Splashing for memoricide just seems to me to be crippling. You're basically using your first 3 turns to play memoricide, not set up/establish a board. But in all honestly, I'm interested in how it works out through testing, since I'm all for ripping threats out of peoples deck.
Not really sure why you think one has to sacrifice board development to play a memoricide. Yeah, on the turn you play it, you're not spending mana on Elves. But the first few turns are often quite normal, and ripping out Titan or Pyroclasm is well worth it.
Someone mentioned the difficulty of playing a turn 1 Duress. I agree that Duress may not be the best card in the 'board, but I don't play it on turn one even when I have the option. Your opponent is always going to try to get two or more elves with the 'clasm, so you can safely play out your first elf and Duress/Memoricide by turn 2 or 3.
I would also like to add that 11 sources of black (3 swamp, 4 catacombs, 4 ranger) has consistently provided early black. Fauna Shaman also fetches black mana; obviously this is totally unreliable in the face of Pyroclasm but sufficient sometimes.
Anyway, I would rather they burn out my Fauna Shaman early out of paranoia than a lord.
Except I play 3 swamps instead of one, and my sideboard is different. In the maindeck I have -2 Warcaller, -1 Monument, +3 Garruk. I'm also running 20 land, but I'm not so ambitious; I don't have Tectonic Edge and I'm running -1 Oran-Rief.
Splashing black has not changed the explosiveness of the deck at all. The maindeck is entirely green; it's just really really important to bring in Memoricide for Primeval Titan, Doom Blade for Linvala, Dragonlord, Baneslayer, WW, or other aggro, and Duress for Pyroclasm/Flashfreeze.
Taking out Treespeakers is common because they're suboptimal against decks with Pyroclasm and Lightning Bolt anyway. I usually take out Garruks against fast aggro (especially if they have fliers, like WW) for Doom Blades.
I'm not really sold on Leyline, since it's been both "okay" and terrible for me. It's a little too reactive; I suppose Baloth would be better.
This guy has 4x Masticore in the board. I'm not sure what he's doing with these. Anyone have an idea?
ok your right with UR, but with valakut and dforce which have an unstable mana base and mostly rely on their lands to win, it might be worth the try. Got this idea from a dredgevine deck who mills a valakut player's library instead of his, and consistently winning the match against valakut at our local store. Ive seen him play and hedron crab eats valakut alive. Im not saying its useful against all decks, it's an ugly sb against eldrazi ramp, but so is jinxed idol. =)
Actually, Elf decks with Idol in the sideboard got 1st at Pennsylvania States and 1st at Iowa States this year. Though if your point is that it isn't boarded in against Eldrazi ramp.. then I agree.
my sideboard :
4 leyline of vitality
3 acidic slime
3 brittle effigy
1 gaea's revenge
and
4 archive trap(surprise!)
Trap work wonders against our hard matchup, when i say hard i mean decks that uses pyroclasm. Decks like valakut ramp, rug force and ur control are devastated with a single trap because of their limited wincons. For other decks, i think we can easily work around them simply by playing smart.
4 sideboard slots to *maybe* mill out their win cons? UR, RUG, and UB run elixir sometimes, and obviously this won't work on any deck that plays Eldrazi.
I don't know if "playing smart" can make up for boarding archive trap into your Elf deck.
Idol can be nice, but I was thinking about trying Summoning Trap. I feel like it would be a great way to maintain tempo, especially on the draw when the counters hurt.
I've been testing this deck a lot, and if I had to play right now in a tournament, this is what I would bring. Obviously my version is no longer mono black; red adds quite a bit.
Siding is difficult with this deck because there isn't much to take out. I've even considered a transformational sideboard.
--Duress is for mana leak/spell pierce as well as opposing discard (which is essentially limited to MBC). Usually take out some Pyroclasms here.
--Shatter is for 1) Mimic Vat and 2) Ratchet Bomb. Again, Pyroclasm leaves.
--Dark Tutelage comes in against control and slow decks. You can take out a Chalice and a Diabolic Tutor.
--Ratchet Bomb is *really* bad in this deck because it cannot normally be used to clear away anything that costs 1 or 2 without Planar Cleansing half your board. The only reason I've included it is because there is no other way to deal with Leyline of Sanctity. What you take out depends on the matchup.
The Comet Storm is in there because sometimes you generate absurd amounts of mana with big Chalices and Key.
