Well, lets say we add in blue as a splash, can anyone think of any good benefits for the color besides the available counterspells, jace, and sphinx of jwar isle? it seems like it would have some nice potential
This came out pretty childish-like of a response, how about we keep on topic and just keep our posts with constructive responses.
He never mentioned about running blue, i mentioned on a previous note i wish we could run a 3rd color, but manabase then becomes an issue.
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Speaking of which, what are people's thoughts on considering a small splash for blue? anyone think it would heavily distort things? With access to birds and cobra, as well as the fetches and the manland?
while this may be true, the smallest number of potential creature sources is still over 20. Running 4 vampiric tutors is just stupid good, and basically makes your deck into a 56 card deck. So yea, some of them have excessive spells, but still over 1/3 of their cards result in some sort of creature. Call me dogmatic if you want, what I am trying to get across is that the cards that people are choosing are good cards, but they don't have the crazy utility of the past. This means that you need more creatures since the creatures of the past were far more versatile and served a greater purpose. Now, we have crazy power creep creatures that want to smash face. We don't have the advantage of amazing graveyard manipulation of the past, so we need to use what we have.
I can whole-heartily agree with this statement. Yes the game has drastically changed with its power creep, so now we have to look at packing in stronger beaters that are limited in what they do.
I think that trying to go so hard for discard is dangerous because of the way the game has changed. Look at control for instance. It's not about dealing with your opponent's stuff anymore, its about playing the most powerful spells you can (you still have to deal with your opponent, but it is far less reactive). The trend has been to go towards pro-active spells instead of reactive ones. This means that more and more of your opponents spells are going to be able to significantly affect the board position. Because of this you want as many cards as you can to be able to do that.
I can also agree to this, it really does seem like the game has become who can pull horse☺☺☺☺ cascades or drop fatties/bombs faster. Whether it be a back to back baneslayer or jace v2.0. However I feel that the power behind discard currently in the meta is alot trickier to get by with except it absolutely can demolish opponents game plans and stop them from recovering completely or recovering faster. Essentially your providing yourself CA through wrecking their own hand and plays. U/W taps out for mindspring, and you follow through with a tapout for mind shatter, not that i want to start doing the whole scenario crap thing, but listing an example.
While i see your point of the meta shifting to being more pro-active than re-active i feel that there is a good balance of both needing to be applied, with having access to cards like Consuming Vapors, being reactive nudges you a little forward the following turn as they are stuck avoiding dropping another creature.
In terms of vengevine, well, you have to be able to build around it a little (not as much as you would think). Putting him towards the top of your curve makes it easier to cast more than one creature a turn. Adding a few momentous falls means that you can drop vengevine and swing, and if they don't deal with it on their turn, untap, and sac it in response to them trying to deal with it on your turn netting you 4 cards over your opponent, and likely 2 creature spells to net you a 5th. Having 25 or so creatures in the deck is not much to ask. Yes, the past decks may not have had 25 creature spells, but they definitely had over 20 creature sources. The point is that you need to be able to beat down your opponent with larger threats, and you need to have synergy in the deck at the same time. If having more than 1/3 of your deck be creatures gives you synergy, why pass that up?
I'll pass that up because i chose not to play a 25 creature list, if i wanted to play a deck that ran that many creatures, I'd rather just play boss naya or any aggro deck for that matter. At this point the arguement is just a matter of opinion and playstyle. I honestly could not flag a deck running 25 creatures as a rock deck. IT is flat out an aggressive deck, small beaters, curving out to mid-range creatures that can recurr. Sure you have the synergy between momentus fall at this point and applying more creatures as a board position, but can you honestly tell me that its not an aggro deck at this point with a tech of vengevine and momentus fall?
And if their is a draw spell that relies on you having creatures out, why would you want to run less than 20 creature sources? I think if you want some discard and removal, great, but remember that discard is dead late game, and if you don't draw the creatures to end it before the late game, you won't be able to out topdeck your opponents who have crazy CA and 0 dead draws like jund, UW control, mythic, etc.
