Also, do people let you guys keep deathmantle???? in my meta it dies on sight and rarely sticks a turn rotation. I generally have to horde it until I have enough mana to drop it with a good target in play and assume it will be gone by the next turn. One player in particular loves playing heavy card draw / answer based decks though.
It gets killed pretty quick here too. I rarely play it out unless I'm either ready to abuse it immediatley, or I've got something to recur it in hand (Titan, Beacon), or a backup replacement for when it does get nuked.
Keep dropping and recurring threats, and eventually you catch them flat-footed.
I've run both the Myojin and ID Crisis. Great cards, no doubt.
I totally get what you're saying about Angel, too. Sometimes she just feels like I could do a lot better, but I think of all the problems she has solved for me, and how many backs she's broken with Corpse Dance and Deathmantle, and I just can't bring myself to replace her.
haha they're going to learn the power of yosei
Oh and thanks for recommending wurmcoil engine, I love these mini combos that are hard to deal with but not impossible to break
@Xenfire - Yeah, I haven't been real happy with Sepulchral either. I'm going to go ahead and take him out for Vizkopa Guildmage. VG has been testing out pretty well.
Purple Flurp and I were talking about Divinity just as a possibility for his particular situation. Seems like he's got one of those restrictive groups that don't like combos.
@Purple flurp - That group rule for Divinity kinda sucks, man. He's strong, but in no stretch of the imagination is he broken. I've seen a lot more people whine about Yosei than Divinity. My guess is they'll ban you from buying back Corpse Dance very soon. Wurmcoil Engine would be pretty good in your build/circumstance. There are some pretty nasty mini-combos with him.
But honestly without the combo pieces from your list (or any list for that matter), do you think my non-bo deck will still be as successful as a list that does run combos?
Win percentage won't be quite as high without infi-combos, but you'll still be able to win a fair amount, and it will be a lot of fun to play. I win a lot of games without ever hitting an infi combo.
also...I'd be tempted to run Abyssal Persecutor. Very fun political card and not a bad beater.
What sort of beaters would you recommend to add as replacements?
Given your case (non-combo), I'd think a little bit of rattlesnake/defensive stuff and lifegain might serve you well. I'd probably try out something like..
How effective is it in multiplayer though, considering much of our removal is spot removal, if we somehow gathered a lot of hate, could this list fend off at least 2 players targeting me at one time?
If you become the target of multiple players, without comboing out, there's really not much to do except fetch a sweeper and/or some damage prevention and hope for the best.
And am I packing too much recursion at 19 (including emeria)?
Looking over your list, I'd say you should probably drop a few recursion pieces and (given your non-combo strategy) put in a couple more big beaters and/or sweepers.
I'd probably drop:
^^ Ashnod's Altar is another infinite enabler. Other than that, you should be fine.
I'm assuming you're counting creature based (like Angel of Despair) in spot removal spells, otherwise, that's a really heavy count.
I have a questions: how often do you guys use spawning pit? I seldom use it in because a) I never tutor for it (there's always something better); b) I don't cast it at all, because I already happen to have a sac outlet and I can use the mana for something else. Does it serve any particular purpose for you?
For me, it's just additional sac outlet density that can recur with Titan. Sometimes I'll get extra sac fodder from it. I'm hoping for a better one (on legs) from the next set.
Cartographer fecthes any "plains", that means the duals as well. He's easily cast and easily fixes your mana. Plus you can blink/reanimate/abuse it.
Yup.
We like bodies to re-use/re-abuse.
A Lark/Guide loop with him as an incidental puts all our plains on the field. Ideally, you won't need them as you'll be killing your opponents with the loop anyway, but there are times that it happens.
Stick Skullclamp on him, sac him to Phyrexian Tower, get cards and mana, or sac him to Viscera Seer for a little scry.
Re-use him with Nim Deathmantle. Grave Pact/Butcher trigger if you're running the package.
Sac fodder for protecting Ghost Council
Plenty of uses for him.
Of course, I'm always looking for direct upgrades, if you have any suggestions on a better replacement.
