I didn't even know darkest hour was a card.
So broken. Sacrifice 3 creatures to exile an opponents creature. Get 3 new creatures. Locks the board with one card.
Well, it shuts off Teysa, Orzhov Scion's first ability. You can't sac White creatures because they are no longer white. But, it creatures infinite sacrifices.
Imp's Mischief has been amazing, added it recently because I found I had trouble against blue players and their Force of Wills. It answers both counter spells and removal spells for your combo pieces which is insane! No one really expects a card like that out of Black and White either, it's pretty sweet.
Sadistic Hypnotist was in the original list, it's really good. Never has been bad I don't think. Another card to help against blue players as well, sometimes I try and set up boards where I can make them discard their hand before combo'ing to play around hate.
Vindicate is definitely a good one for obvious reasons, and Tithe I added awhile ago. Land Tax effects allow me to play less lands and keep hands with less lands, with the addition of Scroll Rack cards like that are really really good.
I've been playing this deck since I started playing EDH probably something like 3 months ago. My favorite deck type has always been Control Combo/Aggro Combo. I'm a very competitive player coming from a PTQ/GP Grinder background, so the deck itself is very competitive.
The main plan with it just like every other Teysa Combo deck out there is to Darkest Hour + Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Blasting Station + Dude. Now that's one of the many ways you can combo, I think there's something like close to 15 scenarios you can come up with to win the game through a combo. I recently cut Bitter Ordeal, which added a few more ways to combo but it was always so redundant. With the addition of Blood Artist whose actually very good on it's own, I felt comfortable cutting Bitter Ordeal.
The playstyle changes between 1v1 and Multiplayer. In Multiplayer I just set up card advantage engines and slowly build a board while trying not to make any one target me since I deal a lot of damage to myself in various ways taking a few hits from for an example Primeval Titan can really make it hard to win. When playing Multiplayer I just want to try and set up combo and have something like Imp's Mischief to safely combo or set up a way to play around certain spells to safely combo. When playing 1v1 a lot of games are won through reanimating Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or Iona, Shield of Emeria. If they don't just lose to either of those cards they usually have to spend all of their resources getting rid of those or coming up with a battle plan to play around them. While they're focusing on that you can usually set up a combo without having to worry about them having something to stop you.
Here's the list as of 6/28/12. Still tinkering with some card choices and the land count.
Combo/reanimator strategy with a control shell. 1v1 games play out more of a control deck with combo finish and the multiplayer games I tend to lean towards setting up a combo since trying to control multiple people's game plans is sometimes hard.
Still messing with the lands, once I get the other two fetchlands I'm likely cutting Tainted Field and City of Brass for them. I recently cut Cabal Coffers since it was only good with turn1 Map/Wayfarer, might add it back in...I just hate having 38 lands in a deck with the Avg. CMC of 3.
I'd love to hear thoughts on card choices or suggestions.
You can also have Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Darkest Hour + Any Creature + Viscera Seer to scry to a win con and Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Darkest Hour + Any Creature + Sadistic Hypnotist to universal discard. Both of those can win with Blood Artist in play as well. The Infinite Mana Loops can combo with Mentor of the Meek or Skullclamp to draw your deck to find a win condition. You can loop Duplicant with any Reveillark Loop that you can't win with to remove everyone's creatures. I'm sure there's more loops like with Altar of Dementia replacing Blasting Station or Phyrexian Altar, but those are what I believe to be all the ways I can combo in my Teysa deck. I had Nezumi Graverobber in the deck for awhile, I might add it back in. Still experimenting with the "hate card" slots, but with infinite mana you can loop things from the yard which is pretty cool. Don't freak out if one of these combos doesn't work the way I think it does, I'm quite sure every one is possible, the only one I'm not 100% correct on despite getting it checked by a friend that's a rules guru is #'s 10-12. The whole Sun Titan and double reanimate enchantments, the triggers are confusing.
Well, keep in mind that Lotus Cobra doesn't have a triggered mana ability: It has a normal triggered ability that uses the stack, and he doesn't have to make his choice until the ability resolves. Which, in that situation, would be after he resolves the fetchland's activated ability. (In fact, he'd have two triggers that he'd ultimately have to choose for, as the ability triggers again when the second land enters the battlefield.)