You're right, but its a price you pay for consistency in being able to ensure you are disrupting your opponents plays and position. I'm also not saying that you have to run a lot of it, but there are also a pile of cards we can sift through to find that correct balance of dead and playable to make the deck consistent. Sure your hippie might be a crap draw late-game, but if you have lets say a collar on the board, or a sledge (for whatever reason) things are totally different. By itself hippie is great, its a problem, and by adding options in your 75 you can keep it that way or swap it out for lets say...Vampire nighthawk.
In terms of drana, well, w/e. She might be good, but I am not the biggest fan. Maybe I will be after further testing, but so far she has never survived more than a turn or 2. She seems good against random creature decks and scrub decks, but very useless against UW, UWR, Mythic, polymorph, RDW, grixis, and every other control deck/uber aggro deck. Control simply kills her, and aggro kills you before she comes online.
Well that's what playtesting is for. She may not be suitable in a build you may be running, but have you tried playing someone else's rock deck that runs her to see how much your opinion changes?
Duress vs. inquisition of kozilek seems like an absolute meta call but it seems like both should be in the 75. Mind shatter is stupid good, and is meta whether it should be main or board.
totally agree. I'm still trying to find the correct balance, but those 3 cards should be heavily considered in MD or side.
Momentous fall seems like its mainboard as at least a 2 of, but I was less than thrilled with it as a 4 of. I think 4 is too much except for post board against control. I don't know why you wouldn't run pulse as a 4 of, and some other form of removal such as consuming vapors seems viable if you have large numbers of creature decks or control decks running shrouded guys.
I think keeping momentus fall at a 2 is all you need. Going 3 or 4 on the card seems kinda meh. Again, i can it as a 4 of running in a creature heavy deck (23+)- but personally at most i would run 2 or 3, especially since in those colors the 4 slots fill up rather fast.
By the way, in terms of graveyard hate, I would recommend suffer the past. Its amazing. Its basically drain life accept better. late game, its a bomb that kills your opponent. Mid game, it rids you of a couple vengevines/bloodghasts/hell's thunders/lands while having 8-10 point life swings. I think 2 in the board is pretty insane (I would probably run a single bojuka bog in the main for random hate game 1.
Its an interesting card, and worth testing - i can agree. Right now the hate i'm running is Bog, relic of progenitus, and haunting echoes (in regards to testing with).
In terms of creatures, it seems that most people agree that leech and birds should be in the main. Cobra is a great way to suck up bolts and other removal early game as well as allow you to quickly demolish your opponents hand with mind shatter if they don't. Hippi is great when dropped turn 2, but not really any other time during the game. In the current meta, turn 6 or 8 hippy is pretty pathetic (almost as bad as birds or cobra).
Agreed on birds, however i would love to find a consistent number between running birds and/or cobra in the deck. Yes hippy is pretty sub=par late game, but its better than either birds or cobra.
What is all this stuff about control nonsense? Rock is supposed to play very efficient creatures, a few removal spells, maybe a couple hand control spells, and thats basically it. Do you remember the rock decks from the last standard?
This deck has 21 creatures plus bitterblossom. basically 25, profane command often returned creatures, and functioned as removal. The top of the curve is shriekmaw which was often evoked anyways, and it really is more of an aggro deck, even if its not an early aggro. But it most certainly is not control. Saying that rock shouldn't play 25 creatures is just wrong. This deck basically has that with bitterblossom, and after sideboard, it will often have more with finks, cloudthresher, and colossus.
Okay, now when i say control, I just mean hand control. Essentially i can agree with your definition of rock to an extent. The archetype is a tool box, it runs efficient creatures and ways to deal with situations as they may come.
we are looking anywhere from 14-24 creatures. Neither side is right or wrong, it simply just varies on your list and opinions. If you choose to take a more aggressive route and run 25 creatures, then fine - if it works, it works for you, ya know? Personally I would love to get a balance between creatures and non creatures while running 3 colors (preferably B/G/u or B/G/r) but that is rough on the manabase. My personal focus at this point with my rock deck is to see rock's power within just B/G, simply because i feel like i might as well be playing Junk if i splash white, and if i splash red i might as well play Jund.
