If crimson wisps is enabling your second dork it's not mana neutral =]
Well, what I mean is, the dork will cost G and then red wisps costs R. When you cast it, the dork can then tap for mana. So, after you've cast it, you're down G for the dork, but wisps was essentially free. If you can continue to combo, then it starts generating more mana, but at first it's mana neutral. Blue wisps, on the other hand, nets you 1 mana immediately.
Oh yeah, i completely missed the part where you need to actually CAST your mana dork.
Ah, ok. So you need a free spell to pull it off. That showcases the strength of cerulean wisps as well, I think. It's not strong in that it enables a turn 2 kill, but rather that it powers you into that critical mass of cards and mana faster than other cards. The red wisps is mana neutral when you first play it, so it can't really pull you into the critical mass like the blue one, although it may be better once you've started going off. I generally find that cards that help you get started are better than cards that help you continue in combo decks.
If crimson wisps is enabling your second dork it's not mana neutral =]
I think Crimson Wisps and Wind Zendikon compete for the same slot. And my thinking, currently, is that Wind Zendikon is likely better. I think Lectrys may agree with that, too.
Zendikon also helps you get going, by acting as a second dork.
Anyone give any thought to the new delve spells from Khans (Dig Through Time & Treasure Cruise?) It doesn't take too long for UR Delver to fill the yard with fetches and cantrip spells, plus Thought Scour could be playable. The big downside obviously would be the anti-synergy with Snapcaster and vulnerability to GY hate. I might try one as a one-of to test if they are too clunky.
The cool thing about Treasure Cruise vs. Snapcaster is that you can choose to leave 1 Bolt in the yard to feed Snappy, and feed your Cruise with the rest. It's also important to note that while them Relic'ing you hurts Cruise, they can't Relic in response to you attempting to pay by Delving. And i mean, if you have a Snapcaster in hand that you have the opportunity to cast and FB a bolt with, likely you don't need the CA from Cruise, yet. You could likely just wait until Snapcaster dies or something. (His death replaces the bolt. So, if you use him as a Flash blocker, he replaces the bolt, anyways.) I agree that it can be awkward, but that's why Cruise will likely be playable as a 2-3x.
And if you expect a Relic to come in (i think it's been dropping out of SB's lately), you can always side out the cruises. They seem pretty easy to side out for "good" cards for the MU, since they don't provide you any 'action'.
T1: Dork (Noble/Bird, work best)
T2: Ascendancy + Gitaxian Probe -> Proceed to lucksack loot into exactly what you need. With Lectrys build likely you'll need to draw into a Wind Zendikon. With the other build you need to draw into some cerluean wisps (or another way to net mana) so that you can get another Ascendancy down.
The best MB spell vs burn are snare (followed by lightning bolt).
I prefer mainboarding 2/3 snares, which are great vs other big decks in the format (namely affinity and BG) and minor decks (merfolk); and keep broader yet worse antiburn cards in the sb (negate, baloths).
You need to pack a strong b-plan vs BGx too, I think we cannot afford to run sb cards which are utter trash vs anything but burn.
I really liked Spell Snare vs. Storm, too. It counters everything relevant, except for PiF.
But in four colours, though? I mean, it might be possible and I certainly won't dismiss your build before I've seen it in action, but... That's still a lot of coloured mana.
Goldfish Sam Black's list, then come back to us with your thoughts.
The crossover point for Sphinx's Rev is 7 mana (at 6 mana, Urban Evolution beats it). Plus 2 mana for Wish, that's 9 mana total. I don't think you can get that high even with Zendikons, unless you resolved a Treasure Cruise or second Ascendancy, in which case you should be fine without having to Wish for Rev.
If you want to play draw spells in the SB, play Scarscale Ritual.
The more I play this deck, the more I find it struggles if it doesn't draw Treasure Cruise during the combo. I should point out that double or even triple Ascendancy IS a legitimate thing, which I overlooked before. Double Ascendancy gets you to Cruise faster - even if you have to throw away a few cantrips, resolving Cruise makes up for that. Adding to that, I'm trying out 4 Cruise now (-1 Zendikon for the 4th Cruise).
I second scarscale ritual; it's genius. And makes your redundant copies of Glittering Wish pretty amazing during your Combo turn. I almost want to find room for 2x Scarscale in the SB to make Wish relevant during the combo.
I also think Cruise is the strongest card you can draw into during combo. 4 might be right.
Is there a single better card than nourish against burn? I haven't found any. You can find some that are better overall because they help against more decks, but none that is specifically better against burn. Also, the double green isn't a problem since you're already aiming for baloth's GG.
I like Dispel. It can't be Skullcracked/Flames'ed, and is U, Instant, Gain 3 life. Unless they have an Eidolon out, in which case you should just scoop.