Underworld Connections:
I hadn't really given that one much thought yet. I generally try to avoid getting 2 for 1'd by enchanting something, especially when one is a land. It is nice that Sun Titan could bring it back. And I love the artwork and flavor.
I also have the two Vivid Lands and would like to use them, what would you recommend swapping out for them? I'm missing a large number of the non-basic lands.
There's actually an effective and very budget way to do the manabase with only a few non-basics. The centerpiece is Emeria, the Sky Ruin. It's very powerful in this deck as long as you can get it active and have a way or two to recur it when it gets destroyed. I posted an example here.
Some "required" inclusions for that mana base are:
Generally, though, I think you'll find that mass reanimation is more trouble than it's worth.
This is personally why I prefer finesse rather than a gigantic wave of beat down. Combos that lock all of our opponents out give us time to get out infinite mana combos or other things that build up to a killing blow with Exsanguinate, Profane Command, very very large Vish'kals etc. They usually aren't hard to see. But, making sure you have a sac outlet in play will at least give you a response to mass control spells. There's a ridiculous amount of combos in the deck, so if you lose a couple pieces of one you're trying to set up and they get exiled, then it's frustrating but you can just start setting up for another combo. If you have all sorts of random stuff in your graveyard just to try and set up for a large beat down, then you're really asking for trouble.
Wholeheartedly, absolutely, completely agree with all this.
On a completely unrelated note, I'm running a couple test cards. Last night in a long running game I used ......
Always good to see testing reports with other cards.
Somewhat related, I'm seriously thinking about putting in Pull from Eternity back in. Lately, it seems that I've always got something in exile that I could really use in the yard. It's often the only thing keeping me from comboing out. It might make me a little less afraid of my own False Prophet too.
If you want budget, 3 color isn't quite friendly to that cause they just don't like functioning well without lots of duals. Mono and dual color decks tend to be much cheaper to build IME.
This is a point worth considering when on budget, but I'll add something to it.
If one of your colors is green, two and three color decks become much more affordable to build a reliable mana base for. You load up heavy on the forests/green to ensure casting your ramp spells early, using the ramp to fetch the other needed colors/basics, and the ramp is always welcome in edh anyway.
Talking about sac outlets. What do you think of Cartel Aristocrat?
It is a sac outlet on a stick that can gain the evasion needed to push through some minor damage. Might be better with some Sword of XY though. I dunno. Perhaps in a different deck it is better.
That's my take...
With equipment package, maybe/probably, otherwise, probably not.
I'll play lots of rounds tonight with my deck with some adjustments I made, such as including Necromancy.
My U/G opponent has learned to kill on sight anything written "sacrifice a creature", sadly. Most cases they will bribery it though.
Yeah, it sounds like Angel of Despair isn't the problem, rather it's a player with a vendetta. I can't imagine a multiplayer table where I'd cast bribery and choose to get someones Angel rather than an Eldrazi or Terastodon. And now, a UG player (I would think) would probably be looking for a Sylvan Primordial.
You may have to play some politics differently to get him to stop targetting you, or make some temporary changes to protect yourself from that.
Off the top of my head:
It gets killed pretty quick here too. I rarely play it out unless I'm either ready to abuse it immediatley, or I've got something to recur it in hand (Titan, Beacon), or a backup replacement for when it does get nuked.
Keep dropping and recurring threats, and eventually you catch them flat-footed.
I've run both the Myojin and ID Crisis. Great cards, no doubt.
I totally get what you're saying about Angel, too. Sometimes she just feels like I could do a lot better, but I think of all the problems she has solved for me, and how many backs she's broken with Corpse Dance and Deathmantle, and I just can't bring myself to replace her.
Heck yeah, that's how I finally got mine. He'd be better if I ran an equipment package, but he's still pretty awesome.
Bring the pain, brother.
Purple Flurp and I were talking about Divinity just as a possibility for his particular situation. Seems like he's got one of those restrictive groups that don't like combos.
@Purple flurp - That group rule for Divinity kinda sucks, man. He's strong, but in no stretch of the imagination is he broken. I've seen a lot more people whine about Yosei than Divinity. My guess is they'll ban you from buying back Corpse Dance very soon.