There are good arguments for -1 Tutor, +1 Throne, or -1 Burn spell, +1 Throne, or maybe even -1 Tutor, -1 Burn spell, +1 land, +1 Throne. Whatever the change, I'm pretty sure a 4th Throne would be useful. Maybe you cut Comet Storm and a burn spell for 2x Lux Cannon.
Also, the sideboard is obviously wonky (it might be better to forgot Leyline and pray not to see it).
I tested this deck (without mox opal; I'm waiting for the price online to drop a little more) in about 10-15 games.
The first thing I noticed was-- hey, it actually works! That is... it works when you have an ascension sometime in the first 5 turns. Even if you get it late, though, you can turn it on immediately.
I won most games with Ascension, 2 by poison, and 1 by milling. The second thing I noticed was that it's awfully hard to poison someone to death. It takes 2-4 turns (and it costs you most of your artifacts) to do so.
So, not having ascension was still a big problem, even with 4x SiB and two other win cons. I think that I will try Diabolic Tutor (the obvious choice might seem to be Liliana, and I might test her, but this deck has hardly any creatures going to the 'yard and it doesn't remove many creatures, so threatening her ultimate is kinda "meh." It would be fun to threaten Sorin's ultimate but costing 6 is pretty prohibitive).
Another card I might test is Dark Tutelage (instead of Diabolic). Everything is cheap, so, it might fit.
Some other observations:
-Tumble Magnet was quite useful!
-Necrogen Censer, while necessary, was terrible otherwise. Best case scenario, you sac it asap to throne!
-I tried the deck with 4x Chalice (to fill in for Mox, etc), and they obviously generate insane amounts of mana, which is very necessary for the clasp. I don't know if I'll like going down to 3x.
I'm not behind the idea of adding 5 and 6 drops to this deck. Basically, it looks like you've removed major pieces (-4 perilous myr and yet 4 necropede, -2 throne of geth, -1 mox, -3 grindclock) and added some unfocused, expensive stuff (1x lux, diabolic tutor, liliana, sorin, contagion engine).
Seems like Sign in Blood would be good in here, since you really, really need to draw Bloodchief and cheap combo artifacts. Plus, you COULD use it to put the first counter on Bloodchief, if you're feeling ballsy.
I understand the purpose of grindclock but I don't really see 4x. You want grindclock less than Bloodchief; I would remove one.
I'm not sure how I feel about Vapors. I really don't like this card in other decks I try to fit it into. Brittle Effigy might be worth considering, since it turns on Opal early and can be sacrificed to Throne.
I cut a land because I removed Vapors and Lux. Necropede was an artifact with some strengths, but why not add a card that will for-sure give them a counter? I added 3x tumble magnet, 2x brittle effigy, but removed a a grindclock.
This way, if you have either Rats or Bloodchief, you can start proliferating your way to direct victory. And with Sign in Blood, it shouldn't be hard to get one of those started.
This deck also allows you to achieve the trifecta of poison, milling, and life!
I have playtested it, and you clearly have not read the cards, Pseudotropheus .
You do not need the mana for Vat on their endstep.
You don't need mana at all to imprint a guy, then you make the token on your turn, netting you 2 lands, then you attack, netting you 2 more.
In order for them to play around the situation, they would have to just NOT CAST P TITAN, or have mb acidic slime, which I doubt.
Even if they Summoning Trap the Titan in, you would still only need the mana open for Doom Blade, but thanks for the insight.
Okay, so you make your Titan on your turn. The Edges come into play tapped. That's why I said you'd need the mana at the end of their turn-- so two of your edges are untapped! You need to read the cards, not me.
Quote from optimis344 »
Actually, it takes two cards.
They just need to play the Titan, then search for two valakuts or two temples.
If they can't finish you right now, you kill it, and it goes in the vat.
Next turn, you pay 3, and it makes the Titan fetching two Edges. Then you attack fetching the other two. Now if you have two mana left, you just kill their lands and they either can't cast there titan, or burn your face off.
All it takes is a vat out and removal in hand. Which happens all the time, especially against these slow decks that don't play threats to waste removal on.
Well, they have two options:
1) Don't play Titan. Lose.
2) Play Titan. Risk Doom Blade; if you have it, they lose.
This is why Mimic Vat is a great turn three play. It's very defensive, forcing your opponent to delay playing the Titan immediately to build up a Mountain count.
