are counterintuitive: other than Loam, you're not really pitching for value but it's kind of like Snapcaster in a delve deck - the synergy works in spite of the mechanics, mainly because you end up with various dead cards at some point (Chancellor, extra Blood Moons, a growth without a target, etc).
It's obviously not perfect, but I didn't like having a sideboard I barely had access to, and I like the feel of being able to do multiple things early (either early Reveler beatdown, the soft lock of blood moon, or just charbelcher) without sacrificing the potency.
Yep. Good points on both counts. Haunted Dead is so good in tricky creature matchups that I think it's best to hedge against them.
Against Suicide Zoo which I inexplicably won, Game 2 went long because he couldn't find his Temur Battle Rages while I was just hardcasting Stinkweeds.They don't have much removal (same goes for Infect and Bogles)) pre or postboard so it's always a good idea to hardcast the Stink.
As a side note, I can't ever see myself cutting the singleton Haunted Dead, and I'm not sure why others are so eager to get rid of it. Sure it has a counter synergy with Conflagrate, but so does Snapcaster/Delve, and they're still good together. To me, the main thing is that Haunted Dead is better in Dredge's toughest matchups (Infect, Suicide Zoo, et cetera) than Conflagrate. It'd be one thing if it took away from the deck's raw power, but it doesn't. I'd never go up to two, but I really believe in the power of the miser.
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Mana Confluence
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creature
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Haunted Dead
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Shriekhorn
Sorcery
1 Raven's Crime
4 Faithless Looting
2 Tormenting Voice
3 Conflagrate
3 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
1 Lightning Axe
3 Duress
2 Collective Brutality
1 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Beast Within
1-0
Stood around pretending to be interesting in comic books (loved the trading cards as a kid, and enjoy the movies well enough, but all the unsealed comics just looked dull).
2-0 (U/B Mill)
This matchup never even crossed my mind. And my mind was crossed actually playing against it. The gameplan seems obvious enough: you're dredge, so let them dredge for you. The tricky part is your manabase. I needed that second red for a Conflagrate kill that nearly cost me the first game. I had two cards left in my library, and luckily had my Amalgams go to work. Typically you'll get your key mana pieces milled since you have so little so make sure you have double red. My manabase sucks because I have yet to pick up those three Copperline Gorges.
3-0 (Suicide Zoo)
This series actually took 45 minutes.
Game 1: He took the most disruptive hand a Suicide Zoo deck can have, and it cost him when he had to take out a Haunted Dead from his Thoughtseize.
Side out: 2 Shriekhorns, 1 Grave Troll, 1 Dakmor, 2 Conflagrate. Side in: 1 Gnaw to the Bone, 2 Abrupt Decays, 1 Beast Within, 2 Duress.
Game 2: I was dredging pretty slow, but was lucky enough to stem the tide with Narcos coming out. Narco and Haunted Dead are the best cards against Suicide Zoo because they're the only creatures that can immediately block. Conflag isn't very good except to take it to their head right away, making their fetch/shock suicidal tendencies become more complicated. I actually had him dead at one point but he top decked the Battle Rage.
Game 3: Even though this game ended in turn 4, this was the longest game. I hit a solid dredge right away. By turn 3 I had 2 Bloodghasts, an Amalgam, Haunted Dead, and the Spirit token out at 16 life. He had Swiftspear, Lynx, and Death Shadow (recently played) at 3 life.
I actually thought about not swinging on my turn except with Bloodghasts and an Amalgam. I didn't know if he brought in removal or what. I've never actually played the matchup. With so much life, I figured I had another turn. Especially with Gnaw to the Bone in the yard (it would only net me 6 life with the current creatures in the GY though). I kept thinking and thinking. Having played Nivmagus, knowing the strategy pre and post board, I swung with everyone and took it down. He had a Become Immense and a Battle Rage in hand (he couldn't fetch a shock the turn before with the blockers I had up). So if I had been more conservative, I would have lost.
I probably overthought my options, but was obviously happy with the outcome given how wretched I know the matchup is. If he hadn't played his Death Shadow, I probably would have just swung with a few and lost on the crack back. When he played the Death Shadow, the clock didn't just tick. It exploded. So yea. The matchup was way more complicated than I thought, but just as dangerous as expected.
