I'd hardly say that. It's a non-storm win-condition requiring multiple blue (lloking at you, LED), which would require the same amount of protection to force through against landstill. Couple that with the fact that most landstill builds are running canonists out of the board and you've got one sub-par-sideboard card. Against TES the game will, 99% of the time, come down to who drew more disruption. If you have enough mana and protection to win off of wish=> telemin, you could probably win some other way that didn't require a dedicated card, though an "oops I win" button might be useful sometimes.
Very much not worth the slot in an already super tight board.
Definitely fair points. Also, how often is the Diminishing Returns and pray plan better than the Empty the Warrens plan? A card that costs 6 total mana and doesn't win you the game seems bad to me.
Here's the sideboard I was thinking of running (maindeck being the above list -1 Fetch/City of Brass {haven't decided} +1 Tropical Island):
As for Telemin Performance, I know that in testing and in sanctioned matches, I have had situations in the mirror match where I have had Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond, and enough mana to wish for a 5 mana spell (obviously staring at my Wish and trying to turn it into an Infernal Tutor), and not being able to get the kill that turn. That is, not enough cards to storm for Tendrils of Agony, not wanting to risk having to wait and attack with Empty the Warrens tokens, or them having an Orim's Chant effect in their graveyard and the mana to cast it, rendering Ill-Gotten Gains useless.
In order for Telemin Performance to kill a Landstill player, the following things have to happen:
-You must have 3UU after a Burning Wish (probably through Lion's Eye Diamond).
-You must actually resolve Performance itself. The important thing to note here is that if Burning Wish resolved, they most likely do not have a counterspell, as Burning Wish is usually the optimal card to counter in your spell chain. Obviously this is not a worry if you have a Chant effect.
-Your opponent must not have any creatures in their 60 cards. I ran Landstill briefly and I at least considered including Vendilion Clique in my 75, so I do not really know how to approach this problem. I do know that 100% of the top 8 Landstill lists I have seen contain no creatures, but losing a game in this way would be embarrassing.
Since Landstill runs 3-4 Pernicious Deed maindeck (that they are likely not siding out), Empty the Warrens is an extremely unreliable kill condition past turn 1. Additionally, their counterspell count is extremely high, so Ill-Gotten Gains tends to be bad unless you have already resolved a Chant effect. This means, of course, that if you have Burning Wish (as opposed to Infernal Tutor), you have no way to consistently win if you cannot naturally generate 10 storm. I already went over how you can have no good Wish targets available when playing against Storm.
So Telemin Performance gives us a good Wish target when we would not have one against two reasonably popular Legacy decks. At the Richmond Legacy Open, I am expecting about 10% of the field to be Storm and about 2% of the field to be Landstill (let me know if you think these numbers are way off). I am convinced that this card is good against those two decks, but not sure whether 12% of the field is enough to dedicate a sideboard slot. This is the main point that I would like input on.
Assuming I do not run the Telemin Performance, the last sideboard slot will probably be Xantid Swarm. In my experience, many blue decks (especially Fish-style decks) cannot beat a resolved Xantid Swarm post sideboard, since they will probably not have any removal left in their deck. I am wary of running the full set of them though, since drawing multiples is pretty much the worst of the worst.
Any criticism of this sideboard is appreciated, and any criticism of my discussion of the 15th slot is even more so. I think that my maindeck is very close to optimal, which means that much of my success or failure on Sunday will be as a result of my choices in the sideboard.
tl;dr- Tell me what you would change about my sideboard.
What does everyone here think about 1x Telemin Performance in the board? It's the best possible wish target for the Landstill and mirror matches. I'll probably test it out this weekend and let you all know if it was good enough to be worth including.
@loolrus and (other users but mainly about his list):
i like your list for the most part but being a new player to TES i have a few questions
1) how many chrome mox is normally run in TES?
Seems to me that you either go 4 Chrome Mox and 13 land or 3 Chrome Mox and 14 land. I chose to go with the latter because in my (limited) experience, Chrome Mox is very inconsistent. It seems to be a necessary evil, but drawing multiples is awkward to say the least.
I believe that Ill-Gotten Gains vs. Empty in the maindeck is personal preference. Ad Nauseam seems to be in everyone's maindeck. As far as I can tell, Empty is less situational than IGG, but I could be wrong.
3) what would a good ratio of duress/chant effects be both main and sideboard?
I like 4 chants in the main, it seems like the right number. Honestly, I think 8 protection spells is correct in this format. If survival gets banned and blue decks become more dominant again, then more would obviously be better.
