Blast Zone for sure seems like a shoo-in and would only be hindered my other lands that don't produce color. There is a limit to the number of lands that don't produce color that a 3 color deck can support. And Evolution Sage potentially gives a ton of power to the deck and makes it so Windgrace's -3 only costs 1 (at most). The Sage becomes much better if there are other cards with counters.
Nissa, Who Shakes the World seems reasonable as well. I don't like that her +1 opens up the land to easy destruction but her ultimate eventually protects it. It really comes down to how much effort the ultimate takes to get to.
I plan to have a bunch of other planeswalkers join the cast, since they naturally work well with all of the mass destruction spells that Jund decks always seem to have.
New Nissa probably won't make my list. The +1 is just not good in every way: opens lands up to easier destruction, requires new targets every time. How many Forests are you really gonna have in a 3-color deck, even if you manage to find all the duals? Not to mention that Nissa, Vital Force is incredible.
Karn's Bastion could make the list again if there are enough things to proliferate, and having your commander as one of them might be reason enough. Liliana and Ugin are always good. God-Eternal Bontu could be a decent draw engine if you sac a few lands for profit, but I've found that this deck doesn't lack for draw power when your commander does that very well. Emergence Zone could be a reasonable substitute if you can't find a Winding Canyons.
Just wanted to know if anyone else has been keeping up with this commander now that War of the Spark has come and blessed us with so many fun new spells, and lands! At the very least, Blast Zone and Evolution Sage should be staples, and I counted about a half dozen other possibilities depending on the style of your deck.
Empress Galina since she can steal Legendary permanents. Steal Commanders, Planeswalkers, or anything else Legendary.
Oath of Teferi you can flash this in to blink another permanent you control when needed and get double activation off your Planeswalkers.
Galina is a reasonable idea. The fact that you keep whatever she steals even after she dies is appealing.
Oath of Teferi would be better if I was more dedicated to planeswalkers, but as of this writing I only have 4, and even if I owned a Teferi and a new Ugin (new-gin?) and a DOM Karn, that would still probably not be enough to run this card. Then again, I've been wrong before.
Couple more random thoughts on a few cards:
- Is Weatherlight actually better than something like Sword of Fire and Ice?
- The complete and utter lack of graveyard recursion bothers me, as someone who has made a reputation of abusing the yard in nearly every other deck ever.
- The number of 4-drops feels a bit rough, compared to the lack of threes and fives.
And, without further ado, set review time!
If I missed something, it's likely that it won't ever have flash or is just that unplayable. Or maybe I just overlooked it.
- Karn, the Great Creatpr: I have no desire to grief anyone or pair this with Mycosynth Lattice.
- Ugin, the Ineffable: This is a deck with spells and lands, so Ugin will be good here. Quite possibly the most universally good card we've seen in a long time.
- God-Eternal Oketra: A strong body that makes a lot of other strong bodies. Comparable with Lyra Dawnbringer and a number of other Angel-types.
- Parhelion II: Costs way too much to cast and crew.
- The Wanderer: Situational based on the amount of non-combat damage in your meta. Probably not for me.
- Commence the Endgame: A large, non-creature Mulldrifter variant. Seems like a fine spell to add to the list of "what am I holding up?".
- God-Eternal Kefnet: Decent body, but not nearly enough instants or sorceries to hit on.
- Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor: Not the best card to flash in, can't respond to a spell to make it cost more. Probably a pass.
- Narset, Parter of Veils: Situational based on how many extra draws opponents get. Unlike others, this probably happens enough to be worthwhile. However, the only activated ability is a minus and isn't spectacular.
- Dovin's Veto: Slam-dunk include. I've already mentioned how underrated Negates are, and this is a Negate with lots of upside.
- Teferi, Time Raveler: Large price tag + nearly-irrelevant +1 ability = probably a pass. This deck won't have more than one or two sorceries at one time.
- Dovin, Hand of Control: Another card that doesn't work in response to someone else casting something and has only a subpar negative ability. Pass.
- Firemind Vessel: This card is nearly almost virtually mostly unplayable in this format. I'm sure there's an exception out there somewhere, but for the life of me I can't fathom any deck of any color combination wanting to play this card. Every Signet and Locket and Talisman and Borderpost is better than this. Maybe if it cost 3 or did something else...
- Blast Zone: See Ugin.
