Thank you for the reply. I'm running the HaryF list you added to your first post. As you know it runs Karn in the slot where you use Detritivore. The advantage of Detritivore, of course is that you can tutor for it. If I was running a deck that ran main deck Primals I would consider Acidic Slime main as it is really versatile. I like the idea of Tec Edge too, so I will consider running one Wolf Run and one Tec Edge.
Thanks for your SB plan. My one question there is if you think Seals are enough against Bogle. I had a seal and an E-Witness in my opening hand in a game two against Bogle and got stomped anyway. Maybe he had a good draw, it seemed pretty weak. I can see your MD Firespout being useful here too and more versatile than something like Fracturing Gust.
The aggro question was more about Wall of Roots being able to stall a turn or two allowing the deck to go off. I think you are right about the swarm decks and can see firespout being exceptionally versatile. It would have been relevant in all four of my matches and could have really shored up the Bogle Match.
Hey there Zen Viking, in general i like to side out the dismembers/abundant growths first. But sometimes also shave on gwave/harmonize to make slots in some matchups, and I like to side out karn/cloudstone in others.
...The primal commands are cute, but i dont think that they are necessary, if you really want to beat agro while still having something that cam out attrition control, just play kitchen finks. I think I might drop my SBed commands for them myself ...
I think that my version is one of the very best to pick in a interactive meta. The abundant growths with the harmonizes and full G wave mean that the deck is the 'smallest' out of all the variants because my list has the most and the cheapest card draw, while the mana package is full of cards that make any threat a dangerous topdeck at any point in the game (harmonize/garruk at 4, titan at 6, wave at 9+) Other versions might goldfish faster at the sake of consistency. Others might beatdown better, but this one is the most consistently dangerous in face of what other people's decks might do to stop us.
Thank you very much for the list and the SB plan. That was very helpful. I had started with Jarvis Yu's list a few weeks ago, but my testing showed some of the same weaknesses that your deck shores up. I've also been toying with the idea of a few kitchen finks in SB, so we're on the same page there too.
I played four rounds at FNM. It was a really big turnout this week, so they unexpectedly were going to cut to a top eight and I didn't want to play until 2 AM for a FNM promo.
Still, I got in four good matches.
Round 1 (L, 0-1) I played one of the strongest players in the tourney who was on Bogle. At one point I'd had Fracturing Gust in my SB, but I'd replaced them with the seals. I was kicking myself for that decision as it would have completely shut him down in games two and three. As it turned out he took down both games.
Round 2: (W, 1-1) I was paired up against a pod player running a blood artist variation. Game one was pretty interesting as he had me down to six life and I had to curve out pretty well to go off before he finished me off after podding into Wurmcoil Engine. I sided in the Seals and the Dismembers, but kept a hand I should have mulliganed (four lands, Harmonize, Garruk, Wave). I didn't draw any low drops and he won before I had much of anything going. Game three, I Sealed his Pod and Dismembered a Blood Artist before winning with a Wolf Run Titan.
Round 3: (W, 2-1) I played against a BR "Burning Bridges" deck this round which ran Ensnaring Bridges, some evasive lifelinkers like Vampire Nighthawk, and a bunch of burn spells. I waved into Karn in game one and exiled the bridge and then won pretty handily with a Wolf Run Titan. I sideboarded wrong--mainly because I didn't know the deck's plan after a quick game one--and lost game two. Game three I kept him off of the bridges and looped some waves together before yet another Wolf Run Titan.
Round 4: (W, 3-1) Round four was an infect deck. I was glad to have the Wall of Roots in this build to help slow him down. We both mulliganed to five in game one, but I had Abundant Growths and Harmonize to fuel the engine and he didn't. I played a few early walls and quickly ramped into Karn in game two. I was able to exile his forests which kept a bunch of pump spells stuck in his hand. He was pretty frustrated by the end of the match.
And that was the end of the night for me. Here are my take-aways:
1. Kessig Wolf Run was my win condition in nearly every game. I could have gotten fancier a few times, but Kessig was just a more direct route. I also went to turns in round two against pod, so I was happy to have a quick win-con I could tutor up with the Titan.
2. I really did like this build a lot. Wall of Roots is sweet, and I prefer it to Burning-Tree quite a bit. This build weakens the likelihood of winning via a Garruk overrun, but it makes sure that you stay alive long enough to play a Titan or Wave and ensure a victory.
3. I am still not sure about Abundant Growth. I think it is a better choice than Visionary (although this again weakens the Garruk Overrun), but is great insurance against sweepers. The card draw was handy when I had mulliganed though.
4. I am not sure what to do about the Bogle matchup. Fracturing Gust seems like a pretty narrow answer and also messes with our own enchantments. I like the Seals against a lot of other decks and the green permanent is obviously a great fit with the deck.
