Mindbreak Trap is a horrible hate card. Even with discard or chant effects, it's extremely easy to play around. Turn 1, drop artifact mana. Turn 2, IT -> Ad Nauseam. I'm sure a discard effect will be in the 20 or so cards I draw. You really want hate cards that actually stop you from casting the "I win" spells. Teeg, Cannonist, and more countermagic / discard is the way to go.
It has no immediate impact on the game, less synergy with D-Force, and doesn't beat other Titans heads up.
Frost Titan immediately locks something down. He locks down their lands post D-Force to hinder their development ever further, and is the best answer this deck has to opposing Titans.
I don't see how a "Frost Titan vs Frost Titan" argument supports anything other than running Frost Titan.
For example:
You cast D-Force. You have any titan that isn't Frost Titan. They have a Frost Titan. Your titan is now perma tapped. You lose.
You cast D-Force. You have Frost Titan, they have Frost Titan. Whoever hits 2 lands first wins. Since you pulled the trigger on D-Force, and your deck is designed to take advantage of and rebuild from D-Force quicker than others, you're probably slightly favored here.
The point of playing Primeval Titan is card advantage, and a compelte domination after playing D force, like if I turn 4 Prime titan, then force your so out of the game its unbelievable. I admit I wouldn't put 4 prime, but 2 is more than warranted.
Infact there are 2 pilots online, that run a non-lotus cobra version and run 4 of both prime and frost.
If you turn 4 Frost Titan, then cast Force, guess what happens? You win. Seriously. Stop using the "If I cast this titan then cast D-Force I win" argument.
Primeval Titan is card advantage, sure. But it's crappy card advantage. You're fetching 2 lands that don't do anything other than produce 2 mana. That doesn't beat the Primeval Titan on the other side of the board that fetches out Valakuts and mountains.
The problem with this (in my relatively limited experience) is that unless you are playing a control angle, the board will have their Titan as well... So then it's like playing tag with hammer.
What? The play their titan. You play Frost Titan. Then cast D-Force. Who cares if their titan is in play if it's permatapped?
I understand the difference between the two and that's why I'm playing blue and not black. But his removal package is pretty awesome. And resolving a grave Titan should be game over if there is a Dforce. Your opponent can't spew out creatures faster then your tokens. The 1 of Chandra WINS games, like jace. But your Chandra won't be removed by another Chandra like jace will be. And she is a "anything" save eldrazi killer. And it's only 1 of, if you get it to early then brainstorm and fetch it away. But it seems pretty solid to me.
Why do people keep making the argument "Resolve this titan then cast D-Force and its game over"? That argument is horrible and has absolutely nothing to do with the power of the titan in play. It has to do with the power of D-Force. It doesn't matter which Titan is in play when you cast D-Force... you'll still win. You have a 6/6 in play. They have 1 land. It doesn't matter whether that 6/6 spews out 2 2/2s, bolts them, ices a land, fetches out 2 lands, gains you 6 life, etc etc etc. You have a 6/6 to their 1 land. You're going win.
The problem with Grave Titan is he doesn't answer the problem of your opponent resolving a Titan before you can D-Force. Frost Titan does.
Playing anything other than the max of 4 Frost Titans is wrong. If you wanna add more Titans after the 4 Frost Titans, go ahead. But max out the Frost Titans first. One of the biggest problems for the D-Force version of this deck is a resolved Titan. Frost Titan fixes that by locking their Titan down. Primeval Titan is garbage in this deck. You aren't doing anything broken with the lands you fetch... they aren't dealing damage and they aren't letting you play 15 mana I-Win cards. Sure, resolving a Primeval Titan then casting D-Force is nice cause it lets you rebuild your manabase quicker post D-Force. But that is completely irrelevant. You have a 6/6 creature in play, and your opponent probably has 1 land. He already lost. It doesn't really matter what bonus the 6/6 creature gives you at that point. What matters is which Titan gets you that point of the game (meaning the point where resolving D-Force is beneficial for you, not him), and that's Frost Titan.
So my question Is how do you deal with resolved Titan? And note the question...
How do YOU do it. Rely more on control? Into the roil the end of their turn then Dforce? Try to burn it out?
What are your thoughts on a 1of Chandra? Resolving Chandra then a Dforce should win you the game
Also my friend plays a jund colored Dforce deck, thoughts on that?