But, ultimately, he will have to state a choice for that triggered ability as it resolves.
Yes, you have to announce or specify a choice for the color of mana you generate as the triggered ability resolves.
That's weird, I was watching a Video with Brad Nelson vs Some other guy and He played a Fetchland and said "trigger" and went to Fetch. His Opponent asked what color are you adding with the first one and he said "I dont have to say"
But thank you.
EDIT: Its possible I misunderstood what he said. I just rewatched it a few times. I can't tell if he's saying "I don't have to say" or "I dont have to say yet"
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this question.
I have a Lotus Cobra in play, I play a land, I say "trigger" (meaning the Lotus Cobra), Do I have to announce the Color of Mana I'm floating with said Lotus Cobra?
Except it has the huge drawback of being worthless against 187 creatures. It might have been decent if it was just tap target creature, but exiling and returning - with an opponent only clause - makes it a pretty disappointing card. It might see play as a ~2 of in mono (maybe two) coloured decks, but honestly, would you prefer to run this or Tectonic Edge?
In Standard I think this card will be played in any control deck, there isn't many if not any cards that you would really want to use this on in standard that have a good 187 ability.
Mythic can't really commit to a Soveriegns if you have this and 4 mana up which totally by itself makes Mythic have to change gears and find a new plan to win the game against you.
Anathemancer is good against Chapins build with Halimar Depths, It doesn't seem that steller against the Tap Out versions, they run 12-13 Basics. Usually 12. Only nonbasics are 4 manland 4 fortress and 2 Tectonic Edge, they run 22-23 lands and 3 borderposts. Anathemancers seems like it would probably deal 2 damage maybe 3 depending on late they play it on average against tap out. You can get lucky and deal like 4-5 which is obv good. But I cant see it being a breakout card to beat Uw decks since a large majority of the Uw decks are tapout. Its also VERY easy to beat that card once Uw players know its there.
A Creature with fire-breathing has an effect on it that brings it's power below zero. When I put mana in for fire-breathing do I have to overcome the negative power before gaining power?
Tom Renger took second place at the Boston PTQ on Jan 9th. The other two "Bant Zoo" decks you are referring to are actually just Zoo decks that splashed blue for MD Bant charm, and sideboard negate and/or meddling mage. This bant/zoo hybrid is becoming increasingly popular due to the best deck "Zoo" having access to two or three of the best "cheap" control cards in the format (bant charm, negate, meddling mage). It gives Zoo a whole new game against Scapeshift and Dark Depths (not to mention a few others) especially game one where it was close to auto loss. Any Bant questions I'd love to answer as I played it last ext season and may play it again this season. I'm a big fan of its versatility in a very open environment with solid game against a majority of current tier 1 and 2 archetypes.
Saw a deck like this on modo, was not very good. Better off playing like Rubin Zoo or something. The Needlebite Trap is cute stuff, would be cool for a casual tournament but not for winning matches at a PTQ or larger event.
Bant doesn't play Baneslayer, at least Buchers 6-0 deck didn't.
From my testing with Brad Nelson's Tribal Zoo variant. Its good against Tezzeret decks as long as they can't combo on turn3. Sometimes you can still even beat them if you did have turn1 Steppe Lynx. Besides that, its actually quite easy. GAddock Teeg is very good game1 against Tezzeret and if you can force them to Path your Lynx or Goyf before you play it out then it will almost always ride you to a win game1. After board it really depends on what Tezzeret players are boarding, most don't board many Chalice which is the card that gives you problems since your way to beat them after board is to Extirpate their combo and they almost can't win. They do side in Baneslayer most of the time so you actually leave in a few Paths and the Slaughter Pact to make sure you just don't scoop to a turn4/5 Baneslayer. The key to winning after board is to play a few guys out, DONT fall into E.E. and Molten Rain/Ancient Grudge their manabase so they can't get into a stabilizing position.
