Vial+Believer is good against burn, discard and moderate against combo. We all read your arguments against him (shut down the comboplayer with Canonist, don't waste time to kill his win-options), but not every combo-player can really handle a Believer via Vial in respone to [insert player targeted finish-spell], so it's moderate in my optinion.
Also, Ethersworn is an artifact... Did you ever had problems with that? Many Combo-Decks can handle him very good... annoying...
Should i replace Covetous Dragon with Arc Slogger?
Is Fire Imp against Confi etc. useful?
I like the fact to be not addicted to hellbent and i like SoFaI, but i know you all hate Covetous Drageon... Maybe you can explain in detail, against which decktypes it has it's pro's and contra's...
I play D&T since i play Legacy (~1 year) and now i played against enough decks to understand the good and bad parts of this deck.
After i tested a black splash (for Confi + Tidehollow Sculler), i find out that there is a deck, which works very similar like D&T. I speak about "The Rock", a deck to beat.
TheRock boardssweeper: Pernicious Deed removal: StP, Vindicate, Snuff Out tricks: Eternal Witness, Genesis other disruption: Cabal Therapy, Hymn to Tourach beater: Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker card draw: Sensei's Divining Top, Dark Confidant
I think this are common choices from the decklists i know...
The big question for me is: Why is The Rock a deck to beat and D&T not. I played often against The Rock the last time and in my eyes, its the same gameplan with the stronger cardchoices... The only advantages of D&T are better hate against Ichorid in the mainboard, Cataclysm destroys the manabase (and Deed in most games not...), Umezawa's Jitte, Aether Vial and all the tricks.
But now, there is a quite interesting card from Shards of Alara:
Tidehollow Sculler
Artifact Creature - Zombie 2/2, WB (2) When Tidehollow Sculler comes into play, target opponent reveals his or her hand and you choose a nonland card from it. Remove that card from the game.
When Tidehollow Sculler leaves play, return the removed card to its owner's hand.
A black splash offers advantages (Dark Confidant at first, discard) and drawbacks (instabil manabase, lifeloss?), but this card fits the deck perfect in my opinion.
-> You can play it and in response to the CIP-Effect, you can play a Stonecloaker to bounce it, so the removed card never comes back.
-> Same with Flickerwisp and Vial at 3
-> With Vial, we can play this "discard-creature" in response to a spell (for example a dark ritual, so a followed Hymn to Tourach of our opponent could be disabled)
Bad: No Swords, no Cataclysm, no Samurai, no Isamaru, no Rishadan...
Good: Tidehollow Sculler, Thoughtseize (+ mother of runes to protect Sculler, Mangara, etc...)
more ideas: Hypnotic Specter, Hymn to Tourach (both generate huge card advantage, but mana costs are bad)
1) Augury Adept ist not worth any slot. Without support (Mother of Runes or Sword of Fire nach Ice), it is a vanilla 2/2 and even with Vial, the chance to get the carddraw is very low.
2) For me, Flickerwisp is still not an ideal solution in many situations, but it's never a dead card.
3) Sword of Fire and Ice was hot in the control-matchups (i played against MUC and NGQ) and against RG-Beats i managed an nice Combo: True Believer+SoFI Against Aggro and Combo, Jitte is still much better.
4) Mother of Runes + Cataclysm is bad. I want a beater after Cataclysm, so Mother will never stay.
5) 2 Oblivion Rings + Cataclysm is a no go. With 4 ORings mainboard, the danger to get a dead card is to high.
After all my testings, i end up to play this list.
1) I will try Mother of Runes in the slot of Isamaru, to test her functions in this deck. I know, Isamaru + Karakas is one of the best tricks in this deck. But in most games, it's only a way to get a permanent blocker. The real synergy is Isamaru + Jitte (because we can get the counters and bounce isamaru, too...), but i use Sword of Fire and Ice at the moment. So Mother for Isamaru, because it's an good blocker, too. And it's another way to proctect out creatures from removal. Most creatures in D&T have some kind of disruption and Isamaru is one without (only his undercosted body...). Mother ist less aggressiv then Isamaru (bad...).