Wind Zendikon isn't necessary because I have 12 mana dorks. I play it as tech, since it lets you go off if you have a Breeding Pool, and you don't have to wait one turn for summoning sickness to clear. Mid-combo, you can stick it on a land (again, hopefully a Breeding Pool) and get more mana and loot once.
On the subject of Zendikons, I think they're worse than mana dorks, because they don't do anything outside the combo. Mana dorks ramp, so you can cycle through your deck for Ascendancy faster. Between 12 dorks and 8 dorks/4 Zendikons I'd pick 12 dorks.
You're right about Dryad Arbor, it's too slow against Liliana and it doesn't tap for green. Should change it to a fetch/Pool/basic Forest.
I think Grapeshot is necessary, it kills for just 2 mana. If you play something like a multicolored X spell as your wincon, you still have to generate enough mana for it. That's not really possible unless you're playing sub-par cards like haste granters (for mana dorks) or Zendikons. Think about it this way, if you play Grapeshot it takes up just 1 slot in your deck, while if you play Zendikons they take up 3-4. Grapeshot is less wasteful.
I play Bolt because there are some things that I want to get rid of permanently, not just bounce (e.g. opposing mana dorks, red Eidolon, assorted hatebears). It might actually be better to go up to 4 Bolts.
Silence, Swan Song, Autumn's Veil are interchangeable as anti-counterspell cards. Silence and Veil beat Counterflux, and Veil is on-color.
I'm not sure how much of each type of counter-hate I should play, so the SB is just a bunch of 1s for now. I think a level-headed (no cute stuff) SB might be:
Eidolon of the Great Revel can be seen in G1, before you've sided in your single-ton bolt.
The deck also does a lot of pain to itself; wishing into a wear//tear for Eidolon costs 4 life (and maybe more for Mana Confluence). Helix only costs you 1 life (+pain).
^ Thanks! I like it, it's like Storm but less keeping track of counters/graveyard/flashback. Sounds like fun to play.
I personally like Dork Storm, but don't mind Jeskai Storm
Also, can you explain why you would cut the Grapeshot? And add the other wisps?
Grapeshot is out for a Wish target that accomplishes the same thing to add consistency to the deck (drawing into a Grapeshot before you want it is worse than drawing into extra land/dorks because you can't loot it away). Instead Debt to the Deathless or Flesh//Blood seem better.
Crimson Wisps accomplish about as much as hardcasted Gitaxian Probe at its worst. At its best it can be used to allow a dork to start tapping mana for you on combo turn. Example: you start off comboing with Caryatid, you then draw into another Dork and Crimson Wisps it to start using it to net yourself extra mana with cantrips. it also allows you to begin the combo with only Caryatid and still attack through for damage.
Lectrys version solves that issue with Wind Zendikon, which i want to try out, too. Zendikon likely gives you better pump kill potential, too, what with it flying and everything. Wind Zendikon also doesn't offer up the 3-for-1 to Electrolyze, either.
I think the MD should go: -1 Dryad, -1 Grapeshot +2 Crimson Wisps, SB: -1 Swan Song or Bolt +1 Flesh//Blood.
I also think that Wishing for manamorphose can be awkward, and am wondering how to get 4 in the board. Lectrys?
Also, Dork Storm, Jeskai Storm, or Ascendancy Combo?
If your meta is infested with aggro I might suggest main boarding some Coiling Oracle. Cantripping on a stick is far better than holding up e.g. remand on turn 2 against many of these decks, and lategame it cycles making it a far better top deck than say Bolt.
If your metagame is so infested with Aggro that you're thinking of running Oracle, i would either a) play sweepers MD or b) play a different deck, instead
2x izzet charm (only kills bob and sometimes can get liliana or discard, really weak top deck)
4x remand (really bad top deck, bad vs 1 mana discard. Interesting note, Patrick Dickmann likes remand on the play vs BGx when he plays twin)
1x see beyond (don't need to shuffle away cards in this MU)
1x peer (doesn't find the 9 creatures I bring in)
1x snapcaster mage (can be useless if they have an active ooze or they bring in cage
I bring in
2x wurmcoil (best card vs them, trades with goyf, races thrun, makes them use multiple spells to kill it)
2x inferno titan (kills them quickly, sometimes good vs liliana/bob)
2x clique (good vs liliana and for taking out slaughter games or other big bombs)
3x baloth (good vs liliana, helps you stabilize before you assemble scapeshift)
No one is playing wurmcoils in their board. Some people have affinity/anti blue card in that spot.
Sadly Temur Charm is wildly unplayble in this deck
• Target creature you control gets +1/+1 until end of turn. That creature fights target creature you don't control.
• Counter target spell unless its controller pays 3.
