Most builds don't play Samurai of the Pale Curtain (my, too) and so there is only Jotun Grunt and Stonecloaker for graveyard hate. Vindicate is weak against recursion, where Oblivion Ring is better. Vindicate the Survival of the Fittest - nxt turn they play Eternal Witness...
So this is only an example, but without Grunt/Cloaker available, Vindicate would only be a temporary solution against recursion intensive decks, too (like O-Ring against sweeper or enchantment-removal).
All in all, Vindicate is better on it's own. But it's not worth a splash on it's own. My speculation:
Vindicate:
There will be 1 of 10 games, where the opponent can Wasteland/Stifle/Sinkhole/... our black producing land(s), so that we can't cast Vindicate.
There will be 1 of 20 games, where a removed card would be better then a destroyed one, because of any kind of recursion.
There will be 1 of 30 games, where it's important to target a land.
There will be 1 of 10 games, where you could have made any senseful interaction between Flickerwisp and O-Ring, where Vindicate only works on it's own.
There will be 1 of 5 games, where Vindicate is permanent and Oblivion Ring not, because of removal/sweepers.
Strategy: Force yourself and the opponent into topdeckmodus, renew lands faster via crucible, finish him with Rack or Syphon Life, let creatures run into Bridge...
But you play only 2 basic lands... Even with Hierarch and Vial, this makes the opponents Wastelandlock, Back to Basics, Bloodmoon and similar effects very bad for you. Also, 2 Flagstones and no Rotation = bad starthand. I mean: You need Flagstones to get no carddisadvantage and for what? Karakas? 4 Slots for a Karakas/Wasteland-searcher, that does nothing else?
Crop Rotation is much better with Crucible of Worlds (and maybe Life from the Loam), because you can negate the carddisadvantage and this combo provides a consistent Wasteland-Lock. But does this fit the aggressive playstyle of D&T? I think Weathered Wayfarer can do the job of Crop Rotation in a similar way, but he can hold a Jitte, can come via Vial into play, he doesn't generate carddisadvantage (even cardadvantage!) and he can block a Lackey. I think he even makes hard matchups like Landstill much more positiv then Crop Rotation. For what matchups did you add this card? Maybe i am missing something ^^
You have no graveyard-hate main. I would even play 4 Jotun Grunt before i play Tarmogoyf, just because he is disruptive and beats opponents Goofys.
Also, 1 Gaddock Teeg is just bad for the Combomatchup. Teeg does less then Canonist (just because its easier for the comboplayer to search for an answer) and even 3-4 Canonist are the minimum to have a "winable" combomatchup. In a list without Cataclysm, i would play 3 Canonists and 2-3 Teeg. This is a decent hate against many gameplans in general.
I think you don't need Qasali Pridemage - or do i underrate Exalted? I think O-Ring, Mangara and the Tricks with the two cards are the more potent weapons against cards like Conterbalance, Humility and other jokes (where Pridemage is often not so good). Maybe Harmonic Sliver (because of the good interaction with Flickerwisp) could be a option in the sideboard. But if you need mass-hate against artifacts, play Kataki, Wars Wage in the Sideboard and against Enchantress, there helps Canonist.
Not against a meta where you expect to see 70% "counterbalance goyf" decks.
You cataclysm. They keep land, SDT, CB and goyf. gg?
That's the reason why i play Elvish Hexhunter main now. He makes Oblivion Ring more viable in finding a target, because it don't have to target the enchantment. And he supports Cataclysm, because you can sac him turn 2 or 3 to destroy the opponents Counterbalance/Survival of the Fittest/Propaganda or whatever and then Cataclysm is more often gg. In my opinion, he is the Cursecatcher of Death and Taxes ;P
Edit: Btw, tribaldecks are a pushed with m10 (new lords), maybe a recall for Cataclysm ;D
Question: A 1/1 attacks me and i declare a 1/1 as blocker. Now i play this spell. Does it prevent the 1 damage, or can it only prevent exactly 2 damage?
I understand the request, but even if there is a cc1-creature that works - which card would you cut for (i look at your startpost cataclysm-less list)? Stonecloaker? O-Ring? Flickerwisp? Grunt? Jitte?
In the Cataclysm-build i would not play FoDestiny and even without Cat, it's just a 1/1, that needs a lot mana to become serious. So i would never call it "crazy inderpriced" and at the same time the Figure is not disruptive.