Bounce it with Jace. Bounce it with Into the Roil (if you play it). Tap it down with Frost Titan (which should be a 4 of over Primeval Titan for this very reason). D-Force + Bolt. Bolt + Bolt. Your reasoning for running Chandra isn't that great. It really doesn't matter what Planeswalker you resolve before you cast D-Force, it'll win you the game.... whether its Garruk, Chandra, Jace, etc. Jund D-Force means no Jace, Preordain, and Mana Leak. You lose all ability to filter and smooth your draws, making the deck less consistent and more clunky.
Playing Tect Edge in a deck that wants to consistently hit 7 mana, then cast a spell that causes your opponent to sac 5 lands (moving him out of Tect Edge range) seems a little suspect.
You're retarded if you choose to run less than 8 fetch lands. Why are you choosing to not play the best mana fixing this deck can give? Running 4 Mistys and 4 Tarns give you access to every color your deck needs AND gives you protection from Tectonic Edge. This deck's manabase is extremely solid.
Game 1 you aren't going to stop them from ramping and resolving a threat if they have even a half decent draw. They have too many ramp spells and too many threats to handle with just 4 Mana Leaks. Their Primeval Titan should also come down faster than yours. They play theirs, you play yours (and fetch 2 Tec Edges that come into play tapped), then they attack and kill you. Frost Titan stops all of this by keeping their Titan tapped. It buys you the time you need to cast D-Force and win.
Post board, you should have a combination of Mana Leak, Flashfreeze, and Spell Pierce. It gets much easier when you're running 10+ counters. I generally just counter all (or most of) their ramp, cast D-Force and win. I board out all Sorcery speed ramp like Cultivate. You don't want to be trying to out-ramp them, cause you won't. The exception is Garruk stays in, cause you can untap 2 and leave counter mana up. ALWAYS leave counter mana up if you can. That means don't cast turn 2 Explore (with Mana Leak or Flashfreeze in hand) if you can't follow it up with Island -> Spell Pierce. Even turn 4 Jace isn't as good as countering their Cultivate. To sum it up: don't try to outramp them, cause you'll lose if you try.
The match-up is closer to 60-40 than 50-50, if you load up on counters post board and max out on Frost Titans.
Bob + Raven's Crime is too slow. Leyline doesn't do actually anything. You play it, then I'll cast Ad Nauseam, draw 30 cards, bounce the Leyline, and kill you with Tendrils.
Turn 1 Chalice on 1 is pretty hard to beat, though. Have to get a pretty lucky hand to go off quickly through it.
I think the Hawks are awesome. You should at least try them. Vengevine recursion, discard fodder, free shuffle, chump blocking flyer, and always a target for Sun Titan to maximize board presence are the things I do with that card. Thought Hemo would definitely be bad so against Jund you'd have to be careful.
Plummet kills Baneslayer, which could pose a problem, yes?
Should I add Day of Judgement to my SB?
Anything else I am missing?
You have 3 Path main. Play a 4th Path in the SB, and add 2 Bant Charms to the board. That way, you have 6 answers to Baneslayer, which is what you're running now with a 3/3 split of Path and Plummet. The problem with plummet is that it is an extremely narrow card that is only going to be used to kill Baneslayer and Colonnades. Path does the same thing, but has the benefit of accelerating you or removing a Wall of Omens if you need to. Bant Charm also deals with Baneslayer, but has the benefit of countering their counters, Jace's Ingenuity, blowing up chalices/borderposts if you think they're short on mana, etc.
In summary, Plummet is too narrow. You can get the same effect from other cards that are useful in more situations than just killing Baneslayer Angels.
I play 2 DoJ in the SB for Mythic/Eldrazi Monument decks. It's been pretty good.
Are Squadron Hawks really needed? I've never played with them, and I don't have any problems recurring Vengevine. I also pretty much always have some creature in hand that I don't mind pitching to the Shaman. The Hawks play nice with Jace's brainstorm, but you already have an active Jace... so you're probably winning anyway. I'd rather just run a 1 of Ranger to fetch up when you need two creatures in 1 to get Vengevines back.
You should definitely be running Elspeth. It turns all your crappy creatures (Birds, Hierarchs, inactive Shamans, Hawks, etc) into late game threats.
