Yeah I think 2 BB is a solid number doe this list. I added two back in and do not plan to take them out again. I also really liked Arashin Cleric against RDW. Really helped me recover when I had it. Almost want a third in my board.
On Radiant Fountain - I dropped the two fountains and added in an island and a dismal backwater. I'm finding more and more that I'm happy to take a tapped land if its getting me the colors I need. Nearly evertime I've had it in my opening hand it would not be keepable with a radiant fountain. I'm sticking with it for now.
What did you cut for the BB, ultimate price?
I basically cut the one Ashiok I was running and one ultimate price. Three ultimate price feels like too many if Abzan aggro is in your meta at all. Its pretty terrible against it and can really cost you the match IMO.
Yeah I think 2 BB is a solid number doe this list. I added two back in and do not plan to take them out again. I also really liked Arashin Cleric against RDW. Really helped me recover when I had it. Almost want a third in my board.
On Radiant Fountain - I dropped the two fountains and added in an island and a dismal backwater. I'm finding more and more that I'm happy to take a tapped land if its getting me the colors I need. Nearly evertime I've had it in my opening hand it would not be keepable with a radiant fountain. I'm sticking with it for now.
After a crushing defeat last night, partially due to the list and partially due to my inexperience with it, I am reworking the list. Here is my revision:
Here are my lessons learned:
- Don't get greedy with the mana base. I think Soorani was wrong when he said the list can support two radiant fountains. You need UU for everything all the time and its so annoying!! The mana base is shaky no matter what anyone says, there's just too much UU and BB and now W. I'm not* saying its a reason not to run the deck, but something to be mindful of.
- 2 Narsets is the right number. I had three and I got clogged up with them all the time. You really only want to play her if you're trying to draw attacks for a turn and know you can wipe later, or if you already have control established.
- I tried Ashiok and never played it, despite being in my hand a number of times. I just always wanted something better.
- Arashin cleric was clutch out of the board
- Encase in ice is the real deal against Abzan.
- I want bile blight back...
Overall, there were times that I could see the power and the synergy of the deck. I think my lack of experienced combo with some poor deceits decisions made it clunky. I'm going to work on smoothing these issues out.
Well, I'm not running the full 4 dragons so I'm nervous running all 4 scorns. The singleton thoughtseize is filling the slot for that missing scorn in that, it helps take care of an early threat similar to what scorn does.
The narset/ashiok split I've gone back and forth on. I think ashiok is really good against all of the aggro/mid range out there which is why I pushed two in and I'm worried about getting clogged up with Narset. I see your point though and may give that a try.
Command is just another counterspell that synergizes well with cleric and stratus dancer in the board. Stratus dancer is basically just another negate for me. I also like the lifegain opportunity off command. Perhaps you're right though. Part of me just really wants to test command!
Yeah, I kind of agree, but the WW can be a bit of a strain on the mana in a straight esper control deck. Perhaps in this "rocks" deck, it would be less of an issue. Maybe a split is appropriate.
I agree with rujasu. Actually a neat deck idea. I think most or all of the archangels can be cut as well. If you play the 8 esper rocks I think that will be sufficient. Needs dig and counter magic for sure. Ugin should stay as a 1-2 of. I would just run 4 Crux. Really neat idea though, let us know how it goes.
I think Volcanic Vision could really fit nicely into this deck. Could be an amazing sweeper. A copy or two of Mindswipe may also fit nicely? (or I just really like that card). I would likely include some caryatid in this list. Other cards that come to mind are Draconic Roar (better than strike possibly)and maybe even Xenagos, the Reveler if you want to go down a more tapout/walker control.
I assume everyone has seen the Abzan Control lists with the Fleecemane Lion SB tech? That should really help the UB control MU I was lamenting about a page or two back. I had been going a similar direction with deathdealers but Fleeceman Lion is getting brought in against stuff like R/W as well which is pretty cool.
Does anyone else playing a control build feel like game 1 we are at a disadvantage to UB control based on the MB? I played this matchup a few times over the weekend and can never win game 1. Perhaps I am playing poorly but it just feels like the table is tilted their way throughout game 1. Post-sideboard I feel much more comfortable. Anyone else had a similar experience?
R1: Janky Abzan Aggro 2-0 (1-0): Running a weird Abzan Aggro list with a couple random card choices. Seemed like he was new, pretty painless.