Against Thopter-Combo (William's 6-0 deck from Worlds), This match up is much harder then the Tezzeret Control variant. The only reason is that they can usually beat you game1 depending on the Pilot. They can combo on turn3 way more often then Tezzeret can and they aren't affected by Teeg as much as Tezzeret is. So to beat this deck game1, you pretty much have to have a quick hand and some Tribal Flames to close out fast if they get combo on turn3. If they have Chrome Mox its almost always a loss game1 because they take a turn away from your clock by comboing earlier. If they don't have Chrome Mox on turn1 then the matchup's probably 50/50. After board if your packing 4 Extirpate, its a pretty easy win after board. Most lists run 2-3 Chalice in the board. That can randomly win them a game if you don't have the Grudge to get rid of it or the Teeg down early. IF you do end up Extirpating them then its almost always a won game. They can still win though if they get a lot of artifacts and a foundry out and they can still make guys off of random Chrome Mox's and lands.
Ive tested A LOT of games. I don't feel like I need to prove myself for anyone on these forums and if you don't want to take my opinion and testing results and still believe your own that's totally fine with me since I don't actually care.
EDIT: I forgot to even add to the actual thread. "What beats Zoo?" So far Mono Red and Dredge. Scapeshift is claimed to have a good matchup against Zoo, I haven't playtested enough of the matchup to really tell. I've played only like 20 or so games preboard against Scapeshift (Makahito Mihara's list) with Brad Nelson's Zoo variant and it was fast enough to rack up quite a bit of wins and actually changed my mind about playing Scapeshift. I'm sure its more in Scapeshifts favor then I think it is though. Thopter-Combo is a rough matchup and will probably beat Zoo more then Zoo beats it. Depending on the pilot obviously. So far in my testing I've come to the conclusion that "No deck beats another more then 60%" Like right now the formats wide open, people are playing what they are comfortable with and not many people in the real world have actually playtested a lot of the format therefore people might have a good strategy but not a good manabase for example. There is also like 3 variants of just about every deck. If your attending a PTQ early on this season I say play what you feel comfortable with and what you know. You'll rack up wins just randomly against players that have not had enough practice.
Well, it shuts off Teysa, Orzhov Scion's first ability. You can't sac White creatures because they are no longer white. But, it creatures infinite sacrifices.
I saw that! Haha. Kinda funny.
Aura of Silence has been really really good, actually over performing. I had Seal of Cleansing for awhile, but then saw Aura of Silence and it's been impressive.
Imp's Mischief has been amazing, added it recently because I found I had trouble against blue players and their Force of Wills. It answers both counter spells and removal spells for your combo pieces which is insane! No one really expects a card like that out of Black and White either, it's pretty sweet.
Sadistic Hypnotist was in the original list, it's really good. Never has been bad I don't think. Another card to help against blue players as well, sometimes I try and set up boards where I can make them discard their hand before combo'ing to play around hate.
Vindicate is definitely a good one for obvious reasons, and Tithe I added awhile ago. Land Tax effects allow me to play less lands and keep hands with less lands, with the addition of Scroll Rack cards like that are really really good.
The main plan with it just like every other Teysa Combo deck out there is to Darkest Hour + Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Blasting Station + Dude. Now that's one of the many ways you can combo, I think there's something like close to 15 scenarios you can come up with to win the game through a combo. I recently cut Bitter Ordeal, which added a few more ways to combo but it was always so redundant. With the addition of Blood Artist whose actually very good on it's own, I felt comfortable cutting Bitter Ordeal.
The playstyle changes between 1v1 and Multiplayer. In Multiplayer I just set up card advantage engines and slowly build a board while trying not to make any one target me since I deal a lot of damage to myself in various ways taking a few hits from for an example Primeval Titan can really make it hard to win. When playing Multiplayer I just want to try and set up combo and have something like Imp's Mischief to safely combo or set up a way to play around certain spells to safely combo. When playing 1v1 a lot of games are won through reanimating Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or Iona, Shield of Emeria. If they don't just lose to either of those cards they usually have to spend all of their resources getting rid of those or coming up with a battle plan to play around them. While they're focusing on that you can usually set up a combo without having to worry about them having something to stop you.
Here's the list as of 6/28/12. Still tinkering with some card choices and the land count.