Stoneforge Mystic isn't needed in this deck. The sword doesn't do all that much to impact the board. But if I did run Mystic, it would be for Behemoth Sledge, not the Sword. It not only breaks stalemates, but also gives you lifegain.
I don't think O-Ring is needed either. This deck shouldn't have a problem with Planewalkers. Between Vengevine, Elspeth's angelic blessing ability, and running Jace's of your own, enemy planewalkers should die pretty quickly. I'd rather have more instant speed removal to deal with Avengers, Sovereigns, etc.
@docbaltar
Your sideboard seems pretty bad. Plummet isn't needed vs. anything, and you have 12 cards that come in against RDW. I'd stick with the Purges and Flashes, because they have the most use in other match-ups. I'd drop all the Firewalkers, and leave 1 Baloth to tutor for. Play a 1-of Qasali Pridemage.
Mana Leak doesn't seem that great in this deck. Also, I keep siding in Sovereigns and Cobras so it looks less and less like NLB. In what matchups AREN'T Sovereigns good?
I don't understand the whole point of siding in Cobras + Sovereigns. I assume you're swapping them in for Wall of Omens when you need to come out quicker and win before they can establish their board. The problem, though, is that the decks you want to win early against are mainly the Titan/Destructive Force decks... and they're bringing in Forked Bolt, Cunning Sparkmage, Pyroclasm, etc. to deal with your fast starts. Siding in Cobras while they side in those cards seems pretty bad.
I don't know what other match-ups you really want to bring that package in against, either. The only one that seems viable would be against Mythic. Even then, your manabase isn't really constructed to take advantage of Cobra as much as theirs, so I'm not sure if that's even the best option.
I expect a lot of NLB decks to be siding the 4 Cobra, 2 Sovereigns package cause of Australia's national results. Anybody want to explain why it's good?
Frost Titan immediately locks something down. He locks down their lands post D-Force to hinder their development ever further, and is the best answer this deck has to opposing Titans.
Sphinx doesn't do any of that.
For example:
You cast D-Force. You have any titan that isn't Frost Titan. They have a Frost Titan. Your titan is now perma tapped. You lose.
You cast D-Force. You have Frost Titan, they have Frost Titan. Whoever hits 2 lands first wins. Since you pulled the trigger on D-Force, and your deck is designed to take advantage of and rebuild from D-Force quicker than others, you're probably slightly favored here.
If you turn 4 Frost Titan, then cast Force, guess what happens? You win. Seriously. Stop using the "If I cast this titan then cast D-Force I win" argument.
Primeval Titan is card advantage, sure. But it's crappy card advantage. You're fetching 2 lands that don't do anything other than produce 2 mana. That doesn't beat the Primeval Titan on the other side of the board that fetches out Valakuts and mountains.
What? The play their titan. You play Frost Titan. Then cast D-Force. Who cares if their titan is in play if it's permatapped?
Why do people keep making the argument "Resolve this titan then cast D-Force and its game over"? That argument is horrible and has absolutely nothing to do with the power of the titan in play. It has to do with the power of D-Force. It doesn't matter which Titan is in play when you cast D-Force... you'll still win. You have a 6/6 in play. They have 1 land. It doesn't matter whether that 6/6 spews out 2 2/2s, bolts them, ices a land, fetches out 2 lands, gains you 6 life, etc etc etc. You have a 6/6 to their 1 land. You're going win.
The problem with Grave Titan is he doesn't answer the problem of your opponent resolving a Titan before you can D-Force. Frost Titan does.
Bounce it with Jace. Bounce it with Into the Roil (if you play it). Tap it down with Frost Titan (which should be a 4 of over Primeval Titan for this very reason). D-Force + Bolt. Bolt + Bolt. Your reasoning for running Chandra isn't that great. It really doesn't matter what Planeswalker you resolve before you cast D-Force, it'll win you the game.... whether its Garruk, Chandra, Jace, etc. Jund D-Force means no Jace, Preordain, and Mana Leak. You lose all ability to filter and smooth your draws, making the deck less consistent and more clunky.
Playing Tect Edge in a deck that wants to consistently hit 7 mana, then cast a spell that causes your opponent to sac 5 lands (moving him out of Tect Edge range) seems a little suspect.