Here's my current list that I recently top 8 (8th place) in a 33 man tournament.
Yes i'm aware its a bit odd with the card counts in board and side, but right now its still developing and so far so good.
At least this gives you an idea of what i'm considering for the archetype, again i'm not saying its what it should be, but its what i am enjoying playing and its winning.
Btw, the reason i placed 8th in top 8 cuts is because i forgot to exile a path to exile from his deck (he was playing Devastating Bushwacker boros). Essentially i removed all his fetchlands, all of his creatures except for goblin guides and ranger of eos,as well as some removal he was running.
Due to that path to exile he drew he removed my persecutor and lost the game as he proceeded to draw business and regain board position slowly.
Either way lesson learned, and another reason why i want to keep haunting echoes main or side. Its out of nowhere and can be devastating in this meta, especially with aggro decks being a top competitor.
Drana is a fantastic beater and it has evasion - flying (unlike master), ontop of being able to remove non-shroud creatures.
Pros: Drana can fly, she can essentially kill creature and/or pump herself, so almost like a black thornling in regards to its damage output. She is also an out for abyssal persecutor.
Cons: 4/4, costs 5 to play, legendary.
I also totally agree with sadams, vengevine requires to be played around with for it to be effective 100% of the time. It requires a large creature base in the deck. Like I've mentioned before, at that point you are playing a heavy aggro deck instead of mid-range control. If anything i would consider it as sideboard material to drop a fast beater to deal with jace 2.0, but besides that i don't really see a spot for it currently.
Honestly i would much rather just run white knight. Yeah i know its double W, but it deals with Bloodbraid, leech, B/R manland (some builds run it). The first strike is the only difference besides the double white cc, but that's my imo. Maybe just try out the outlander for a little bit? my build does not have any white in it so i can't give you any personal testing experience with it.
[color=blue]
Getting tripple green turn 2-3 is not hard at all. You have birds and cobra, as well as all the green sources. 2/3 of the lands in the deck (16) produce green. That is plenty to be able to get GGG on turn 3-4. Persecutor is a great card, but I don't want to have to run garbage in the deck to accomadate 1 good card. Fleshbag, is absolutely terrible, and consuming vapors lowers the beater count. Momentous fall is only a 3 of, and upping that number still wont garantee that I can get rid of him consistently.
Okay, well to be honest at this point I can only agree to disagree regarding leatherback baloth as a choice. With your counter-argument we are speaking of having 8 slots dedicated to ramp (birds and cobra), however what other reasoning is there for that amount of ramp to be used? What strategy/cards are you expecting to drop down if you dont have a baloth in hand?
Another thing that concerns me with running that amount of ramp is the increase in top decking a birds and/or cobra late game, in other words a dead card normally. Yes, i can also agree its unfortunate that you have to rely on removal for abyssal, but there has not been a time where i am ever disappointed in drawing/playing him. The removal options that we have doesn't necessarily hurt or become useless, vapors alone is a fantastic card which only downside is that its a sorcery speed removal, and while fleshbag is "sub-par" it still acts as a poor man's malikir gatekeeper. I'm not stating that it should be played, but from playtesting with the card i feel he provides an alternate removal when dealing with U/W.
Mul Daya Channelers is a great card, test it. Someone beat me down with it during the GP because they kept using fetches to put a creature on top.
I have tested it, its a fun card and has the potential to be a threat as a beater- i however simply dont feel it contributes anything to the archetype. If your goal if to either beat face and/or disrupt, why play a card that has a chance at being a 5/5 or a 2/2 that doesn't do much; why not just play a consistent beater in that slot instead? Again the question arises what is the ramp for? There is also that small thing of you having to reveal the top card, your opponents then have the advantage of knowing what is coming ahead, and a greater opportunity to counter-act more efficiently. "Duress coming up? I guess i'll drop this jace now and take my chances, and keep mana ready for a pulse down the road." [/quote]
Master is a good card. I am not arguing that. But it is yet another 4 drop that doesn't seem to do anything like 90% of the time. Its a creature that more often than not can't attack, and just sits there and waits to mass wolves to start killing stuff. Its very slow and unreliable. It rarely has ever won me any games. Its good if you can get collar out early, but I don't run collar, and we don't have access to mystic.