I agree that it can delay them. I love MV against valakut. It's just that the strategy of playing 4x tectonic edge so you can steal THEIR titan to fetch them and stop the combo doesn't work like people think it might. If they trap it at the end of your turn, MV won't help. If they hardcast it, you *must* have 3 untapped plus the removal mana so you can create a mimic during their end step, so that two edges will be untapped, at least. Oh yeah, this is all assuming they didn't just use some KH expeditions to burn you on the spot (but that's what hexmage is for, right?)
WOTC must be insaaaaaaaaaaane
Not really sure why you think one has to sacrifice board development to play a memoricide. Yeah, on the turn you play it, you're not spending mana on Elves. But the first few turns are often quite normal, and ripping out Titan or Pyroclasm is well worth it.
Someone mentioned the difficulty of playing a turn 1 Duress. I agree that Duress may not be the best card in the 'board, but I don't play it on turn one even when I have the option. Your opponent is always going to try to get two or more elves with the 'clasm, so you can safely play out your first elf and Duress/Memoricide by turn 2 or 3.
I would also like to add that 11 sources of black (3 swamp, 4 catacombs, 4 ranger) has consistently provided early black. Fauna Shaman also fetches black mana; obviously this is totally unreliable in the face of Pyroclasm but sufficient sometimes.
Anyway, I would rather they burn out my Fauna Shaman early out of paranoia than a lord.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=719628
4 Copperhorn Scout
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Joraga Treespeaker
4 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Sylvan Ranger
8 Forest
4 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Swamp
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Acidic Slime
4 Doom Blade
1 Gaea's Revenge
4 Memoricide
4 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Tajuru Preserver
Except I play 3 swamps instead of one, and my sideboard is different. In the maindeck I have -2 Warcaller, -1 Monument, +3 Garruk. I'm also running 20 land, but I'm not so ambitious; I don't have Tectonic Edge and I'm running -1 Oran-Rief.
4 Doom Blade
3 Memoricide
4 Duress
4 Leyline of Vitality
Splashing black has not changed the explosiveness of the deck at all. The maindeck is entirely green; it's just really really important to bring in Memoricide for Primeval Titan, Doom Blade for Linvala, Dragonlord, Baneslayer, WW, or other aggro, and Duress for Pyroclasm/Flashfreeze.
Taking out Treespeakers is common because they're suboptimal against decks with Pyroclasm and Lightning Bolt anyway. I usually take out Garruks against fast aggro (especially if they have fliers, like WW) for Doom Blades.
I'm not really sold on Leyline, since it's been both "okay" and terrible for me. It's a little too reactive; I suppose Baloth would be better.
This guy has 4x Masticore in the board. I'm not sure what he's doing with these. Anyone have an idea?
Actually, Elf decks with Idol in the sideboard got 1st at Pennsylvania States and 1st at Iowa States this year. Though if your point is that it isn't boarded in against Eldrazi ramp.. then I agree.
4 sideboard slots to *maybe* mill out their win cons? UR, RUG, and UB run elixir sometimes, and obviously this won't work on any deck that plays Eldrazi.
I don't know if "playing smart" can make up for boarding archive trap into your Elf deck.
Here's my current SB:
3 Naturalize
3 Jinxed Idol
3 Plummet
2 Acidic Slime
Idol can be nice, but I was thinking about trying Summoning Trap. I feel like it would be a great way to maintain tempo, especially on the draw when the counters hurt.
Yeah, it has its own thread.
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
8 Swamp
5 Mountain
Artifacts (18)
3 Throne of Geth
3 Mox Opal
3 Voltaic Key
3 Contagion Clasp
3 Everflowing Chalice
3 Grindclock
4 Bloodchief Ascension
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroclasm
3 Galvanic Blast
1 Comet Storm
4 Sign in Blood
4 Diabolic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
1 Chain Reaction
3 Shatter
2 Dark Tutelage
3 Rachet Bomb
2 Nihil Spellbomb
Siding is difficult with this deck because there isn't much to take out. I've even considered a transformational sideboard.
--Duress is for mana leak/spell pierce as well as opposing discard (which is essentially limited to MBC). Usually take out some Pyroclasms here.
--Shatter is for 1) Mimic Vat and 2) Ratchet Bomb. Again, Pyroclasm leaves.
--Dark Tutelage comes in against control and slow decks. You can take out a Chalice and a Diabolic Tutor.
--Ratchet Bomb is *really* bad in this deck because it cannot normally be used to clear away anything that costs 1 or 2 without Planar Cleansing half your board. The only reason I've included it is because there is no other way to deal with Leyline of Sanctity. What you take out depends on the matchup.
