Hey guys this is my Ghost Council of Orzhova EDH deck. Like other posts, this seems to be the place to go for advice on B/W decks. It started off as a Teysa, Orzhov Scion desk with a lot of sacrifice/Recursion and the Darkest Hour combo. After a while it wasn't running right so I've switched to a new general. I've kept the sac/recur but I've now added in some more life gain and trued to speed it up a bit with cards like Land tax and Tithe
It seems to be running smoother but I'd like to see if you guys see anything that you would take out or replace with something else.
Hello,
With only 35 land and a few helpers, I'd probably up that count a bit. A couple of lands and a couple more helpers (pref cheap mana rocks).
You might consider culling out some of the cards that are more specialized to other playstyles. Sublime Archangel, great card in the right deck, exalted rarely does anything for us. And Crypt Ghast, amazing in mono black, loses a LOT of it's efficacy in here.
Find yourself a Corpse Dance. It's so powerful, it should probably be banned.
Since you don't have a lot of token producers/evergreen creatures, you might find more value could be had in the grave pact/martyr's bond slots.
Necromancy is a bit of an upgrade to Animate Dead, or run both.
Give Viscera Seer a look as a replacement for Thoughtpicker. The Seer has some nasty tricks and doesn't use mana for the sac.
I was updating the OP and ran up against the character limit, hit the wrong button, and lost not only my changes, but a lot of the old formatting. Just put in over an hour fixing it, and still have a lot to do.
Is there any way (like mod permission) to remove the character limit?
Bear in mind, this is not my "main" deck, so it doesn't see much use these days. There is a very large section of synergies/combos for black/white, many of which translate well to Teysa in my Ghost Council thread (linked in my sig). It might be worth a read.
[CARD]
Emeria, the Sky Ruin[/CARD] → I read what you 2011 about this card. Do you have the chance to use it regularly, when it is in play? I've taken it out of my list, because I think there is hardly chance to get out 7 plains, especially when you need black mana as well
I've played lots of games without it ever seeing use/getting online, but every once in a while, it turns out to be pretty cool. There are 15 basic plains, plus 2 that count as plains (godless/mistveil), and several cards that can fetch additional plains, so it's very doable in a long game.
I should say though, I much prefer a more robust suite of utility lands like I use in my Ghost Council deck. I went the Emeria route on this deck just for something different and because it's $inexpensive.
Darksteel Ingot → Is it a meta choice because of disenchants? Chromatic lantern seems to be better especially when focusing on the plains.
I really like Lantern, especially in 3+ color decks, it's not such a big deal in two color, and it's a rare game in my meta that an Austere Command doesn't hit the table at some point.
I'd put the two cards as roughly equal value in here. Some games, Ingot will turn out to be a better choice, some games will go the other way.
Trading Post → Did it pay off for you? I only saw it twice in games in my play group and it did not do much there.
It's not an all-star, but it's been decent. It's nice as a way to dump something into the yard to cheaply recur it into play.
As long as you have a sac outlet and repeatable recursion, it's an exile machinegun. When FH comes into play, let the first ability go on the stack. With that still on the stack, sac FH. FH will go to the graveyard to be used again, the second ability goes on the stack and fizzles, and the first abilty will resolve, exiling target creature forever. Repeat.
This kind of combo works especially well with Nim Deathmantle and Ashnod's Altar, but there are lots of other ways to abuse it, like Corpse Dance, or just doing it once per turn with recursion like Emeria/Sheoldred.
Mindslicer → I got your point from the first post: You need some stax effect and a token producer on the long term. I like the idea, but did it work out in practice as well? In the test games it didn't for me, but that's not really representative.
It's been really hit and miss for me. If I were building the deck to be the best I could make it, Slicer wouldn't make the cut. I play several cards in both Teysa and Vish just to be a little different from my Ghost Council.
The deck also has only a small number of tutors. Did you make the experience it runs better with it in comparison?
Not at all. If I were building it for max effectiveness, Entomb (and probably another one or two) would definitely be in the list.
As the others have said, Orzhov does lots of things well, and while lots of those things work synergistically together, avoid the temptation of trying to do them "all with a single deck".
Since we do both sacrifice and recursion so easily, most Orzhov decks will build around a core of these effects and then going in it's own direction with a choice of how to abuse/profit from that core. Some examples with just a few possible card examples:
ETB/LTB abuse - Using creatures with powerful etb/ltb effects (over and over). Depending on how you build, the deck can focus on pure combo (usually with lots of tutors), ending the game in a few turns with little to no interaction from the table, or slowly "grinding down" the opponents over time and winning long wars of attrition. Kokusho, the Evening Star
You can just use the heavy recursion to help you simply beat down the table with hard to kill (keep dead) fatties and powerful equipment or to facilitate a more defensive, "pillowfort" style of play.