As far as the sideboard goes, I often see people playing just 1 protection spell as a wish target. However, these lists often have 3 Pyroblast in the board, which I think is definitely suboptimal right now, given that Counterbalance decks are a lot less prevalent. Thoughtseize usually is just as good as Blast at hitting a counterspell, and also hits hate bears.
Take these answers with a grain of salt as I just started playing the deck, but any opinion helps, I guess.
Just thought I'd post my 3rd place list from a 26-man tournament yesterday. First time playing this deck in a sanctioned event, so I wasn't sure what to expect, but I ended up beating a more experienced Storm player once in the Swiss and again in the top 8, so not too bad I guess.
So pretty stock list, I guess, except for the sideboard. The 4 Thoughtseizes were amazing all day. I'd like to cut maybe 2 bounce spells for Xantid Swarms or more Chants. Not sure on that one though.
My overall impression of the deck is that when the deck runs well, it runs really well. There were a few Storm players in the 0-X bracket, which makes me a little uneasy about taking this deck to Richmond next weekend, but I'm not sure whether that was due to playskill or matchups or whatever.
In any case, I would like some input on the sideboard mostly. Thanks.
This is what I'm planning on taking to the Masters qualifier on Saturday, as far as I can remember.
And yeah, Sun Titan has proved to be pretty insane in testing. Recurring Qasali Pridemage is insane when you're facing something like Eldrazi Green or Mythic (axing multiple Conscriptions is neat). Even just getting back Sea Gate Oracles usually gives you enough advantage to win the game.
I haven't tested the Leyline yet, but I'm expecting a lot of RDW and the card, along with Celestial Purge, should make me a favorite games 2 and 3. As far as the 4 Negates, I didn't think I would need them but I don't think I can win a match against something janky like Summoning Trap or Open the Vaults without them.
Let me know what you all think, I'm definitely down for last minute changes before the event.
Survival Cache is amazing. It might be my favorite card in the deck. Seriously, try it. I think it was dead in hand once through the whole tournament, compared to 10-15 times where it was 2 cards and 4 life. The card is so good.
And I tried chalice, and the acceleration was not worth it being such a terrible, terrible topdeck.
The one change that I will probably make is Day of Judgment over Chain Reaction. Chain Reaction is really awesome with Firewalker out, but I had a lot of awkward situations of them having triple Leech to my empty board when I have Reaction in hand.
Round 1: Naya 2-1 (1-0)
Game one he was flooded. Game two he mulled to five and his Collar plus triple Sparkmage ate a lot of my Baneslayer Angels, so I lost. Game three my deck did its thing and killed all of his dudes, and I took the match.
Round 2: Naya 2-0 (2-0)
I don't remember what exactly happened here, but as I was playing against him my thoughts were, "I don't think I can lose a match to Naya with this deck."
Round 3: Jund 0-2 (2-1)
Game one I got mana screwed, game two I got pretty owned by some ridiculous Jund draw with double Blightning.
Round 4: Jund 0-2 (2-2)
Game one I got mana screwed, game two I got triple Blightninged. Sound familiar? At this point I was pretty pissed.
Round 5: Vampires 2-0 (3-2)
Game one, all of his removal was pretty dead and my planeswalkers got there. Game two was close, we were both topdecking at one point, but I hit a Baneslayer and he hit lands.
Round 6: Naya 2-0 (4-2)
My deck doesn't lose to Naya. Even when his board had 2 Vengevines, a Bloodbraid, and some mana dorks, he still wasn't in the game.
Round 7: Jund 2-1 (5-2)
Game one was a blowout in my favor, game two a blowout in his. Game three was really close, and I had to draw a Lightning Bolt the last turn or I was dead. It was a Lightning Bolt.
Round 8: Jund 2-1 (6-2)
Basically the same as last round, with me topdecking the right thing at the right time to win through triple Blightning game 3.
Round 9: Mythic 0-2 (6-3)
Punted game one because I was beat, hungry, and burned out from Magic. Game two he had two Sovereigns and I had only one Path. Good game.
Well, I had a lot of fun at the GP, and it's a bit unfortunate that I came within one match of making day two with a homebrew deck, but it's really whatever. At least I got a Jitte.
Let me know if anyone has any suggestions for the deck as far as card choices go, I'm thinking about taking this to a PTQ this summer.
Wait until M11 or Scars. You always get best value out of your box if you get it right when the set comes out. Preorder so you get the box for $80 or so, and yeah. If you crack it the day you get it and immediately trade everything for Zen block staples, you should come pretty close to recouping your investment, barring disgustingly bad luck.
