Agreed. UW control is nowhere near good enough right now, even with all the new toys. A straight control build pretty much autoloses to RDW. If you go with Dovin's Acuity/Revitalize to stay ahead of them then you lose to something like Grixis which just grinds much more effectively than you. In fact, I don't think a pure UW control deck can reliably beat Grixis no matter how you build it. The New Bolas is the real deal, they have up to 8 hand destruction spells, Thief of Sanity, Angrath's edict (or whatever it's called) for our Teferi's... it's just a whole bucket of nope.
It actually gives you the option. If your oppo's 'yard is empty it shows you yours as it is the only option with legal targets, but you can select 0 cards. This rally matters if you are running Search for Azcanta.
This deck is actually really, really good. I am on a 16-3 run in BO1 right now. It's quite different from the traditional Esper Control though. In fact, I came here looking for other people playing it, but haven't found anything. The combo is solid, but even if you can't make Kaya work you can still deck out your oppo.
I'm running 4 Ashiok and 3 Kaya for the combo, then a bunch of removal and draw/lifegain. Considering the prevalence of RDW on Arena, I decided to go with Dovin's Acuity and Revitalize rather than a full boat of Chemister's Insights. I only run 2 Teferis as you just don't need him. Kaya also gives you a little lifegain against RDW. It's incidental, but relevant. Right now this is my favourite deck in the new standard. I am building it in paper.
Rough list
4 Ashiok
3 Kaya
3 Dovin's Acuity
4 Revitalize
2 Chem's Insight
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
3 Kaya's Wrath
2 Vraska's Contempt
3 Mortify
2 Cast Down
2 Cry of the Carnarium
4 Thought Erasure
1 Ixalan's Binding
25 Land
I agree, Xaltair. It will take at least a few weeks for the meta to evolve so we can look at how we might be able to respond to the most common threats. As we all know, UW control is about addressing the key axes of attack. There are two times when that is good to do. The most common is after the format matures and you are down to 3 to 5 tier one decks. The other time is on the first couple of weekends of a new format when you just say "no" to everything.
The reality is that RDW in its current incarnation is pretty much an auto-loss for UW control and since that's the most prevalent deck...
I have a UW Control deck on Arena that I've been rocking in the BO1s for a while now and I was 65% against RDW, but that was when they were still more creature-based. Now the Spectacle cards give them gas and have skewed them to more direct damage. This makes them a lot harder for us to deal with because we have to address their damage spells card for card rather than taking care of multiple threats (creatures) with one of ours (sweepers). I also pretty much autolost to a resolved Experimental Frenzy. Then there's the fact that it's just so easy to play three or even four colours and doing so opens you up to much, much more powerful cards.
I'll be back on UW control in a little while I am sure, but for the next little while I expect to be casting Nexus of Fate a lot (because I don't like people).
Yep. Not worth the slot IMHO. I don't just want my counterspells to stops early threats. I also need them to win counterwars and those are more likely to be really nasty in the late game. Quench gets crappier and crappier the later in the game you go.
More than that, I think Growth Spiral is overrated. If you have one on T2 and don't want to play Search for Azcanta or need to play Revitalize (ie: a RDW match-up, which is at least 50% of your games online) then Spiral is okay. Otherwise it's super lame.
It's amazing to me that no one seems to be putting together Dawn of Hope and Wilderness Reclamation. I threw together a Bant deck this afternoon and promptly gained two levels on Arena.
Yeah, I'm grinding a lot of BO1s on Arena with Grixis too. 2 x Bolas, 1 x Ral, 4 x Eldest Reborn, 1 x Doom Whisperer. Eldest Reborn is such a beating. A buddy of mine likened it to a Planeswalker and I think I agree with him. I'm running 2 x Search for Azcanta right now but I think I might go to three. I find that I really want it on T2. I don't have Angarath so I couldn't give you an intelligent comment about him.
My local meta is similar to the MTGO meta but with more UW Control. I don't know if Approach is necessarily the right place to be right now but I definitely appreciate it time-wise as I do tend to play a little slow than most.
My two problems:
1. Opt. I've been relying on it as a bit of a crutch for the past few months but cut it post-DOM after we got access to more lists and I saw that none of them were playing it. For the remainder of this PPTQ season, is it worth it to simply play a 95% list that I'm more comfortable with? My area is very competitive so there's little chance of spiking a low-turnout event.
2. The Sideboard. How do I board against the mirror? I can board out all of my removal and risk losing to a Lyra or History, or I can keep it in and draw dead. I also want to rework the sideboard as I don't think mine is particularly optimal. I also can't really add a Karn as I only own 1 and don't want to spend too much.
Thanks for the help.
Thanks jst, glad you like it.
So...first off, there is a thread dedicated to UW Approach. Personally, I believe that Approach is identical to UW Control, only with Approaches in the Uferi slots, however there is some concern that I m in the minority in that so I'll be editing down the approach section of the Primer. I suggest you post there and hopefully you'll get some more valuable insight and help.
In the meantime...Approach is definitely not amazing in the mirror. You need to stockpile counters so you can fight over the second Approach and that makes interacting with Unferi harder. It's great against everything else, but I honestly don't think it's where you want to be right now.
1. Opt: There's nothing wrong with Opt. Some people dropped their Censors for Opt when it was reprinted -- something I thought incorrect; at least until I realized I was cycling five out of every six Censors. However, it doesn't really do a lot for you. It's not versatile or flexible at all. I guess that's not the issue though. There is nothing that says you HAVE to net deck. You are usually better off playing the deck you are uber comfortable with, than with a decklist you have trouble understanding.