5. Command was better for me tonight than Kitchen Finks would have been. Finks wouldn't have done much blocking in the Blood Artist Pod matchup or against the evasive threats in the Ensnaring Bridge match. Neither deck is a significant part of the meta, but it is worth noting that Command does have some versatility which is useful in a format like Modern.
6. As others have said, you really need a hand that will allow for some early ramp or you need to mulligan. After game one you need to consider how they are likely to disrupt you and have a second plan. I like that a volcanic fallout effect doesn't just wreck this build's ramp or devotion numbers.
I will be playing the deck in a modern tournament this weekend for the first time, and I had a couple of questions.
1. What matchups are Primal Commands better than G-waves? My creature curve tops out at Titan, and I've been pretty unimpressed with Command in general during my testing. I am considering about running a singleton bomb out of the sideboard or possibly replacing Karn in the maindeck.
2. What cards can you board OUT of the deck? What cards do you never want to board out to maintain the combo? I am looking at running something similar to HaryF's in the opening post.
3. Does the deck need to worry address aggro matchups via the sideboard or would that be wasted space?
Reason 3 - Your running Crucible of Worlds or Life From Loam for other reasons. If you have Crucible in your deck, a fetchland basically means you'll never miss another land drop unless you want to. I wouldn't throw crucible into a deck for this reason, but if your already running it (with its lock buddies, Strip, Waste and Dust), then I can see making sure the deck has 3 or 4 fetches.
Oh yeah, and Landfall, but thats pretty self explanatory.
So how do I see it?
On Color fetches are an easy call, you should run them. Half Color fetches are a much more intricate one, but unless you have a strong reason to run them, or several reasons too, I'd recommend against it. And honestly, I'd be very wary about going above 4 or 5 fetches for any reason. A good mana base makes sure you can always cast your spells, butit's also important to balance that with the self inflicted damage and tempo loss. There's no hard and fast rule, becuase every deck is different in how much they care about those things.
Are there reasons for not running Crucible and its lockmates (other than not making people angry?) I guess it is possible that color demands might be too high in some cases....
Thanks that does help a lot to see that other forum.
And, yes, the forums here are amazing. The EDH database is an amazing resource as are the posters here.
It is just that other than a label of "(M)" on the decklists it is hard to find discussions specifically for multiplayer EDH decks when that is almost all I ever see people play. There is one little kid who bugs everyone to duel EDH at FNM and there were some guys who had EDH decks built for a gunslinger table. Meanwhile, there are multiplayer tournaments around town all the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadi Thinking in fetches that you are half in-colour with, the only answer I can give is that this depends on your deck. The deck-thinning effect of the fetchlands is negligible, so unless you have another reason for running them you shouldn't throw them in for the heck of it. The benefits they provide are as follows:
1: They can find dual-lands, and therefore effectively manafix. 2: They allow you to shuffle, giving benefits with The Top and similar effects. 3: They allow you to shuffle, stifling Tunnel Vision and similar combos.
I wouldn't run them all, or otherwise you end up with 9 fetches in a 3-colour deck, which isn't very handy unless you intend on using landfall or really need the fixing. I would play the 3 that are on your colours and probably up to 3 that you are half-in.
The exceptions are the 5-colour decks that need all the fixing they can get and probably want to run all 10 fetches. (Note that there are no 4-colour decks in EDH, due to there not being any 4-colour legendary creatures.)
I am really only interested in playing multiplayer EDH and I find that a lot of discussions, primers, and lists seem to focus on 1 on 1 decks or at least try build for both duels and multiplayer tables.
#1 Do people really play that many duels with EDH?
#2 What are the best resources for multiplayer EDH?
I've found an article about building an EDH manabase that suggests running "4-5 Onslaught Fetch Lands (excluding any combination you don't run)" for a three color EDH deck. Obviously this was written pre-Zendikar, so it doesn't account for enemy fetches.
Should you be running every fetch land that gets you even one land type you are running? Does this serve functions other than fetching up the original duals?
Thanks that is useful. I found something like that on a thread, but the way that the poster quoted it (two different plans mushed together) it was unclear what was going in and out.
To be honest, you don't have to restrict yourself to those colours only. Going red, white, blue can also be very strong.
My team was onto the red, white, blue deck about a month ago for a cash tournament. At that time I had basically gone something like 14-1 with a boros deck in recent weeks and though I knew Jund was a better choice I felt like I should keep going with the boros train. Plus, at the time I didn't feel like having every "meta decision" being made to directly hate on my deck. It was still early, so it wasn't clear that Jund could basically shrug off the hate.
Thanks to everyone for the input so far. Lots of really good stuff (even the sarcastic comments).