Orzhov gives a ton of options, just keep our weaknesses in mind. Ramp and interacting with the stack.
How the heck did It take that long? This has been a better primer for far longer than some of the other ones we have. I just thought you didn't want to make it a primer!
Good news, Orzhovians.
This thread has finally been approved for primer status. Just waiting on a mod to tag it now
So, about the new set....
Is it just me or is nothing really standing out? There are a few "ok" cards, but nothing that's got me jazzed, or am I missing a bomb somewhere?
It's Beacon of Unrest that targets only your grave, isn't reusable (as much) and can get lands and enchants too. I don't see Blackjack running enough enchantments to make it viable (and all of his are recurrable with titan), and lands are better brought back and abused with Crucible of Worlds, Petrified Field and/or Sun Titan. Even Grim discovery does the job. Unless you're enchantment heavy, Beacon is a much better choice.
Now, if it targeted any graveyard, that would've been an entirely different story.
Yeah, valid, I think. Back when I ran more enchants, it probably would have been a bit more valuable.
you mentioned in an early post that victimize had crazy synergy with xiahou dun, the one eyed. Any reason it didn't make the final cut?
also I kinda wouldn't mind experimenting with trading post. I like it's personality and it seems like it would be another good way of bringing back something like ashnod's altar or nim deathmantle which don't stay in play long in my meta. worth a shot or are there some glaring problems I'm missing?
Victimize - I still think it's a great card, but I was running into too many times when I didn't have two creatures to reanimate (have to have both at casting or you can't do it).
Trading Post - I've been using it in a Karador recursion/attrition deck I just built and I like it. I think it could be a solid inclusion in here. Useful for dumping a fatty into the yard and then reanimating it too.
what are your thoughts on the cloudstone curio shenanigans(why are you not running it) and why the lack of tutors?
Cloudstone Curio - Love the card, I use it in my Rasputin deck. With this build, I don't feel like I've got enough cards that benefit from the bounce to warrant a slot.
Tutors - Yeah, my only tutor is Corpse Connoisseur. The deck would be a bit stronger with a couple tutors thrown in, but honestly, I look at this deck as more of a just "fun and flavorful" build, and there are SO many cool zombie-ish cards that I really want to play, it's hard to make room for other stuff. If I get my hands on another Entomb, I'll probably find a slot for it.
Hello,
With only 35 land and a few helpers, I'd probably up that count a bit. A couple of lands and a couple more helpers (pref cheap mana rocks).
You might consider culling out some of the cards that are more specialized to other playstyles. Sublime Archangel, great card in the right deck, exalted rarely does anything for us. And Crypt Ghast, amazing in mono black, loses a LOT of it's efficacy in here.
Find yourself a Corpse Dance. It's so powerful, it should probably be banned.
Since you don't have a lot of token producers/evergreen creatures, you might find more value could be had in the grave pact/martyr's bond slots.
Necromancy is a bit of an upgrade to Animate Dead, or run both.
Give Viscera Seer a look as a replacement for Thoughtpicker. The Seer has some nasty tricks and doesn't use mana for the sac.
It does help. Thanks.
I was updating the OP and ran up against the character limit, hit the wrong button, and lost not only my changes, but a lot of the old formatting. Just put in over an hour fixing it, and still have a lot to do.
Is there any way (like mod permission) to remove the character limit?
True enough.
Sac Outlet:
Blasting Station - Kill the table
Ashnod's Altar - Infi colorless mana
Phyrexian Altar - Infi colored mana
Viscera Seer - Infi Scry
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter - Infi targeted creature removal & Infi big vampire
I need to update my combo section with that.
Bear in mind, this is not my "main" deck, so it doesn't see much use these days. There is a very large section of synergies/combos for black/white, many of which translate well to Teysa in my Ghost Council thread (linked in my sig). It might be worth a read.
I've played lots of games without it ever seeing use/getting online, but every once in a while, it turns out to be pretty cool. There are 15 basic plains, plus 2 that count as plains (godless/mistveil), and several cards that can fetch additional plains, so it's very doable in a long game.
I should say though, I much prefer a more robust suite of utility lands like I use in my Ghost Council deck. I went the Emeria route on this deck just for something different and because it's $inexpensive.
