I keep hearing the same arguments here. I think the posts predicting another eternal format eventually running into same problems as Modern are spot on. It seems to me the answer is not another eternal format but rather a (large) rotating format.
I know Extended has been bashed anytime it's brought up. It was losing popularity and people were eager to move to Modern. Perhaps now that we know all the pros and cons of Modern, Extended deserves another shot.
To anyone still skeptical I ask you to consider the following:
1. For any shortcoming expressed about Modern, I argue that Frontier would eventually run into the same issue.
2. For any feature that draws people to Frontier, I argue that Extended also possesses similar positive attributes.
This has been my position since this thread began, and it hasn't changed: if cost is the issue, turning to a new non-rotating format is not the answer. A reworked version of Extended that meets power level concerns would have fewer price issues. It would be less confining than standard, while more so than modern. This is, of course, assuming that price issues are the core justification because a slow rotation would free a given format from modern's expensive staples issue to an extent. If other aspects of the format bring in more appeal, the advantages of rotation are reduced to those associated with upheaval, which many fans of modern avoid and fans of standard embrace.
I wholeheartedly agree with all of the above.
I find it amusing I see all these posts from people excited about the size of the card pool and how *this* or *that* isn't in the pool to muck things up, but happy that *this* or *that* favorite gets another chance to shine. It sounds Extended is the perfect solution to these people's wishes. Card pool sizes are comparable, and no group of cards will dominate forever like in Modern.
I have seen posts where people are concerned that Magic cannot support too many formats. There is a valid concern here, but to me Extended seems the right fit. If you have {Vintage, Modern, Frontier, Standard}, then there's three eternal formats of different sizes (with no guarantee people won't tire of Frontier and split the card pool yet again) and one rotating format. If you have {Vintage, Modern, Extended, Standard} you have two eternal and two rotating formats, each of significantly different size. Seems a more balanced way to split the pool of prospective players.
If you splash white we get Alms Beast, which works well with Master as the potential life gain becomes irrelevant. Scholar of Athreos takes that last point of life. Hundred-Handed One can hold the fort against many deck types when monstrous.
Of course, access to white or green gives additional removal options.
While I miss Eternal Witness, I think Scars could give this casual deck new life because of one card: Tunnel Ignus. Prior to rotation most everyone played Black simply for instant win Ob-Nixilis. Now black isn't needed. I kept the RGW core and added Ignus. I also took out the Avenger. While it is very impressive at racking up the tokens, Emeria Angel does a good job also and is much cheaper for hard-casting. I added singleton Titans and a Nucklavee to recur the WW.
I had made a Quillspike/Devoted Druid combo deck when the cards came out, but was never satisfied with it because the combo was fragile.
Some of the decklists in the thread have the focus more on the singletons hitting the graveyard and are very reliant on Fauna Shaman. I chose a different approach, instead focusing more on the Quillspike/Druid combo. The main advantage is that the combo pieces are meant to be hard cast and do their dirty work on the battlefield. Ooze makes the combo twice as hard to defeat, as the pieces can function from both Battlefield and Graveyard zones.
Fauna Shaman definitely helps get the combo online, and I did put 3 singleton copies of some powerful cards in the deck. The Elder and Assassin are good on their own, but combo with Ooze. The Mosstodon solves another common problem with Quillspike: chump blockers.
Merieke Ri Berit + Proteus Staff + Any untapper:
Gain control of a creature with Merieke, then use Proteus staff on it. You'll get to pull a creature out of your deck and get rid of their creature for a long time, then untap her and repeat.
End result: Your creatures onto the battlefield for cheap, your opponent's buried in their library.
This one doesn't work as you think it does. The owner, not controller put creature on bottom of their library and then gets a new one off the top. If you tried this you would be giving a (different) creature back to your opponent.
...and then stick with proven mana generation. you should be able to infinite as early as t4 (even less if you can generate crazy mana). you need blockers and creatures that can double as mana after they come in. birds of paradise and it's ilk suck for this. however, springleaf drum does not. for you, it's effectively hasty. add in some wall of roots and now you're starting to talk my language. Now, the build I relied on for my standard tourneys had to generate 14 mana as early as t4 to make it work, and I had some crazy mana to do it (I was reiterate and warp...had no creature to return it). gauntlet of power ended up very good for it as did mogg war marshal one could likewise use farhaven elf as a permanent generator (it's pretty good mid warp) or wood elves (untapped...can fetch duals..pdg, imo) but the secret to my decks particular success was really the elemental who could take 6 mana and turn it into 8. forget the name, though...
