I don't see why you even have to use White - you can just use Pariah's Shield to keep it Mono-Black and easier on your manabase.
Cards like Maddening Imp will force your opponent to attack into Phyrexian Obliterator or suffer the consequences. Wall of Souls is another interesting choice for damage redirection, so is Stuffy Doll in conjunction with Pariah's Shield.
Using an instant-speed Reanimation strategy (like Makeshift Mannequin) adds something unique to the deck. This way your opponent will blindly attack into an Obliterator, making them sacrifice a bunch of permanents. Also great for just brining back an Obliterator after being destroyed. (Although Mannequin won't work with the Equipment).
Here's something you probably never expected - an Elephant Resurgence deck with only 8 creatures in it. A little preview of what to expect when playing this deck: Infinite 8/8 Flying, Hasted Elephant Tokens attacking to win.
Deck Concept: I find 2 drawbacks with Elephant Resurgence - 1, the fact that you have to play creatures, and 2, your opponent benefits as well. My deck ignores all of this by using Epic Experiment. The goal of the deck is to cast Epic Experiment with a large amount of mana, dump your entire library into your graveyard and cast every spell in your deck. Reiterate and Turnabout form an infinite mana combo that also allows for Infinite tokens. The best thing about Epic Experiment is that it puts all the creatures in the graveyard for you before Elephant Resurgence resolves. And since Anger and Wonder are going to the graveyard, that means you can win on the turn you cast your combo with Flying, Hasted tokens. The deck is a little difficult to pilot at first, but the combo is suprisingly consistent.
Individual Card Explanations:
- Epic Experiment - You can cast it early (X=1 or X=2) if you have the right cards set up via Scroll Rack. The combo goes off typically at 6-Lands + High Tide, or earliest at 4-lands + High Tide if you can stack the library properly with the combo pieces off Scroll Rack.
- Turnabout - Is part of an infinite mana combo with Reiterate. At 10-mana, you cast Turnabout, then copy it with Reiterate + Buyback. First Turnabout resolves, giving you back 10-mana, which you use to recast Reiterate + Buyback for 4-extra mana each time.
Of course 10-mana is a lot - you can do it at 6-land if you use this combo in conjunction with High Tide. If you have 2 Reiterates in your hand, then you can do it with 7-mana (don't buyback the first Reiterate). With Reiterate + Increasing Vengeance you can do this with 6-mana. Lastly this is possible at 4-land if you can pull off High Tide + Epic Experiment + Scroll Rack for Turnabout + Reiterate/Increasing Vengeance set up at the top of the library with another Reiterate in hand (though this is EXTREMELY unlikely).
Even without an infinite mana combo as long as you cast Epic Experiment for X=10 you'll generally be fine as you'll run into other combo pieces. The infinite mana is just a guarantee. You can also use Turnabout as a Fog effect in a pinch.
- High Tide - Remember that the effects stack. All of the lands in the deck are part Island or can get Islands. This really isn't used in the early game so just keep it around in your hand or on top of the library with Scroll Rack until you need it. Also regarding the Shocklands - I find that you can generally play these tapped without losing any tempo in this particular deck, so the lifeloss shouldn't be too much of an issue.
- Reiterate - You can cast this off Epic Experiment, but remember that Buyback must be paid during casting, so you can't do something like Turnabout off Epic Experiment to pay for the Buyback cost. You can circumvent this by leaving 3-mana floating prior to casting Epic Experiment, but this is generally not necessary.
- Remand - Serves 2 functions in here. First is obviously to protect the combo/stall a little in the early game. But the more important idea is its ability to return Epic Experiment and Reiterate off the top of the Library. For example, let's say you cast Epic Experiment for a Non-Infinite mana number, and flipped Turnabout + Reiterate off the top. This allows for 2 copies of Turnabout, and that may not be enough to win the game. However, if you have Remand, you can return Reiterate and then cast it with Buyback no problem. With Epic Experiment you can only cast it for X=0 if its off the library. You can use Remand to return it to your hand to play it for full.
- Past in Flames - This is just in case you used up all the Elephant Resurgence early in the game and don't have any left in the library. Also guarantees for any missing combo piece. Remember that Flashback triumps buyback so you can't use them in conjunction.
- Primal Command - Great for removal, but this is an important part of the combo. One of the choices is to have the opponent shuffle his/her graveyard into the library, so that your opponent's Elephant Resurgence tokens die immediately. Also allows you to remove something problematic like Ensnaring Bridge that may prevent a win.
- Mystical Tutor - It's too bad the card is banned/restricted in Legacy/Vintage. I know there is no banned list for this but I like to keep it legal. Use it to fetch whatever missing combo piece.
- Wood Elves - I am not using Taiga since I need the deck to be all Islands, but generally mana will not be a problem.
- Scroll Rack - The absolute backbone for this deck. Use it aggressively to find your combo pieces, and shuffle away unnecessary cards with the Fetchlands/Wood Elves. Make sure you shuffle back Anger and Wonder as these cards need to be in the Library to be put into the graveyard for Epic Experiment. If need be, it also prevents you from decking yourself once you've played out the entire deck.