1x Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Land (37)
8x Swamp
5x Plains
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vesuva
1x Kor Haven
1x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath
1x Arid Mesa
1x Marsh Flats
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Tainted Field
1x City of Brass
1x Orzhov Basilica
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Strip Mine
1x Caves of Koilos
1x Scrubland
1x Godless Shrine
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Command Tower
1x Isolated Chapel
1x Fetid Heath
Enchantment (7)
1x Land Tax
1x Aura of Silence
1x Darkest Hour
1x Necromancy
1x Animate Dead
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Bitterblossom
1x Sun Titan
1x Reveillark
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Nether Traitor
1x Bloodghast
1x Nezumi Graverobber
1x Mentor of the Meek
1x Dark Confidant
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Viscera Seer
1x Blood Artist
1x Sadistic Hypnotist
1x Karmic Guide
1x Academy Rector
1x Weathered Wayfarer
1x Bone Shredder
Instant (11)
1x Entomb
1x Shred Memory
1x Imp's Mischief
1x Pull from Eternity
1x Devour in Shadow
1x Path to Exile
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Tithe
1x Skeletal Scrying
1x Vindicate
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Unburial Rites
1x Damnation
1x Beseech the Queen
1x Buried Alive
1x Sign in Blood
1x Reanimate
1x Night's Whisper
1x Steelshaper's Gift
1x Hallowed Burial
1x Lingering Souls
1x Timely Reinforcements
Artifact (13)
1x Skullclamp
1x Scroll Rack
1x Mana Crypt
1x Blasting Station
1x Expedition Map
1x Sol Ring
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Phyrexian Altar
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Diamond
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Mortarpod
Currently Testing: Phyrexian Arena, Sword of Feast and Famine, Timely Reinforcements
Possibly cutting: Mentor of the Meek, Phyrexian Arena, Nezumi Graverobber
Still messing with the lands, once I get the other two fetchlands I'm likely cutting Tainted Field and City of Brass for them. I recently cut Cabal Coffers since it was only good with turn1 Map/Wayfarer, might add it back in...I just hate having 38 lands in a deck with the Avg. CMC of 3.
I'd love to hear thoughts on card choices or suggestions.
1. Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Blasting Station + Darkest Hour + Any Creature
2. Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Phyrexian Altar + Nether Traitor + Bitter Ordeal
3. Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Phyrexian Altar + Nether Traitor + Blood Artist
4. Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Phyrexian Altar + Nether Traitor + Blasting Station
5. Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Phyrexian Altar + Nether Traitor + Mortarpod (Stoneforge Mystic/Steelshaper's Gift)
6. Phyrexian Altar + Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Blood Artist
7. Phyrexian Altar + Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Bitter Ordeal
8. Blasting Station + Reveillark + Karmic Guide
9. Blasting Station + Sun Titan + Necromancy/Animate Dead + Karmic Guide
10. Phyrexian Altar + Sun Titan + Animate Dead + Necromancy + Any Creature +Bitter Ordeal
11. Phyrexian Altar + Sun Titan + Animate Dead + Necromancy + Any Creature + Blood Artist
12. Blasting Station + Sun Titan + Animate Dead + Necromancy + Any Creature
13. Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Darkest Hour + Phyrexian Altar + Any Creature + Blood Artist
14. Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Darkest Hour + Phyrexian Altar + Any Creature + Bitter Ordeal
15. Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Darkest Hour + Phyrexian Altar + Mortarpod
16. Sadistic Hypnotist + Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Blood Artist
17. Sadistic Hypnotist + Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Bitter Ordeal
18. Viscera Seer + Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Blood Artist
19. Viscera Seer + Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Bitter Ordeal
20. Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Blood Artist
21. Teysa, Orhov Scion + Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Any Creature + Bitter Ordeal
You can also have Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Darkest Hour + Any Creature + Viscera Seer to scry to a win con and Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Darkest Hour + Any Creature + Sadistic Hypnotist to universal discard. Both of those can win with Blood Artist in play as well. The Infinite Mana Loops can combo with Mentor of the Meek or Skullclamp to draw your deck to find a win condition. You can loop Duplicant with any Reveillark Loop that you can't win with to remove everyone's creatures. I'm sure there's more loops like with Altar of Dementia replacing Blasting Station or Phyrexian Altar, but those are what I believe to be all the ways I can combo in my Teysa deck. I had Nezumi Graverobber in the deck for awhile, I might add it back in. Still experimenting with the "hate card" slots, but with infinite mana you can loop things from the yard which is pretty cool. Don't freak out if one of these combos doesn't work the way I think it does, I'm quite sure every one is possible, the only one I'm not 100% correct on despite getting it checked by a friend that's a rules guru is #'s 10-12. The whole Sun Titan and double reanimate enchantments, the triggers are confusing.