*insert repeating of fanboy-blabla for Elvish Hexhunter in a Cataclysm-build*
Maybe you can give me a direction, what i should cut in the Cataclysm-build for Hexhunter. This really frustrated me: I just don't know what to cut - i only know, it should me something with CC3 and there are only O-Ring, Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker worthy of discussion since Mangara is the core of the deck. Maybe, Jitte and Grunt are discussible, too...
Ya, many decks play blue only for one reason - cantrips for more consistency. So what about playing Wb + 6-7 fetchlands + 3 Sensei's Divining Top + 4 Dark Confidant? Tops minimalize the lifeloss, find answers and even fix the manabase. Most of you already cut Cataclysm (still a mistake in my opinion), so the splash could be a serious alternative to add more consistency to the deck. Something like that:
land
[insert 21 lands manabase] - the question is: With or without Wasteland/Port
cc1
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Jitte helps against aggro/burn and can be tutored by Sisay.
Quirion Ranger combos with so many creatures... Rofellos, Mangara and Sisay are most important, but even with KotR or Hierarch, there are possible tricks. Also, Ranger protects Forests and Savannahs against landdestruction and they can provide pseudo-vigilance.
Actually, the deck works so consistent, i really like it. This is the reason, why i dont want to add cards like StoP, that are sometimes just a waste (Chalice, Shroud, Combo,...) and why i like Wish+Survival - even at the cost of speed. Btw i tested -4 Forest/+4 Taiga for Anger and it was not worth the vulnerability against nonbasichate.
The upside is that the deck has proactive disruption at the one slot, and the Duress+Dark Confidant opening solves many of the decks no vial problems. The downside is a lack of mana denial, and the Vials don't rest quite so comfortably on 3 anymore.
I've found that with the increased number of early drops, I don't mind casting Serra Avenger on turn four so much. The curve is fixed.
In one of the local 1.5 tournaments I think I'm going to run this with a board of
I miss Oblivion Ring in your list... Without Ring, you could just play Mana Tithe to fix several matchups and give the deck speed without splashing black - because you play Duress/Thoughtseize in this slot (TS is much better btw...). And O-Ring is better than Mana Tithe, just because its more consistent in making his job when you need it - and the Flickerwisp-trick is a factor, too.
Yes, Confidant is nice - especially in a list without Cataclysm. But a splash just for Confidant? You are more vulnerable for Stifle, Wasteland,... Confidant draws you cards on the one hand but on the other you loose more often a land, Confidant is not disruptive by itself and you have no possible Flickerwisp/O-Ring tricks to gain cardadvantage on the other hand.
Maybe i am underrating your deck, but Finn talked about a Wb-build in the past and his report was not really positiv. Maybe its not actual enough, i dont know.
Personally, i would play Tidehollow Sculler! Tricks with Cloaker/Flickerwisp are really decent and its very disruptiv against many decks.
You say, we need better Hands without Vial? So with 4 Hexhunter main, i really have less problems against decks like Counterbalance.deck, Standstill.deck, Survival.deck, Enchantress, Stax,... All decks, where a Vial is so important.
Posted in: Legacy Archives
The problem with cutting Cloaker is, that he was a quasi-counterspell for targeting removalspells. Flickerwisp can manage this only with vial, and a game with vial is positiv without this trick, too. Also, the targeting GY-card-removal is really important - Wasteland-/Mishra-lock via Crucible, Life from the Loam, Squee/Genesis, Ichoridcards, Academy Ruins - targets, and so on... A list without Samurai of the Pale Curtain is dependant on Stonecloakers removal, because Grunt can be played arount by the opponent to easy.
But, it seems that he is a weak card in matchups, where you dont need antiremoval or gy-hate - just because he cant manage spectacular combat tricks anymore. Yes, cutting him is an option.
I must say, i really like Elvish Hexhunter. Many control-decks are threatening him as an early play and he helps to give Oblivion Ring more viability in finding a target, because it must not kill the enchantment. Also, Hexhunter is good with Cataclysm... Its just sad if you cant play Cat, because the opponent would keep Counterbalance/Top or SurvivalotF... And he would be sacced anyway
I guess the obvious question is why play this over Bant-survival?
Basically (correct me if I'm wrong), you trade their anti-creatures (StP), library manipulation (BS, ponder) and counterspell suit (daze, FoW, spellstutter) for vial, wish and mangara tricks. I'm not sure that switch is worth it, tbh. It slows down a deck which wasn't particularily fast in the 1st place. In particular, I fear you might have too little options for the early-game.