Well that's it - thanks for reading if you've read all of that. The deck is quite fun to pilot (at least in real-life where you don't have to go through as many motions...). I hope you'll enjoy playing this deck as much as I have.
I have to admit I'm not following the Caller of the Claw plan either. Either you get the necessary mix of ramp and finishers or you don't. If you do, you go off and an army of 2/2s is completely redundant. If you don't, the only thing Caller of the Claw does is let you salvage some 2/2s off of bad accelerators (Llanowar Druid and Tinder Wall in particular), and I doubt that's enough to turn a losing game around.
Yes, the army of 2/2's is completely redundant, but that's not the important part. I didn't put it in the deck to create an army - that just happens to be a byproduct of how the deck progresses. I don't see what's so bad about getting an extra blocker or 2 in order to survive on to the next turn. And how are Llanowar Druid and Tinder Wall bad accelerators? Druid allows a Turn 3 Vernal Bloom + remaining mana, Tinder Wall does it on Turn 2. Speed is crucial for this combo. Mid-game they stay relevant too - untapping all Forests once I hit Vernal Bloom means I get to combo out on the same turn, and Tinder Wall allows a simple yet effective Red-Splash without having to run Mountains.
Of course it's not enough to turn a losing game around, but again, that's not the point. It's to survive Turn 3 so I get to see Turn 4. That's all there is to it.
The bears are completely redundant if your deck does its thing. That is, if you cast Primal Surge and win practically on the spot (or otherwise make a bazillion mana and kill people with Omnath or Masticore.) So what if you stack things so that you make 15 million bears before Helix Pinnacle says you win? All that accomplishes is you wasting your opponent's time. Is there a realistic scenario in which your opponent can deal with the Helix Pinnacle but not the bears?
Again, not the main point of the deck. The card's main purpose is to provide defense at instant speed. The fact that it creates the army of bears later on is just a bonus in case something goes terribly wrong, like if an opponent just happens to have Back to Nature handy.
All I need is 1 bear for the next block, so that means with the bear + Caller I have 2 blockers. I'm not sacrificing the mana-dorks to get bears. I don't understand what's so underwhelming about getting two 2/2 blockers at instant speed for 3-mana. Let me reiterate - I am not sacrificing creatures to get more bears. I only play it after other creatures block and die.
Bears are just bears. The rest of your deck is not set up for you to win with bears if all else fails, so the best you can do with them is block. There's a limit to the amount of blocking that bears can do without trading off. Considering that your opponent could have a trick to blow out a double block, I'd say you'd be exceeding expectations if you manage to turn Caller of the Claw into Wrath of God.
I am never attacking with the bears unless after Primal Surge hits and all of my other win-conditions fail. The best I can do with them is block? That's the whole point. This deck just needs to buy 1~2 turns, not stall forever.
You can't ambush stuff if you block and then sac. You have to sac stuff before blocking. You're not taking any damage either way, so you're essentially paying for the ambush with free blocks that you would otherwise have had. These free blocks are what makes cards like Sakura-Tribe Elder good. Without that, it's just Rampant Growth.
Obviously. And you're misinterpreting my scenarios. If I have Sakura-Tribe Elder out, I block a creature then I sacrifice it to its ability to fetch a land. Then EOT I play Caller of the Claw to have 2 blockers for the next turn. I am not wasting a block.
This is ludicrous. Not only do you not admit your own mistakes, you continue to ramble on as if you were correct. <This has to be some newly discovered MTG-related mental illness.> [and more]
what's "not entertaining" is the odds of pulling off a turn 4 Primal Surge and doing everything you want it to do.
Exactly what part of Ring of Ma'Rûf do you not understand. Do you realize this effectively allows me to run 5 copies of Primal Surge? Mirri's Guile, Shuffle effects, Ring of Ma'Rûf. I'd say I pretty much maximized what I can do to make sure I get Primal Surge when I need it. The consistency of the combo is fine. The consistency in your reasoning is not.
if you want the Primal Surge to dump your entire library on the table, then [back to my original point] what is the point of Caller of the Claw? what purpose does creating an army of bears net you if you're gonna win next turn if you pull your entire scenario off? [if there was an Ashnod's Altar, then maybe].
I've said this MULTIPLE, MULTIPLE, MULTIPLE times. What is so difficult to understand, about using it as a surprise defensive blocker that capitalizes on cards already going to the graveyard? This is not freaking rocket science. In the late-game off Primal Surge, attacking with the army of bears is a back-up strategy if for some reason my Helix Pinnacle gets removed by something like Back to Nature. Alternatively, it also allows me to survive my opponent's attack phase if they have lots of creatures out. Therefore Caller is a good card early game and late game.
you're so bent on the strategy of Primal Surge you're not considering alternative strategies in case the Surge is countered or on the very bottom of your deck.
This infuriates me the most. For one thing, considering this is a deck specifically built around Primal Surge, WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT THAT'S OBVIOUSLY THE STRATEGY I'M GOING FOR?! Countered? Then I use Eternal Witness or Ring of Ma'Rûf to get another. Bottom of the deck? Shufflers, Mirri's Guile, and again, Ring of Ma'Rûf.