Wurmcoil Engine would be pretty good in your build/circumstance. There are some pretty nasty mini-combos with him.
**edit - Current list updated. Sepulchral Primordial out, Vizkopa Guildmage in.
Another "abuses the crap out of him" crew checkin' in here.
Win percentage won't be quite as high without infi-combos, but you'll still be able to win a fair amount, and it will be a lot of fun to play. I win a lot of games without ever hitting an infi combo.
also...I'd be tempted to run Abyssal Persecutor. Very fun political card and not a bad beater.
Given your case (non-combo), I'd think a little bit of rattlesnake/defensive stuff and lifegain might serve you well. I'd probably try out something like..
Vizkopa is getting ready to go into my decklist. I've been playing around a bit with him, and he's been pretty awesome so far.
If you become the target of multiple players, without comboing out, there's really not much to do except fetch a sweeper and/or some damage prevention and hope for the best.
Could all help.
Looking over your list, I'd say you should probably drop a few recursion pieces and (given your non-combo strategy) put in a couple more big beaters and/or sweepers.
I'd probably drop:
That's awesome
Ashnod's Altar is another infinite enabler. Other than that, you should be fine.
I'm assuming you're counting creature based (like Angel of Despair) in spot removal spells, otherwise, that's a really heavy count.
For me, it's just additional sac outlet density that can recur with Titan. Sometimes I'll get extra sac fodder from it. I'm hoping for a better one (on legs) from the next set.
Yup.
We like bodies to re-use/re-abuse.
A Lark/Guide loop with him as an incidental puts all our plains on the field. Ideally, you won't need them as you'll be killing your opponents with the loop anyway, but there are times that it happens.
Stick Skullclamp on him, sac him to Phyrexian Tower, get cards and mana, or sac him to Viscera Seer for a little scry.
Re-use him with Nim Deathmantle.
Grave Pact/Butcher trigger if you're running the package.
Sac fodder for protecting Ghost Council
Plenty of uses for him.
Of course, I'm always looking for direct upgrades, if you have any suggestions on a better replacement.
Underworld Connections:
I hadn't really given that one much thought yet. I generally try to avoid getting 2 for 1'd by enchanting something, especially when one is a land. It is nice that Sun Titan could bring it back. And I love the artwork and flavor.
Yep, Burt Gummer
There's actually an effective and very budget way to do the manabase with only a few non-basics. The centerpiece is Emeria, the Sky Ruin. It's very powerful in this deck as long as you can get it active and have a way or two to recur it when it gets destroyed. I posted an example here.
Some "required" inclusions for that mana base are:
Wholeheartedly, absolutely, completely agree with all this.
Always good to see testing reports with other cards.
Somewhat related, I'm seriously thinking about putting in Pull from Eternity back in. Lately, it seems that I've always got something in exile that I could really use in the yard. It's often the only thing keeping me from comboing out. It might make me a little less afraid of my own False Prophet too.
Sweeet
This is a point worth considering when on budget, but I'll add something to it.
If one of your colors is green, two and three color decks become much more affordable to build a reliable mana base for. You load up heavy on the forests/green to ensure casting your ramp spells early, using the ramp to fetch the other needed colors/basics, and the ramp is always welcome in edh anyway.
- Cultivate
- Kodama's Reach
- Farseek
- Wood Elves
- Farhaven Elf
- Sakura-Tribe Elder
plus mana rocks and solemn simulacrum, and you're golden.There are many others available, those are just ones I usually think of.
That's my take...
With equipment package, maybe/probably, otherwise, probably not.
We talkin' Necromancy or Necropotence?
Yeah, it sounds like Angel of Despair isn't the problem, rather it's a player with a vendetta. I can't imagine a multiplayer table where I'd cast bribery and choose to get someones Angel rather than an Eldrazi or Terastodon. And now, a UG player (I would think) would probably be looking for a Sylvan Primordial.
You may have to play some politics differently to get him to stop targetting you, or make some temporary changes to protect yourself from that.
Off the top of my head: