Sol ring and mana crypt are banned. They are actually very good against clique because they allow you to play threats before clique can get their counters online. More over I am not saying that you can not run acceleration. I am just saying that accelerating into big creatures is bad vs clique because it just waters down your hand making it easier for clique to counter your threats. There is a healthy balance between acceleration, threats, and converted mana cost, but a lot of decks haven't found that yet because they want to bump out big dudes.
I said combo pieces that do nothing on their own. And again I am not saying don't run combos, I am just saying that in the clique match-up they are bad. Especially if your whole deck is revolving around that combo.
And I don't think the only relevant threats against clique are high casting cost and in 5 colors. I think dark blast is a relevant threat against clique and it only cost B. I think that wall of denial is a threat against clique. I think kor haven and maze of ith are all good cheap threats.
There is no way to make a deck that has spells that are relevant against every other deck. And there are a lot of cards that are irrelevant against clique, but I don't think that clique is too impossible to beat that it needs to be banned.
I disagree. Though Wydwen and Dralnu are both reasonably competetive generals, there is no way that they would replace Clique as being the format warping deck if Clique was banned. Clique's CIP effect makes it essentially a "counter" in and of itself, getting rid of the opponent's most formidable spell and replacing it with something that is typically much weaker. Not only this but Clique has an immediate effect on the game when it is resolved due to this ability, Wydwen and Dralnu do not. Sure you could build Wydwen and stuff it with countermagic, but you will never have the built-in "Duress" that gives Clique the edge. Dralnu on the other hand is inherently much much slower than Clique and doesn't establish any sort of clock. Both Wydwen and Dralnu both give your opponent a window of opportunity to respond to them whereas typically the Clique does not again thanks to the CIP ability.
I also agree that there can be measures taken into consideration for shoring up matches against the Clique and other top tier generals, but there comes a point where you'll be adding narrowly effective spells to have a narrowly better chance of beating them, all the while making your other matchups distinctively worse. BTW I play Darkblast in all of my competetively geared black decks and Clique still runs all over me. The addition of 1, 2, or even 5 spells in a 99 card deck can't give you the consistency to beat a deck that has access to their key card at will, especially when that key card can effectively tuck all of your answers should they come to the surface.
I do agree that clique is better than wydwen and dralnu, its CIP effect is stronger than the inclusion of black which really only adds discard, tutors and creature kill, which really isn't necessary with clique. But I still think that the decks that are losing to clique will still lose to a counter spell heavy deck. Clique's ability to get rid of someones general is very powerful, taking the best card from a hand is very good and everything about clique is very good, but I don't think it is to good.
As for the darkblast, it is by no means a "I win" card against clique but it does help out a lot, as I am sure you are aware. I am just saying that there are some cards that are very good against clique and other generals that people could play but don't.
I don't play in the tournaments online but I read the deck lists of those in the tournaments and have played against most of them in real life. My friends who I play with do play in these tournaments and we discus the decks and the card choices. I think you and I have different ideas of what is chaff and that chaff changes in different match ups. Creature enchantments are chaff, they do nothing if the player does not have a creature. Artifact mana and mana accelerates are chaff. Clique doesn't care how fast you get mana because it can spend 2 mana to counter what you ramp into. Enchantment and artifact removal, these are pretty dead against clique. Combo pieces that do nothing on their own, clique can easily 2 for one many people because they run combo pieces that need both pieces to actually do anything. When you add all those cards together there is a lot of chaff and clique has more counters than those decks have actual threats.
I don't see why you keep trying to discredit me and say I don't know what I am talking about. If you see a flaw in something I say feel free to say where you see it, but don't just go around saying that I don't know what I am talking about.
@Lambs and Lions, I agree with you on principal. When met with the best deck in the format, the rest of the field needs to adapt and become better (both the players and the decks). However you also must agree in principal there reaches a tipping point where a deck (whether or not it takes skill to pilot or not) becomes too format warping and is no longer healthy for that format.
I don't think the majority of people hear disagree with you in believing that in order to be competitive you need to adapt your strategies and decks. However I and others beleive that Clique is past that tipping point. It is too good.