I'd really love to see the mana package you use to pull WW off on Turn 4. Wall of Roots + both Elves, as well as Fertile Ground + Trace of Abundance? As for the Elemental, are you thinking of Morselhoarder?
Warp world would be fun to play, as for its tournament viability you'd have to play a control variant to get rid of big threats that are often played early. I'd think you'd almost need a GRW version for Wrath effects and PtE.
Shortly after Zendikar came out I decided to try to make a Warp World deck and I was (mildly) surprised how nearly all of them were Jund because everyone wanted to abuse Ob-Nixilis. I wanted to take a different approach so I took a stab at Naya, which had Emeria Angel, which isn't an auto-win like Ob-Nixilis but it does a fair job generating tokens.
This deck still needs work but I'm pleased with what I have so far.
Eternal Witness. Often times when I flip Witness after WW (especially if I also flip Lotus Cobra but it isn't necessary), I return Warp to my hand and cast it again. With token creation and only 4 non-permanent cards in the library, multiple resolved WW usually spells doom for opponent.
Acidic Slime. The deck needs enchantment/artifact hate. As was pointed out in this thread, an opponent flipping Eldrazi Monument can really hurt, as can any number of other cards. Even if opponent doesn't have a juicy target you can still nuke a land.
Reveillark. Can recover all creatures except for Angel and Avenger, and still works well with WW.
I'm still trying to figure out my sideboard. I'm thinking I will want removal in the form of Path to Exile as well as Wrath of God. Other cards I thought might be interesting (please provide feedback!):
Kitchen Finks. Against aggro and burn. The life gain and persist might help stall long enough to find WW.
Flame-Kin Zealot. Some of the Jund builds are running Mad Rush Cyclops. The Zealot isn't perfect, but if it were flipped up after WW, it would allow me to attack right away before opponent could play a Wrath.
Vexing Shusher. I'm only suggesting this because this deck really has no solid plan against permission, aside from trying to draw out the counter spells by hard casting Angel, Siege-Gang, and Avenger.
The pledge is just too slow
Wrath is needed against ZOO i think
Totally agree on both counts. A better choice would be Martial Coup.
I took a very different approach and attempted to use some seldom used enchantments to my advantage. Glory of Warfare is just sick when you are generating a horde of tokens. Even more sick is Glory paired with Elemental Mastery. Auras are prone for the old 2-for-1 card disadvantage, but the upside is so huge. A lone 1/1 token is 3/1 on your turn with Glory, and can put three 3/1 Elemental tokens into combat.
I know I should have Lightning Helix in here but what card should I take out in place of it? I'm leaning towards Soul Warden, but the life gain has been very helpful in some matches.
I still dislike the idea of possibly dredging my spells along with my creatures, but that's from a purely academic point of view. I'm willing to test the Imp and see how well Dredge actually works for the deck in practice. Same with Buried Alive. Since I'm testing those cards, would Glory also be worth adding to the deck as well? I know it's very strong, but I'm just not sure what to cut for it, or for the other two cards for that matter.
Dredge can be a powerful mechanic in Highlander. The deck below is what I run in (non-EDH) highlander. It is a dedicated dredge deck. The idea of throwing cards into the grave seemed reckless to me at first, but with all the recursion available, my graveyard turned into a huge asset. The deck recovers well from mass removal, so most of my non-graveyard oriented cards are sweepers.
Perhaps the list can spark some ideas. As an aside, I wouldn't mind trying to convert this to EDH (Teneb is a natural general for this deck) but I'd have to shed 12 cards (probably 7 spells and 5 land). Any suggestions?
Challenge: "What if Lifeline were a Mythic Rare in 11th Edition? Try to use newer creatures."
Back when Lifeline was Extended legal I played an Arcbound deck that abused the fact that as long as you had one Arcbound creature in play the counters kept adding up. Of course the most important creature in that deck was Arcbound Crusher because it had trample and grew off each Artifact Creature that came back into play. Unless you can remove opponents creatures (or in this case have an uber trampler), the red zone is usually very messy with Lifeline out.
While Standard is certainly going to have the newest creatures, there are a lot of very interesting creatures going back as far as Ravnica block that probably hadn't seen much interaction with Lifeline, and I'm more at ease with Extended so I'm sticking with that format.