I agree with about 90% of this statement, I have also play tested with it and came to a similar conclusion. While he generally sits there, you are still building board position each turn you take with him. Sure i totally agree it is a little bit slow, and its not a Wolf Briar Elemental (which i wish i could find room to play with), but the card itself is consistent with "Deal with me soon or this game will end faster".
Vengevine is an amazing card, and I can't believe you would consider not running it main. seems like a bad idea. Late game you can wait till you draw a couple creatures and then bring back multiple vengevines and basically say, Oops, I win.
You are absolutely right, i believe Vengevine is an amazing card but you answered why i dont run it main. I have to have 2 available creatures to play that turn to make vengevines amazing. So essentially i have to build my deck slightly around him (run more cheap creatures) for him to do his job to the extent that he was designed for.
Thornling is good against jund, but produces no card advantage, and doesn't really do much of anything against UW, or anything running PtE. Ant Queen should always be CA and a small army of beaters. Run thornling in the side if you want. I mean, you can run it main, but I prefer ant queen.
As far as i know Thornling does do quite a bit against UW. It tells them, their DOJ's are dead, their martial coups now became blockers, jace needs to come down to bounce it up, then hope the opponent does not have enough mana to give it haste the following turn and/or: Trample, indestructibility. He screams "I am a problem, deal with me fast, hope you find a PTE or O-ring soon." Yes ant queen has the ability of producing mass amount of beaters if she untaps, but for the most part she can't deal with the amount of removal that exists in this format currently due to her lack of evasion.
BTW, arguments like "i can't imagine" are not arguments. You might as well say "I can't imagine being able to play mind shatter for 3 on turn 3, so you shouldn't run it." Comments like this are unhelpful and erroneous.
My apologies for keeping it short earlier, i was pressed for time and unable to collect my words as i have today.
I also would like to note, that we obviously have the extremes of what rock should be played as in this current meta, and that's fine, i simply wanted to clarify your reasonings behind this choice and choice of cards for said deck.
Personally I can't understand why you chose the beaters that you listed. While i appreciate the feedback you've provided to this thread I was wondering if you can provide more information regarding your creature choices.
1 Leatherback Baloth - Triple green? Honestly i can't imagine being able to cast him consistently on turn 2 or 3 for that matter.
2 Putrid Leech- great card
3 Abyssal Persecutor- fantastic beater, sure he requires removal, but with access to momentus fall, consuming vapors, fleshbag marauder, why not.
4 Muldaya Channelers- unfortunately she is also inconsistent with being a beater, even with fetches.
5 Vengevine- great card, possible side board since it requires the deck to be creature heavy or recursion heavy to make good use out of him.
6 Master of the Wild Hunt- great card, fantastic for recovering from a DoJ
7 Ant queen- she's a fun a card, but honestly why not Thornling, he so much better. He alone wins games, especially alongside abyssal Persecutor.
kinda off the wall but at game day i traded a non-foil rafiq for a foil drana and knowing well that he got the better end of the trade monetarily speaking and i was still happy with the trade. makes me wanna sleeve a rock up again.
that's cool. I am also unsure why you traded off a ~10 dollar card for a 1 dollar one. (Drana comes in a starter deck foil)
As for identity crisis...um no thanks. I barely am considering it for the sideboard. Mind you i'm running a B/G deck, so i'd rather just run haunting echoes to destroy dredge any chance of winning. I'm already running discard, no need to fill my side or MD with expensive dead cards. If i was still running my B/W/R control deck, i would totally run that card in side...but this being rock, you are already disrupting their hand and board. I guess what i'm trying to say is.
