Planning on playing with a more casual group in the near future. By "more casual", I still expect a competitive atmosphere, but less degenerate strategies than I'm used to. Instead of playing my list that's basically shotgun Food Chain combo on turn 3-4, I've slowed the deck down to win via combat damage (the most acceptable form of winning). The one thing I never liked about the traditional Prossh lists is that it was always so cumbersome to win with. You had to assemble multiple pump spells to ensure that you could 1-shot the table, otherwise you risk another player (or two) retaliating fiercely. In all of my games, Craterhoof Behemoth was the all-star, mainly because he provided trample and there are many, many ways to cheat creatures into play using Jund colors.
Fast forward about a year later, an elf-ball Prossh decklist that finished in both 1st and 2nd at a 1v1 tournament got my gears spinning. The whole list revolved around cheating Craterhoof into play. Why? Because, simply, it's the best at what it does. Unfortunately in multiplayer, a singleton Craterhoof is not enough to finish off the table most of the time, and I therefore dismissed the list. However, by some weird coincidence, I managed to derive yet another way to play Prossh. What if we could Craterhoof twice? The idea dawned on me when I was looking for Craterhoof duplicates and realized that, paired with Prossh's sacrifice ability, you could easily run the gamut of cheap reanimation spells to bring him back.
I would love opinions on this list. It's still a work in progress, but here are the primary lines of play:
Plan A - Double Craterhoof: revolves around tutoring for either Natural Order or Pattern of Rebirth on a mana dork to cheat Craterhoof into play, then sacrificing it to Prossh, then reanimating it again with any reanimation spell. You can also utilize Entomb, Jarad's Order, Buried Alive, or Survival of the Fittest to dump him into the yard. You can also just hardcast it by utilizing Gaea's Cradle.
Plan B - Beatdown & Avenger of Zendikar: the deck still has a host of ways to pump lethal damage without Craterhoof's help; see Beastmaster Ascension, Shared Animosity, and Coat of Arms. In the instance that he's exiled or shutdown during combat, you can default to utilizing your tutors for beatdown cards, and the same spells you use to abuse Craterhoof can now be utilized for Avenger of Zendikar. Note the inclusion of Anger and Purphoros, God of the Forge that play well with Avenger.
Plan C - Food Chain: in the end, I still opted to include this in the deck as an alternative strategy. It now only has one partner: Purphoros, God of the Forge, but can also be used in a pinch as ramp.
Junk players have started adopting Timely Reinforcements, Bow of Nylea, and Siege Rhino. As UR Delver and Burn become more and more popular thanks to treasure cruise, these cards start to rise in value. It helps that the latter two are also great cards in all fair matchups.
I'm not sure if I should be taken aback or applauding this abomination. Guess it's worth trying out in the very least. He's also sporting the full set of Siege Rhinos with a few Lotus Cobras to help. Creeping Tar Pit is also a quality man land that doesn't see enough play right now.
Assuming the MTGO metagame, how would you configure your deck to best handle the situation? There was one list I saw the popped up the day before. Modified it a little bit.
I'm a big fan of the 4/4/4 split for Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Decay. Also like that Disfigure is being played. One is probably the right number, since Dismember is much more flexible. Not a fan of the random Courser, so I bumped up the Bob count again, even with Burn and UR Delver everywhere.
What's everyone's opinions on the anti Delver/Burn cards? Obstinate Baloth vs Kitchen Finks vs Timely Reinforcements. And Leyline of Sanctity, is it needed?
@ AGO:
I've been adding a lot of my insight, analysis, decklists, etc. to this thread. I've also answered many questions in an in-depth manner. If you need someone to co-pilot a [Primer] with you, you know that I'm well up for it. It also helps that we more or less have the same vision for Nekusar, the Mindrazer: control then pain (he is 67% U/B, after all, lol).
@ MCR:
I think it's a great idea that you'd redirect your first page to AGO's list if AGO's gonna be dedicated enough to make it go [Primer]. I think the reason people gravitate towards your thread is because it's 20 pages long. I started a thread more or less the same time you did and hardly anyone answered in mine so I decided to answer in yours. Hell, my sig doesn't even link to mine; it links to yours, lol.
Yea it's unfortunate. After playing this deck once or twice, I knew I wasn't going to want to spend too much time developing it. All of my energy went into optimizing Prossh instead. If you guys start a new primer, I will definitely redirect there, and this thread can just be an archive of old discussions.
Hey awesome list! I saw one on MTGtop 8 recently that also used Seton. IMO looks a lot more fun than Ezuri as a mono-green elfball deck.
I'm kind of interested in see how the variants play out. Enchantress for card advantage - is it worth it? What enchantments would you run?
I think that Winter Orb, Ritual of Subdual, Kill Switch should all be in the deck if playing in a more competitive metagame.