Removal: Archon of Justice, Withered Wretch, Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Sacrifice outlets: Thoughtpicker Witch (anti combo), Ghost Council of Orzhova (non-combat life loss), Gutless Ghoul (life), Teysa, Orzhov Scion (double duty! She has potential to remove multiple creatures every turn at no extra mana cost)
Recursion: Reveillark, Sanctum Gargoyle, Nether Traitor (if you get multiples you can set up some very sick sacrificing loops, at worst this creature has solid evasion for cluttered red zones)
Of the spells, Unmake is an obvious choice for removal. Planeswalker Vess is arguablly the most powerful tutor available because she does double duty emptying opponent's hands. Mindstone is here because we need to accelerate to 5 mana. If I draw one late in game, it at least replaces itself, and has nice synergy with Vess (get to draw that top card immediately).
The coolest interaction is Endrek Sahr with the Devour creatures Skullmulcher and Mycoloth. Sahr puts thrulls out when the creature card is played, so when the creature comes into play, there are fresh snacks waiting. For Skullmulcher you get an 8/8 and 5 card draw. For Mycoloth, you get a 14/14 with 10 saprolings each upkeep. The count on these key card may seem a bit low, but they all cost 5cc and they were messing the mana curve. Curiously, the solution was a card that nominally costs more: Chord of Calling. However, with token creatures the evoke cost is usually reasonable. Best part about the Chord is that it's an instant. Playing this during combat or end of opponent's turn can really swing the game.
Speaking of token creatures, Creakwood Liege is amazing, churning out 3/3 Wurms every turn and pumping up my evasion minded Nether Traitors (which are conveniently munchable and can still come back later in game).
Rhys the Redeemed fills multiple holes: I wanted another token generator, and the deck often doesn't do much at 3 mana slot except Putrefy; the 6cc ability can be insanely powerful. Rhys also powers Bloom Tender, which provides decent acceleration, and is of course munchable in mid- to late-game. Of the creatures not yet mentioned, I think Sakura is fairly obvious here, as is Essense Warden.
Grave Pact is an awesome card in most environments, but is especially powerful with tokens and the devour creatures. In games vs. other creature heavy decks, I recommend siding in Savra, who can acts as additional Grave Pacts. For more targeted removal there are Bone Splinters in side. Necrogenesis for graveyard hate, and Thoughtpicker Witch to disrupt combo.
Except for the mana base, the above deck is reasonably priced. If you like the deck and can afford the pricier cards, I suggest trying Bitterblossom and Thoughtseize.
I know Extended has been bashed anytime it's brought up. It was losing popularity and people were eager to move to Modern. Perhaps now that we know all the pros and cons of Modern, Extended deserves another shot.
To anyone still skeptical I ask you to consider the following:
1. For any shortcoming expressed about Modern, I argue that Frontier would eventually run into the same issue.
2. For any feature that draws people to Frontier, I argue that Extended also possesses similar positive attributes.
I wholeheartedly agree with all of the above.
I find it amusing I see all these posts from people excited about the size of the card pool and how *this* or *that* isn't in the pool to muck things up, but happy that *this* or *that* favorite gets another chance to shine. It sounds Extended is the perfect solution to these people's wishes. Card pool sizes are comparable, and no group of cards will dominate forever like in Modern.
I have seen posts where people are concerned that Magic cannot support too many formats. There is a valid concern here, but to me Extended seems the right fit. If you have {Vintage, Modern, Frontier, Standard}, then there's three eternal formats of different sizes (with no guarantee people won't tire of Frontier and split the card pool yet again) and one rotating format. If you have {Vintage, Modern, Extended, Standard} you have two eternal and two rotating formats, each of significantly different size. Seems a more balanced way to split the pool of prospective players.
This thread has already discussed blue, but I thought I'd add Nivix Cyclops which would work well with the spell-based removal.
If you splash green we get Reaper of the Wilds, which works well with Master in that chump blocking creatures give you Scry 1. Other fatties are Ghor-Clan Rampager and Polis Crusher, and Polukranos, World Eater.
If you splash white we get Alms Beast, which works well with Master as the potential life gain becomes irrelevant. Scholar of Athreos takes that last point of life. Hundred-Handed One can hold the fort against many deck types when monstrous.
Of course, access to white or green gives additional removal options.
While I miss Eternal Witness, I think Scars could give this casual deck new life because of one card: Tunnel Ignus. Prior to rotation most everyone played Black simply for instant win Ob-Nixilis. Now black isn't needed. I kept the RGW core and added Ignus. I also took out the Avenger. While it is very impressive at racking up the tokens, Emeria Angel does a good job also and is much cheaper for hard-casting. I added singleton Titans and a Nucklavee to recur the WW.