- I'm already running discard: Mind shatter, hippies, duress, inquisition.
- there are cheaper ways to deal with a graveyard: Haunting Echoes, Necrogenesis, Relic of Progenitus, Bajuka Bog
- running the other cards listed above keeps my deck in check with maintaining its colors. Also Bajuka bog can be tutored for if you guys are running knight of the reliquary.
For those who attended game day could you please be so kind to post your standings, matchups, your deck list+side board, and any notes you would like to include regarding your deck and matches.
Any information would be greatly appreciated and help the rest of us with refining this archetype in our current meta and deck lists.
]oh and before i forget.... if i hear that one guy complain...ohhhhhhh this is a rockkk threadddddd ohhh noesssss......the name of the thread should be G/B Varients.....so please stop wasting your keyboard clicks and just get over it.
I think the only reason its being mentioned is because we want to keep it as a rock archetype as opposed to a heavy aggro orientated list. I personally can understand both sides since the meta is just..well aggro-e, so why not follow suit and play an aggressive list. But i think we are wanting to just pull lists and results from that mid-range disruption deck that Rock is.
The title for the thread is fine, people just keep posting heavy aggro lists - which is also fine i suppose, at least its interesting to look at.
@The Frex
That is true, the tempo gain if a Birds sticks is advantageous. a T3 Percy would have me smiling too. Perhaps dropping Drana, Kalastria Highborn and cutting one of each of Momentous Fall and hmmm... maybe Garruk Wildspeaker. HAve you tested Garruk? I like the ramping effect that he provides as well as the additional ability to apply pressure to your opponent in the form of Beasties. And the threat of overrun is pretty beneficial too. However, he cannot be recurred and he could die very quickly in a board that is out of control. I will make some cuts and get back and post results.
My original list had garruk as a 2 of. He promptly was cut after some further testing due to me realizing the only reason why i was playing him was for the token creation during testing sessions, i never needed the ramp due to the curve, and i never wanted to really drop him early cause I would much rather hit their hand first and follow suit with a problem creature the following turn that they would have to top deck an answer for more likely.
@gigafish
I'm a fan of Basilisk Collar. And I think that you would be able to abuse it very well since your creatures never really die. An equipped Bloodghast chipping away at your opponent's life and/or creatures is nothing to be scoffed at. And again, Grim Discovery would be most excellent to help get those dredgers from graveyard to play a little easier. Again, my suggestions. I do like the list however, especially since you have plenty of ways to accel your fat smashers into play. Rampaging Baloths would especially like Grim Discovery so landfall triggers occur in abundance.
Thanks for your comments all.
Have you considered putting Master of the Wild hunt as a 2 of in the deck? The only reason i suggest is because he seems to be taking more advantage of your collars.
Birds is a fantastic card, and i run a 3 of in my new list, i suppose to each his own. But honestly its not that much of a tempo hit for me. Its generall t1 birds, t2 swamp, hippie. In the situation that birds is done, i still have many viable other plays such as inquisition, duress, putrid leech, smother. Honestly the fixing that birds provides is well worth the slot and the tempo increase is great. Turn 2 hippie forces your opponents to either blow a piece of removal on it or at least hesitate and allows you to stick more viable threats on the board. If that doesn't satisfy you, i know i enjoy a turn 3 persecutor.
Here are my card choices that i'd consider running if it was a B/G/u list.
Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Agony Warp
slave of bolas
spreading seas maybe?
vapor snare or mind control?
Hm doesnt seem like blue really offers too much after looking over it.
Which is unfortunate, i guess i'll stick to B/G for now.
This came out pretty childish-like of a response, how about we keep on topic and just keep our posts with constructive responses.
He never mentioned about running blue, i mentioned on a previous note i wish we could run a 3rd color, but manabase then becomes an issue.
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Speaking of which, what are people's thoughts on considering a small splash for blue? anyone think it would heavily distort things? With access to birds and cobra, as well as the fetches and the manland?
I can whole-heartily agree with this statement. Yes the game has drastically changed with its power creep, so now we have to look at packing in stronger beaters that are limited in what they do.