4-0 (Infect)
Not much to report except that I feel like the inclusion of Raven's Crime helped overall. Not to hit opponents, but to discard when I had no other outlet on turn one.
Overall: I'll never stop grinding with this deck. It's just too much damn fun. I got lucky not getting hit with graveyard hate (people brought it in, but never saw it). My sideboard is obviously questionable, but I just don't want to devote that many slots to the mirror.
One last note: Cethartic Reunion is obviously replacing Tormenting Voice, but I don't know that it's an auto-include 4-of. One of the things I realized while tinkering with all kinds of weird big draw spells like Goblin Lore, Burning Inquiry, and whatnot is that dredging more can sometimes just make you more vulnerable. Especially a two mana spell that's suddenly prone to counter magic, which is traditionally Dredge's easiest obstacle to overcome. Just my thoughts.
I'm starting to think that I might want Raven's Crime in place of the Brutality, slotting an Urborg into the manabase to ensure maximum velocity. Not only does it not take away from the deck, but it's even good in the mirror when you want to reduce that Conflagrate. Plus it helps deal with other combo decks that feel "safe" now that everyone is focusing on hating the graveyard. Just a few thoughts.
One of the cards I started testing was Purphoros, God of the Forge. I'm a big fan of Rally, but like most finishers in Dredge, it suffers the same fate as most Dredge finishers: they're dead to hate or sided out to answer hate. Purphoros, however, wasn't. I didn't beat a turn 0 Leyline against Jund, but I nearly made it, using draws to hit land drops, harcasting Purphoros, and having Neonates, Narcos become Bob and Liliana killers (Haunted Dead was a beating with Purphoros in another game I played). I tried one mainboard with an Unburial Rites, but didn't like it much. However, I'm thinking of mainboarding one Abrupt Decay so that I can slot two Purphoros' in the side.
Dredge is such a proactive deck, I hate sideboarding in reactive cards despite the fact that you have to. Anybody tested this? Or just general thoughts?
He's saying there's no reason plan against a card you can't beat (well, unless you're Tom Ross). Affinity doesn't need to devote slots to beating Shatterstorm. Dredge shouldn't devote slots to beating Leyline. Decay beats everything you need it to (grafdigger, relic, rest in peace) and then some (ooze). The additional versatility in taking down creatures that can potentially beat you fair (Goyf, Merfolk lords, Signal Pest) or permanents makes it a tool for everything you need.
We're dredgers. So let's get dredging. The only time you want to play Gargodon first is if you're against an opponent with a creature on board and removal in hand (so usually when you're on the draw with a slow or even potentially slow hand). That way you can always "protect" your Bridges in response to shenanigans. The other scenario where you want Gargadon over a draw/mill card is if you have a Dakmor in hand. Use the red mana for the Gargadon and play your Dakmor so that way you can begin the Dakmor/Bloodghast/Amalgam gravy train loop-de-loop. Other than that there's not much to the deck beyond your usual dredge plays.
With that in mind, if we assume that Rally the Peasants is one of Dredge's best weapons, I think we have to use the card that has the best synergy with it: Hedron Crab. I've been testing this build a little bit:
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Mana Confluence
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Shivan Reef
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Hedron Crab
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
1 Golgari Thug
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Stinkweed Imp
2 Haunted Dead
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
Instant
2 Rally the Peasants
Sorcery
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Faithless Looting
Artifact
3 Shriekhorn
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Noxious Revival
3 Duress
2 Lightning Axe
1 Collecive Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Demon of Death's Gate
The pro is that the deck has a quick Rally kill. Plus the Surgicals are brutal when directing Shriekhorn or Crab at your opponent so it has great game against combo postboard. The cons are that game 1 there's no interaction, board or otherwise until game 2 and 3. Conflagrate can obviously find room here but I was just looking to build a good Rally version first, and adjust second. Even though CG can clear the board, I think Rally plays a duel role and is just as good in some cases. Both cards have a weird overlap in what they do that I can't quite explain.
Just saying: 4 dredge decks in the top 32 and one at number 1 yet again at the Syracuse Open. You better believe the graveyard hate is coming. Metas are defined quick nowadays, which means adjustments happen even quicker.