3 Acidic Slime
3 Emeria Angel
2 Farhaven Elf
3 Lotus Cobra
3 Reveillark
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Wall of Omens
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Nucklavee
3 Tunnel Ignus
3 Fertile Ground
4 Trace of Abundance
4 Warp World
Land
8 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Plains
3 Reflecting Pool
3 Arid Mesa
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Wooded Bastion
3 Dauntless Escort
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Path to Exile
3 Day of Judgment
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Elixir of Immortality
Some of the decklists in the thread have the focus more on the singletons hitting the graveyard and are very reliant on Fauna Shaman. I chose a different approach, instead focusing more on the Quillspike/Druid combo. The main advantage is that the combo pieces are meant to be hard cast and do their dirty work on the battlefield. Ooze makes the combo twice as hard to defeat, as the pieces can function from both Battlefield and Graveyard zones.
Fauna Shaman definitely helps get the combo online, and I did put 3 singleton copies of some powerful cards in the deck. The Elder and Assassin are good on their own, but combo with Ooze. The Mosstodon solves another common problem with Quillspike: chump blockers.
4 Necrotic Ooze
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Devoted Druid
4 Quillspike
3 Wickerbough Elder
3 Royal Assassin
3 Sylvan Ranger
2 Thornling
2 Mosstodon
1 Grim Poppet
1 Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet
1 Geth, Lord of the Vault
4 Maelstrom Pulse
Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Twilight Mire
9 Swamp
9 Forest
This one doesn't work as you think it does. The owner, not controller put creature on bottom of their library and then gets a new one off the top. If you tried this you would be giving a (different) creature back to your opponent.
I do think the Thornbite Staff" target="blank">Thornbite Staff and Puca's Mischief" target="blank">Puca's Mischief combos are pretty neat though.
Is this a snide way of saying I should stick with Jund build or did you simply not read my post? I hate packing spells I can't hard-cast.
I'd really love to see the mana package you use to pull WW off on Turn 4. Wall of Roots + both Elves, as well as Fertile Ground + Trace of Abundance? As for the Elemental, are you thinking of Morselhoarder?
Shortly after Zendikar came out I decided to try to make a Warp World deck and I was (mildly) surprised how nearly all of them were Jund because everyone wanted to abuse Ob-Nixilis. I wanted to take a different approach so I took a stab at Naya, which had Emeria Angel, which isn't an auto-win like Ob-Nixilis but it does a fair job generating tokens.
This deck still needs work but I'm pleased with what I have so far.
6 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Arid Mesa
2 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Rugged Prairie
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
2 Wooded Bastion
3 Acidic Slime
3 Emeria Angel
3 Eternal Witness
4 Farhaven Elf
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Reveillark
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Avenger of Zendikar
3 Fertile Ground
4 Trace of Abundance
4 Warp World
A few comments on cards not widely used:
Totally agree on both counts. A better choice would be Martial Coup.
I took a very different approach and attempted to use some seldom used enchantments to my advantage. Glory of Warfare is just sick when you are generating a horde of tokens. Even more sick is Glory paired with Elemental Mastery. Auras are prone for the old 2-for-1 card disadvantage, but the upside is so huge. A lone 1/1 token is 3/1 on your turn with Glory, and can put three 3/1 Elemental tokens into combat.
I know I should have Lightning Helix in here but what card should I take out in place of it? I'm leaning towards Soul Warden, but the life gain has been very helpful in some matches.
5 Mountain
4 Plains
2 Boros Garrison
1 Mistveil Plains
3 Rugged Prairie
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Windbrisk Heights
3 Arid Mesa
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Soul Warden
4 Twilight Drover
4 Elemental Mastery
4 Glory of Warfare
3 Disenchant
3 Path to Exile
3 Martial Coup
4 Spectral Procession
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Dredge can be a powerful mechanic in Highlander. The deck below is what I run in (non-EDH) highlander. It is a dedicated dredge deck. The idea of throwing cards into the grave seemed reckless to me at first, but with all the recursion available, my graveyard turned into a huge asset. The deck recovers well from mass removal, so most of my non-graveyard oriented cards are sweepers.
Perhaps the list can spark some ideas. As an aside, I wouldn't mind trying to convert this to EDH (Teneb is a natural general for this deck) but I'd have to shed 12 cards (probably 7 spells and 5 land). Any suggestions?