2) I will try Augury Adept in the Flickerwisp-slot. Cardadvantage+Lifegain seems very powerful, but it must be supported. For this reason, i try Mother of Runes (maybe she can make the Adept unblockable in some games) and Sword of Fire and Ice to have a higher chance to deal damage to an opponent.
On Sunday, i will go to an contest with ~30 players and i hope this decklist will beat some matches...
1) One of my Opponents played Raffinity with white splash and he used Ethersworn Canonist. This game showed me the potential of the Canonist - but in an Affinity-Deck. You know, they play a lot of artifacts and the "tax" of Canonist don't hurt them much. I don't know, how D&T could use the canonist for strong advantage, because the most decklists only play ~7 artifacts. Maybe, Canonist is a good Card against Control (or not?). Things like Brainstorm->Counter can't be played, but i am not sure, that Control gets advantages, too...
2) The lack of draw in this deck is bad. I saw some answers in this thread about Sword of Fire and Ice. I never saw a list with this card. I can imagine, that this card has two big problems: costs 3 mana, needs unblocked creature to give cardadvantage... But protection from red (and blue), +2/+2 are nice. Compared to Jitte, i think i will test this card for a while. Serra Avenger with Sword of Fire and Ice seems very powerful.
3) Pithing Needle ist good in Sideboard. I use a split of 3 Mana Tithe and 2 Oblivion Ring (because i play 3 Cataclysm MB) and so against Control and some Combodecks i SB out 3 Mana Tithe for 3 Pithing Needle. They help a lot against Boardsweepers and against Vedalken Shackels. Decks with this cards seems to be the most annoying for me...
1) Against Combo in general (like SI, TES, Cephalid Breakfast, Belcher,... all types of fast combo decks), would you take True Believer or Ethersworn Canonist? Also, i want to know: Is True Believer useful in matchups with discard?
2) Still a question to the combo-matchup: Powder Keg is useful against Combos with tokens (like empty the warrens or bridge from below). I would like to take this card into the sideboard, but i don't know, in which other matchups it could be useful. I play 3 Mana Tithe mainboard, are there matchups, where 3 Powder Keg could be boarded in for the Mana Tithes?
3) With 3 Stonecloaker and 3 Flickerwisp mainboard, what about 4 Jotun Grunt mainboard? Most of the time i see the combination "3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain and 2 Jotun Grunt" mainboard, i know its good. But in most games i prefer the Grunt. The Samurai is a kind of pro-active disruption and the Grunt can take dangerous cards out of the graveyard in a re-active way. Maybe not the great idea, but i want to hear your opinion.
4) Against the really bad (especially for lower skilled player like me ^^) Landstill-Matchup, i used Pithing Needle in my sideboard and it really helped against the freaking pernicious deed or engineered explosives. Against Combos like Belcher, Cephalid Breakfast, Painter-Mill,... the card is also useful. Also, against Control like MUC its great against cards like vedalken shackles. Is the needle worth 3-4 sideboard-slots?
My meta is full of everything, but most of the time there is something with greensplash (goofys) or blue splash... I play against all kinds of decks with my T&D-Deck, so my goal is a decklist which can handle everything a bit.
-What's up with this Knight of the white orchid? Seems like a pretty weak card to me, what's the big deal?
Excuse me, but i want to show some results of my tests with the Knight of the white orchid.
The Knight is like a faster Version of the Weathered Wayfarer" target="blank">Weathered Wayfarer , but without the posibility of a land-toolbox.
There are some common situations, which i want to show:
Opponent begins.
Opponent plays his 1. land
I play my 1. land
Opponent plays his 2. land
I play my 2. land (example: Umezawa's Jitte)
Opponent plays his 3. land
I play the Knight of the white orchid (3. land) + 4. land -> 2-mana spell castable (for example to equip the Knight with jitte)
Opponent plays his 3. land
I play Cataclysm (maybe with Flakstones in game) and after resolved Cataclysm, i can play my land for this turn -> I can have up to 3 lands, my opponent only 1
Knight+Vial
I play 1. land + Vial
Opponent plays 1. land
I play my 2. Land + Vial at 1
Opponent plays 2. land
I put Vial at 2
Opponent plays 3. land, now i put the Knight with Vial in game and become my 3. Land. This maybe in reaction to an opponents spell and with the land i can play Mana Tithe
Against landdestruction, the knight is also useful. With Vial, he ist even more viable.