I can also agree to this, it really does seem like the game has become who can pull horse☺☺☺☺ cascades or drop fatties/bombs faster. Whether it be a back to back baneslayer or jace v2.0. However I feel that the power behind discard currently in the meta is alot trickier to get by with except it absolutely can demolish opponents game plans and stop them from recovering completely or recovering faster. Essentially your providing yourself CA through wrecking their own hand and plays. U/W taps out for mindspring, and you follow through with a tapout for mind shatter, not that i want to start doing the whole scenario crap thing, but listing an example.
While i see your point of the meta shifting to being more pro-active than re-active i feel that there is a good balance of both needing to be applied, with having access to cards like Consuming Vapors, being reactive nudges you a little forward the following turn as they are stuck avoiding dropping another creature.
I'll pass that up because i chose not to play a 25 creature list, if i wanted to play a deck that ran that many creatures, I'd rather just play boss naya or any aggro deck for that matter. At this point the arguement is just a matter of opinion and playstyle. I honestly could not flag a deck running 25 creatures as a rock deck. IT is flat out an aggressive deck, small beaters, curving out to mid-range creatures that can recurr. Sure you have the synergy between momentus fall at this point and applying more creatures as a board position, but can you honestly tell me that its not an aggro deck at this point with a tech of vengevine and momentus fall?
You're right, but its a price you pay for consistency in being able to ensure you are disrupting your opponents plays and position. I'm also not saying that you have to run a lot of it, but there are also a pile of cards we can sift through to find that correct balance of dead and playable to make the deck consistent. Sure your hippie might be a crap draw late-game, but if you have lets say a collar on the board, or a sledge (for whatever reason) things are totally different. By itself hippie is great, its a problem, and by adding options in your 75 you can keep it that way or swap it out for lets say...Vampire nighthawk.
Well that's what playtesting is for. She may not be suitable in a build you may be running, but have you tried playing someone else's rock deck that runs her to see how much your opinion changes?
totally agree. I'm still trying to find the correct balance, but those 3 cards should be heavily considered in MD or side.
I think keeping momentus fall at a 2 is all you need. Going 3 or 4 on the card seems kinda meh. Again, i can it as a 4 of running in a creature heavy deck (23+)- but personally at most i would run 2 or 3, especially since in those colors the 4 slots fill up rather fast.
Its an interesting card, and worth testing - i can agree. Right now the hate i'm running is Bog, relic of progenitus, and haunting echoes (in regards to testing with).
Agreed on birds, however i would love to find a consistent number between running birds and/or cobra in the deck. Yes hippy is pretty sub=par late game, but its better than either birds or cobra.
Okay, now when i say control, I just mean hand control. Essentially i can agree with your definition of rock to an extent. The archetype is a tool box, it runs efficient creatures and ways to deal with situations as they may come.
No one is saying that it shouldn't play 25 creatures or more, we are simply stating how running 25 changes how the deck runs. You are basing your assumption on a heavy creature rock deck. Look here:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=sideboard/pthou02/tech1
we are looking anywhere from 14-24 creatures. Neither side is right or wrong, it simply just varies on your list and opinions. If you choose to take a more aggressive route and run 25 creatures, then fine - if it works, it works for you, ya know? Personally I would love to get a balance between creatures and non creatures while running 3 colors (preferably B/G/u or B/G/r) but that is rough on the manabase. My personal focus at this point with my rock deck is to see rock's power within just B/G, simply because i feel like i might as well be playing Junk if i splash white, and if i splash red i might as well play Jund.
Here's my current list that I recently top 8 (8th place) in a 33 man tournament.
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Thornling
1 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Duress
1 Haunting Echoes
3 Consuming Vapors
1 Momentus Fall
2 Mind Shatter
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Dread Statuary
9 Forest
8 Swamp
2 Malikir Bloodwitch
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Duress
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Smother
1 Consume the Meek
Yes i'm aware its a bit odd with the card counts in board and side, but right now its still developing and so far so good.