1 Acidic Slime
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Brawn
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Eternal Witness
1 Filth
1 Genesis
1 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Golgari Thug
1 Greater Mossdog
1 Hermit Druid
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Karmic Guide
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Magus of the Disk
1 Necroplasm
1 Order of Whiteclay
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reveillark
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Shambling Shell
1 Shriekmaw
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Wall of Reverence
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Windborn Muse
1 Withered Wretch
Enchantment/Artifact (12):
1 Bloodchief Ascension
1 Land Tax
1 Moldervine Cloak
1 Night Soil
1 Oversold Cemetery
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Mesmeric Orb
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Condemn
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Entomb
1 Krosan Grip
1 Mortify
1 Path to Exile
1 Putrefy
1 Return to Dust
1 Shred Memory
1 Sudden Spoiling
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Damnation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Dimir Machinations
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Martial Coup
1 Nightmare Void
1 Raven's Crime
1 Worm Harvest
1 Wrath of God
Planeswalker (1):
1 Liliana Vess
Land (46):
7 Forest
2 Plains
5 Swamp
1 Barren Moor
1 Bayou
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Fetid Heath
1 Godless Shrine
1 Krosan Verge
1 Marsh Flats
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Quicksand
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Tainted Field
1 Tainted Wood
1 Temple Garden
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Twilight Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Vesuva
1 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Teneb, the Harvester
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Kor Haven
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Yavimaya Hollow
Back when Lifeline was Extended legal I played an Arcbound deck that abused the fact that as long as you had one Arcbound creature in play the counters kept adding up. Of course the most important creature in that deck was Arcbound Crusher because it had trample and grew off each Artifact Creature that came back into play. Unless you can remove opponents creatures (or in this case have an uber trampler), the red zone is usually very messy with Lifeline out.
While Standard is certainly going to have the newest creatures, there are a lot of very interesting creatures going back as far as Ravnica block that probably hadn't seen much interaction with Lifeline, and I'm more at ease with Extended so I'm sticking with that format.
2 Sanctum Gargoyle
2 Archon of Justice
3 Gutless Ghoul
3 Nether Traitor
2 Reveillark
3 Thoughtpicker Witch
2 Ghost Council of Orzhova
3 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
2 Withered Wretch
4 Lifeline
3 Mind Stone
4 Unmake
3 Liliana Vess
Land (24)
5 Plains
9 Swamp
4 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
2 Orzhov Basilica
3 Disenchant
2 Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
3 Ravenous Rats
3 Sanctum Guardian
2 Scavenger Drake
1 Thoughtpicker Witch
1 Withered Wretch
3 Bloom Tender
4 Creakwood Liege
3 Essence Warden
2 Mycoloth
3 Nether Traitor
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Skullmulcher
3 Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
2 Rhys the Redeemed
3 Grave Pact
3 Chord of Calling
4 Putrefy
Land (24)
7 Forest
7 Swamp
2 Golgari Rot Farm
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Twilight Mire
2 Bone Splinters
2 Cloudthresher
3 Krosan Grip
2 Necrogenesis
2 Profane Command
2 Savra, Queen of the Golgari
2 Thoughtpicker Witch
The coolest interaction is Endrek Sahr with the Devour creatures Skullmulcher and Mycoloth. Sahr puts thrulls out when the creature card is played, so when the creature comes into play, there are fresh snacks waiting. For Skullmulcher you get an 8/8 and 5 card draw. For Mycoloth, you get a 14/14 with 10 saprolings each upkeep. The count on these key card may seem a bit low, but they all cost 5cc and they were messing the mana curve. Curiously, the solution was a card that nominally costs more: Chord of Calling. However, with token creatures the evoke cost is usually reasonable. Best part about the Chord is that it's an instant. Playing this during combat or end of opponent's turn can really swing the game.
Speaking of token creatures, Creakwood Liege is amazing, churning out 3/3 Wurms every turn and pumping up my evasion minded Nether Traitors (which are conveniently munchable and can still come back later in game).
Rhys the Redeemed fills multiple holes: I wanted another token generator, and the deck often doesn't do much at 3 mana slot except Putrefy; the 6cc ability can be insanely powerful. Rhys also powers Bloom Tender, which provides decent acceleration, and is of course munchable in mid- to late-game. Of the creatures not yet mentioned, I think Sakura is fairly obvious here, as is Essense Warden.
Grave Pact is an awesome card in most environments, but is especially powerful with tokens and the devour creatures. In games vs. other creature heavy decks, I recommend siding in Savra, who can acts as additional Grave Pacts. For more targeted removal there are Bone Splinters in side. Necrogenesis for graveyard hate, and Thoughtpicker Witch to disrupt combo.
Except for the mana base, the above deck is reasonably priced. If you like the deck and can afford the pricier cards, I suggest trying Bitterblossom and Thoughtseize.