So after combing through this thread and discussing with a few friends, I am going to give this deck a shot. I have a new list that is primarily focused around resolving multiple copies of Molten Psyche, because it is honestly the the most powerful way to win here (imo) without using excessive amounts of moving pieces.
I think moxnix was right, at the beginning of the thread, that this deck would thrive most by playing almost like a Storm deck. Will post my testing results soon.
I have played both versions of Nekusar. They both have there merits, but I believe the control version is much stronger. The storm version can win out of nowhere, but also be shut down very easily. Making it an auto lose if you get blown out. I prefer to control then drop some damage enablers and wheel wheel for the win.
Firestorm is unplayable. That would suck to have countered. It is also something I would not want to see in my starting hand.
Also I might open my own thread on this. The front page has not been updated and there are a lot of cards that could be considered for inclusion in the deck that I do not run that other might like. If anyone is interested in starting a primer with me let me know.
AGO,
It might make sense for one of you guys to take over this thread or at least have joint authorship over it. I noticed other people coming up with their own threads but this one just keeps growing. I definitely will not be playing this deck as my main deck (my group hates Nekusar). Would this be something you're interested in, or multiple people perhaps?
And being a graphic designer I could make some cool banners and whatnot for this thread as well. Let me contact a mod and see what I can do for you guys.
EDIT:
So I spoke to a mod, and I don't think they'll be able to transfer ownership. What I can do is post your primer into the front page if you'd like me to, and I'll be diligent about updates. Not sure if you want to do that, as it won't be "your" thread. But since this one has been acting like a magnet, I think it'd be an okay solution. Otherwise I could just have a link at the front page that redirects people to your primer. Your call.
No need to fuzz mate. I am skeptical of every card included, because my angle is different and my meta-bias. Sounds like you are somewhat frustrated.
I think we missed points all together. If I have Prossh out and Food Chain, but none of the Win Conditions (Goblin Bushwhacker, Blood Artist, Hissing Iguanar, Falkenrath Noble and so on) you want tutors to find them, not? Signal the clans is such a tutor at instant speed. If you have them in your hand, no problem at all. Or are you going to cast your other tutors for free (except summoning pact of course).
Diving witch, just cut wood elves in my deck and goldfished a bit as I never have seen that card being played. It's good! Alas that one time where the card I was looking for was in the first 2 already. That was... hard.
As I said... Gaea's cradle is one of the more redundant cards in the deck.. You just summed up the reasons why.
You have 7% chance of drawing the Serum Powder. That's not too shabby, so I'd say go for it.
Did you get the chance to test out this setup of the deck allready?
Sorry if I came off frustrated, it's just that several of the same inquiries have been voiced over the course of the thread that keep asking the same thing. Apologies.
So again, with the Signal the Clans issue - there are already 12 kill conditions / ways to fetch them in the deck without paying a single mana. If I felt that the list needed more, I would start going down the list of other creature kill conditions before even considering running signal. These include: Rage Thrower, Extractor Demon, and if I got desperate, Ogre Battledriver, Soul of the Harvest, and Primordial Sage. Even Flamekin Harbinger would be better, because it's at least a creature that can be fed to Food Chain. The whole point of running so many win conditions, even though they're completely redundant, is so that you have a high chance of having an opening hand with one, or they can be used to feed to Food Chain in the case of showing up in multiples.
As for Divining Witch, it's one of the risks of playing with this deck. The only reason it can be up to par with the other control decks is because we get to play with all of the forbidden tutors: Demonic Consultation, Tainted Pact, and Divining Witch. At one point I was even considering playing Spoils of the Vault lol.
As for Gaea's Cradle, I guess I misunderstood about what you meant by "redundant". There's nothing that's redundant with Cradle - it is the only card in the deck that produces its effect.
And yes, I've tested this setup. I've been playing the same deck for quite a while now. Little modifications here and there are just about all I can do to it unless someone has revolutionary tech that I am unaware of, or the printing of new cards. It's actually the biggest reason why I post here, so that people can show up with gems that I hadn't found or thought of.
Thanks for participating. As I've said before, any and all comments are welcome.
So after combing through this thread and discussing with a few friends, I am going to give this deck a shot. I have a new list that is primarily focused around resolving multiple copies of Molten Psyche, because it is honestly the the most powerful way to win here (imo) without using excessive amounts of moving pieces.
I think moxnix was right, at the beginning of the thread, that this deck would thrive most by playing almost like a Storm deck. Will post my testing results soon.
Indeed, I was playing a slightly modified version of Elfball (more like the one vs one lists).
I ran smooth… but that is all it did. The small intricate reactions are fun to play with, but in the long run they offer us nothing extraordinary of game-winning. Quite the contrary actually, as they took away a lot of the spaces I normally reserve for pure value cards. So I'm going to tick that off as a possibility.
I still think Yisan is strong, but so slow. Unfortunately. Also the three mana is quite the sink.