My deck-suggestion runs noticeable more disruptive creatures - and they must compensate StoP and counter. I agree that the deck is slow, but i seek for control about what i draw and Wish is here more consistent (compared to common cantrips) in finding the needed creature (and so disruption). Also, playing only 2 colours helps playing against nonbasic-hate.
I'd be curious to hear about your testing against aggro, particularily goblins.
Yes, Lackey is a problem - but its a problem for every deck. Think about D&T - 3 Isamaru and 4 Swords are not always on the starthand and without them (and Goblins on the play) its misfortune. I have (on the draw) 4 Hierarch and 2 other cc1-creatures to buy time and turn2 there are Gaddock, Pridemage and Goofy for blocking (much more then D&T has). Mangara/Tivadar are slow and StoP would help in this MU more, but with 27 creatures mainboard, its really not impossible to stop them - exalted helps here to attack efficient. Windborn Muse and Tabernacle-land (only if they have no Wasteland in game) are good to slow them down... But, this is only my thought and i didnt play against goblins yet.
But Aggro (i played against Merfolk, which is really not weak) in general is not really bad because of the high count of creatures.
Oh! I think you underrate Serra Avenger. Flying is important to be unblockable in many matchups and vigilance allows attacking/blocking at the same time - and thats the reason why Avenger+Jitte ist so strong. Rishadan Port helps to buy time since you can hardcast Avenger. After Cataclysm, Avenger is really great (only problem is Tarmogoyf after Cat) and gg if she holds a jitte. Against burn as removal, we have Stonecloaker (and sometimes Flickerwisp) as protection.
I want to create a highly consistent deck with many disruptive creatures that can deal with most decks of this format. I came up to this green/white decklist hybrid between Death and Taxes (here: Mangara-lock, disruptive creatures) and Survival-decks:
Choices:
6 Forest / 2 Plains: 8 basics, so it is possible to cast Pridemage against B2B or BloodMoon without a Vial/Hierarch
3 Wasteland: fetchable with Knight, one as possible wishtarget
1 Karakas: combo with Mangara/Tivadar and Vial@3, protection for other legendary creatures, hate against some special creatures
1 Nantuko Monastery: good target for KotR in lategame
4 Noble Hierarch: acceleration and exalted, the deck really needs the speed to be viable
1 Children of Korlis: nice lock with Genesis against some decks, after Teeg/Canonist a possible hatecard against Tendrils of Agony
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage: exalted and artifact/enchantment-hate, multiple use with Genesis and sometimes Witness
2 Gaddock Teeg: very important card, opponents must remove him or they can not play bad cards like Humility, Moat, Armageddon, Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, Fact or Fiction, Wrath of God, Damnation, Cataclysm, Chalice of the Void, Engineered Explosives, Force of Will, Natural Order,…
2 Knight of the Reliquary: gets big in lategame, can search for Karakas
2 Mangara of Corondor: a slow Vindicate
1 Loaming Shaman: GY-Hate
1 Dauntless Escort: sweeper-protection
1 Captain Sisay: drawengine, special possibilty to fetch Jitte
4 Aether Vial: very good together with Survival, because SotF can search for a creature with cc=vialcounter… creatures with instantspeed and counterprotection is really nice, helps to build up a lock with Mangara and Karakas or Children of Korlis + Genesis or Gaddock and Karakas
4 Living Wish: slow, but there are so many good targets and many of the creatures can win a game on their own against their special counterdeck and the card finds lockpieces
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale: important against Empty the Warrens or swarmaggro
1 Ethersworn Canonist: helps against Enchantress and combo in general, but its very fragile
1 Kataki, War's Wage: a silverbullet against Stax-decks, Affinity and other artifact-based decks
1 Vexing Shusher: against bluebased decks and without a vial in game its sometimes very helpful
1 Tivadar of Thorn: together with Karakas he kills Goblins very solid
So I hope for some ideas and criticism! Here are some points i think about:
Cut Living Wish because it is to slow and the creatures are not gamebreaking enough?
Should I play red and/or black for more creatures with removal (Flametongue Kavu, Shriekmaw), draw (Dark Confidant), Utility (Anger) and disruption (Magus of the Moon,...) or is it wise to play a more consistent manabase with only 2 colours and Wasteland?
Vindicate the Survival of the Fittest - nxt turn they play Eternal Witness...
So this is only an example, but without Grunt/Cloaker available, Vindicate would only be a temporary solution against recursion intensive decks, too (like O-Ring against sweeper or enchantment-removal).