The people who lose to clique are still going to lose to dralnu or wydwen (which run just as much counter magic and disruption) Decks that have more counters that they have threats. And again this stems from the whole problem that so many of the decks are slow, bulky and rely on only a few ways of actually winning. So many of the decks can not win without their general. So many of the decks have 20 dead cards when they don't have their general up an running. So many of the decks have no card advantage. And so many decks have very little ways to deal with a threat. These decks just have cards that don't matter. This is the reason clique wins. I do think clique is better than wydwen and dralnu but not by very much. And with clique gone those two will do the exact same thing.
Some things about your post make me think you're one of several people who have commented on this issue without reading the thread title, or at least did not understand what meta we're talking about.
My only real question is, will Clique be the only change to the banned list?
I am completely aware we are talking about 1v1 and I know which decks were played and placed in the few last mws tournies. I still think that many people take the wrong approach to deck building.
I don't think there is anything wrong with clique. I think the main problem is that other decks are built poorly. So many decks are bulky and top heavy. They don't run much removal and don't really have ways to deal with clique. Basically all the clique player has to do is resolve clique and then only counter threats. Most decks have very few sources of card advantage and run a lot of cards that do nothing on their own. There are way, way, way too many creature enchantments and equipments and artifact mana sources. When you get down to it most decks really don't have a lot of actual threatening cards and set themselves up for massive 2 for 1's. Whats more so many decks can not play more than one spell a turn. Because they can't play more than one spell a turn (at sorcery speed I might add) clique players can just sit back and counter one spell a turn for 7 turns and win.
Also people do not adapt their deck for the environment. They just focus on what they are doing so they are easily disrupted. For example, I think that black decks should run dark blast As it is good against clique and rafellos which are two of the best generals. But it is also really good against random decks. I blew out a Nath player because he was relying on mana elves for acceleration. I also crushed a isamaru player who thought his aven mindcensor was going to stop my entomb. Flame Jab is another card I think is actually really good because again it deals with those problem two problem generals and also does a number on many other cards. Hell I could see people playing desert which would halt clique until they can find LD and doesn't really cost the deck anything by running it. What is more desert can be tutored for very easily in green, black and blue, white and red can use expedition map to tutor for it..
Whats more, a lot of EDH players are bad. I hate to say it but it is the truth. And players who play clique tend to be just better players. The clique deck can really capitalize on misplays and most the time when I see clique being played the person is just outplaying the opponent. A lot of people playing against clique don't understand what cards in their hand are threats and what are not. They think too linear about what they do against all the other decks.
The massive amount of counters clique plays does make clique an unfun deck to play against and I think that may be a big reason a lot of people don't want to play against it. I really hope clique doesn't get banned. I personally don't run it and I dread the match ups against it because they tend to be difficult but I feel that taking it out of the format would only make the format worst.
The colossus seems weak. Siege gang commander would be a better choice. It makes your warp worlds better and can shoot to the face very well. Also you should probably play blood braid elves. It is one of the best creatures in standard. It like siege gang adds to the warp world count (only when you cast it) and when you resolve a warp world it is nice to have a haste creature to bash in on empty boards.
All of the new naming stuff is horrible anyway. Exiled? Lame. They just exiled my fun more like it.
and mana burn? Wow...I just always thought you had to be careful with your mana and such, but now, hey, let's just creature a bunch of mana for the fun of it...Now how am I supposed to suicide when at 1 Life?
The morphling losing its tricks suck. But really, no one plays morphling anymore.
You can still block and activate mishra's factory. You are just going to have to do this before damage is dealt. 90% of the time pump before damage is dealt is better than after it is on the stack anyway. Same with the elves. Pump before damage is on the stack usually means you kill a 4/4. So now you just have to do all your tricks in the declared blockers step.
What really gets me in the new change is firststrike and blocking orders. I am a big fan of multiple blocks, letting the opponent try to kill them all only to pump all of them. Now they will not be blown out by the blocks.
First strike is annoying. I think that is a creature strikes first then there should be time inbetween to play abilities. Your Husk should be able to eat that white knight because he is done attacking and just loafing around now. But really it doesn't change too much.
I agree the new terms really suck. But I do love that lifelink and death touch are state based now instead of triggered abilites.