Definitely fair points. Also, how often is the Diminishing Returns and pray plan better than the Empty the Warrens plan? A card that costs 6 total mana and doesn't win you the game seems bad to me.
Here's the sideboard I was thinking of running (maindeck being the above list -1 Fetch/City of Brass {haven't decided} +1 Tropical Island):
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Oust
4 Thoughtseize
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Flex
With Reverent Silence, Shattering Spree, and Oust, it seems like Eye of Nowhere is unnecessary, especially since Shattering Spree gets around Chalice of the Void and Reverent Silence should get around Counterbalance (if they flip a Jace, I would obviously be pissed, but it's a better shot than Eye of Nowhere).
Similarly, I feel as though Pyroclasm and Oust perform Grapeshot's role admirably, especially since both of those cards can deal with Ethersworn Canonist, whereas Grapeshot cannot.
As for Telemin Performance, I know that in testing and in sanctioned matches, I have had situations in the mirror match where I have had Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond, and enough mana to wish for a 5 mana spell (obviously staring at my Wish and trying to turn it into an Infernal Tutor), and not being able to get the kill that turn. That is, not enough cards to storm for Tendrils of Agony, not wanting to risk having to wait and attack with Empty the Warrens tokens, or them having an Orim's Chant effect in their graveyard and the mana to cast it, rendering Ill-Gotten Gains useless.
In order for Telemin Performance to kill a Landstill player, the following things have to happen:
-You must have 3UU after a Burning Wish (probably through Lion's Eye Diamond).
-You must actually resolve Performance itself. The important thing to note here is that if Burning Wish resolved, they most likely do not have a counterspell, as Burning Wish is usually the optimal card to counter in your spell chain. Obviously this is not a worry if you have a Chant effect.
-Your opponent must not have any creatures in their 60 cards. I ran Landstill briefly and I at least considered including Vendilion Clique in my 75, so I do not really know how to approach this problem. I do know that 100% of the top 8 Landstill lists I have seen contain no creatures, but losing a game in this way would be embarrassing.
Since Landstill runs 3-4 Pernicious Deed maindeck (that they are likely not siding out), Empty the Warrens is an extremely unreliable kill condition past turn 1. Additionally, their counterspell count is extremely high, so Ill-Gotten Gains tends to be bad unless you have already resolved a Chant effect. This means, of course, that if you have Burning Wish (as opposed to Infernal Tutor), you have no way to consistently win if you cannot naturally generate 10 storm. I already went over how you can have no good Wish targets available when playing against Storm.
So Telemin Performance gives us a good Wish target when we would not have one against two reasonably popular Legacy decks. At the Richmond Legacy Open, I am expecting about 10% of the field to be Storm and about 2% of the field to be Landstill (let me know if you think these numbers are way off). I am convinced that this card is good against those two decks, but not sure whether 12% of the field is enough to dedicate a sideboard slot. This is the main point that I would like input on.
Assuming I do not run the Telemin Performance, the last sideboard slot will probably be Xantid Swarm. In my experience, many blue decks (especially Fish-style decks) cannot beat a resolved Xantid Swarm post sideboard, since they will probably not have any removal left in their deck. I am wary of running the full set of them though, since drawing multiples is pretty much the worst of the worst.
Any criticism of this sideboard is appreciated, and any criticism of my discussion of the 15th slot is even more so. I think that my maindeck is very close to optimal, which means that much of my success or failure on Sunday will be as a result of my choices in the sideboard.
tl;dr- Tell me what you would change about my sideboard.
I believe that Ill-Gotten Gains vs. Empty in the maindeck is personal preference. Ad Nauseam seems to be in everyone's maindeck. As far as I can tell, Empty is less situational than IGG, but I could be wrong.
I like 4 chants in the main, it seems like the right number. Honestly, I think 8 protection spells is correct in this format. If survival gets banned and blue decks become more dominant again, then more would obviously be better.
As far as the sideboard goes, I often see people playing just 1 protection spell as a wish target. However, these lists often have 3 Pyroblast in the board, which I think is definitely suboptimal right now, given that Counterbalance decks are a lot less prevalent. Thoughtseize usually is just as good as Blast at hitting a counterspell, and also hits hate bears.
Take these answers with a grain of salt as I just started playing the deck, but any opinion helps, I guess.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
Protection
2 Orim's Chant
2 Silence
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
Business
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Fetch
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Pyroclasm
1 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Eye of Nowhere
1 Diminishing Returns
So pretty stock list, I guess, except for the sideboard. The 4 Thoughtseizes were amazing all day. I'd like to cut maybe 2 bounce spells for Xantid Swarms or more Chants. Not sure on that one though.