About Signal the clans (I'm becoming an old bore I'm afraid): it is just another tutor. I agree that it only fetches cratures, but that is all I need it to do. As you said it yourself, mana for creatures is not a problem with food chain in play. The kill-condition becomes everything. So I opted to go for this specific tutor, it might be a second-rate tutor but the chance of someone countering it is slight to almost none as nobody seems to check the potential that it could bring to the table. 2-mana kill con fetch end of turn.
How is Divining witch working for you? I don't have experience with the card and removing the top 6 looks "fragile".
Also: why wouldn't you switch the Priest for the Archdruid? Her lord ability makes her well worth the 1 extra mana, but than again I have not played with your list, so I don't know how tight the mana is..
I would never cash in that Gaea's Cradle, but it is one of the most redundant cards in the deck. So I understand your concern. I've actually added the pain-lands to my deck last night.
And Serum Powder: Don't know what you would cut for it. I always try to have a tutor in hand to go off at any given moment, as since you run 17 of them, I don't think you'll need it that much, in theory.
I'll continue crafting my Prossh-control list. Too bad the elves proved to be nothing.
I think you missed the entire point about why I'm not playing Signal the Clans. You're never supposed to pay mana for your win conditions in this deck, because this deck pays for its win conditions with infinite mana from Food Chain. Why would you run it over just another win condition? It can't even be used to fetch edge-case creatures, so it's an auto-cut in my book. The only time it might be useful outside of fetching a win condition is doing a split with Burning-Tree Emissary, Priest of Gix, and Wood Elves for a huge mana boost. But still not worth it to me. I'd play Flamekin Harbinger first.
And again, if people don't see the value of Divining Witch, it's cause they haven't played this incarnation of the deck yet. Anything that can be a creature, SHOULD be a creature. The fact that I can play it on turn 2, activate on turn 3, then eat it to Food Chain is a HUGE difference. Every 2CMC creature you play counts as a Dark Ritual towards casting Prossh. That is the defining point of this deck.
Priest of Titania for Elvish Archdruid? Not a chance in hell. I'm already skeptical running 2CMC elves in a combo deck that is trying to go off ASAP. A lord effect literally does nothing for this deck of less than 20 elves and definitely never using the combat step outside of infinite damage.
Gaea's Cradle has been mediocre and awkward. As I began shaving lands from the deck, I would open hands with no green source and a Cradle. It's also frustrating to know that I'll probably only ever get a single green mana out of it for the majority of the time. As I've stated, it's not good when it's the first land played, and you need to have a 1-drop to make it effective by turn 2. In a deck that wants to win by the third or fourth turn, I don't think it's providing the oomph it's meant to be providing - not with so many dependancies, not in a deck with only 9 1-drops.
Serum Powder, Street Wraith, and Manamorphose are all cards I've been looking at, but the Powder looks the most promising. Opening hands are crucial for this deck - why not increase your odds of finding a good one? What if you don't open with a tutor, even after you've paris'd away several cards? I definitely see its value.
Lastly, Prossh control and Prossh elves are both real things. Mid-range combo Prossh is also very good. But none of them can match the speed of this deck, which is virtually Hermit Druid / Storm speed now. I've played almost every version to some extent, and I still think this is by far the most competitive.
I obviously lack your experience with the deck, but I agree that the demon runs the risk of unintended answers to milling strategies, whereas damage does not and it is preferable for Rage Thrower or 'Thoctar.
This is likely further back, but your thread is impressively long, it seems like if Chord of Calling was once cut, it should have a renewed place now, as it can search out the Goblin Bushwhacker and Chancellor of the Forge, as well as Thoctar or Rage Thrower. The three green may be difficult, but not impossible with the number of elves being run and does allow some resilience potentially.
Since your last build, I've been attempting to mediate between your pure speed and some combos, although I recognise you know what you're doing here one day when I have had more practice I may be able to better comment.
Chord of Calling was cut because the green mana is just unable to be produced. It's too expensive for what it does, and I would rather just run another win condition in place of it.
And I still value your (and everyone else's) contributions to this thread, regardless of experience. It makes me ponder my choices; deckbuilding in EDH is often distorted by the fractal lens of subjective experiences. Having more angles to put the pieces together is invaluable.
Perhaps it's a matter of different meta games or something, but I find that the fast mana doesn't really hurt me. On the other hand, it is arguable that the speed increase is not worthwhile. Where I play, the all-or-nothing build works well for me.
For example, Simian Spirit Guide is worthwhile when I play, since it fuels so well the likes of Guttural Response and Pyroblast. In fact, the general utility as one-shot ramp has been useful for me too.
This play style, however, is most certainly not without its risks, but the risks I run seem somewhat insubstantial where I play.
That's several lines of my saying the same thing. Heh.