@Good point CorpT. I hadn't seen those numbers crunched, but that is pretty clear. Those big tournaments get pretty long, so I hate to play the deck that everyone is gunning for hate packed to the gills. I guess Jund is just so versatile and resiliant that it is extremely hard to hate out.
@demigod, I've played enough with earlier versions of naya to understand that deck pretty well and I've messed around with Bant decks since Alara came out.
Looking at the world's lists I am wondering which deck to pilot at this weekend's tournament: Jund, Naya, or Bant. I am looking to take one of these to my states tournaments as well.
I have taken about month off due to a hectic personal and work schedule, so I am not extremel tuned into the current meta (which probably was flipped on its ear by the World Champs anyway). Also, I had played quite a bit of Jund before my break and would maybe like to see what one of the other decks plays like.
Which would you run? Any opinions on particular decklists? I know there is endless variation in the Jund lists that made 5-1, and with Naya the one that "won" is compeltely different than the one that actually posted a top record in the first six rounds of Swiss.
Thank you for the reply. I'm running the HaryF list you added to your first post. As you know it runs Karn in the slot where you use Detritivore. The advantage of Detritivore, of course is that you can tutor for it. If I was running a deck that ran main deck Primals I would consider Acidic Slime main as it is really versatile. I like the idea of Tec Edge too, so I will consider running one Wolf Run and one Tec Edge.
Thanks for your SB plan. My one question there is if you think Seals are enough against Bogle. I had a seal and an E-Witness in my opening hand in a game two against Bogle and got stomped anyway. Maybe he had a good draw, it seemed pretty weak. I can see your MD Firespout being useful here too and more versatile than something like Fracturing Gust.
The aggro question was more about Wall of Roots being able to stall a turn or two allowing the deck to go off. I think you are right about the swarm decks and can see firespout being exceptionally versatile. It would have been relevant in all four of my matches and could have really shored up the Bogle Match.
Thank you very much for the list and the SB plan. That was very helpful. I had started with Jarvis Yu's list a few weeks ago, but my testing showed some of the same weaknesses that your deck shores up. I've also been toying with the idea of a few kitchen finks in SB, so we're on the same page there too.
I played four rounds at FNM. It was a really big turnout this week, so they unexpectedly were going to cut to a top eight and I didn't want to play until 2 AM for a FNM promo.
Still, I got in four good matches.
Round 1 (L, 0-1) I played one of the strongest players in the tourney who was on Bogle. At one point I'd had Fracturing Gust in my SB, but I'd replaced them with the seals. I was kicking myself for that decision as it would have completely shut him down in games two and three. As it turned out he took down both games.
Round 2: (W, 1-1) I was paired up against a pod player running a blood artist variation. Game one was pretty interesting as he had me down to six life and I had to curve out pretty well to go off before he finished me off after podding into Wurmcoil Engine. I sided in the Seals and the Dismembers, but kept a hand I should have mulliganed (four lands, Harmonize, Garruk, Wave). I didn't draw any low drops and he won before I had much of anything going. Game three, I Sealed his Pod and Dismembered a Blood Artist before winning with a Wolf Run Titan.
Round 3: (W, 2-1) I played against a BR "Burning Bridges" deck this round which ran Ensnaring Bridges, some evasive lifelinkers like Vampire Nighthawk, and a bunch of burn spells. I waved into Karn in game one and exiled the bridge and then won pretty handily with a Wolf Run Titan. I sideboarded wrong--mainly because I didn't know the deck's plan after a quick game one--and lost game two. Game three I kept him off of the bridges and looped some waves together before yet another Wolf Run Titan.
Round 4: (W, 3-1) Round four was an infect deck. I was glad to have the Wall of Roots in this build to help slow him down. We both mulliganed to five in game one, but I had Abundant Growths and Harmonize to fuel the engine and he didn't. I played a few early walls and quickly ramped into Karn in game two. I was able to exile his forests which kept a bunch of pump spells stuck in his hand. He was pretty frustrated by the end of the match.
And that was the end of the night for me. Here are my take-aways:
1. Kessig Wolf Run was my win condition in nearly every game. I could have gotten fancier a few times, but Kessig was just a more direct route. I also went to turns in round two against pod, so I was happy to have a quick win-con I could tutor up with the Titan.
2. I really did like this build a lot. Wall of Roots is sweet, and I prefer it to Burning-Tree quite a bit. This build weakens the likelihood of winning via a Garruk overrun, but it makes sure that you stay alive long enough to play a Titan or Wave and ensure a victory.
3. I am still not sure about Abundant Growth. I think it is a better choice than Visionary (although this again weakens the Garruk Overrun), but is great insurance against sweepers. The card draw was handy when I had mulliganed though.