2. Boarding for the mirror: With your list, I'd bring in the angels, Karn, the Negates and the Defeat. I'd drop the Scatter, the Fumigates, the Approaches, and maybe a Seal Away or two. You should still a have enough removal to manage their half dozen post board dorks. Your strategy has to be different n G2/3 -- regardless of their squatter status. Lyra gives you a great card for it's literature while the Negates will help you win.
Karn, Scion of Urza – I’ll be honest. I don’t get this one. He’s amazing in Vehicles and some other decks, but I don’t think he offers anything special to UW Control. I’m certainly not cutting removal or counters for him – and he definitely doesn’t get an Unferi slot! But, as you’ll see in the decklists below, he is showing up here and there so maybe I just don’t know what I don’t know. Hopefully thre will be some healthy debate in the comments.
Besides the fact that Karn is good in everything...
The typical opponent response to Karn's +1 is to give you a land. In a deck that wants to hit its first 15 land drops Karn's +1 becomes a lot stronger. You just tick him up forever while playing a land every turn and building up a library of exiled cards to pick up with his -1 at your leisure.
His high loyalty is the icing on the cake. If you've played any interaction on turn 2 or 3 then there's a decent chance you can slam Karn into a board with less than 6 power. Alternatively if you play him later after a sweeper or two it is tough for the opponent to muster up enough power to really threaten him.
In the end game using Karn's tokens instead of Teferi recursion is less likely to make the match go to time and/or end with your car being keyed after the tournament.
Thanks Jacob, I appreciate the insight. I guess it comes down to balance for me. I can certainly see how Karn would appeal to some. I am pretty happy with the card draw options we already have, but if you are cutting Illumination/Glimmer I see how some slots could open up. The cards being cut, however, are the ones that will find you a Settle or Fumigate you really need. It's like Karn is a cool card that does cool things, but I'm still not sure it does anything we really want/need to do. Maybe I just need to play it more...
This deck is actually really, really good. I am on a 16-3 run in BO1 right now. It's quite different from the traditional Esper Control though. In fact, I came here looking for other people playing it, but haven't found anything. The combo is solid, but even if you can't make Kaya work you can still deck out your oppo.
I'm running 4 Ashiok and 3 Kaya for the combo, then a bunch of removal and draw/lifegain. Considering the prevalence of RDW on Arena, I decided to go with Dovin's Acuity and Revitalize rather than a full boat of Chemister's Insights. I only run 2 Teferis as you just don't need him. Kaya also gives you a little lifegain against RDW. It's incidental, but relevant. Right now this is my favourite deck in the new standard. I am building it in paper.
Rough list
4 Ashiok
3 Kaya
3 Dovin's Acuity
4 Revitalize
2 Chem's Insight
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
3 Kaya's Wrath
2 Vraska's Contempt
3 Mortify
2 Cast Down
2 Cry of the Carnarium
4 Thought Erasure
1 Ixalan's Binding
25 Land
The reality is that RDW in its current incarnation is pretty much an auto-loss for UW control and since that's the most prevalent deck...
I have a UW Control deck on Arena that I've been rocking in the BO1s for a while now and I was 65% against RDW, but that was when they were still more creature-based. Now the Spectacle cards give them gas and have skewed them to more direct damage. This makes them a lot harder for us to deal with because we have to address their damage spells card for card rather than taking care of multiple threats (creatures) with one of ours (sweepers). I also pretty much autolost to a resolved Experimental Frenzy. Then there's the fact that it's just so easy to play three or even four colours and doing so opens you up to much, much more powerful cards.
I'll be back on UW control in a little while I am sure, but for the next little while I expect to be casting Nexus of Fate a lot (because I don't like people).
Yep. Not worth the slot IMHO. I don't just want my counterspells to stops early threats. I also need them to win counterwars and those are more likely to be really nasty in the late game. Quench gets crappier and crappier the later in the game you go.
More than that, I think Growth Spiral is overrated. If you have one on T2 and don't want to play Search for Azcanta or need to play Revitalize (ie: a RDW match-up, which is at least 50% of your games online) then Spiral is okay. Otherwise it's super lame.
I think your list is missing a few cards...29 spells, 25 land...
Thanks jst, glad you like it.
So...first off, there is a thread dedicated to UW Approach. Personally, I believe that Approach is identical to UW Control, only with Approaches in the Uferi slots, however there is some concern that I m in the minority in that so I'll be editing down the approach section of the Primer. I suggest you post there and hopefully you'll get some more valuable insight and help.
In the meantime...Approach is definitely not amazing in the mirror. You need to stockpile counters so you can fight over the second Approach and that makes interacting with Unferi harder. It's great against everything else, but I honestly don't think it's where you want to be right now.
1. Opt: There's nothing wrong with Opt. Some people dropped their Censors for Opt when it was reprinted -- something I thought incorrect; at least until I realized I was cycling five out of every six Censors. However, it doesn't really do a lot for you. It's not versatile or flexible at all. I guess that's not the issue though. There is nothing that says you HAVE to net deck. You are usually better off playing the deck you are uber comfortable with, than with a decklist you have trouble understanding.
2. Boarding for the mirror: With your list, I'd bring in the angels, Karn, the Negates and the Defeat. I'd drop the Scatter, the Fumigates, the Approaches, and maybe a Seal Away or two. You should still a have enough removal to manage their half dozen post board dorks. Your strategy has to be different n G2/3 -- regardless of their squatter status. Lyra gives you a great card for it's literature while the Negates will help you win.
Thanks Jacob, I appreciate the insight. I guess it comes down to balance for me. I can certainly see how Karn would appeal to some. I am pretty happy with the card draw options we already have, but if you are cutting Illumination/Glimmer I see how some slots could open up. The cards being cut, however, are the ones that will find you a Settle or Fumigate you really need. It's like Karn is a cool card that does cool things, but I'm still not sure it does anything we really want/need to do. Maybe I just need to play it more...