All this said, I think that there is a strong argument that reducing these cards is not a bad idea. I am not too surprised that the elf-based deck did not work out too well, sadly. Was it the board wipes that caused the biggest problem?
I'm sticking with Extractor Demon simply because I like the card. Perhaps a sacrifice in efficiency for preference, but that's just me.
Has Sylvan Ranger been a boon for you? I know that people like it and Gatecreeper Vine for the likes of Prossh and Animar, but they both feel like such dead cards whenever I've drawn them, even with Food Chain.
Thanks for stopping by. As one of the few people that have actually played the deck, your participation makes me warm and fuzzy inside rofl.
I think it's just that I've played enough solitaired games to know that I'd rather keep cards than shed them for slight acceleration, because I often want to keep the cards I'm tossing away. I also tried a version of the deck like yours, where I ran every mana accelerant possible. In the end, it was still very important to have a dork in play to start your feed chain a lot easier. That's why I have cards like Quirion Sentinel and Wood Elves. The only reason I'm not playing Priest of Urabrask, Akki Rockspeaker, and Gatecreeper Vine anymore is because they produce red mana (the most useless color in this deck overall), and they're not elves (to help Priest of Titania). But running at 32 lands, Sylvan Ranger is definitely worth her weight in gold.
The elves issue is that it requires too much of a tribal investment to get anything worthwhile going. Then all the non-1-cmc elves are just worse than playing other ramp, like signets or Nature's Lore. The only two that made it were Devoted Druid and Priest of Titania, as well as some utility elves. It's a side dish, not the main course.
Overall I will agree that this deck is criminally underplayed for how fast and consistent it is. Thanks for helping rep it
EDIT:
OH YES! Before I forget - I'm thinking of cashing in Gaea's Cradle for Karplusan Forest or some other land because we're not maximizing it's potential with less than 10 1-drops and 32 lands. I can sometimes get it to 3 tops, but most of the time it's 1 and it really screws up my mulligans.
ON THAT NOTE, what do people think of Serum Powder?
So after an evening and a afternoon of multiplayer with some changes:
Yisan: crazy ability, but slowish. It takes some time to get up the verse counters. At two or three he finds most of the deck, but he became quite target once people saw what he could do. Ohwell, means less removal of the other creatures I suppose.
Fauna shaman: better than I expected.
Signal the clans: wow. Beast. With Prossh and food chain on the board this is a kill condition in its own right. The three I always searched for were: goblin bushwacker, purphoros and chancellor of the forge. Even randomised you have a way to kill for two mana.
Dosan the falling leaf. So much control on a single card. In the turns before I set up the wincondition this was always the card I looked for. Even more than contamination.
Hornet nest: good. The tokens having deathtouch and flying is good, as my current setup does not have much protection against flyers. Throwing it in front off a hasted Zurgo was awesome.
No cardtags, I'm typing from my phone, sorry!
Hey so it looks like you were playing elf version?
After some more contemplation, research, and sampling a few dozen hands, I have concluded that a full-on elf ball version of the deck just isn't viable in multiplayer. Sure, you could play the list in a less cutthroat environment. It's actually quite good there, with tons of value plays and cool things you can do over the course of a 10+ turn game. In my primary playgroup, however, decks tend to shoot for the stars starting around turn 4. Because this deck is aggressive by nature, it's hard to try and insert control-type elements into the list without gumming up the strategy. Cards like Contaminaton or Blood Moon are great, but the deck itself doesn't do anything even if you have a soft lock in place. In 1v1, a soft lock is ALL you need because combat damage via Prossh is still highly relevant. All of the 1v1 deck's plays revolve around value, synergy, and Craterhoof Behemoth. While it's admirable, FCP has no room for these cards.
The issue is solely in the fact that you must deal 120 damage across three different opponents. In 1v1, this is not a problem with Prossh. You can get there naturally with your tokens holding the fort, and with cards like Xenagos, God of Revels. In multiplayer, you must rely on combo, so that means you're either utilizing Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Necrotic Ooze, or Food Chain. In this deck, Food Chain is the only real answer, because every other strategy asks for a wildly different set of supporting cards.
I stand by my original list for now. I don't think there's another avenue that Prossh can take that will make the deck comparable to the best in the format. Soft lock cards aren't even impossible to play around. A turn 2 Blood Moon can be circumvented by most Esper decks thanks to the sheer number of artifact accelerants they run. The speed issue is very real - the only question is how much speed can you give up in favor of resilience.