Ok, thanks for clarifying.
That's weird, I was watching a Video with Brad Nelson vs Some other guy and He played a Fetchland and said "trigger" and went to Fetch. His Opponent asked what color are you adding with the first one and he said "I dont have to say"
But thank you.
EDIT: Its possible I misunderstood what he said. I just rewatched it a few times. I can't tell if he's saying "I don't have to say" or "I dont have to say yet"
I have a Lotus Cobra in play, I play a land, I say "trigger" (meaning the Lotus Cobra), Do I have to announce the Color of Mana I'm floating with said Lotus Cobra?
In Standard I think this card will be played in any control deck, there isn't many if not any cards that you would really want to use this on in standard that have a good 187 ability.
Mythic can't really commit to a Soveriegns if you have this and 4 mana up which totally by itself makes Mythic have to change gears and find a new plan to win the game against you.
Who are you?
From my testing with Brad Nelson's Tribal Zoo variant. Its good against Tezzeret decks as long as they can't combo on turn3. Sometimes you can still even beat them if you did have turn1 Steppe Lynx. Besides that, its actually quite easy. GAddock Teeg is very good game1 against Tezzeret and if you can force them to Path your Lynx or Goyf before you play it out then it will almost always ride you to a win game1. After board it really depends on what Tezzeret players are boarding, most don't board many Chalice which is the card that gives you problems since your way to beat them after board is to Extirpate their combo and they almost can't win. They do side in Baneslayer most of the time so you actually leave in a few Paths and the Slaughter Pact to make sure you just don't scoop to a turn4/5 Baneslayer. The key to winning after board is to play a few guys out, DONT fall into E.E. and Molten Rain/Ancient Grudge their manabase so they can't get into a stabilizing position.
Against Thopter-Combo (William's 6-0 deck from Worlds), This match up is much harder then the Tezzeret Control variant. The only reason is that they can usually beat you game1 depending on the Pilot. They can combo on turn3 way more often then Tezzeret can and they aren't affected by Teeg as much as Tezzeret is. So to beat this deck game1, you pretty much have to have a quick hand and some Tribal Flames to close out fast if they get combo on turn3. If they have Chrome Mox its almost always a loss game1 because they take a turn away from your clock by comboing earlier. If they don't have Chrome Mox on turn1 then the matchup's probably 50/50. After board if your packing 4 Extirpate, its a pretty easy win after board. Most lists run 2-3 Chalice in the board. That can randomly win them a game if you don't have the Grudge to get rid of it or the Teeg down early. IF you do end up Extirpating them then its almost always a won game. They can still win though if they get a lot of artifacts and a foundry out and they can still make guys off of random Chrome Mox's and lands.
Ive tested A LOT of games. I don't feel like I need to prove myself for anyone on these forums and if you don't want to take my opinion and testing results and still believe your own that's totally fine with me since I don't actually care.
EDIT: I forgot to even add to the actual thread. "What beats Zoo?" So far Mono Red and Dredge. Scapeshift is claimed to have a good matchup against Zoo, I haven't playtested enough of the matchup to really tell. I've played only like 20 or so games preboard against Scapeshift (Makahito Mihara's list) with Brad Nelson's Zoo variant and it was fast enough to rack up quite a bit of wins and actually changed my mind about playing Scapeshift. I'm sure its more in Scapeshifts favor then I think it is though. Thopter-Combo is a rough matchup and will probably beat Zoo more then Zoo beats it. Depending on the pilot obviously. So far in my testing I've come to the conclusion that "No deck beats another more then 60%" Like right now the formats wide open, people are playing what they are comfortable with and not many people in the real world have actually playtested a lot of the format therefore people might have a good strategy but not a good manabase for example. There is also like 3 variants of just about every deck. If your attending a PTQ early on this season I say play what you feel comfortable with and what you know. You'll rack up wins just randomly against players that have not had enough practice.