All in all, Vindicate is better on it's own. But it's not worth a splash on it's own. My speculation:
Vindicate:
There will be 1 of 10 games, where the opponent can Wasteland/Stifle/Sinkhole/... our black producing land(s), so that we can't cast Vindicate.
There will be 1 of 20 games, where a removed card would be better then a destroyed one, because of any kind of recursion.
There will be 1 of 30 games, where it's important to target a land.
There will be 1 of 10 games, where you could have made any senseful interaction between Flickerwisp and O-Ring, where Vindicate only works on it's own.
There will be 1 of 5 games, where Vindicate is permanent and Oblivion Ring not, because of removal/sweepers.
note - only speculation...
Sure... What about Bottomless Pit? This card needs more love =)
In a heavy selfdestructive deck, this card could be worth to include in the pox-shell.
Maybe a list?
15 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Cabal Pit
artifact
4 The Rack
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
2 Syphon Life
4 Dark Ritual
enchantment
4 Bottomless Pit
But you play only 2 basic lands... Even with Hierarch and Vial, this makes the opponents Wastelandlock, Back to Basics, Bloodmoon and similar effects very bad for you. Also, 2 Flagstones and no Rotation = bad starthand. I mean: You need Flagstones to get no carddisadvantage and for what? Karakas? 4 Slots for a Karakas/Wasteland-searcher, that does nothing else?
You have no graveyard-hate main. I would even play 4 Jotun Grunt before i play Tarmogoyf, just because he is disruptive and beats opponents Goofys.
Also, 1 Gaddock Teeg is just bad for the Combomatchup. Teeg does less then Canonist (just because its easier for the comboplayer to search for an answer) and even 3-4 Canonist are the minimum to have a "winable" combomatchup. In a list without Cataclysm, i would play 3 Canonists and 2-3 Teeg. This is a decent hate against many gameplans in general.
I think you don't need Qasali Pridemage - or do i underrate Exalted? I think O-Ring, Mangara and the Tricks with the two cards are the more potent weapons against cards like Conterbalance, Humility and other jokes (where Pridemage is often not so good). Maybe Harmonic Sliver (because of the good interaction with Flickerwisp) could be a option in the sideboard. But if you need mass-hate against artifacts, play Kataki, Wars Wage in the Sideboard and against Enchantress, there helps Canonist.
That's the reason why i play Elvish Hexhunter main now. He makes Oblivion Ring more viable in finding a target, because it don't have to target the enchantment. And he supports Cataclysm, because you can sac him turn 2 or 3 to destroy the opponents Counterbalance/Survival of the Fittest/Propaganda or whatever and then Cataclysm is more often gg. In my opinion, he is the Cursecatcher of Death and Taxes ;P
Edit: Btw, tribaldecks are a pushed with m10 (new lords), maybe a recall for Cataclysm ;D
In the Cataclysm-build i would not play FoDestiny and even without Cat, it's just a 1/1, that needs a lot mana to become serious. So i would never call it "crazy inderpriced" and at the same time the Figure is not disruptive.
*insert repeating of fanboy-blabla for Elvish Hexhunter in a Cataclysm-build*
Maybe you can give me a direction, what i should cut in the Cataclysm-build for Hexhunter. This really frustrated me: I just don't know what to cut - i only know, it should me something with CC3 and there are only O-Ring, Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker worthy of discussion since Mangara is the core of the deck. Maybe, Jitte and Grunt are discussible, too...
Any thoughts?
land
[insert 21 lands manabase] - the question is: With or without Wasteland/Port
cc1
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
cc2
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Umezawa's Jitte
cc3
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker
This deck has a sightly lower curve, with all its advantages and drawbacks.
6 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Nantuko Monastery
creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Captain Sisay
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
enchantment
4 Survival of the Fittest
sorcery
4 Living Wish
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Children of Korlis
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Captain Sisay
Quirion Ranger combos with so many creatures... Rofellos, Mangara and Sisay are most important, but even with KotR or Hierarch, there are possible tricks. Also, Ranger protects Forests and Savannahs against landdestruction and they can provide pseudo-vigilance.
Actually, the deck works so consistent, i really like it. This is the reason, why i dont want to add cards like StoP, that are sometimes just a waste (Chalice, Shroud, Combo,...) and why i like Wish+Survival - even at the cost of speed. Btw i tested -4 Forest/+4 Taiga for Anger and it was not worth the vulnerability against nonbasichate.