After speaking with Shady Wolf, another player who has piloted this list, I've decided a few rules for this deck. Speed is absolutely crucial, yes, but predictability has become a problem. One of the main issues with this deck is how suicidal it is when it comes to throwing away cards for speed. In light of this, I've opted out from perceived staples such as Mox Diamond because, being in non-blue, I really can't afford to throw away cards. Every single card is important. Even a card like Simian Spirit Guide is -1 card for +1 mana. Not worth it. The cards I will keep are the ones that create a large enough advantage to be worth my time. Cards like Dark Ritual and Orcish Lumberjack can be argued to be 1 card for X mana, but the mana is so much more significant for the card spent. Worth it. In Force of Ill's example above, Signal the Clans is a fine card, but why play Signal over another finisher? Finisher in this deck are, in 99% of all scenarios, completely free thanks to Food Chain. Why spend 2 mana? The only creature tutor I would play in this deck is Eladamri's Call since I can be specific about what I want. Unfortunately we're not in that cut of the color pie.
This revelation also led me to just completely cut Survival of the Fittest and Fauna Shaman. You're essentially giving up 2 cards and a lot of mana for 1 card. Including Squee, Goblin Nabob isn't going to help either because the amount of time it takes to get the engine going. The only argument you could make for Survival of the Fittest would be to include Basking Rootwalla and Vengevine. At that point, Survival does become quite good, since it is a 1 stop shop for both ramp and tutor chains into your finisher. But even this is realistically too mana intensive to be good, and takes up a lot of slots in the deck for one card. Counting the mana, it'd cost GGGGR4, or 9 mana, all in the same turn to go off. Not worth it. Instead of Survival, I opted just to include another finisher.
Speaking of finishers, I was going to stick this portion in the primer, but I'd like to have everyone's opinions as well. I prefer finishers that cost 5 or less because in the even that I need more creatures to feed chain into Prossh, redundant cards could be turned into mana ramp. However, I think I've exhausted all creature-based possibilities that aren't vulnerable to spot removal. At our 6 drop slot we have Rage Thrower, Extractor Demon, and Deathbringer Thoctar. I chose the thoctar because it can be used to ping creatures. The demon offers an alternate win, but I don't think it's necessary.
Blue elves are definitely the strongest in multiplayer, but they aren't always 100% elf-centric.
A close runnerup would be Nath, who I think you're underestimating. He has some backbreaking plays (like Death Cloud or Sadistic Hypnotist), as well as access to black, making up for virtually all of elves' traditional weaknesses (resilience, raw card advantage, tutoring, control).
And I would also second that Ezuri can get out of hand quickly. I haven't played the deck myself, but the damage comes out of nowhere. The only thing that gives me peace of mind is knowing that they don't have tutors to consistently infinite me out of the game.
Until I asked them what their reaction would be on somebody playing Mirari's Wake. One of them blurted, withouth thinking, "KILL ON SIGHT". They all got it then:)
In a 4-man-pod, I played Mirari's Wake on t5 in my Karador. My friends killed me before my t6, and then played normally. Was very sad.
I lol'd. Thank you for that.
I would play it if I ever made a GWx deck. But I have an irrational hatred towards the color pair, so nope.
Planning on playing with a more casual group in the near future. By "more casual", I still expect a competitive atmosphere, but less degenerate strategies than I'm used to. Instead of playing my list that's basically shotgun Food Chain combo on turn 3-4, I've slowed the deck down to win via combat damage (the most acceptable form of winning). The one thing I never liked about the traditional Prossh lists is that it was always so cumbersome to win with. You had to assemble multiple pump spells to ensure that you could 1-shot the table, otherwise you risk another player (or two) retaliating fiercely. In all of my games, Craterhoof Behemoth was the all-star, mainly because he provided trample and there are many, many ways to cheat creatures into play using Jund colors.
Fast forward about a year later, an elf-ball Prossh decklist that finished in both 1st and 2nd at a 1v1 tournament got my gears spinning. The whole list revolved around cheating Craterhoof into play. Why? Because, simply, it's the best at what it does. Unfortunately in multiplayer, a singleton Craterhoof is not enough to finish off the table most of the time, and I therefore dismissed the list. However, by some weird coincidence, I managed to derive yet another way to play Prossh. What if we could Craterhoof twice? The idea dawned on me when I was looking for Craterhoof duplicates and realized that, paired with Prossh's sacrifice ability, you could easily run the gamut of cheap reanimation spells to bring him back.
I would love opinions on this list. It's still a work in progress, but here are the primary lines of play:
Plan A - Double Craterhoof: revolves around tutoring for either Natural Order or Pattern of Rebirth on a mana dork to cheat Craterhoof into play, then sacrificing it to Prossh, then reanimating it again with any reanimation spell. You can also utilize Entomb, Jarad's Order, Buried Alive, or Survival of the Fittest to dump him into the yard. You can also just hardcast it by utilizing Gaea's Cradle.
Plan B - Beatdown & Avenger of Zendikar: the deck still has a host of ways to pump lethal damage without Craterhoof's help; see Beastmaster Ascension, Shared Animosity, and Coat of Arms. In the instance that he's exiled or shutdown during combat, you can default to utilizing your tutors for beatdown cards, and the same spells you use to abuse Craterhoof can now be utilized for Avenger of Zendikar. Note the inclusion of Anger and Purphoros, God of the Forge that play well with Avenger.