I really like Lantern, especially in 3+ color decks, it's not such a big deal in two color, and it's a rare game in my meta that an Austere Command doesn't hit the table at some point.
I'd put the two cards as roughly equal value in here. Some games, Ingot will turn out to be a better choice, some games will go the other way.
It's not an all-star, but it's been decent. It's nice as a way to dump something into the yard to cheaply recur it into play.
Certainly not a "must-have" card though.
Combos, yes
As long as you have a sac outlet and repeatable recursion, it's an exile machinegun. When FH comes into play, let the first ability go on the stack. With that still on the stack, sac FH. FH will go to the graveyard to be used again, the second ability goes on the stack and fizzles, and the first abilty will resolve, exiling target creature forever. Repeat.
This kind of combo works especially well with Nim Deathmantle and Ashnod's Altar, but there are lots of other ways to abuse it, like Corpse Dance, or just doing it once per turn with recursion like Emeria/Sheoldred.
It's been really hit and miss for me. If I were building the deck to be the best I could make it, Slicer wouldn't make the cut. I play several cards in both Teysa and Vish just to be a little different from my Ghost Council.
Not at all. If I were building it for max effectiveness, Entomb (and probably another one or two) would definitely be in the list.
Since we do both sacrifice and recursion so easily, most Orzhov decks will build around a core of these effects and then going in it's own direction with a choice of how to abuse/profit from that core. Some examples with just a few possible card examples:
ETB/LTB abuse - Using creatures with powerful etb/ltb effects (over and over). Depending on how you build, the deck can focus on pure combo (usually with lots of tutors), ending the game in a few turns with little to no interaction from the table, or slowly "grinding down" the opponents over time and winning long wars of attrition.
Kokusho, the Evening Star
- Yosei, the Morning Star
- Angel of Despair
- Archon of Justice
- Rune-Scarred Demon
Tokens - Using the core to help produce a large army of tokens for beatdown and/or profiting further from sacrificing them or using them as a resource in other ways (Stax builds fitting into the latter).Tokens - Knight-Captain of Eos, Cloudgoat Ranger, Bitterblossom
Evergreen Creatures - Bloodghast, Reassembling Skeleton
Further Abuse/Profit - Grave Pact, Butcher of Malakir, Skullclamp, Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Bleeder - Gaining lots of life while draining life from the table (Divinity of Pride, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Vizkopa Guildmage, Exsanguinate, Debt to the Deathless)
While this can be a focus all it's own, it's usually paired with cards that are able to use high life totals as an additional resource (necropotence), or an alternate wincon (Test of Endurance, Felidar Sovereign), the latter becoming a more dependable wincon with all the tutoring and recursion that bw gives us.
Or.....
You can just use the heavy recursion to help you simply beat down the table with hard to kill (keep dead) fatties and powerful equipment or to facilitate a more defensive, "pillowfort" style of play.
Orzhov gives a ton of options, just keep our weaknesses in mind. Ramp and interacting with the stack.
Yeah, looks like (bleeder at least) got a couple toys.
It was a long time before I applied.
This thread has finally been approved for primer status. Just waiting on a mod to tag it now
So, about the new set....
Is it just me or is nothing really standing out? There are a few "ok" cards, but nothing that's got me jazzed, or am I missing a bomb somewhere?
First take as "ok" but not really good:
Blood Baron of Vizkopa for a lifegain/bleeder build
Debt to the Debtless for a lifegain/bleeder build
Maw of the Obzedat for a token heavy build
Yeah, valid, I think. Back when I ran more enchants, it probably would have been a bit more valuable.
Hmmm... yeah. I think I can get behind this one. It's to battlefield
Obzedat's Aid
:3mana::symw::symb: Sorcery
I always "maintain graveyard integrity"
Victimize - I still think it's a great card, but I was running into too many times when I didn't have two creatures to reanimate (have to have both at casting or you can't do it).
Trading Post - I've been using it in a Karador recursion/attrition deck I just built and I like it. I think it could be a solid inclusion in here. Useful for dumping a fatty into the yard and then reanimating it too.
Cloudstone Curio - Love the card, I use it in my Rasputin deck. With this build, I don't feel like I've got enough cards that benefit from the bounce to warrant a slot.
Tutors - Yeah, my only tutor is Corpse Connoisseur. The deck would be a bit stronger with a couple tutors thrown in, but honestly, I look at this deck as more of a just "fun and flavorful" build, and there are SO many cool zombie-ish cards that I really want to play, it's hard to make room for other stuff. If I get my hands on another Entomb, I'll probably find a slot for it.
Anxious to learn her abilities.