Not to mention, you haven't even suggested any alternate strategies! All of your "suggestions" involve either A) Redundant Mana-Combos, or B) Redundant damage combos!
I will agree with you- Overlaid Terrain: bad late game card. but consider the possibilities of using the Guile to stack the deck so in the case of a T5-6 Surge, it's the first thing to get flipped. oh boo-hoo, you lost what 3-5 lands out of 23?
but at that point, it's a win-more ain't it?
You're basically asking me to risk shooting myself in the foot here with THE POSSIBILITY, that Overlaid Terrain remains on top when I resolve Primal Surge. So what, I'm supposed to use it as a Singleton-Screw-Me-Over card? For a card that is REDUNDANT and INFERIOR?
The fact that you suggest I should consider an entire-library stacking strategy for the SOLE PURPOSE, of getting Overlaid Terrain off the top of my library off Primal Surge, shows that you're not playing in the realm of reality.
*sigh* Sorry for waste both our time- obvisiously. i'm the kind of player who likes contingencies, running all my bets on one
Your so called "contingencies" have no chances of occuring nor being viable. If you want to continue being a terrible deckbuilder so be it, but don't pollute my thread with your terrible suggestions. I've said it to you multiple times and I'll say it again: if you're going to criticize, do it right.
I thought the point of your deck was to generate a mass boon of mana to win via Helix Pinnacle in one fell swoop; not play your entire library via Primal Surge...
i still say a Mana Echoes Tribal to Primal Surge everything on to the field would be entertaining.
This post really shows that you don't understand my deck, nor did you bother to read the original post. Primal Surge is exactly what allows me "to generate a mass boon of mana to win via Helix Pinnacle". From my original post:
So the primary goal of the deck is to cast Primal Surge, putting into play your entire library. This means you get 4 Vernal Bloom + Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, multiplying your mana-output by 6 while also putting Helix Pinnacle into play, winning on the next upkeep.
There are so many things wrong with the idea of using Mana Echoes in here, that I'm not even going to bother going into all the details. In short, Tribal Mana Echoes is so unoriginal and unfitting in here that just the thought of it makes me cringe. But on the topic of the combo being "entertaining" - exactly what part of Primal Surge --> ~17 Forests From the Library to Battlefield Untapped + 4 Vernal Bloom + Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger --> 17 mana x 6 --> 102 mana --> Helix Pinnacle Win is not entertaining enough for you?
I was wondering on exactly when the cards from Epic Experiment hit the graveyard. For example, if I cast Epic Experiment for 5, and got 4 creatures and Songs of the Damned, would the 4 creatures count toward the Songs total or not?
At the earliest for you to pull off a Primal Surge is turn 4, but that'd be reliant on getting the vernal bloom out turn 3 and that means sac'ing a Tinder Wall or Sakura to get the mana needed- which won't boost the number of Bears you'd get from Caller of the Claw.
I'm not sure why you're focusing so much on Caller of the Claw for this particular statement. If I got a Primal Surge on Turn 4, who cares about Caller of the Claw in the early game? It's just a stall tactic that capitalizes on my creatures going to the graveyard. Even if I get just 1 creature off something that I'm going to sacrifice anyway, it's fine.
I believe I said, "at best". Not to mention I have Urabrask the Hidden and Akroma's Memorial in the Wishboard specifically for the Llanowar Druids' haste issue. And yeah, so what if I sacrificed a few creatures to get some cards out early? I'm putting in every single other creature with Primal Surge so all of this adds up to a considerable amount of tokens when 2 Caller of the Claw come in.
also, i don't think you can interrupt the chain of Primal Surge- the effects of slapping down permanents would take precedence before the Caller can spit out bears. so you'd have to sad everything before you cast the Surge...
Caller of the Claw could be a mana engine if you think about Mana Echoes. which would be slapped down with the Surge, and all the bears would trigger the Echoes simultaneously- so you'd get 20+ mana with all the bears you'd get.
Mana Echoes is no good until I hit Primal Surge. I need cards to be relevant before the Surge or at least help me cast it like Vernal Bloom. It's not necessary.
My mana sources have to be lands in order to fully take advantage of Vernal Bloom. This is why I didn't use cards like Lotus Cobra or Llanowar Elves. Tinder Wall is an exception because it fits the rest of the deck very well. I also don't have enough expendable creatures to sacrifice to the Altars or Vaults. If I'm going to sacrifice creatures, it's for their effects, not to fuel another sac-outlet.
again on that point, Barishi or Rooting Kavu with an aforementioned sac'engine to shuffle things back into your library (caller would have already counted them) before you get a Surge flowing. [Barishi/Kavu wouldn't break the chain as Repopulate or Piper's Melody would.] Them, or possibly Bearscape to get more mana from a CotC/Echoes engine...
By the time I get cast Primal Surge there are usually only 4~5 cards in the graveyard, and they are not worth returning back. Besides, this is not necessary because I have Eternal Witness. When the 2 Eternal Witnesses enter off Primal Surge I can simply recast whatever crucial card I may need from the graveyard.