At least this gives you an idea of what i'm considering for the archetype, again i'm not saying its what it should be, but its what i am enjoying playing and its winning.
Btw, the reason i placed 8th in top 8 cuts is because i forgot to exile a path to exile from his deck (he was playing Devastating Bushwacker boros). Essentially i removed all his fetchlands, all of his creatures except for goblin guides and ranger of eos,as well as some removal he was running.
Due to that path to exile he drew he removed my persecutor and lost the game as he proceeded to draw business and regain board position slowly.
Either way lesson learned, and another reason why i want to keep haunting echoes main or side. Its out of nowhere and can be devastating in this meta, especially with aggro decks being a top competitor.
Pros: Drana can fly, she can essentially kill creature and/or pump herself, so almost like a black thornling in regards to its damage output. She is also an out for abyssal persecutor.
Cons: 4/4, costs 5 to play, legendary.
I also totally agree with sadams, vengevine requires to be played around with for it to be effective 100% of the time. It requires a large creature base in the deck. Like I've mentioned before, at that point you are playing a heavy aggro deck instead of mid-range control. If anything i would consider it as sideboard material to drop a fast beater to deal with jace 2.0, but besides that i don't really see a spot for it currently.
Honestly i would much rather just run white knight. Yeah i know its double W, but it deals with Bloodbraid, leech, B/R manland (some builds run it). The first strike is the only difference besides the double white cc, but that's my imo. Maybe just try out the outlander for a little bit? my build does not have any white in it so i can't give you any personal testing experience with it.
Okay, well to be honest at this point I can only agree to disagree regarding leatherback baloth as a choice. With your counter-argument we are speaking of having 8 slots dedicated to ramp (birds and cobra), however what other reasoning is there for that amount of ramp to be used? What strategy/cards are you expecting to drop down if you dont have a baloth in hand?
Another thing that concerns me with running that amount of ramp is the increase in top decking a birds and/or cobra late game, in other words a dead card normally. Yes, i can also agree its unfortunate that you have to rely on removal for abyssal, but there has not been a time where i am ever disappointed in drawing/playing him. The removal options that we have doesn't necessarily hurt or become useless, vapors alone is a fantastic card which only downside is that its a sorcery speed removal, and while fleshbag is "sub-par" it still acts as a poor man's malikir gatekeeper. I'm not stating that it should be played, but from playtesting with the card i feel he provides an alternate removal when dealing with U/W.
I have tested it, its a fun card and has the potential to be a threat as a beater- i however simply dont feel it contributes anything to the archetype. If your goal if to either beat face and/or disrupt, why play a card that has a chance at being a 5/5 or a 2/2 that doesn't do much; why not just play a consistent beater in that slot instead? Again the question arises what is the ramp for? There is also that small thing of you having to reveal the top card, your opponents then have the advantage of knowing what is coming ahead, and a greater opportunity to counter-act more efficiently. "Duress coming up? I guess i'll drop this jace now and take my chances, and keep mana ready for a pulse down the road." [/quote]
I agree with about 90% of this statement, I have also play tested with it and came to a similar conclusion. While he generally sits there, you are still building board position each turn you take with him. Sure i totally agree it is a little bit slow, and its not a Wolf Briar Elemental (which i wish i could find room to play with), but the card itself is consistent with "Deal with me soon or this game will end faster".
You are absolutely right, i believe Vengevine is an amazing card but you answered why i dont run it main. I have to have 2 available creatures to play that turn to make vengevines amazing. So essentially i have to build my deck slightly around him (run more cheap creatures) for him to do his job to the extent that he was designed for.
As far as i know Thornling does do quite a bit against UW. It tells them, their DOJ's are dead, their martial coups now became blockers, jace needs to come down to bounce it up, then hope the opponent does not have enough mana to give it haste the following turn and/or: Trample, indestructibility. He screams "I am a problem, deal with me fast, hope you find a PTE or O-ring soon." Yes ant queen has the ability of producing mass amount of beaters if she untaps, but for the most part she can't deal with the amount of removal that exists in this format currently due to her lack of evasion.