Plan C - Food Chain: in the end, I still opted to include this in the deck as an alternative strategy. It now only has one partner: Purphoros, God of the Forge, but can also be used in a pinch as ramp.
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Win Conditions
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Food Chain
1 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Natural Order
//The Beats
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Shared Animosity
1 Coat of Arms
//Abuse
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
//Cheat
1 Twinflame
1 Heat Shimmer
1 Reanimate
1 Life // Death
1 Shallow Grave
1 Animate Dead
1 Necromancy
1 Footsteps of the Goryo
1 Corpse Dance
1 Apprentice Necromancer
//Utility
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Anger
//Removal
1 Nature's Claim
1 Vandalblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Hull Breach
1 Ashes to Ashes
1 Reckless Spite
1 Fire Covenant
//Tutors
1 Entomb
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Tainted Pact
1 Grim Tutor
1 Buried Alive
1 Jarad's Orders
1 Dark Confidant
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Dark Tutelage
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Necropotence
//Creature Ramp
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Boreal Druid
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Greenweaver Druid
1 Fyndhorn Elder
1 Nantuko Elder
1 Somberwald Sage
//Other Ramp
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Coalition Relic
//Lands
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Twilight Mire
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
I'm not sure if I should be taken aback or applauding this abomination. Guess it's worth trying out in the very least. He's also sporting the full set of Siege Rhinos with a few Lotus Cobras to help. Creeping Tar Pit is also a quality man land that doesn't see enough play right now.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/248605#online
I'm a big fan of the 4/4/4 split for Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Decay. Also like that Disfigure is being played. One is probably the right number, since Dismember is much more flexible. Not a fan of the random Courser, so I bumped up the Bob count again, even with Burn and UR Delver everywhere.
What's everyone's opinions on the anti Delver/Burn cards? Obstinate Baloth vs Kitchen Finks vs Timely Reinforcements. And Leyline of Sanctity, is it needed?
This. Izzet's "Tooth and Nail".
Yea it's unfortunate. After playing this deck once or twice, I knew I wasn't going to want to spend too much time developing it. All of my energy went into optimizing Prossh instead. If you guys start a new primer, I will definitely redirect there, and this thread can just be an archive of old discussions.
I'm kind of interested in see how the variants play out. Enchantress for card advantage - is it worth it? What enchantments would you run?
I think that Winter Orb, Ritual of Subdual, Kill Switch should all be in the deck if playing in a more competitive metagame.
I'm a bit iffy on Null Rod mainly cause my version runs Memory Jar, Umbral Mantle, and Staff of Domination - key pieces to victory.
AGO,
It might make sense for one of you guys to take over this thread or at least have joint authorship over it. I noticed other people coming up with their own threads but this one just keeps growing. I definitely will not be playing this deck as my main deck (my group hates Nekusar). Would this be something you're interested in, or multiple people perhaps?
And being a graphic designer I could make some cool banners and whatnot for this thread as well. Let me contact a mod and see what I can do for you guys.
EDIT:
So I spoke to a mod, and I don't think they'll be able to transfer ownership. What I can do is post your primer into the front page if you'd like me to, and I'll be diligent about updates. Not sure if you want to do that, as it won't be "your" thread. But since this one has been acting like a magnet, I think it'd be an okay solution. Otherwise I could just have a link at the front page that redirects people to your primer. Your call.
Sorry if I came off frustrated, it's just that several of the same inquiries have been voiced over the course of the thread that keep asking the same thing. Apologies.
So again, with the Signal the Clans issue - there are already 12 kill conditions / ways to fetch them in the deck without paying a single mana. If I felt that the list needed more, I would start going down the list of other creature kill conditions before even considering running signal. These include: Rage Thrower, Extractor Demon, and if I got desperate, Ogre Battledriver, Soul of the Harvest, and Primordial Sage. Even Flamekin Harbinger would be better, because it's at least a creature that can be fed to Food Chain. The whole point of running so many win conditions, even though they're completely redundant, is so that you have a high chance of having an opening hand with one, or they can be used to feed to Food Chain in the case of showing up in multiples.
As for Divining Witch, it's one of the risks of playing with this deck. The only reason it can be up to par with the other control decks is because we get to play with all of the forbidden tutors: Demonic Consultation, Tainted Pact, and Divining Witch. At one point I was even considering playing Spoils of the Vault lol.
As for Gaea's Cradle, I guess I misunderstood about what you meant by "redundant". There's nothing that's redundant with Cradle - it is the only card in the deck that produces its effect.
And yes, I've tested this setup. I've been playing the same deck for quite a while now. Little modifications here and there are just about all I can do to it unless someone has revolutionary tech that I am unaware of, or the printing of new cards. It's actually the biggest reason why I post here, so that people can show up with gems that I hadn't found or thought of.