I know we haven't gotten along in the past. I'm just tossing ideas out there, while considering the deck as a whole. I hope you're taking to consideration my ideas, without the "grrr- i really don't like this guy" disdain.
The reason we don't get along is because I hate advice that hasn't been fully thought out. For example, you suggest cards like Concordant Crossroads and Fires of Yavimaya for haste when I've already taken that into account, or cards that are inferior to what I already have in the deck - like Overlaid Terrain which is a terrible suggestion and same goes for Land Grant.
All of this tells me you don't know what my deck does, even though I posted a nice long explanation for those who wanted to read it. At the very least you could have read what Primal Surge does.
Straight from the Gatherer Rulings:
5/1/2012: If putting any of those permanent cards onto the battlefield causes abilities to trigger, those abilities will wait to go on the stack until Primal Surge has finished resolving. Starting with the active player, each player puts his or her abilities on the stack in any order.
When you question the core of my deck by saying stuff like how Primal Surge can't be interrupted when that's not what I'm doing in this deck, you're also making me look bad. The point is, if you're going to criticize a portion of the deck, do it right.
Then I suggest Mercy Killing which works well with Primal Forcemage pumps + for removal. Perhaps Momentous Fall as well to fully take advantage of the power increases. Ooze Garden is also interesting even with just 1-activation, as even a 1/1, if pumped by Forcemage + Silverheart, becomes a 8/8, then when sacrificed to Garden, comes in as a 12/12 soulbonded to Silverheart.
I don't think you're fully taking advantage of the Forcemage interaction with just blocking. Using Concordant Crossroads to attack with the pumps would be nice as well. (Then in the above example, you'd have a 15/15 Hasty Ooze token). Can you imagine attacking with all those 3/3 Mercy Killing tokens?
Focusing more on Yeva - adding a haste component now allows you take a little more advantage of tapping cards like Tree of Redemption and Somberwald Sage. Tree of Redemption works nicely with the pumping cards, and the Sage is essentially free with haste (kind of like the Cutter). All of these work well even without haste, as they dodge the Sorcery-based removal they are typically weak against. I think you should consider them.
Have you considered Overlaid Terrain to bolster your mana production? if you're lucky, it's can be a 2-turn bomb. Being able to double all your mana, and get a boost from Vernal Bloom... win-win right?
Throw in Land Grant and if your hand is empty, you got a land you could play next turn.
Same with Land Grant. This messes up the Primal Surge chain, and the effect is not even necessary here. The deck is not short on lands.
I honestly don't like Caller of the Claw... at best, you may get three to four bears, if you get all the fetchers out... sac'ing creatures just so you can replace them with 2/2 Bears is, imo, a wasted slot that Seeker of Skybreak, Wirewood Symbiote or Quiron Ranger could fill to untap Rofellos.
Actually, at best Caller of the Claw allows you to get 28 creatures out. The purpose is to combo off Primal Surge. You put in all of your creatures, then while the 2 Caller of the Claw triggers are on the stack, sacrifice all of your sacrificeable creatures to get a bunch of creatures.
Considering I only have 1 creature that actually taps for anything, Seeker, Symbiote and Ranger all would be huge wastes of a slot. They don't contribute anything to the overall combo at all.
What's the possibility of Goblin Cannon (or the far inferior, but still my favorite) Rocket Launcher as an alt-win condition?
Considering that even Wood Elemental would be a viable win-condition in this deck, Rocket Launcher is okay, but it's not a must-include by any means. I stick with win-conditions that circumvent bad situations (like Helix Pinnacle for cards that have an insurmounting advantage against me, Biorhythm for creatureless decks, Banefire for decks that use prevention/counter, etc). However the fact that you can't use Rocket Launcher right away is a huge issue, so I definitely will not be including it.
I wanted to post a special deck for my 100th thread, something that represents me as a MTG player and deckbuilder. So a little bit about me: I like my decks to be creative and unique, but still viable and powerful. I enjoy taking overused archtypes like mana-combos and building a completely new take on the deck. I also like my decks to be well-rounded, so I have an overtendency to use the Wishes of Judgment.
So in order to showcase myself and my 100th thread, I decided to build an interesting deck with Helix Pinnacle, which requires 100 counters to win. It was particularly difficult to come up with a creative way to approach this as most mana combos are already well-known or overused. Eventually I went with Primal Surge, and in order to overcome the 1-copy drawback of Surge, I used 'Rûf" target="blank">Ring of Ma'Rûf, which also allows me to incorporate the feeling of the Wishes. The brilliant part of using the Rings is that it allows you to replace a draw step, overcoming another drawback of the Surge.
So the primary goal of the deck is to cast Primal Surge, putting into play your entire library. This means you get 4 Vernal Bloom + Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, multiplying your mana-output by 6 while also putting Helix Pinnacle into play, winning on the next upkeep. The deck looks rather plain, but if you look closely you'll see that this is no ordinary mana deck. I'd like to hear your thoughts and suggestions on it. Card Explanations:
- Caller of the Claw is to benefit from all the sacrificing creatures, and then eventually combo with Primal Surge to put in a bunch of creatures.