My apologies for keeping it short earlier, i was pressed for time and unable to collect my words as i have today.
I also would like to note, that we obviously have the extremes of what rock should be played as in this current meta, and that's fine, i simply wanted to clarify your reasonings behind this choice and choice of cards for said deck.
Personally I can't understand why you chose the beaters that you listed. While i appreciate the feedback you've provided to this thread I was wondering if you can provide more information regarding your creature choices.
1 Leatherback Baloth - Triple green? Honestly i can't imagine being able to cast him consistently on turn 2 or 3 for that matter.
2 Putrid Leech- great card
3 Abyssal Persecutor- fantastic beater, sure he requires removal, but with access to momentus fall, consuming vapors, fleshbag marauder, why not.
4 Muldaya Channelers- unfortunately she is also inconsistent with being a beater, even with fetches.
5 Vengevine- great card, possible side board since it requires the deck to be creature heavy or recursion heavy to make good use out of him.
6 Master of the Wild Hunt- great card, fantastic for recovering from a DoJ
7 Ant queen- she's a fun a card, but honestly why not Thornling, he so much better. He alone wins games, especially alongside abyssal Persecutor.
that's cool. I am also unsure why you traded off a ~10 dollar card for a 1 dollar one. (Drana comes in a starter deck foil)
As for identity crisis...um no thanks. I barely am considering it for the sideboard. Mind you i'm running a B/G deck, so i'd rather just run haunting echoes to destroy dredge any chance of winning. I'm already running discard, no need to fill my side or MD with expensive dead cards. If i was still running my B/W/R control deck, i would totally run that card in side...but this being rock, you are already disrupting their hand and board. I guess what i'm trying to say is.
- I'm already running discard: Mind shatter, hippies, duress, inquisition.
- there are cheaper ways to deal with a graveyard: Haunting Echoes, Necrogenesis, Relic of Progenitus, Bajuka Bog
- running the other cards listed above keeps my deck in check with maintaining its colors. Also Bajuka bog can be tutored for if you guys are running knight of the reliquary.
Any information would be greatly appreciated and help the rest of us with refining this archetype in our current meta and deck lists.
I think the only reason its being mentioned is because we want to keep it as a rock archetype as opposed to a heavy aggro orientated list. I personally can understand both sides since the meta is just..well aggro-e, so why not follow suit and play an aggressive list. But i think we are wanting to just pull lists and results from that mid-range disruption deck that Rock is.
The title for the thread is fine, people just keep posting heavy aggro lists - which is also fine i suppose, at least its interesting to look at.
My original list had garruk as a 2 of. He promptly was cut after some further testing due to me realizing the only reason why i was playing him was for the token creation during testing sessions, i never needed the ramp due to the curve, and i never wanted to really drop him early cause I would much rather hit their hand first and follow suit with a problem creature the following turn that they would have to top deck an answer for more likely.
Have you considered putting Master of the Wild hunt as a 2 of in the deck? The only reason i suggest is because he seems to be taking more advantage of your collars.
Birds is a fantastic card, and i run a 3 of in my new list, i suppose to each his own. But honestly its not that much of a tempo hit for me. Its generall t1 birds, t2 swamp, hippie. In the situation that birds is done, i still have many viable other plays such as inquisition, duress, putrid leech, smother. Honestly the fixing that birds provides is well worth the slot and the tempo increase is great. Turn 2 hippie forces your opponents to either blow a piece of removal on it or at least hesitate and allows you to stick more viable threats on the board. If that doesn't satisfy you, i know i enjoy a turn 3 persecutor.
Here is my list:
4 Putrid Leech
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Thornling
1 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Smother
2 Mind Rot
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Consuming Vapors
1 Momentus Fall
2 Liliana Vess
2 Dread Statuary
8 Swamp
9 Forest
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Inquisition
2 Smother
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Vendetta
1 Mind Shatter
1 Momentus Fall
1 Haunting Echoes
2 Malikir Bloodwitch