- Karn's Bastion: In this case, not enough things that want to be proliferated, so probably best in other places, unless I get a lot more planeswalkers.
I like this thread. All this recent discussion regarding what a MBC deck looks like in 2019 has invigorated me.
... Mindslicer is fantastic, of course, but sometimes you need surgical precision.
Yeah, it's nice to have a reboot of a classic favorite.
Mindslicer is nuts with all the sac outlets you probably already have.
I played Oona a few years ago, and the biggest takeaway from my experience was that she is the most mana-hungry commander I've ever played. First, she costs six mana to bring out, with no protection of any kind. Second, once you do get her out, you'll probably want to stuff as much mana as you can into that really cool activated ability of hers, and your opponents will want to get her off the table as fast as possible. Just a few things to keep in mind when you finally get to bring her out.
Oh boy, this is right in my wheelhouse! I've had a Chainer deck for several years, and I loved it so much that I built a nearly-identical Scarab God deck in a very similar vein.
- You're definitely on the right track with using someone else's graveyard. Few things in this format are as satisfying as watching one opponent nuke another one's graveyard just to keep you from abusing it. Also, few things are as devastating as having multiple people digging up their Bojuka Bogs.
- You're also on the right track of putting lots of sac outlets in. Make sure that the cost to activate them is always zero, or as close to zero as possible so you can use it whenever and however you like.
- Do not underestimate the 3 life lost as part of the cost to activate Chainer. You will often find yourself activating him several times per turn, which adds up very quickly.
- I wouldn't run any of the Rituals. They either last for only one turn (Bubbling Muck), or you have to pay to use them every time (Bog Witch). Either way, that's not very effective.
Well, a lot of my mana rocks can be cashed in for extra cards, and I have almost zero recursion in this deck, so it’s a lot like Crystal Shard in that it’s probably going to be there for some value and not much else. That’s probably also a good reason to run Hanna, Ship’s Navigator.
That's fair. Honing your theme is always a good thing because it helps you narrow down what you want to play. Some follow-up:
- In general, think about what happens when things don't go exactly according to plan. Sometimes you won't have Shalai available when you need it, sometimes you won't assemble your combo pieces, sometimes one of your many opponents will respond to what you're doing, etc.
- What happens when you don't have Aerial Responder and Odric, Lunarch Marshal? What happens if you just have Odric and don't have some other keyword to spread around? I can understand keeping Odric if you have enough other abilities to spread, but the Responder is too underwhelming without help, and you don't run nearly enough tutors to put those fragile pieces together, and even if you do assemble them both you can still get Wrath-ed.
- What happens when you don't draw your Walls until late-game? Aggro rarely a thing in this format, so "early blocker" doesn't really apply. Frankly, any "blocker" feels bad because they can just remove it or get around it.
Always fun to cut up a brand-new list! I'll start with a couple of cuts, since adding new cards is too easy.
- Arcane Lighthouse: This might be odd, but the first thing I thought of when I saw this was that anyone with a Vesuva will copy this and render your commander useless. Plus, do you really need this effect against someone else?
- Temple of the False God: This card has really soured on me as of late. It's so bad if you don't hit five lands, and it's just barely above average if you do hit five lands.
- Aerial Responder: Not good enough by itself, needs a bunch of help to be halfway good.
- Fleecemane Lion: 7 mana for a 4/4 with no evasion? Pass.
- Kitchen Finks: The combo potential is kinda cute, but I don't see a sac outlet to make it go infinite, so you have a small body that gives you a measly 2-4 life.
- Loxodon Smiter: Unless you are guaranteed to play against Nath of the Gilt-Leaf or Neheb, the Worthy, this isn't going to be good.
- Qasali Pridemage: A fine card, but in these colors you can do better. Crush Contraband exiles two targets, Forsake the Worldly exiles and cycles, Acidic Slime can hit those random pesky lands.
- Wall of Blossoms/Wall of Omens: I don't see a bunch of ways to blink/reuse these guys, and your commander doesn't suggest playing a lot of defense, so they don't really feel like a fit.
- Hedron Archive: Another fine card, flexible enough to give you mana early and cash out for two cards later. But, I hate artifact ramp when you can play green non-artifact ramp. Wood Elves, Nature's Lore and Farseek get you duals, Farhaven Elf and Rampant Growth are always solid. Furthermore, none of these options will break the bank. If you must have an artifact, Selesnya Locket is one mana cheaper, which means it falls under the Sun Titan umbrella.