- Eternal Witness - Allows me to recycle everything, but more importantly it covers a key weakness of the deck. If you use 'Rûf" target="blank">Ring of Ma'Rûf to grab Primal Surge from the Sideboard, it means you're going to run into the Primal Surge in the mainboard. One solution would be to keep all the Surges in the side, but that can be troublesome. I decided to use Eternal Witness to simply recast the card. This of course isn't a perfect solution - but hopefully I will run into one of the 2 Witnesses or 3 additional rings off the 1st Primal Surge so it doesn't become a dud if it hits the 2nd Primal Surge too early.
- Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - I really didn't want to include this, but the deck needed an "Extra Turn" effect too. Maybe I'll replace it with Final Fortune since it overshadows the purpose of the deck too much?
I question the lack of removal in the deck, I suppose it's not necessary if I can just focus solely on the combo. Perhaps something like Lignify/Utopia Vow/Arboria will be okay.
I'd like to keep the only non-permanent spell in the maindeck as Primal Surge, so please don't suggest instants/sorceries for the maindeck. As far as the sideboard, anything goes so I'd especially like to hear your thoughts on good targets for that. Thank you for reading! And as always, comments/suggestions are always appreciated.
I think you should diversify the deck a bit - for example Bramblecrush covers land destruction in addition to any other non-creature permanent. Acidic Slime would be great as well.
If you have Hull Breach I would use that instead of Naturalize and Ancient Grudge, unless you really want them to be at instant speed (though with Price of Glory, I can't see why you would want instant speed)
Let's say I play Caller of the Claw, and its ability goes on the stack. Can I sacrifice a bunch of creatures before the ability resolves in order to increase the number of tokens I get? Or is the number of tokens I get set in stone upon the trigger and not the resolution?
Cards like Maddening Imp will force your opponent to attack into Phyrexian Obliterator or suffer the consequences. Wall of Souls is another interesting choice for damage redirection, so is Stuffy Doll in conjunction with Pariah's Shield.
Using an instant-speed Reanimation strategy (like Makeshift Mannequin) adds something unique to the deck. This way your opponent will blindly attack into an Obliterator, making them sacrifice a bunch of permanents. Also great for just brining back an Obliterator after being destroyed. (Although Mannequin won't work with the Equipment).
2 Elephant Resurgence
4 Epic Experiment
4 Turnabout
3 Reiterate
1 Increasing Vengeance
4 High Tide
2 Remand
1 Past in Flames
1 Primal Command
1 Devastation Tide
1 Temporal Mastery
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Steam Vents
4 Breeding Pool
1 Island
Creatures 8
3 Coiling Oracle
3 Wood Elves
1 Wonder
1 Anger
3 Scroll Rack
Individual Card Explanations:
- Epic Experiment - You can cast it early (X=1 or X=2) if you have the right cards set up via Scroll Rack. The combo goes off typically at 6-Lands + High Tide, or earliest at 4-lands + High Tide if you can stack the library properly with the combo pieces off Scroll Rack.
- Turnabout - Is part of an infinite mana combo with Reiterate. At 10-mana, you cast Turnabout, then copy it with Reiterate + Buyback. First Turnabout resolves, giving you back 10-mana, which you use to recast Reiterate + Buyback for 4-extra mana each time.
Of course 10-mana is a lot - you can do it at 6-land if you use this combo in conjunction with High Tide. If you have 2 Reiterates in your hand, then you can do it with 7-mana (don't buyback the first Reiterate). With Reiterate + Increasing Vengeance you can do this with 6-mana. Lastly this is possible at 4-land if you can pull off High Tide + Epic Experiment + Scroll Rack for Turnabout + Reiterate/Increasing Vengeance set up at the top of the library with another Reiterate in hand (though this is EXTREMELY unlikely).
Even without an infinite mana combo as long as you cast Epic Experiment for X=10 you'll generally be fine as you'll run into other combo pieces. The infinite mana is just a guarantee. You can also use Turnabout as a Fog effect in a pinch.
- High Tide - Remember that the effects stack. All of the lands in the deck are part Island or can get Islands. This really isn't used in the early game so just keep it around in your hand or on top of the library with Scroll Rack until you need it. Also regarding the Shocklands - I find that you can generally play these tapped without losing any tempo in this particular deck, so the lifeloss shouldn't be too much of an issue.
- Reiterate - You can cast this off Epic Experiment, but remember that Buyback must be paid during casting, so you can't do something like Turnabout off Epic Experiment to pay for the Buyback cost. You can circumvent this by leaving 3-mana floating prior to casting Epic Experiment, but this is generally not necessary.
- Remand - Serves 2 functions in here. First is obviously to protect the combo/stall a little in the early game. But the more important idea is its ability to return Epic Experiment and Reiterate off the top of the Library. For example, let's say you cast Epic Experiment for a Non-Infinite mana number, and flipped Turnabout + Reiterate off the top. This allows for 2 copies of Turnabout, and that may not be enough to win the game. However, if you have Remand, you can return Reiterate and then cast it with Buyback no problem. With Epic Experiment you can only cast it for X=0 if its off the library. You can use Remand to return it to your hand to play it for full.