Also, the Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker make the CIP-effect more viable, because if u don't draw lands, he can be used several times.
This was my result of testing. Samurai of the Pale Curtain, True Believer and Jotun Grunt are very good, but meta-depending. This is, why i am so interested in the new Knight, but i also know, that this ist not the typical philosophy of D&T.
Argh, my english is so bad, excuse me please
Ah and i love this deck so much in Finns version, thank you for this very interesting thread.
Grandmasters, please say something about the Knight of the White Orchid
:symw::symw: Creature - Human Knight
First strike
When Knight of the White Orchid comes into play, if an opponent controls more lands than you, search your library for a Plains card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.
2/2
I believe, this guy gives card advantage and speed for a round 3 cataclysm and Mana Tithe seems to be better with the option of the untapped land this guy brings.
This text shows more informations about his development: http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article....=mtg/daily/td/4
:symw::symw: Creature - Human Knight
First strike
When Knight of the White Orchid comes into play, if an opponent controls more lands than you, search your library for a Plains card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.
2/2
I think there is a new chance for Flickerwisp because of the "comes into play"-effect... Nice!
Also, Ethersworn is an artifact... Did you ever had problems with that? Many Combo-Decks can handle him very good... annoying...
6 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Great Furnace
//creature 20
4 Fire Imp
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Covetous Dragon
4 Blood Moon
//instant 4
4 Seething Song
//artifact 15
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
Should i replace Covetous Dragon with Arc Slogger?
Is Fire Imp against Confi etc. useful?
I like the fact to be not addicted to hellbent and i like SoFaI, but i know you all hate Covetous Drageon... Maybe you can explain in detail, against which decktypes it has it's pro's and contra's...
After i tested a black splash (for Confi + Tidehollow Sculler), i find out that there is a deck, which works very similar like D&T. I speak about "The Rock", a deck to beat.
A small list to show my thoughts:
D&T
boardssweeper: Cataclysm
removal: StP, O-Ring, Mangara
tricks: Karakas, Stonecloaker, Flickerwisp
other disruption: Mana Tithe, SotPC, Jotun Grunt
beater: Serra Avenger, Jotun Grunt
card draw: /
TheRock
boardssweeper: Pernicious Deed
removal: StP, Vindicate, Snuff Out
tricks: Eternal Witness, Genesis
other disruption: Cabal Therapy, Hymn to Tourach
beater: Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker
card draw: Sensei's Divining Top, Dark Confidant
I think this are common choices from the decklists i know...
The big question for me is: Why is The Rock a deck to beat and D&T not. I played often against The Rock the last time and in my eyes, its the same gameplan with the stronger cardchoices... The only advantages of D&T are better hate against Ichorid in the mainboard, Cataclysm destroys the manabase (and Deed in most games not...), Umezawa's Jitte, Aether Vial and all the tricks.
What do you think?
I think about this version:
18 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
creature
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Nezumi Shortfang
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nyxathid
3 Umezawa's Jitte
sorcery
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
instant
4 Dark Ritual
3 Funeral Charm
4 Snuff Out
Nyxathid could replace Tombstalker and Confidant can't cost us 8 life sometimes... Don't know, what do think about it...
But now, there is a quite interesting card from Shards of Alara:
Tidehollow Sculler
Artifact Creature - Zombie 2/2, WB (2)
When Tidehollow Sculler comes into play, target opponent reveals his or her hand and you choose a nonland card from it. Remove that card from the game.
When Tidehollow Sculler leaves play, return the removed card to its owner's hand.
A black splash offers advantages (Dark Confidant at first, discard) and drawbacks (instabil manabase, lifeloss?), but this card fits the deck perfect in my opinion.