My overall impression of the deck is that when the deck runs well, it runs really well. There were a few Storm players in the 0-X bracket, which makes me a little uneasy about taking this deck to Richmond next weekend, but I'm not sure whether that was due to playskill or matchups or whatever.
In any case, I would like some input on the sideboard mostly. Thanks.
And yeah, Sun Titan has proved to be pretty insane in testing. Recurring Qasali Pridemage is insane when you're facing something like Eldrazi Green or Mythic (axing multiple Conscriptions is neat). Even just getting back Sea Gate Oracles usually gives you enough advantage to win the game.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Vengevine
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Gideon Jura
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Sea Gate Oracle
3 Wall of Omens
3 Lotus Cobra
2 Sun Titan
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ranger of Eos
4 Mana Leak
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Sunpetal Grove
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Plains
Sideboard:
4 Path to Exile
4 Celestial Purge
3 Leyline of Sanctity
I haven't tested the Leyline yet, but I'm expecting a lot of RDW and the card, along with Celestial Purge, should make me a favorite games 2 and 3. As far as the 4 Negates, I didn't think I would need them but I don't think I can win a match against something janky like Summoning Trap or Open the Vaults without them.
Let me know what you all think, I'm definitely down for last minute changes before the event.
Enemy color duals are more powerful than ally color duals. I think they're probably just finishing the cycle in M11.
And I tried chalice, and the acceleration was not worth it being such a terrible, terrible topdeck.
The one change that I will probably make is Day of Judgment over Chain Reaction. Chain Reaction is really awesome with Firewalker out, but I had a lot of awkward situations of them having triple Leech to my empty board when I have Reaction in hand.
3 Ajani Vengeant
3 Gideon Jura
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Kor Firewalker
3 Chain Reaction
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Staggershock
3 Survival Cache
3 Path to Exile
4 Wall of Omens
4 Arid Mesa
3 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
10 Plains
7 Mountains
2 Volcanic Fallout (never used them)
1 Chain Reaction
1 Path to Exile
1 Rest for the Weary (for RDW)
2 Forked Bolt (for mana dorks)
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Manabarbs
Here's what I played against:
Round 1: Naya 2-1 (1-0)
Game one he was flooded. Game two he mulled to five and his Collar plus triple Sparkmage ate a lot of my Baneslayer Angels, so I lost. Game three my deck did its thing and killed all of his dudes, and I took the match.
Round 2: Naya 2-0 (2-0)
I don't remember what exactly happened here, but as I was playing against him my thoughts were, "I don't think I can lose a match to Naya with this deck."
Round 3: Jund 0-2 (2-1)
Game one I got mana screwed, game two I got pretty owned by some ridiculous Jund draw with double Blightning.
Round 4: Jund 0-2 (2-2)
Game one I got mana screwed, game two I got triple Blightninged. Sound familiar? At this point I was pretty pissed.
Round 5: Vampires 2-0 (3-2)
Game one, all of his removal was pretty dead and my planeswalkers got there. Game two was close, we were both topdecking at one point, but I hit a Baneslayer and he hit lands.
Round 6: Naya 2-0 (4-2)
My deck doesn't lose to Naya. Even when his board had 2 Vengevines, a Bloodbraid, and some mana dorks, he still wasn't in the game.
Round 7: Jund 2-1 (5-2)
Game one was a blowout in my favor, game two a blowout in his. Game three was really close, and I had to draw a Lightning Bolt the last turn or I was dead. It was a Lightning Bolt.
Round 8: Jund 2-1 (6-2)
Basically the same as last round, with me topdecking the right thing at the right time to win through triple Blightning game 3.
Round 9: Mythic 0-2 (6-3)
Punted game one because I was beat, hungry, and burned out from Magic. Game two he had two Sovereigns and I had only one Path. Good game.
Well, I had a lot of fun at the GP, and it's a bit unfortunate that I came within one match of making day two with a homebrew deck, but it's really whatever. At least I got a Jitte.
Let me know if anyone has any suggestions for the deck as far as card choices go, I'm thinking about taking this to a PTQ this summer.
Wait until M11 or Scars. You always get best value out of your box if you get it right when the set comes out. Preorder so you get the box for $80 or so, and yeah. If you crack it the day you get it and immediately trade everything for Zen block staples, you should come pretty close to recouping your investment, barring disgustingly bad luck.
Two games in a row.
The guy is a pretty bad player, but made a hell of a good choice for the meta, it seems. That deck is silly.
You also probably want to splash white for Swords if you move to Legacy.