- Past in Flames - This is just in case you used up all the Elephant Resurgence early in the game and don't have any left in the library. Also guarantees for any missing combo piece. Remember that Flashback triumps buyback so you can't use them in conjunction.
- Primal Command - Great for removal, but this is an important part of the combo. One of the choices is to have the opponent shuffle his/her graveyard into the library, so that your opponent's Elephant Resurgence tokens die immediately. Also allows you to remove something problematic like Ensnaring Bridge that may prevent a win.
- Devastation Tide, Temporal Mastery and Ancestral Vision - All of these are used with Scroll Rack or Mystical Tutor. Remember you can ast Ancestral Vision with Epic Experiment set at X=1.
- Mystical Tutor - It's too bad the card is banned/restricted in Legacy/Vintage. I know there is no banned list for this but I like to keep it legal. Use it to fetch whatever missing combo piece.
- Coiling Oracle - This is early mana ramp when used with Scroll Rack, or just as a cantripper.
- Wood Elves - I am not using Taiga since I need the deck to be all Islands, but generally mana will not be a problem.
- Scroll Rack - The absolute backbone for this deck. Use it aggressively to find your combo pieces, and shuffle away unnecessary cards with the Fetchlands/Wood Elves. Make sure you shuffle back Anger and Wonder as these cards need to be in the Library to be put into the graveyard for Epic Experiment. If need be, it also prevents you from decking yourself once you've played out the entire deck.
Yes, the army of 2/2's is completely redundant, but that's not the important part. I didn't put it in the deck to create an army - that just happens to be a byproduct of how the deck progresses. I don't see what's so bad about getting an extra blocker or 2 in order to survive on to the next turn. And how are Llanowar Druid and Tinder Wall bad accelerators? Druid allows a Turn 3 Vernal Bloom + remaining mana, Tinder Wall does it on Turn 2. Speed is crucial for this combo. Mid-game they stay relevant too - untapping all Forests once I hit Vernal Bloom means I get to combo out on the same turn, and Tinder Wall allows a simple yet effective Red-Splash without having to run Mountains.
Of course it's not enough to turn a losing game around, but again, that's not the point. It's to survive Turn 3 so I get to see Turn 4. That's all there is to it.
Again, not the main point of the deck. The card's main purpose is to provide defense at instant speed. The fact that it creates the army of bears later on is just a bonus in case something goes terribly wrong, like if an opponent just happens to have Back to Nature handy.
All I need is 1 bear for the next block, so that means with the bear + Caller I have 2 blockers. I'm not sacrificing the mana-dorks to get bears. I don't understand what's so underwhelming about getting two 2/2 blockers at instant speed for 3-mana. Let me reiterate - I am not sacrificing creatures to get more bears. I only play it after other creatures block and die.
I am never attacking with the bears unless after Primal Surge hits and all of my other win-conditions fail. The best I can do with them is block? That's the whole point. This deck just needs to buy 1~2 turns, not stall forever.
Obviously. And you're misinterpreting my scenarios. If I have Sakura-Tribe Elder out, I block a creature then I sacrifice it to its ability to fetch a land. Then EOT I play Caller of the Claw to have 2 blockers for the next turn. I am not wasting a block.
In no circumstance was it supposed to be a Wrath of God. If I decided to include another option, it would be Elephant Grass.
Exactly what part of Ring of Ma'Rûf do you not understand. Do you realize this effectively allows me to run 5 copies of Primal Surge? Mirri's Guile, Shuffle effects, Ring of Ma'Rûf. I'd say I pretty much maximized what I can do to make sure I get Primal Surge when I need it. The consistency of the combo is fine. The consistency in your reasoning is not.
I've said this MULTIPLE, MULTIPLE, MULTIPLE times. What is so difficult to understand, about using it as a surprise defensive blocker that capitalizes on cards already going to the graveyard? This is not freaking rocket science. In the late-game off Primal Surge, attacking with the army of bears is a back-up strategy if for some reason my Helix Pinnacle gets removed by something like Back to Nature. Alternatively, it also allows me to survive my opponent's attack phase if they have lots of creatures out. Therefore Caller is a good card early game and late game.
This infuriates me the most. For one thing, considering this is a deck specifically built around Primal Surge, WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT THAT'S OBVIOUSLY THE STRATEGY I'M GOING FOR?! Countered? Then I use Eternal Witness or Ring of Ma'Rûf to get another. Bottom of the deck? Shufflers, Mirri's Guile, and again, Ring of Ma'Rûf.
And allow me to highlight the "alternate strategies" that you claim that I don't have:
1. Omnath, Locus of Mana - Wins games on its own.
2. Molten-Tail Masticore - Wins games on its own.
3. Ring of Ma'Rûf into Biorhythm, Banefire, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, all possible with the mana production of this deck even without Primal Surge.
Not to mention, you haven't even suggested any alternate strategies! All of your "suggestions" involve either A) Redundant Mana-Combos, or B) Redundant damage combos!
You're basically asking me to risk shooting myself in the foot here with THE POSSIBILITY, that Overlaid Terrain remains on top when I resolve Primal Surge. So what, I'm supposed to use it as a Singleton-Screw-Me-Over card? For a card that is REDUNDANT and INFERIOR?