-> You can play it and in response to the CIP-Effect, you can play a Stonecloaker to bounce it, so the removed card never comes back.
-> Same with Flickerwisp and Vial at 3
-> With Vial, we can play this "discard-creature" in response to a spell (for example a dark ritual, so a followed Hymn to Tourach of our opponent could be disabled)
So, what do you think about this creature?
Edit: Ok, here is a list, to show my ideas:
5 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scrubland
3 Karakas
4 Mother of Runes
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Oblivion Ring
Good: Tidehollow Sculler, Thoughtseize (+ mother of runes to protect Sculler, Mangara, etc...)
more ideas: Hypnotic Specter, Hymn to Tourach (both generate huge card advantage, but mana costs are bad)
1) Augury Adept ist not worth any slot. Without support (Mother of Runes or Sword of Fire nach Ice), it is a vanilla 2/2 and even with Vial, the chance to get the carddraw is very low.
2) For me, Flickerwisp is still not an ideal solution in many situations, but it's never a dead card.
3) Sword of Fire and Ice was hot in the control-matchups (i played against MUC and NGQ) and against RG-Beats i managed an nice Combo: True Believer+SoFI Against Aggro and Combo, Jitte is still much better.
4) Mother of Runes + Cataclysm is bad. I want a beater after Cataclysm, so Mother will never stay.
5) 2 Oblivion Rings + Cataclysm is a no go. With 4 ORings mainboard, the danger to get a dead card is to high.
After all my testings, i end up to play this list.
10 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
creature (20)
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Serra Avenger
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
2 Jötun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker
2 Flickerwisp
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
instant (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Mana Tithe
enchantment (2)
2 Oblivion Ring
sorcery (3)
3 Cataclysm
4 Orim's Chant
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 True Believer
3 Pithing Needle
2 Jotun Grunt
Right, my mistake. Sorry
1) I will try Mother of Runes in the slot of Isamaru, to test her functions in this deck. I know, Isamaru + Karakas is one of the best tricks in this deck. But in most games, it's only a way to get a permanent blocker. The real synergy is Isamaru + Jitte (because we can get the counters and bounce isamaru, too...), but i use Sword of Fire and Ice at the moment. So Mother for Isamaru, because it's an good blocker, too. And it's another way to proctect out creatures from removal. Most creatures in D&T have some kind of disruption and Isamaru is one without (only his undercosted body...). Mother ist less aggressiv then Isamaru (bad...).
2) I will try Augury Adept in the Flickerwisp-slot. Cardadvantage+Lifegain seems very powerful, but it must be supported. For this reason, i try Mother of Runes (maybe she can make the Adept unblockable in some games) and Sword of Fire and Ice to have a higher chance to deal damage to an opponent.
On Sunday, i will go to an contest with ~30 players and i hope this decklist will beat some matches...
11 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
3 Flagstones of Trokair
Creatures (20)
3 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
2 Jötun Grunt
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Augury Adept
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mana Tithe
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Cataclysm
4 Orim's Chant
3 True Believer
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pithing Needle
2 Jotun Grunt
So after some testgames, i want to say this...
1) One of my Opponents played Raffinity with white splash and he used Ethersworn Canonist. This game showed me the potential of the Canonist - but in an Affinity-Deck. You know, they play a lot of artifacts and the "tax" of Canonist don't hurt them much. I don't know, how D&T could use the canonist for strong advantage, because the most decklists only play ~7 artifacts. Maybe, Canonist is a good Card against Control (or not?). Things like Brainstorm->Counter can't be played, but i am not sure, that Control gets advantages, too...
2) The lack of draw in this deck is bad. I saw some answers in this thread about Sword of Fire and Ice. I never saw a list with this card. I can imagine, that this card has two big problems: costs 3 mana, needs unblocked creature to give cardadvantage... But protection from red (and blue), +2/+2 are nice. Compared to Jitte, i think i will test this card for a while. Serra Avenger with Sword of Fire and Ice seems very powerful.