- Always Watching: Not sure this actually fits the theme. It doesn't make counters, and vigilance doesn't really move the needle.
Finally, a couple of random additions that might not get otherwise mentioned:
- Bastion Protector: Get it now before it gets too expensive. It's cheap and effective at protecting Shalai.
- You could probably use a couple creature tutors to make sure you have what you need on time. I know they're pricey, but they're mostly worth the price. If Green Sun's Zenith and Chord of Calling are too pricey, maybe try a Fierce Empath.
- You could also use a few ways to get your creatures back after they die (and they will die, a lot). Karmic Guide is cheap. Eternal Witness is reasonable and basically a requirement for any deck with Forests.
Looks like you have a good start! Hope this helps you out.
Crystal Shard is a kinda weird one at first glance, as you don't have a lot of ETB things to abuse, but I definitely think it's worth a slot in Raff. The main thing it will bounce is Raff himself in response to a board wipe or targeted removal. Normally, having a card to do this on your commander isn't really worth it, but with Raff, it's different thanks to the flash. You're typically keeping up mana for as long as possible. So when a board wipe hits (which from my experience is usually every 2-3 turns, this is EDH after all), you've got 5+ mana available, you can bounce Raff, then replay him EoT, saving on the commander tax. I started running it on a whim as I had one and wanted to see how well this line of thought would work. After a couple of games, I put Erratic Portal in too and started aggressively tutoring them. Keeping Raff around is so important to being able to play the deck properly, and these two artifacts ensure that Raff remains affordable - I've had games where I've cast him half-a-dozen times without ever paying tax. And there's the side effect of forcing your opponents to keep a mana up if they want to do creature based stuff - which also ties very well into Raff's flash grating ability. I've often dropped these after a player has tapped out suiting up their commander and swung at me. If you find he's not dying often, then maybe change it, but I love these cards, and my playgroup have come to hate them.
Raff, is one of the better commanders to run Cataclysmic Gearhulk. Flash made it a great surprise.
Yeah, that card definitely made the cut.
First list is up in the deck list forum. Haven’t played with it yet, but it looks decent, and it’s exactly the kind of thing I love to do in this format.
Sigh...cracked an entire unopened box of Dominaria and got none of the three missing mythics for this deck
At least the maybe board is updated, and I found a few more potential lands to add at some point. Now if only I had time to actually try this deck out...
Wow, lots of great feedback! Thanks to everyone who posted!
Couple main follow-up points:
- First off, I just plain forgot to include Urza's Ruinous Blast when I was typing up the list on my phone, but it's always been there.
- Unfortunately, I have not actually played a real-live game with this list yet, so all of this is pure speculation at this time.
- Finally, I tried to take the same approach to Raff as I did to Yeva: the commander should give as many spells flash as possible. Some spells, like planeswalkers, would benefit by coming in at the end step so that I can untap right away and protect them. Others, like Azami and Darien, would benefit by coming down during inopportune times for the opponent.
Admittedly, I need to take a closer look at a few cards that are just there because they're legends (Ephara, Heliod). Heliod in particular was an inclusion because it was particularly effective on its own in my previous Ojutai deck, even moreso than Ojutai was.
Meteor Golem and In Bolas's Clutches felt good because they could flash in at anytime and take out a wide range of problems. If/when I actually get to play with them, I'll keep an eye on them.
Cloud Cover and Crystal Shard are mostly there for protecting Raff from excessive hate. I don't expect to abuse a ton of ETB creatures, but keeping Raff's casting cost down to a reasonable level seems like a fine idea.
Maybe it's just in my meta, but any Negate effect is extremely underrated. I do have a list of other counters that could easily go in the deck, and I'll update the maybe-board and wish-list shortly.
Thanks again for all the feedback and keep it coming!
I plan to have a bunch of other planeswalkers join the cast, since they naturally work well with all of the mass destruction spells that Jund decks always seem to have.
New Nissa probably won't make my list. The +1 is just not good in every way: opens lands up to easier destruction, requires new targets every time. How many Forests are you really gonna have in a 3-color deck, even if you manage to find all the duals? Not to mention that Nissa, Vital Force is incredible.