• Creatures with power 3 or less can't block this turn.
As soon as I acquire Wurmcoils they're going in the board over Grudge.
And i've never really thought to bring out Remand vs. Jund all the time. I'm going to try that, even when on the Play. I liked it to be able to Remand a Lili into Cryptic Command (provided i had a Search T1), and keep Goyf/Bob off the table as long as possible while also providing a buffer to Lili's +1 (while on the play). I'm going to start trying that now; i haven't tested the MU much since adding Baloths, Baloth is likely a lot better against Lili than Remand. lol.
It looked great aside from the lack of basic mountain to fetch. (This is, of course, only relevant for Olivia's ability and the want for RR or even RRR when you have her on board)
He's running the Blackcleaves, which after Khans comes out, I'm inclined to keep, as well. They're great vs. Burn and help with the intense mana costs of the cards Jund likes to cast. I'm willing to bet they'll stay included in the stock list, but only time will tell.
Blackcleave Cliffs is such a powerfull Land and i don't get why all you people cut it down so easily without giving an explanation. :_(
The reason why we all want to cut it is because casting your spells on time is really good. Cliffs enables turn 1-3 plays well, but once you have 3 lands in play, it is one of our absolute worst topdecks. Sometimes you need to cast two removal spells in a turn but you can't because you have what is basically an Urborg Volcano in your hand. Sometimes you really need the turn 4 Shatterstorm on turn 4 and not on turn 5. Sometimes you need another green source, but are stuck with a Cliffs instead of a fetchland. Hopefully, you get the idea. Fetches are a little more painful at first glance, but it's not even clear that it would be any more painful if you fetch carefully sequence your lands properly. And even if it is more painful, the increased flexibility is probably worth it.
Aside from Courser, your early drops aren't very green intensive (I sort of count Scooze as a later game card), i think it's rare than you want more than 1 or 2 green mana symbols on your side of the field (And the inclusion of 1x Twilight Mire, 4x Verdant Catacombs, 4x Bloodstained Mire, 3-4x Treetop, 1-2x Raging Ravine and the number of basics and shocks seem to be plenty, without adding in 2-4x Wooded Foothills.)
Wooded Foothills fetching a T1 black source seems really awful when half the time that T1 blacksource is going to be Thoughtseizing. I'd much prefer dropping a tapped Blackcleave Cliffs late in the game if it means taking 4 less damage over the course of the game.
Not fetching twice versus Scapeshift is important, too. Blackcleave Cliffs vs. Foothills + Basics could be worth an entire turn.
I don't think remanding a suspended rift bolt is the way to go. In fact remanding 1 mana spells is generally bad.
A suspended rift bolt gets cast on the burn players upkeep. Are you really going to tap low before their main phase to remand their card they spent 1 mana on? Say this on turns 2-3, do you risk remanding there and have them resolve a eidolon? Now as it gets later in the game and the burn plays has more lands and you draw remands, you need to cash those remands in to find a scapeshift if you haven't. So remanding a rift bolt or 1 mana spell in the later game is usually fine.
You want to try to remand 2 mana spells, even skull cracks and flames of the blood hand cast at the end of your turn.
It's fine to remand 1 mana spells if, the opponent is stuck on 1 land. The card is named shard volley. Or like previously said you need to cycle remands to find scapeshift.
I wouldn't tap out for it, no. But, i found it was a good way to get some tempo when i'm on 4 lands, at least. But, yeah, they're probably better spent on Flames/Skullcrack.
Oh yeah, i completely missed the part where you need to actually CAST your mana dork.
I'm stupid. Carry on.
If crimson wisps is enabling your second dork it's not mana neutral =]
I think Crimson Wisps and Wind Zendikon compete for the same slot. And my thinking, currently, is that Wind Zendikon is likely better. I think Lectrys may agree with that, too.
Zendikon also helps you get going, by acting as a second dork.
The cool thing about Treasure Cruise vs. Snapcaster is that you can choose to leave 1 Bolt in the yard to feed Snappy, and feed your Cruise with the rest. It's also important to note that while them Relic'ing you hurts Cruise, they can't Relic in response to you attempting to pay by Delving. And i mean, if you have a Snapcaster in hand that you have the opportunity to cast and FB a bolt with, likely you don't need the CA from Cruise, yet. You could likely just wait until Snapcaster dies or something. (His death replaces the bolt. So, if you use him as a Flash blocker, he replaces the bolt, anyways.) I agree that it can be awkward, but that's why Cruise will likely be playable as a 2-3x.
And if you expect a Relic to come in (i think it's been dropping out of SB's lately), you can always side out the cruises. They seem pretty easy to side out for "good" cards for the MU, since they don't provide you any 'action'.