3) Pithing Needle ist good in Sideboard. I use a split of 3 Mana Tithe and 2 Oblivion Ring (because i play 3 Cataclysm MB) and so against Control and some Combodecks i SB out 3 Mana Tithe for 3 Pithing Needle. They help a lot against Boardsweepers and against Vedalken Shackels. Decks with this cards seems to be the most annoying for me...
1) Against Combo in general (like SI, TES, Cephalid Breakfast, Belcher,... all types of fast combo decks), would you take True Believer or Ethersworn Canonist? Also, i want to know: Is True Believer useful in matchups with discard?
2) Still a question to the combo-matchup: Powder Keg is useful against Combos with tokens (like empty the warrens or bridge from below). I would like to take this card into the sideboard, but i don't know, in which other matchups it could be useful. I play 3 Mana Tithe mainboard, are there matchups, where 3 Powder Keg could be boarded in for the Mana Tithes?
3) With 3 Stonecloaker and 3 Flickerwisp mainboard, what about 4 Jotun Grunt mainboard? Most of the time i see the combination "3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain and 2 Jotun Grunt" mainboard, i know its good. But in most games i prefer the Grunt. The Samurai is a kind of pro-active disruption and the Grunt can take dangerous cards out of the graveyard in a re-active way. Maybe not the great idea, but i want to hear your opinion.
4) Against the really bad (especially for lower skilled player like me ^^) Landstill-Matchup, i used Pithing Needle in my sideboard and it really helped against the freaking pernicious deed or engineered explosives. Against Combos like Belcher, Cephalid Breakfast, Painter-Mill,... the card is also useful. Also, against Control like MUC its great against cards like vedalken shackles. Is the needle worth 3-4 sideboard-slots?
My meta is full of everything, but most of the time there is something with greensplash (goofys) or blue splash... I play against all kinds of decks with my T&D-Deck, so my goal is a decklist which can handle everything a bit.
The Knight is like a faster Version of the Weathered Wayfarer" target="blank">Weathered Wayfarer , but without the posibility of a land-toolbox.
There are some common situations, which i want to show:
Opponent begins.
Opponent plays his 1. land
I play my 1. land
Opponent plays his 2. land
I play my 2. land (example: Umezawa's Jitte)
Opponent plays his 3. land
I play the Knight of the white orchid (3. land) + 4. land -> 2-mana spell castable (for example to equip the Knight with jitte)
Opponent plays his 3. land
I play Cataclysm (maybe with Flakstones in game) and after resolved Cataclysm, i can play my land for this turn -> I can have up to 3 lands, my opponent only 1
Knight+Vial
I play 1. land + Vial
Opponent plays 1. land
I play my 2. Land + Vial at 1
Opponent plays 2. land
I put Vial at 2
Opponent plays 3. land, now i put the Knight with Vial in game and become my 3. Land. This maybe in reaction to an opponents spell and with the land i can play Mana Tithe
Against landdestruction, the knight is also useful. With Vial, he ist even more viable.
Also, the Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker make the CIP-effect more viable, because if u don't draw lands, he can be used several times.
This was my result of testing. Samurai of the Pale Curtain, True Believer and Jotun Grunt are very good, but meta-depending. This is, why i am so interested in the new Knight, but i also know, that this ist not the typical philosophy of D&T.
Argh, my english is so bad, excuse me please
Ah and i love this deck so much in Finns version, thank you for this very interesting thread.
Knight of the White Orchid
:symw::symw: Creature - Human Knight
First strike
When Knight of the White Orchid comes into play, if an opponent controls more lands than you, search your library for a Plains card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.
2/2
I believe, this guy gives card advantage and speed for a round 3 cataclysm and Mana Tithe seems to be better with the option of the untapped land this guy brings.
This text shows more informations about his development: http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article....=mtg/daily/td/4
Knight of the White Orchid
:symw::symw: Creature - Human Knight
First strike
When Knight of the White Orchid comes into play, if an opponent controls more lands than you, search your library for a Plains card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.
2/2
I think there is a new chance for Flickerwisp because of the "comes into play"-effect... Nice!