Karn's Bastion could make the list again if there are enough things to proliferate, and having your commander as one of them might be reason enough. Liliana and Ugin are always good. God-Eternal Bontu could be a decent draw engine if you sac a few lands for profit, but I've found that this deck doesn't lack for draw power when your commander does that very well. Emergence Zone could be a reasonable substitute if you can't find a Winding Canyons.
Galina is a reasonable idea. The fact that you keep whatever she steals even after she dies is appealing.
Oath of Teferi would be better if I was more dedicated to planeswalkers, but as of this writing I only have 4, and even if I owned a Teferi and a new Ugin (new-gin?) and a DOM Karn, that would still probably not be enough to run this card. Then again, I've been wrong before.
- Is Weatherlight actually better than something like Sword of Fire and Ice?
- The complete and utter lack of graveyard recursion bothers me, as someone who has made a reputation of abusing the yard in nearly every other deck ever.
- The number of 4-drops feels a bit rough, compared to the lack of threes and fives.
And, without further ado, set review time!
- Karn, the Great Creatpr: I have no desire to grief anyone or pair this with Mycosynth Lattice.
- Ugin, the Ineffable: This is a deck with spells and lands, so Ugin will be good here. Quite possibly the most universally good card we've seen in a long time.
- God-Eternal Oketra: A strong body that makes a lot of other strong bodies. Comparable with Lyra Dawnbringer and a number of other Angel-types.
- Parhelion II: Costs way too much to cast and crew.
- The Wanderer: Situational based on the amount of non-combat damage in your meta. Probably not for me.
- Commence the Endgame: A large, non-creature Mulldrifter variant. Seems like a fine spell to add to the list of "what am I holding up?".
- God-Eternal Kefnet: Decent body, but not nearly enough instants or sorceries to hit on.
- Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor: Not the best card to flash in, can't respond to a spell to make it cost more. Probably a pass.
- Narset, Parter of Veils: Situational based on how many extra draws opponents get. Unlike others, this probably happens enough to be worthwhile. However, the only activated ability is a minus and isn't spectacular.
- Dovin's Veto: Slam-dunk include. I've already mentioned how underrated Negates are, and this is a Negate with lots of upside.
- Teferi, Time Raveler: Large price tag + nearly-irrelevant +1 ability = probably a pass. This deck won't have more than one or two sorceries at one time.
- Dovin, Hand of Control: Another card that doesn't work in response to someone else casting something and has only a subpar negative ability. Pass.
- Firemind Vessel: This card is nearly almost virtually mostly unplayable in this format. I'm sure there's an exception out there somewhere, but for the life of me I can't fathom any deck of any color combination wanting to play this card. Every Signet and Locket and Talisman and Borderpost is better than this. Maybe if it cost 3 or did something else...
- Blast Zone: See Ugin.
- Karn's Bastion: In this case, not enough things that want to be proliferated, so probably best in other places, unless I get a lot more planeswalkers.
Yeah, it's nice to have a reboot of a classic favorite.
Mindslicer is nuts with all the sac outlets you probably already have.
- You're definitely on the right track with using someone else's graveyard. Few things in this format are as satisfying as watching one opponent nuke another one's graveyard just to keep you from abusing it. Also, few things are as devastating as having multiple people digging up their Bojuka Bogs.
- You're also on the right track of putting lots of sac outlets in. Make sure that the cost to activate them is always zero, or as close to zero as possible so you can use it whenever and however you like.
- Do not underestimate the 3 life lost as part of the cost to activate Chainer. You will often find yourself activating him several times per turn, which adds up very quickly.
- I wouldn't run any of the Rituals. They either last for only one turn (Bubbling Muck), or you have to pay to use them every time (Bog Witch). Either way, that's not very effective.
- In general, think about what happens when things don't go exactly according to plan. Sometimes you won't have Shalai available when you need it, sometimes you won't assemble your combo pieces, sometimes one of your many opponents will respond to what you're doing, etc.
- What happens when you don't have Aerial Responder and Odric, Lunarch Marshal? What happens if you just have Odric and don't have some other keyword to spread around? I can understand keeping Odric if you have enough other abilities to spread, but the Responder is too underwhelming without help, and you don't run nearly enough tutors to put those fragile pieces together, and even if you do assemble them both you can still get Wrath-ed.
- What happens when you don't draw your Walls until late-game? Aggro rarely a thing in this format, so "early blocker" doesn't really apply. Frankly, any "blocker" feels bad because they can just remove it or get around it.