T1: Dork (Noble/Bird, work best)
T2: Ascendancy + Gitaxian Probe -> Proceed to lucksack loot into exactly what you need. With Lectrys build likely you'll need to draw into a Wind Zendikon. With the other build you need to draw into some cerluean wisps (or another way to net mana) so that you can get another Ascendancy down.
I really liked Spell Snare vs. Storm, too. It counters everything relevant, except for PiF.
Goldfish Sam Black's list, then come back to us with your thoughts.
I second scarscale ritual; it's genius. And makes your redundant copies of Glittering Wish pretty amazing during your Combo turn. I almost want to find room for 2x Scarscale in the SB to make Wish relevant during the combo.
I also think Cruise is the strongest card you can draw into during combo. 4 might be right.
I like Dispel. It can't be Skullcracked/Flames'ed, and is U, Instant, Gain 3 life. Unless they have an Eidolon out, in which case you should just scoop.
Lightning Helix over Lightning Bolt?
Eidolon of the Great Revel can be seen in G1, before you've sided in your single-ton bolt.
The deck also does a lot of pain to itself; wishing into a wear//tear for Eidolon costs 4 life (and maybe more for Mana Confluence). Helix only costs you 1 life (+pain).
Grapeshot is out for a Wish target that accomplishes the same thing to add consistency to the deck (drawing into a Grapeshot before you want it is worse than drawing into extra land/dorks because you can't loot it away). Instead Debt to the Deathless or Flesh//Blood seem better.
Crimson Wisps accomplish about as much as hardcasted Gitaxian Probe at its worst. At its best it can be used to allow a dork to start tapping mana for you on combo turn. Example: you start off comboing with Caryatid, you then draw into another Dork and Crimson Wisps it to start using it to net yourself extra mana with cantrips. it also allows you to begin the combo with only Caryatid and still attack through for damage.
Lectrys version solves that issue with Wind Zendikon, which i want to try out, too. Zendikon likely gives you better pump kill potential, too, what with it flying and everything. Wind Zendikon also doesn't offer up the 3-for-1 to Electrolyze, either.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Breeding Pool
4 Mana Confluence
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Cerulean Wisps
3 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Glittering Wish
1 Grapeshot
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Meddling Mage
1 Jeskai Ascendancy
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Guttural Response
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Manamorphose
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Simic Charm
4 Swan Song
1 Firespout
1 Maelstrom Pulse
I think the MD should go: -1 Dryad, -1 Grapeshot +2 Crimson Wisps, SB: -1 Swan Song or Bolt +1 Flesh//Blood.
I also think that Wishing for manamorphose can be awkward, and am wondering how to get 4 in the board. Lectrys?
Also, Dork Storm, Jeskai Storm, or Ascendancy Combo?
If your metagame is so infested with Aggro that you're thinking of running Oracle, i would either a) play sweepers MD or b) play a different deck, instead
As soon as I acquire Wurmcoils they're going in the board over Grudge.
And i've never really thought to bring out Remand vs. Jund all the time. I'm going to try that, even when on the Play. I liked it to be able to Remand a Lili into Cryptic Command (provided i had a Search T1), and keep Goyf/Bob off the table as long as possible while also providing a buffer to Lili's +1 (while on the play). I'm going to start trying that now; i haven't tested the MU much since adding Baloths, Baloth is likely a lot better against Lili than Remand. lol.
Lands 24
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
3 Treetop Village
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
It looked great aside from the lack of basic mountain to fetch. (This is, of course, only relevant for Olivia's ability and the want for RR or even RRR when you have her on board)
He's running the Blackcleaves, which after Khans comes out, I'm inclined to keep, as well. They're great vs. Burn and help with the intense mana costs of the cards Jund likes to cast. I'm willing to bet they'll stay included in the stock list, but only time will tell.
Aside from Courser, your early drops aren't very green intensive (I sort of count Scooze as a later game card), i think it's rare than you want more than 1 or 2 green mana symbols on your side of the field (And the inclusion of 1x Twilight Mire, 4x Verdant Catacombs, 4x Bloodstained Mire, 3-4x Treetop, 1-2x Raging Ravine and the number of basics and shocks seem to be plenty, without adding in 2-4x Wooded Foothills.)
Wooded Foothills fetching a T1 black source seems really awful when half the time that T1 blacksource is going to be Thoughtseizing. I'd much prefer dropping a tapped Blackcleave Cliffs late in the game if it means taking 4 less damage over the course of the game.
Not fetching twice versus Scapeshift is important, too. Blackcleave Cliffs vs. Foothills + Basics could be worth an entire turn.
I wouldn't tap out for it, no. But, i found it was a good way to get some tempo when i'm on 4 lands, at least. But, yeah, they're probably better spent on Flames/Skullcrack.