The fact that you suggest I should consider an entire-library stacking strategy for the SOLE PURPOSE, of getting Overlaid Terrain off the top of my library off Primal Surge, shows that you're not playing in the realm of reality.
Your so called "contingencies" have no chances of occuring nor being viable. If you want to continue being a terrible deckbuilder so be it, but don't pollute my thread with your terrible suggestions. I've said it to you multiple times and I'll say it again: if you're going to criticize, do it right.
You're doing it wrong.
flame infraction.
blut
This post really shows that you don't understand my deck, nor did you bother to read the original post. Primal Surge is exactly what allows me "to generate a mass boon of mana to win via Helix Pinnacle". From my original post:
There are so many things wrong with the idea of using Mana Echoes in here, that I'm not even going to bother going into all the details. In short, Tribal Mana Echoes is so unoriginal and unfitting in here that just the thought of it makes me cringe. But on the topic of the combo being "entertaining" - exactly what part of Primal Surge --> ~17 Forests From the Library to Battlefield Untapped + 4 Vernal Bloom + Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger --> 17 mana x 6 --> 102 mana --> Helix Pinnacle Win is not entertaining enough for you?
I'm not sure why you're focusing so much on Caller of the Claw for this particular statement. If I got a Primal Surge on Turn 4, who cares about Caller of the Claw in the early game? It's just a stall tactic that capitalizes on my creatures going to the graveyard. Even if I get just 1 creature off something that I'm going to sacrifice anyway, it's fine.
I believe I said, "at best". Not to mention I have Urabrask the Hidden and Akroma's Memorial in the Wishboard specifically for the Llanowar Druids' haste issue. And yeah, so what if I sacrificed a few creatures to get some cards out early? I'm putting in every single other creature with Primal Surge so all of this adds up to a considerable amount of tokens when 2 Caller of the Claw come in.
I am not interrupting anything. All of the triggers off Primal Surge wait until I end the chain, meaning when everything in my library has been put on the battlefield, the Caller of the Claw triggers then go on the stack. At this point I can sacrifice all of the Tinder Walls, Sakura-Tribe Elders and Diligent Farmhands to maximize what I get out of Caller of the Claw.
Mana Echoes is no good until I hit Primal Surge. I need cards to be relevant before the Surge or at least help me cast it like Vernal Bloom. It's not necessary.
My mana sources have to be lands in order to fully take advantage of Vernal Bloom. This is why I didn't use cards like Lotus Cobra or Llanowar Elves. Tinder Wall is an exception because it fits the rest of the deck very well. I also don't have enough expendable creatures to sacrifice to the Altars or Vaults. If I'm going to sacrifice creatures, it's for their effects, not to fuel another sac-outlet.
By the time I get cast Primal Surge there are usually only 4~5 cards in the graveyard, and they are not worth returning back. Besides, this is not necessary because I have Eternal Witness. When the 2 Eternal Witnesses enter off Primal Surge I can simply recast whatever crucial card I may need from the graveyard.
The reason we don't get along is because I hate advice that hasn't been fully thought out. For example, you suggest cards like Concordant Crossroads and Fires of Yavimaya for haste when I've already taken that into account, or cards that are inferior to what I already have in the deck - like Overlaid Terrain which is a terrible suggestion and same goes for Land Grant.
All of this tells me you don't know what my deck does, even though I posted a nice long explanation for those who wanted to read it. At the very least you could have read what Primal Surge does.
Straight from the Gatherer Rulings:
When you question the core of my deck by saying stuff like how Primal Surge can't be interrupted when that's not what I'm doing in this deck, you're also making me look bad. The point is, if you're going to criticize a portion of the deck, do it right.
I don't think you're fully taking advantage of the Forcemage interaction with just blocking. Using Concordant Crossroads to attack with the pumps would be nice as well. (Then in the above example, you'd have a 15/15 Hasty Ooze token). Can you imagine attacking with all those 3/3 Mercy Killing tokens?
Focusing more on Yeva - adding a haste component now allows you take a little more advantage of tapping cards like Tree of Redemption and Somberwald Sage. Tree of Redemption works nicely with the pumping cards, and the Sage is essentially free with haste (kind of like the Cutter). All of these work well even without haste, as they dodge the Sorcery-based removal they are typically weak against. I think you should consider them.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do here with Primal Forcemage and Skyshroud Cutter. Could you elaborate more on the deck?
Absolutely not... I would in no circumstance want to run into Overlaid Terrain off Primal Surge.
Same with Land Grant. This messes up the Primal Surge chain, and the effect is not even necessary here. The deck is not short on lands.
Actually, at best Caller of the Claw allows you to get 28 creatures out. The purpose is to combo off Primal Surge. You put in all of your creatures, then while the 2 Caller of the Claw triggers are on the stack, sacrifice all of your sacrificeable creatures to get a bunch of creatures.
Considering I only have 1 creature that actually taps for anything, Seeker, Symbiote and Ranger all would be huge wastes of a slot. They don't contribute anything to the overall combo at all.