4. I am not sure what to do about the Bogle matchup. Fracturing Gust seems like a pretty narrow answer and also messes with our own enchantments. I like the Seals against a lot of other decks and the green permanent is obviously a great fit with the deck.
5. Command was better for me tonight than Kitchen Finks would have been. Finks wouldn't have done much blocking in the Blood Artist Pod matchup or against the evasive threats in the Ensnaring Bridge match. Neither deck is a significant part of the meta, but it is worth noting that Command does have some versatility which is useful in a format like Modern.
6. As others have said, you really need a hand that will allow for some early ramp or you need to mulligan. After game one you need to consider how they are likely to disrupt you and have a second plan. I like that a volcanic fallout effect doesn't just wreck this build's ramp or devotion numbers.
1. What matchups are Primal Commands better than G-waves? My creature curve tops out at Titan, and I've been pretty unimpressed with Command in general during my testing. I am considering about running a singleton bomb out of the sideboard or possibly replacing Karn in the maindeck.
2. What cards can you board OUT of the deck? What cards do you never want to board out to maintain the combo? I am looking at running something similar to HaryF's in the opening post.
3. Does the deck need to worry address aggro matchups via the sideboard or would that be wasted space?
Are there reasons for not running Crucible and its lockmates (other than not making people angry?) I guess it is possible that color demands might be too high in some cases....
And, yes, the forums here are amazing. The EDH database is an amazing resource as are the posters here.
It is just that other than a label of "(M)" on the decklists it is hard to find discussions specifically for multiplayer EDH decks when that is almost all I ever see people play. There is one little kid who bugs everyone to duel EDH at FNM and there were some guys who had EDH decks built for a gunslinger table. Meanwhile, there are multiplayer tournaments around town all the time.
So does that mean 9 for a three color deck? Am I missing something for a WUG general?
Onslaught GW fetchOnslaught WU fetchZendikar UG fetch Zendikar UR fetch Zendikar WB fetch Zendikar BG fetch Onslaught RG Onslaught UB Onslaught WR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadi
Thinking in fetches that you are half in-colour with, the only answer I can give is that this depends on your deck. The deck-thinning effect of the fetchlands is negligible, so unless you have another reason for running them you shouldn't throw them in for the heck of it. The benefits they provide are as follows:
1: They can find dual-lands, and therefore effectively manafix.
2: They allow you to shuffle, giving benefits with The Top and similar effects.
3: They allow you to shuffle, stifling Tunnel Vision and similar combos.
I wouldn't run them all, or otherwise you end up with 9 fetches in a 3-colour deck, which isn't very handy unless you intend on using landfall or really need the fixing. I would play the 3 that are on your colours and probably up to 3 that you are half-in.
The exceptions are the 5-colour decks that need all the fixing they can get and probably want to run all 10 fetches. (Note that there are no 4-colour decks in EDH, due to there not being any 4-colour legendary creatures.)
Thanks, that is a really well-thought out answer.
#1 Do people really play that many duels with EDH?
#2 What are the best resources for multiplayer EDH?
Should you be running every fetch land that gets you even one land type you are running? Does this serve functions other than fetching up the original duals?
Thank you.
We start out by using the mainstream decks in their most popular incarnations so that we can best understand the meta.
Also, which deck has a better matchup versus the Boros or RDW decks?
My team was onto the red, white, blue deck about a month ago for a cash tournament. At that time I had basically gone something like 14-1 with a boros deck in recent weeks and though I knew Jund was a better choice I felt like I should keep going with the boros train. Plus, at the time I didn't feel like having every "meta decision" being made to directly hate on my deck. It was still early, so it wasn't clear that Jund could basically shrug off the hate.
Thanks to everyone for the input so far. Lots of really good stuff (even the sarcastic comments).
@Good point CorpT. I hadn't seen those numbers crunched, but that is pretty clear. Those big tournaments get pretty long, so I hate to play the deck that everyone is gunning for hate packed to the gills. I guess Jund is just so versatile and resiliant that it is extremely hard to hate out.
@demigod, I've played enough with earlier versions of naya to understand that deck pretty well and I've messed around with Bant decks since Alara came out.
I have taken about month off due to a hectic personal and work schedule, so I am not extremel tuned into the current meta (which probably was flipped on its ear by the World Champs anyway). Also, I had played quite a bit of Jund before my break and would maybe like to see what one of the other decks plays like.
Which would you run? Any opinions on particular decklists? I know there is endless variation in the Jund lists that made 5-1, and with Naya the one that "won" is compeltely different than the one that actually posted a top record in the first six rounds of Swiss.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/9198_Getting_To_Know_Your_DCI_Rating.html