I still like Duress over Thoughtseize. Everything you need it to hit, it hits, and you never have to worry about the life loss. I don't know if it's just me, but the life loss is usually critical postboard. Decks either bring in sweepers or GY hate to slow you down, and the deck, IMO, gets into attrition battles in these scenarios.
Observations:
-On Life from the Loam versus Bridge from Below. Dredge is kind of unique in that micro-deviations have macro effects. Loam gives the deck a little more consistency, but just a little less velocity. Bridge is ALL velocity. If you want that game 1 to be easier, I think the Bridge version of the way to go.
-Sideboarding...I'm already seeing an increase in GY hate (two people at my LGS play it besides me), so I think it's useful to talk the future. Before Dredge got these new toys I was trying this stupid as hell Demon of Death's Gate version with Call to the Netherworld. Not saying we need these cards, but I could see Demon being good PB for decks trying to beat us with Anger of the Gods. Plus Demon is better for versions that run two Haunted Deads. I haven't tested, but it's just a thought.
-I still feel like Rally the Peasants might be the strongest weapon Dredge has. It's basically our Flame Kin Zealot. It's as good game 1 as it is game 2 and 3 in most scenarios (where as I don't think the same is true of Bridge or Conflagrate). Plus most lists have some combination of Mana Confluence, or Gemstones and can pay for white mana in a bind.
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Mountain
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
Creature
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Haunted Dead
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Faithless Looting
1 Lightning Axe
3 Burning Inquiry
3 Goblin Lore
2 Conflagrate
1 Life from the Loam
Instant
2 Darkblast
2 Noxious Revival
3 Duress
2 Lightning Axe
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Collective Brutality
3 Echoing Truth
2 Gnaw to the Bone
My losses were all attrition games that came down to just poor card selection on my part. The manabase hurt him when I had two confluences in one game, and not having green for that sideboarded Gnaw to the Bone was critical on my last matchup. In other words, I need to buy Copperlines ASAP.
The only thing I'll try to add that I think hasn't been mentioned is some combination of Noxious Revival/Mystic Retrieval: I really think these should be tested to optimize SB bullets. I only had 2 Noxious Revivals but they came out huge everytime, either getting back a duress (which I think is better than Thoughtseize in the matchups you want it), milled removal (lightning axe), or making the Looting cheaper when I needed it to be.
Echo the things JWELT said about Collective Brutality: another card that needs a bit more testing, and is possibly something to consider with Mystic Retrieval. The card is just that good, and something I may want over Haunted Dead (which I know is solid).
Anyway, just a few thoughts.
I agree. It's so much better than than the previous blue incarnation, and having an extra creature to trigger Amalgam is huge. I run one though just because it doesn't mix well with the Conflagrate. Here's my list I'll be running on Thursday:
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
2 Mountain
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Ghost Quarter
Creature
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Haunted Dead
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Darkblast
Sorcery
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Inquiry
3 Goblin Lore
2 Conflagrate
1 Life from the Loam
2 Noxious Revival
3 Lightning Axe
3 Duress
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Echoing Truth
I personally like the single Loam: dredge doesn't need lands except to make a bigger Conflagrate, and you only want one or two Conflagrates IMO: the synergy between the two cards requires more set up than you often have time for. A lot of times I find myself just Conflagrating without Loam just to either clear up the board, or get in enough damage through to pressure with hasty bloodghasts. In my experience, 10 is the magic number: if you have your opponent at ten, that's usually a wrap.
My list is a little too toolboxy (Courser, Glen Elendra, and Huntmaster seem good in specific situations as add as that sounds). I found myself grinding wins like a Jund deck. I was also running one Spell Queller and a Selfless Spirit in the side that came in handy a lot. A lot of things I would change but I feel like Eldritch Evolution is a card that either wants something like Aristocrats, or something bigger like curving into Elesh Norn. I'm not really sure. Either that or the SB needs to be figured out.
Evolution changes the curve, and thus, the rhythm of the deck so this will take a lot of playtesting and patience.
It's also why I like 1 Relic of Progenitus in the side. It's good against general tombstone shenanigans, plus it's solid against Snapcaster decks.