R2: BW Warriors 2-1 (2-0): He got there game 1 with the nuts draw but was mostly underwhelming in the next two.
R3: Soulflayer Combo 1-1-1 (2-0-1): These games were just pretty wild as soul flayer is kinda crazy. G1 he got some of the nuts but I had lots of board wipes. G2 I misplayed insanely bad and lost the game because of it (probably would of had it otherwise). Went to time immediately in game 3.
R4: Temur Aggro 0-2 (2-1-1): G1 I mulliganed to 6 and kept an all land hand (bunch of scry lands though) and just kept drawing lands while he stomped me. G2 I drew a bunch of thought seize and he just had all kinds of gas. In hindsight I think I sideboard pretty bad but I really wasn't sure what to keep/get rid of. I felt like thought seize might be okay but drawing 3 was not.
Summary: Still pretty happy with the list despite the poor finish. I think if I just played better/sb better it would have gone well. I'm still working on how to SB right with this deck. More and more it feels like the SB for this deck is just crucial to success. You need to have a solid plan going into each major archetype MU. Any Sbing help is appreciated, particularly against Abzan aggro and Temur aggro. I've been waffling on how to side these games.
Anyone have any advice for Sbing with the Musser list? Mostly I'm wondering when Tasigur/Planeswalkers are best to bring in. I'm thinking control for sure. Any others?
I'm trying to figure it out myself. I was hoping to share ideas.
I'm running:
Please let me know of possible improvements to this plan.
This seems pretty sensible. The critique I would consider is not dropping all of the bile blights. As a Temur player, Blight hits shaman, pheonix (both), yasoya, heir of the wilds, and boon satyr even after a +1/+1 counter from the shaman. Even hits multiple pheonix if they res a couple during combat. Really, the only things it doesn't hit are stormbreath and knuckleblade. I may consider a mix of bile blight and drown in sorrow? This comes from absolutely no experience with this MU but I know blight can suck if played correctly against temur.
Side note: How is everyone likely the 1-of Liliana Vess in the control build? She can be great but also a bit passive which makes me a little skeptical.
Anyone have any advice for Sbing with the Musser list? Mostly I'm wondering when Tasigur/Planeswalkers are best to bring in. I'm thinking control for sure. Any others?
I basically cut the one Ashiok I was running and one ultimate price. Three ultimate price feels like too many if Abzan aggro is in your meta at all. Its pretty terrible against it and can really cost you the match IMO.
On Radiant Fountain - I dropped the two fountains and added in an island and a dismal backwater. I'm finding more and more that I'm happy to take a tapped land if its getting me the colors I need. Nearly evertime I've had it in my opening hand it would not be keepable with a radiant fountain. I'm sticking with it for now.
After a crushing defeat last night, partially due to the list and partially due to my inexperience with it, I am reworking the list. Here is my revision:
2x Narset Transcendent
Creatures: 4
2x Silumgar, the drifting death
2x Dragonlord Ojutai
Spells: 26
4x Hero's Downfall
2x Ultimate Price
2x Bile Blight
4x Silumgar's Scorn
2x Utter End
1x Ojutai's Command
4x Disslove
3x Anticipate
4x Dig Through Time
3x Crux of Fate
4x Temple of Silence
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Temple of Enlightenment
1x Caves of Koilos
4x Polluted Delta
5x Island
3x Swamp
1x Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4x Encase in ice
4x Drown in sorrow
1x Stratus Dancer
2x Arashin Cleric
2x Negate
1x Pearl lake ancient
1x Dragonlord Silumgar
Here are my lessons learned:
- Don't get greedy with the mana base. I think Soorani was wrong when he said the list can support two radiant fountains. You need UU for everything all the time and its so annoying!! The mana base is shaky no matter what anyone says, there's just too much UU and BB and now W. I'm not* saying its a reason not to run the deck, but something to be mindful of.
- 2 Narsets is the right number. I had three and I got clogged up with them all the time. You really only want to play her if you're trying to draw attacks for a turn and know you can wipe later, or if you already have control established.
- I tried Ashiok and never played it, despite being in my hand a number of times. I just always wanted something better.
- Arashin cleric was clutch out of the board
- Encase in ice is the real deal against Abzan.
- I want bile blight back...
Overall, there were times that I could see the power and the synergy of the deck. I think my lack of experienced combo with some poor deceits decisions made it clunky. I'm going to work on smoothing these issues out.