- Arcane Lighthouse: This might be odd, but the first thing I thought of when I saw this was that anyone with a Vesuva will copy this and render your commander useless. Plus, do you really need this effect against someone else?
- Temple of the False God: This card has really soured on me as of late. It's so bad if you don't hit five lands, and it's just barely above average if you do hit five lands.
- Aerial Responder: Not good enough by itself, needs a bunch of help to be halfway good.
- Fleecemane Lion: 7 mana for a 4/4 with no evasion? Pass.
- Kitchen Finks: The combo potential is kinda cute, but I don't see a sac outlet to make it go infinite, so you have a small body that gives you a measly 2-4 life.
- Loxodon Smiter: Unless you are guaranteed to play against Nath of the Gilt-Leaf or Neheb, the Worthy, this isn't going to be good.
- Qasali Pridemage: A fine card, but in these colors you can do better. Crush Contraband exiles two targets, Forsake the Worldly exiles and cycles, Acidic Slime can hit those random pesky lands.
- Wall of Blossoms/Wall of Omens: I don't see a bunch of ways to blink/reuse these guys, and your commander doesn't suggest playing a lot of defense, so they don't really feel like a fit.
- Hedron Archive: Another fine card, flexible enough to give you mana early and cash out for two cards later. But, I hate artifact ramp when you can play green non-artifact ramp. Wood Elves, Nature's Lore and Farseek get you duals, Farhaven Elf and Rampant Growth are always solid. Furthermore, none of these options will break the bank. If you must have an artifact, Selesnya Locket is one mana cheaper, which means it falls under the Sun Titan umbrella.
- Always Watching: Not sure this actually fits the theme. It doesn't make counters, and vigilance doesn't really move the needle.
Finally, a couple of random additions that might not get otherwise mentioned:
- Bastion Protector: Get it now before it gets too expensive. It's cheap and effective at protecting Shalai.
- You could probably use a couple creature tutors to make sure you have what you need on time. I know they're pricey, but they're mostly worth the price. If Green Sun's Zenith and Chord of Calling are too pricey, maybe try a Fierce Empath.
- You could also use a few ways to get your creatures back after they die (and they will die, a lot). Karmic Guide is cheap. Eternal Witness is reasonable and basically a requirement for any deck with Forests.
Looks like you have a good start! Hope this helps you out.
This is spot-on. Can't say it any better.
EDIT: Maybe it's the fact that I have too many four drops, or maybe the fit just isn't there, but I'm gonna make the following change:
- Ephara, God of the Polis -> Blackblade Reforged
- Heliod, God of the Sun -> Mirage Mirror
Small aside: how many artifacts would you need to have in order to make Academy Ruins worthwhile?
Yeah, that card definitely made the cut.
First list is up in the deck list forum. Haven’t played with it yet, but it looks decent, and it’s exactly the kind of thing I love to do in this format.
At least the maybe board is updated, and I found a few more potential lands to add at some point. Now if only I had time to actually try this deck out...
Couple main follow-up points:
- First off, I just plain forgot to include Urza's Ruinous Blast when I was typing up the list on my phone, but it's always been there.
- Unfortunately, I have not actually played a real-live game with this list yet, so all of this is pure speculation at this time.
- Finally, I tried to take the same approach to Raff as I did to Yeva: the commander should give as many spells flash as possible. Some spells, like planeswalkers, would benefit by coming in at the end step so that I can untap right away and protect them. Others, like Azami and Darien, would benefit by coming down during inopportune times for the opponent.
Admittedly, I need to take a closer look at a few cards that are just there because they're legends (Ephara, Heliod). Heliod in particular was an inclusion because it was particularly effective on its own in my previous Ojutai deck, even moreso than Ojutai was.
Meteor Golem and In Bolas's Clutches felt good because they could flash in at anytime and take out a wide range of problems. If/when I actually get to play with them, I'll keep an eye on them.
Cloud Cover and Crystal Shard are mostly there for protecting Raff from excessive hate. I don't expect to abuse a ton of ETB creatures, but keeping Raff's casting cost down to a reasonable level seems like a fine idea.
Maybe it's just in my meta, but any Negate effect is extremely underrated. I do have a list of other counters that could easily go in the deck, and I'll update the maybe-board and wish-list shortly.
Thanks again for all the feedback and keep it coming!