Thanks for participating. As I've said before, any and all comments are welcome.
I think moxnix was right, at the beginning of the thread, that this deck would thrive most by playing almost like a Storm deck. Will post my testing results soon.
I think you missed the entire point about why I'm not playing Signal the Clans. You're never supposed to pay mana for your win conditions in this deck, because this deck pays for its win conditions with infinite mana from Food Chain. Why would you run it over just another win condition? It can't even be used to fetch edge-case creatures, so it's an auto-cut in my book. The only time it might be useful outside of fetching a win condition is doing a split with Burning-Tree Emissary, Priest of Gix, and Wood Elves for a huge mana boost. But still not worth it to me. I'd play Flamekin Harbinger first.
And again, if people don't see the value of Divining Witch, it's cause they haven't played this incarnation of the deck yet. Anything that can be a creature, SHOULD be a creature. The fact that I can play it on turn 2, activate on turn 3, then eat it to Food Chain is a HUGE difference. Every 2CMC creature you play counts as a Dark Ritual towards casting Prossh. That is the defining point of this deck.
Priest of Titania for Elvish Archdruid? Not a chance in hell. I'm already skeptical running 2CMC elves in a combo deck that is trying to go off ASAP. A lord effect literally does nothing for this deck of less than 20 elves and definitely never using the combat step outside of infinite damage.
Gaea's Cradle has been mediocre and awkward. As I began shaving lands from the deck, I would open hands with no green source and a Cradle. It's also frustrating to know that I'll probably only ever get a single green mana out of it for the majority of the time. As I've stated, it's not good when it's the first land played, and you need to have a 1-drop to make it effective by turn 2. In a deck that wants to win by the third or fourth turn, I don't think it's providing the oomph it's meant to be providing - not with so many dependancies, not in a deck with only 9 1-drops.
Serum Powder, Street Wraith, and Manamorphose are all cards I've been looking at, but the Powder looks the most promising. Opening hands are crucial for this deck - why not increase your odds of finding a good one? What if you don't open with a tutor, even after you've paris'd away several cards? I definitely see its value.
Lastly, Prossh control and Prossh elves are both real things. Mid-range combo Prossh is also very good. But none of them can match the speed of this deck, which is virtually Hermit Druid / Storm speed now. I've played almost every version to some extent, and I still think this is by far the most competitive.
Chord of Calling was cut because the green mana is just unable to be produced. It's too expensive for what it does, and I would rather just run another win condition in place of it.
And I still value your (and everyone else's) contributions to this thread, regardless of experience. It makes me ponder my choices; deckbuilding in EDH is often distorted by the fractal lens of subjective experiences. Having more angles to put the pieces together is invaluable.
Thanks for stopping by. As one of the few people that have actually played the deck, your participation makes me warm and fuzzy inside rofl.
I think it's just that I've played enough solitaired games to know that I'd rather keep cards than shed them for slight acceleration, because I often want to keep the cards I'm tossing away. I also tried a version of the deck like yours, where I ran every mana accelerant possible. In the end, it was still very important to have a dork in play to start your feed chain a lot easier. That's why I have cards like Quirion Sentinel and Wood Elves. The only reason I'm not playing Priest of Urabrask, Akki Rockspeaker, and Gatecreeper Vine anymore is because they produce red mana (the most useless color in this deck overall), and they're not elves (to help Priest of Titania). But running at 32 lands, Sylvan Ranger is definitely worth her weight in gold.
The elves issue is that it requires too much of a tribal investment to get anything worthwhile going. Then all the non-1-cmc elves are just worse than playing other ramp, like signets or Nature's Lore. The only two that made it were Devoted Druid and Priest of Titania, as well as some utility elves. It's a side dish, not the main course.
Overall I will agree that this deck is criminally underplayed for how fast and consistent it is. Thanks for helping rep it
EDIT:
OH YES! Before I forget - I'm thinking of cashing in Gaea's Cradle for Karplusan Forest or some other land because we're not maximizing it's potential with less than 10 1-drops and 32 lands. I can sometimes get it to 3 tops, but most of the time it's 1 and it really screws up my mulligans.
ON THAT NOTE, what do people think of Serum Powder?
Hey so it looks like you were playing elf version?
After some more contemplation, research, and sampling a few dozen hands, I have concluded that a full-on elf ball version of the deck just isn't viable in multiplayer. Sure, you could play the list in a less cutthroat environment. It's actually quite good there, with tons of value plays and cool things you can do over the course of a 10+ turn game. In my primary playgroup, however, decks tend to shoot for the stars starting around turn 4. Because this deck is aggressive by nature, it's hard to try and insert control-type elements into the list without gumming up the strategy. Cards like Contaminaton or Blood Moon are great, but the deck itself doesn't do anything even if you have a soft lock in place. In 1v1, a soft lock is ALL you need because combat damage via Prossh is still highly relevant. All of the 1v1 deck's plays revolve around value, synergy, and Craterhoof Behemoth. While it's admirable, FCP has no room for these cards.