Honestly the best anti-swans tech is pithing needle. This means they need to draw either primal command or deny reality before you kill them. Runed halo is not an answer. A swans player just laughs at a runed halo. They will combo out at end of turn to get enough land to kill you plus either primal command or deny reality. Runed halo buys you one turn and that is all.
meddling mage is also a pain in the ass for them. They have to wait until they can play bit blast or deny reality. Even then if they cascaed into seismic assult they still can not play it.
If I had to side for it though I would side in needles because they are great other matchups too.
Are you on the play or the draw?
What two lands are they?
How many cards are in your hand?
What can you cast with these lands?
If I had windbrisk heights, fetid heath, bitterblossom and some combination of other cards I would probably keep it. Especially if I had a number of 3 drops.
If you have two lands and cloudgoats and ajani's I would not keep it.
Hey guys, I just wanted to point out that runed halo does very little in the match-up in the swans match up. It buys you a turn at best. If you have a ruined halo out swans is just going to combo off at the end of your turn and find a deny reality or primal command. They are also going to have a hand full of land and just kill you. Buying one turn is not worth the card slot because it slows you down. Pithing needle hurts them and so does aura of silence.
I don't understand what ranger of eos and zealous guardian are doing. They just confuse me. Flurry of wings is not very good. your opponent has to attack to make if good and if they are only attacking with one big creature, well, it just isn't great. Knight captain of EOs is to expensive for what you get. Fog effects aren't great.
I would really suggest sticking to GW tokens especially if you do not have the lands. It is much harder to support three colours with basic lands than two colours.
i would suggest against taking out tidehollow because it can complete wreck opponents in some situations.
If you may want to try taking out sculler and adding in 4 main deck terror, giving you 7 main deck removal spells. It may sound like a bit much but it completely wrecks all creature based decks and helps stop swans.
Deny Reality Vs. Bit Blast (Or even Enlisted Wurm? Also hits Primal Command)
Captured Sunlight Vs. BB Elf
Naseum Vs. Primal Command
Spinerock Vs. None
I personally like deny reality better than blast. Killing a creature is usually pretty irrelevant when you cast it because you usually end up getting a seismic assault when you cast it and you either just win that turn or use the assault to kill a problem creature. The deny reality lets you bounce pithing needle or rune halo which are the two most common ways of stopping this deck. The only think I like better about the blast is that it is instant and you can play it end of turn to make control tap out.
I like naseum over primal command. I have never cast a ad naseum and lost. Usually all you need to find is a bloodbraid elf or seismic assault and 10 land, which is actually supper easy. Primal command is nice for getting ride of pithing needle and run halo, searching for a missing combo piece and gaining life. But it will never just mast you win the game.
I would run both captured sunlight and blood braid. either 3 captured and 3bloodbraid or 3 captured and 4 blood braid. captured sunlight is so good against creature based decks.
I do not like spinerock it comes into play tapped and it never hits anything. When it does hit something you wish it hadn't. It is only good when it flips over a swans, in which case you normally win. But because of the fact that is you flip a swans you win I would keep it.
I like this deck but I can't stand when you are losing, all you ever draw is land so you feel very helpless. Also I think there is too much hate for this deck. Its good now, becaus no one knows about it so no one has a side but I think don't like that pithing needle is able to shut the deck down. You always have to side board your hate for their hate because if you don't and they have a needle or runed halo you just lose.
It feels like playing dredge. You don't interact with your oppent at all. You normally win game one unless they have the nuts and games two and three they side in the hate.
I said combo pieces that do nothing on their own. And again I am not saying don't run combos, I am just saying that in the clique match-up they are bad. Especially if your whole deck is revolving around that combo.
And I don't think the only relevant threats against clique are high casting cost and in 5 colors. I think dark blast is a relevant threat against clique and it only cost B. I think that wall of denial is a threat against clique. I think kor haven and maze of ith are all good cheap threats.
There is no way to make a deck that has spells that are relevant against every other deck. And there are a lot of cards that are irrelevant against clique, but I don't think that clique is too impossible to beat that it needs to be banned.
As for the darkblast, it is by no means a "I win" card against clique but it does help out a lot, as I am sure you are aware. I am just saying that there are some cards that are very good against clique and other generals that people could play but don't.
I don't see why you keep trying to discredit me and say I don't know what I am talking about. If you see a flaw in something I say feel free to say where you see it, but don't just go around saying that I don't know what I am talking about.