The narset/ashiok split I've gone back and forth on. I think ashiok is really good against all of the aggro/mid range out there which is why I pushed two in and I'm worried about getting clogged up with Narset. I see your point though and may give that a try.
Command is just another counterspell that synergizes well with cleric and stratus dancer in the board. Stratus dancer is basically just another negate for me. I also like the lifegain opportunity off command. Perhaps you're right though. Part of me just really wants to test command!
Thanks for the feedback!
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Narset Transcendent
Creatures: 3
1x Silumgar, the drifting death
2x Dragonlord Ojutai
Spells: 27
4x Hero's Downfall
2x Ultimate Price
1x Thoughtseize
3x Silumgar's Scorn
2x Utter End
4x Disslove
1x Ojutai's Command
3x Anticipate
4x Dig Through Time
3x Crux of Fate
4x Temple of Silence
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Temple of Enlightenment
1x Caves of Koilos
3x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
4x Island
3x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4x Encase in ice
4x Drown in sorrow
1x Stratus Dancer
2x Arashin Cleric
2x Negate
1x Pearl lake ancient
1x Dragonlord Silumgar
Thoughts?
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3x Narset Transcendent
Creatures: 3
2x Silumgar, the drifting death
1x Dragonlord Ojutai
Spells: 24
4x Hero's Downfall
3x Ultimate Price
3x Silumgar's Scorn
2x Utter End
3x Disslove
3x Anticipate
4x Dig Through Time
3x Crux of Fate
4x Temple of Silence
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Temple of Enlightenment
1x Caves of Koilos
3x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
4x Island
3x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4x Encase in ice
4x Drown in sorrow
1x Stratus Dancer
1x Virulent Plague
2x Negate
1x Pearl lake ancient
1x Dragonlord Silumgar
1x Thoughtseize
Creatures - 5
4 Sylvan Carytid
1 Stormbreath Dragon
Planeswalkers - 6
3 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Outpost Siege
Other Cards - 22
4 Anticipate
4 Dig Through Time
3 Roast
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Dissolve
1 Mindswipe
3 Volcanic Vision
1 Perilous Vault
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
1 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Abzan Charm
2 Read the Bones
1 Utter End
2 End Hostilities
Planeswalkers
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Malady
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
2 Llanowar Wastes
3 Caves of Koilos
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bile Blight
1 Utter End
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Drown in Sorrow
1 Read the Bones
1 Rakshasa Deathdealer
1 Mastery of the Unseen
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Liliana Vess
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
R1: Janky Abzan Aggro 2-0 (1-0): Running a weird Abzan Aggro list with a couple random card choices. Seemed like he was new, pretty painless.
R2: BW Warriors 2-1 (2-0): He got there game 1 with the nuts draw but was mostly underwhelming in the next two.
R3: Soulflayer Combo 1-1-1 (2-0-1): These games were just pretty wild as soul flayer is kinda crazy. G1 he got some of the nuts but I had lots of board wipes. G2 I misplayed insanely bad and lost the game because of it (probably would of had it otherwise). Went to time immediately in game 3.
R4: Temur Aggro 0-2 (2-1-1): G1 I mulliganed to 6 and kept an all land hand (bunch of scry lands though) and just kept drawing lands while he stomped me. G2 I drew a bunch of thought seize and he just had all kinds of gas. In hindsight I think I sideboard pretty bad but I really wasn't sure what to keep/get rid of. I felt like thought seize might be okay but drawing 3 was not.
Summary: Still pretty happy with the list despite the poor finish. I think if I just played better/sb better it would have gone well. I'm still working on how to SB right with this deck. More and more it feels like the SB for this deck is just crucial to success. You need to have a solid plan going into each major archetype MU. Any Sbing help is appreciated, particularly against Abzan aggro and Temur aggro. I've been waffling on how to side these games.
This seems pretty sensible. The critique I would consider is not dropping all of the bile blights. As a Temur player, Blight hits shaman, pheonix (both), yasoya, heir of the wilds, and boon satyr even after a +1/+1 counter from the shaman. Even hits multiple pheonix if they res a couple during combat. Really, the only things it doesn't hit are stormbreath and knuckleblade. I may consider a mix of bile blight and drown in sorrow? This comes from absolutely no experience with this MU but I know blight can suck if played correctly against temur.
Side note: How is everyone likely the 1-of Liliana Vess in the control build? She can be great but also a bit passive which makes me a little skeptical.