The issue is solely in the fact that you must deal 120 damage across three different opponents. In 1v1, this is not a problem with Prossh. You can get there naturally with your tokens holding the fort, and with cards like Xenagos, God of Revels. In multiplayer, you must rely on combo, so that means you're either utilizing Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Necrotic Ooze, or Food Chain. In this deck, Food Chain is the only real answer, because every other strategy asks for a wildly different set of supporting cards.
I stand by my original list for now. I don't think there's another avenue that Prossh can take that will make the deck comparable to the best in the format. Soft lock cards aren't even impossible to play around. A turn 2 Blood Moon can be circumvented by most Esper decks thanks to the sheer number of artifact accelerants they run. The speed issue is very real - the only question is how much speed can you give up in favor of resilience.
After speaking with Shady Wolf, another player who has piloted this list, I've decided a few rules for this deck. Speed is absolutely crucial, yes, but predictability has become a problem. One of the main issues with this deck is how suicidal it is when it comes to throwing away cards for speed. In light of this, I've opted out from perceived staples such as Mox Diamond because, being in non-blue, I really can't afford to throw away cards. Every single card is important. Even a card like Simian Spirit Guide is -1 card for +1 mana. Not worth it. The cards I will keep are the ones that create a large enough advantage to be worth my time. Cards like Dark Ritual and Orcish Lumberjack can be argued to be 1 card for X mana, but the mana is so much more significant for the card spent. Worth it. In Force of Ill's example above, Signal the Clans is a fine card, but why play Signal over another finisher? Finisher in this deck are, in 99% of all scenarios, completely free thanks to Food Chain. Why spend 2 mana? The only creature tutor I would play in this deck is Eladamri's Call since I can be specific about what I want. Unfortunately we're not in that cut of the color pie.
This revelation also led me to just completely cut Survival of the Fittest and Fauna Shaman. You're essentially giving up 2 cards and a lot of mana for 1 card. Including Squee, Goblin Nabob isn't going to help either because the amount of time it takes to get the engine going. The only argument you could make for Survival of the Fittest would be to include Basking Rootwalla and Vengevine. At that point, Survival does become quite good, since it is a 1 stop shop for both ramp and tutor chains into your finisher. But even this is realistically too mana intensive to be good, and takes up a lot of slots in the deck for one card. Counting the mana, it'd cost GGGGR4, or 9 mana, all in the same turn to go off. Not worth it. Instead of Survival, I opted just to include another finisher.
Speaking of finishers, I was going to stick this portion in the primer, but I'd like to have everyone's opinions as well. I prefer finishers that cost 5 or less because in the even that I need more creatures to feed chain into Prossh, redundant cards could be turned into mana ramp. However, I think I've exhausted all creature-based possibilities that aren't vulnerable to spot removal. At our 6 drop slot we have Rage Thrower, Extractor Demon, and Deathbringer Thoctar. I chose the thoctar because it can be used to ping creatures. The demon offers an alternate win, but I don't think it's necessary.
Here's the list as it stands now:
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Win Conditions
1 Food Chain
//Food Chain Kill Package
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Blood Artist
1 Hissing Iguanar
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Skullmulcher
1 Deathbringer Thoctar
1 Chancellor of the Forge
//Food Chain Support Package
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Goblin Matron
1 Fierce Empath
//Tutors
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Tainted Pact
1 Divining Witch
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Dimir Machinations
//Card Quality
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Dark Confidant
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Necropotence
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Riftsweeper
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Yawgmoth's Will
//Protection
1 Ricochet Trap
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Guttural Response
1 Autumn's Veil
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Defense Grid
1 Vexing Shusher
//Feed Chain Ramp
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Wall of Roots
1 Quirion Sentinel
1 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Wood Elves
1 Priest of Gix
//Ramp
1 Orcish Lumberjack
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Boreal Druid
1 Arbor Elf
1 Devoted Druid
1 Priest of Titania
//Cheating Ramp
1 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
A close runnerup would be Nath, who I think you're underestimating. He has some backbreaking plays (like Death Cloud or Sadistic Hypnotist), as well as access to black, making up for virtually all of elves' traditional weaknesses (resilience, raw card advantage, tutoring, control).
And I would also second that Ezuri can get out of hand quickly. I haven't played the deck myself, but the damage comes out of nowhere. The only thing that gives me peace of mind is knowing that they don't have tutors to consistently infinite me out of the game.
I lol'd. Thank you for that.
I would play it if I ever made a GWx deck. But I have an irrational hatred towards the color pair, so nope.