Considering that even Wood Elemental would be a viable win-condition in this deck, Rocket Launcher is okay, but it's not a must-include by any means. I stick with win-conditions that circumvent bad situations (like Helix Pinnacle for cards that have an insurmounting advantage against me, Biorhythm for creatureless decks, Banefire for decks that use prevention/counter, etc). However the fact that you can't use Rocket Launcher right away is a huge issue, so I definitely will not be including it.
23 Forest
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
Creatures 22
2 Tinder Wall
4 Diligent Farmhand
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Llanowar Druid
2 Caller of the Claw
2 Eternal Witness
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Omnath, Locus of Mana
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
1 Helix Pinnacle
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Vernal Bloom
Artifacts 4
4 Ring of Ma'Rûf
Non-Permanent Spells 1
1 Primal Surge
1 Helix Pinnacle
1 Primal Surge
1 Epic Struggle
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gilt-Leaf Archdruid
1 Primal Command
1 Caged Sun
1 Urabrask the Hidden
1 Biorhythm
1 Vitalizing Wind
1 Banefire
1 Red Sun's Zenith
1 Akroma's Memorial
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
So in order to showcase myself and my 100th thread, I decided to build an interesting deck with Helix Pinnacle, which requires 100 counters to win. It was particularly difficult to come up with a creative way to approach this as most mana combos are already well-known or overused. Eventually I went with Primal Surge, and in order to overcome the 1-copy drawback of Surge, I used 'Rûf" target="blank">Ring of Ma'Rûf, which also allows me to incorporate the feeling of the Wishes. The brilliant part of using the Rings is that it allows you to replace a draw step, overcoming another drawback of the Surge.
So the primary goal of the deck is to cast Primal Surge, putting into play your entire library. This means you get 4 Vernal Bloom + Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, multiplying your mana-output by 6 while also putting Helix Pinnacle into play, winning on the next upkeep. The deck looks rather plain, but if you look closely you'll see that this is no ordinary mana deck. I'd like to hear your thoughts and suggestions on it.
Card Explanations:
- Caller of the Claw is to benefit from all the sacrificing creatures, and then eventually combo with Primal Surge to put in a bunch of creatures.
- Eternal Witness - Allows me to recycle everything, but more importantly it covers a key weakness of the deck. If you use 'Rûf" target="blank">Ring of Ma'Rûf to grab Primal Surge from the Sideboard, it means you're going to run into the Primal Surge in the mainboard. One solution would be to keep all the Surges in the side, but that can be troublesome. I decided to use Eternal Witness to simply recast the card. This of course isn't a perfect solution - but hopefully I will run into one of the 2 Witnesses or 3 additional rings off the 1st Primal Surge so it doesn't become a dud if it hits the 2nd Primal Surge too early.
- Omnath, Locus of Mana and Molten-Tail Masticore are alternate win-conditions that are also viable even without all of the mana.
- Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger is a great card that fuels the mana production while disrupting your opponent.
- Mirri's Guile allows the deck to be consistent, and its great with the 8 shuffle effects.
- Mikokoro, Center of the Sea - Having basic Forests is important in the deck so I can use Vernal Bloom to the fullest extent. However 'Rûf" target="blank">Ring of Ma'Rûf requires a draw to be effective, so if I want to use it on the same turn I drop it with Primal Surge, I need something like Mikokoro.
Wishboard:
- Epic Struggle is another win-condition if for some reason I can't reach 100-mana. It combines well with Caller of the Claw. Biorhythm and Vitalizing Wind also combine well with Caller.
- Gilt-Leaf Archdruid is if I need disruption after resolving Primal Surge. There are 8 other druids maindeck.
- Caged Sun is another mana-buffer which I can fetch off the side, if I haven't run into Vernal Bloom in the main.
- Akroma's Memorial + Urabrask the Hidden - Sometimes I will have to give haste to Llanowar Druid. Also allows the Caller tokens to attack right away if need be.
- Banefire + Red Sun's Zenith - This is played with the Red mana from Tinder Wall. Zenith is great for not decking out.
- Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - I really didn't want to include this, but the deck needed an "Extra Turn" effect too. Maybe I'll replace it with Final Fortune since it overshadows the purpose of the deck too much?
One of the goals of the deck was to keep all the cards relevant, so I decided not to use cards like Doubling Season, Doubling Cube and Rings of Brighthearth, all of which combine well with Helix Pinnacle, but are not necessary at all times. I also considered Viridian Emissary, Dawntreader Elk, Yavimaya Elder and Magus of the Candelabra, as additional mana sources, but they don't guarantee me a Turn 3 Vernal Bloom.
I question the lack of removal in the deck, I suppose it's not necessary if I can just focus solely on the combo. Perhaps something like Lignify/Utopia Vow/Arboria will be okay.
I'd like to keep the only non-permanent spell in the maindeck as Primal Surge, so please don't suggest instants/sorceries for the maindeck. As far as the sideboard, anything goes so I'd especially like to hear your thoughts on good targets for that. Thank you for reading! And as always, comments/suggestions are always appreciated.
If you have Hull Breach I would use that instead of Naturalize and Ancient Grudge, unless you really want them to be at instant speed (though with Price of Glory, I can't see why you would want instant speed)