The Comet Storm is in there because sometimes you generate absurd amounts of mana with big Chalices and Key.
There are good arguments for -1 Tutor, +1 Throne, or -1 Burn spell, +1 Throne, or maybe even -1 Tutor, -1 Burn spell, +1 land, +1 Throne. Whatever the change, I'm pretty sure a 4th Throne would be useful. Maybe you cut Comet Storm and a burn spell for 2x Lux Cannon.
Also, the sideboard is obviously wonky (it might be better to forgot Leyline and pray not to see it).
I can't see any of the trigons being playable.
Dark Tutelage was great, though I did have to add in some removal (which I think is needed anyway)
4 Tectonic Edge
15 Swamp
Creatures
4 Ichor Rats
4 Perilous Myr
Spells
4 Throne of Geth
0 Mox Opal
3 Voltaic Key
0 Brittle Effigy
4 Contagion Clasp
4 Grindclock
4 Everflowing Chalice
3 Tumble Magnet
3 Necrogen Censer
4 Bloodchief Ascension
4 Sign in Blood
I tested this deck (without mox opal; I'm waiting for the price online to drop a little more) in about 10-15 games.
The first thing I noticed was-- hey, it actually works! That is... it works when you have an ascension sometime in the first 5 turns. Even if you get it late, though, you can turn it on immediately.
I won most games with Ascension, 2 by poison, and 1 by milling. The second thing I noticed was that it's awfully hard to poison someone to death. It takes 2-4 turns (and it costs you most of your artifacts) to do so.
So, not having ascension was still a big problem, even with 4x SiB and two other win cons. I think that I will try Diabolic Tutor (the obvious choice might seem to be Liliana, and I might test her, but this deck has hardly any creatures going to the 'yard and it doesn't remove many creatures, so threatening her ultimate is kinda "meh." It would be fun to threaten Sorin's ultimate but costing 6 is pretty prohibitive).
Another card I might test is Dark Tutelage (instead of Diabolic). Everything is cheap, so, it might fit.
Some other observations:
-Tumble Magnet was quite useful!
-Necrogen Censer, while necessary, was terrible otherwise. Best case scenario, you sac it asap to throne!
-I tried the deck with 4x Chalice (to fill in for Mox, etc), and they obviously generate insane amounts of mana, which is very necessary for the clasp. I don't know if I'll like going down to 3x.
Plus, it's pretty common to be behind on the board against aggro decks for the first 4-6 turns.
I'm not behind the idea of adding 5 and 6 drops to this deck. Basically, it looks like you've removed major pieces (-4 perilous myr and yet 4 necropede, -2 throne of geth, -1 mox, -3 grindclock) and added some unfocused, expensive stuff (1x lux, diabolic tutor, liliana, sorin, contagion engine).
I could get behind some Consume the Meek maybe.
I understand the purpose of grindclock but I don't really see 4x. You want grindclock less than Bloodchief; I would remove one.
I'm not sure how I feel about Vapors. I really don't like this card in other decks I try to fit it into. Brittle Effigy might be worth considering, since it turns on Opal early and can be sacrificed to Throne.
4 Tectonic Edge
15 Swamp
Creatures
4 Ichor Rats
4 Perilous Myr
Spells
3 Throne of Geth
3 Mox Opal
2 Voltaic Key
2 Brittle Effigy
3 Contagion Clasp
3 Grindclock
3 Everflowing Chalice
3 Tumble Magnet
3 Necrogen Censer
4 Bloodchief Ascension
4 Sign in Blood
This way, if you have either Rats or Bloodchief, you can start proliferating your way to direct victory. And with Sign in Blood, it shouldn't be hard to get one of those started.
This deck also allows you to achieve the trifecta of poison, milling, and life!
Okay, so you make your Titan on your turn. The Edges come into play tapped. That's why I said you'd need the mana at the end of their turn-- so two of your edges are untapped! You need to read the cards, not me.
See above.
I agree that it can delay them. I love MV against valakut. It's just that the strategy of playing 4x tectonic edge so you can steal THEIR titan to fetch them and stop the combo doesn't work like people think it might. If they trap it at the end of your turn, MV won't help. If they hardcast it, you *must* have 3 untapped plus the removal mana so you can create a mimic during their end step, so that two edges will be untapped, at least. Oh yeah, this is all assuming they didn't just use some KH expeditions to burn you on the spot (but that's what hexmage is for, right?)