3 Copperline Gorge
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountains
3 Forests
6 Islands
Please refrain from using words like "retarded" to describe other peoples deck choices.
Game 1 you aren't going to stop them from ramping and resolving a threat if they have even a half decent draw. They have too many ramp spells and too many threats to handle with just 4 Mana Leaks. Their Primeval Titan should also come down faster than yours. They play theirs, you play yours (and fetch 2 Tec Edges that come into play tapped), then they attack and kill you. Frost Titan stops all of this by keeping their Titan tapped. It buys you the time you need to cast D-Force and win.
Post board, you should have a combination of Mana Leak, Flashfreeze, and Spell Pierce. It gets much easier when you're running 10+ counters. I generally just counter all (or most of) their ramp, cast D-Force and win. I board out all Sorcery speed ramp like Cultivate. You don't want to be trying to out-ramp them, cause you won't. The exception is Garruk stays in, cause you can untap 2 and leave counter mana up. ALWAYS leave counter mana up if you can. That means don't cast turn 2 Explore (with Mana Leak or Flashfreeze in hand) if you can't follow it up with Island -> Spell Pierce. Even turn 4 Jace isn't as good as countering their Cultivate. To sum it up: don't try to outramp them, cause you'll lose if you try.
The match-up is closer to 60-40 than 50-50, if you load up on counters post board and max out on Frost Titans.
Bob + Raven's Crime is too slow. Leyline doesn't do actually anything. You play it, then I'll cast Ad Nauseam, draw 30 cards, bounce the Leyline, and kill you with Tendrils.
Turn 1 Chalice on 1 is pretty hard to beat, though. Have to get a pretty lucky hand to go off quickly through it.
You have 3 Path main. Play a 4th Path in the SB, and add 2 Bant Charms to the board. That way, you have 6 answers to Baneslayer, which is what you're running now with a 3/3 split of Path and Plummet. The problem with plummet is that it is an extremely narrow card that is only going to be used to kill Baneslayer and Colonnades. Path does the same thing, but has the benefit of accelerating you or removing a Wall of Omens if you need to. Bant Charm also deals with Baneslayer, but has the benefit of countering their counters, Jace's Ingenuity, blowing up chalices/borderposts if you think they're short on mana, etc.
In summary, Plummet is too narrow. You can get the same effect from other cards that are useful in more situations than just killing Baneslayer Angels.
I play 2 DoJ in the SB for Mythic/Eldrazi Monument decks. It's been pretty good.
You should definitely be running Elspeth. It turns all your crappy creatures (Birds, Hierarchs, inactive Shamans, Hawks, etc) into late game threats.
Stoneforge Mystic isn't needed in this deck. The sword doesn't do all that much to impact the board. But if I did run Mystic, it would be for Behemoth Sledge, not the Sword. It not only breaks stalemates, but also gives you lifegain.
I don't think O-Ring is needed either. This deck shouldn't have a problem with Planewalkers. Between Vengevine, Elspeth's angelic blessing ability, and running Jace's of your own, enemy planewalkers should die pretty quickly. I'd rather have more instant speed removal to deal with Avengers, Sovereigns, etc.
@docbaltar
Your sideboard seems pretty bad. Plummet isn't needed vs. anything, and you have 12 cards that come in against RDW. I'd stick with the Purges and Flashes, because they have the most use in other match-ups. I'd drop all the Firewalkers, and leave 1 Baloth to tutor for. Play a 1-of Qasali Pridemage.
I don't understand the whole point of siding in Cobras + Sovereigns. I assume you're swapping them in for Wall of Omens when you need to come out quicker and win before they can establish their board. The problem, though, is that the decks you want to win early against are mainly the Titan/Destructive Force decks... and they're bringing in Forked Bolt, Cunning Sparkmage, Pyroclasm, etc. to deal with your fast starts. Siding in Cobras while they side in those cards seems pretty bad.
I don't know what other match-ups you really want to bring that package in against, either. The only one that seems viable would be against Mythic. Even then, your manabase isn't really constructed to take advantage of Cobra as much as theirs, so I'm not sure if that's even the best option.
I expect a lot of NLB decks to be siding the 4 Cobra, 2 Sovereigns package cause of Australia's national results. Anybody want to explain why it's good?