Also people do not adapt their deck for the environment. They just focus on what they are doing so they are easily disrupted. For example, I think that black decks should run dark blast As it is good against clique and rafellos which are two of the best generals. But it is also really good against random decks. I blew out a Nath player because he was relying on mana elves for acceleration. I also crushed a isamaru player who thought his aven mindcensor was going to stop my entomb. Flame Jab is another card I think is actually really good because again it deals with those problem two problem generals and also does a number on many other cards. Hell I could see people playing desert which would halt clique until they can find LD and doesn't really cost the deck anything by running it. What is more desert can be tutored for very easily in green, black and blue, white and red can use expedition map to tutor for it..
Whats more, a lot of EDH players are bad. I hate to say it but it is the truth. And players who play clique tend to be just better players. The clique deck can really capitalize on misplays and most the time when I see clique being played the person is just outplaying the opponent. A lot of people playing against clique don't understand what cards in their hand are threats and what are not. They think too linear about what they do against all the other decks.
The massive amount of counters clique plays does make clique an unfun deck to play against and I think that may be a big reason a lot of people don't want to play against it. I really hope clique doesn't get banned. I personally don't run it and I dread the match ups against it because they tend to be difficult but I feel that taking it out of the format would only make the format worst.
The morphling losing its tricks suck. But really, no one plays morphling anymore.
You can still block and activate mishra's factory. You are just going to have to do this before damage is dealt. 90% of the time pump before damage is dealt is better than after it is on the stack anyway. Same with the elves. Pump before damage is on the stack usually means you kill a 4/4. So now you just have to do all your tricks in the declared blockers step.
What really gets me in the new change is firststrike and blocking orders. I am a big fan of multiple blocks, letting the opponent try to kill them all only to pump all of them. Now they will not be blown out by the blocks.
First strike is annoying. I think that is a creature strikes first then there should be time inbetween to play abilities. Your Husk should be able to eat that white knight because he is done attacking and just loafing around now. But really it doesn't change too much.
I agree the new terms really suck. But I do love that lifelink and death touch are state based now instead of triggered abilites.
meddling mage is also a pain in the ass for them. They have to wait until they can play bit blast or deny reality. Even then if they cascaed into seismic assult they still can not play it.
If I had to side for it though I would side in needles because they are great other matchups too.
Are you on the play or the draw?
What two lands are they?
How many cards are in your hand?
What can you cast with these lands?
If I had windbrisk heights, fetid heath, bitterblossom and some combination of other cards I would probably keep it. Especially if I had a number of 3 drops.
If you have two lands and cloudgoats and ajani's I would not keep it.
I would really suggest sticking to GW tokens especially if you do not have the lands. It is much harder to support three colours with basic lands than two colours.
I personally like deny reality better than blast. Killing a creature is usually pretty irrelevant when you cast it because you usually end up getting a seismic assault when you cast it and you either just win that turn or use the assault to kill a problem creature. The deny reality lets you bounce pithing needle or rune halo which are the two most common ways of stopping this deck. The only think I like better about the blast is that it is instant and you can play it end of turn to make control tap out.
I like naseum over primal command. I have never cast a ad naseum and lost. Usually all you need to find is a bloodbraid elf or seismic assault and 10 land, which is actually supper easy. Primal command is nice for getting ride of pithing needle and run halo, searching for a missing combo piece and gaining life. But it will never just mast you win the game.
I would run both captured sunlight and blood braid. either 3 captured and 3bloodbraid or 3 captured and 4 blood braid. captured sunlight is so good against creature based decks.
I do not like spinerock it comes into play tapped and it never hits anything. When it does hit something you wish it hadn't. It is only good when it flips over a swans, in which case you normally win. But because of the fact that is you flip a swans you win I would keep it.
I like this deck but I can't stand when you are losing, all you ever draw is land so you feel very helpless. Also I think there is too much hate for this deck. Its good now, becaus no one knows about it so no one has a side but I think don't like that pithing needle is able to shut the deck down. You always have to side board your hate for their hate because if you don't and they have a needle or runed halo you just lose.
It feels like playing dredge. You don't interact with your oppent at all. You normally win game one unless they have the nuts and games two and three they side in the hate.