Sorry for the lack of posting. I've been busier than expected.
Still want to analyze all the wagons that have developed this game (especially now that two more have started and stopped...) but I don't have the time yet. Something is off here, where many wagons start up but none actually go anywhere.
I never saw what made Jobie scum in the first place so I'm definitely fine leaving him alive. Not sure how his burnout should be handled though.
Still don't like how Seppel is making very confident statements while claiming to still not have read the entire thread.
No longer sold on Azrael's play. Skimming your top scum's posts (multiple times)? Did you really believe him to be scum? As you said, you were "information generating". What would you have done if the wagon pushed through, and he flipped town? I guarantee you saying "Oh, I was getting information, and was skimming his posts." would get you strung up quick.
Problem is that I don't think generating information the way Az is is scummy. Because the ultimate goal of something like that is to benefit the town. The only information scum benefit from is role info (oops). So while him saying he was generating information makes all his wagons seem artificial, I don't think it makes Az scum.
I disliked Skander's attack on Az, IIRC it looked really misreppy. Will try to pinpoint what exactly bugged me about it. I believe part of it is that the way he talks isn't how I remember he talked.
What does this mean, and why are you now voting Jobie?
This game is extremely confusing, e.g. most recently how the interest in TFF/Az completely fizzled, and how Az revealed that he's been only been skimming the people that he's attacking, which barely garnered an eyebrow raise. I want to do an in-depth read of the thread but it'll have to wait until I'm done with midterms.
Not really sure. He's certainly being more useful than in Doha though that's not really a hard feat considering he was just a waste of a player slot in that game. I haven't seen him do anything that can't be explained by "lol im vezok".
...but he's accusing him of being scum because of it, and Az's earlier vote history doesn't just vanish. Az started the Manders wagon, and that wagon wasn't losing steam when Az jumped over to Cyan and TFF. Az's statement isn't a scum tipping his hand. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to say.
But the thing is if MH is scum it makes sense for Az start looking for other targets if he decided that he doesn't want to bus her after all.
It only doesn't make sense for scum-Az to switch if MH is town, and that certainly wasn't a given. And yet Az response assumes that is a given.
I've already made up my mind on Az vs. TFF. We don't have to worry about it now. Ok? Let's move on now.
I have no idea what this means.
Are you in the mood to read roughly 7 games featuring Jobie?
No but neither am I in the mode to string someone up solely based on someone else's meta read, especially when there's not much risk to that someone else in the case of a mislynch.
Again, how does this make sense from the perspective of someone who thought they just caught scum?
Or, answer this: Why did you decide that this particular time was a good idea to withhold info about your vote and what information did you hope to gain?
No, it shows that I currently assume MH is town, just as AI's argument assumed it. The reasons for that have already been made abundantly clear.
That's not true. AI's argument explicitly excludes MH from being one of the targets because you only started jumping around with your vote after you had already been voting MH for a while.
You then take issue with AI's argument because you say that MH is a softer target than Cyan and TFF, which if they're all town is certainly true but there's no reason you should know that MH is town.
[quote]
Is that supposed to be a fallacy?
Something can be not true when applied to one person, but be true when applied to another...
Sure. Except in this case the players are you and TFF. Or are you actually saying that you think TFF is so bad as to not be comparable to you?
Again, the idea that TFF, a very experienced and cool-headed player, collapsing out of fright from your naked vote makes no sense, and yet that is what you are suggesting. And then you try to turn it around and say that the idea of you having no recourse but to vote TFF as scum is ridiculous.
It's been a while since I quoted this post, but I recall disagreeing with this statement. Walk me through it like I'm five.
OK.
See, Mister Asian Invasion said that Mister Azrael was a bad man because he started voting different people and looking for the easiest one to get a lynch on.
Hey, stop picking your nose.
Good.
Now, Mister Azrael said back that if he was looking for the easiest person to lynch why didn't he just leave his vote on MH? We're in Az's scum state of mind and he's referring to MH as town!
I have no idea what Seppel is trying to play at with these types of posts but I'm not liking it.
Oh and now we're supposed to simply take your word that Jobie is scum?
...and Cyan and MH apparently did?
Any of you want to explain that one?
I like the atlseal wagon and I'm not sure why it died down the first time it came up but I think it's far more important to deal with Az today. It's also pretty interesting how other wagons seem to spring up just in time to deter a decision from being made re TFF/Az. Not sure what that means.
*snaps his fingers, dance-fights back into thread*
Alright then. Time to get to back to work. I think we've got plenty of material to work with now.
First things first, why did I decide TFF was a bad man?
About the time I was deciding whether Cyan or MH most needed to die, I read TFF's post 369. And as I was mulling over my next move, I realized I was getting mixed feelings about how good an idea it was, on an instinctual level.
So then I asked myself - ok, if you're going to start listening to your instincts - that Manders is just naturally ingratiating and kind of illogical, and that Cyan just got stuck on the term "leaning town", what else do these instacts have to say? And what they said, was that TFF's post 369 was somehow sinister. So I took a closer look. And then I realized that it was exactly the kind of post I would make as scum in this situation. He was refereeing the fight - and he was too spot-on, too easily. He sounded practically smug in the knowledge that he knew what was really going on and was going to be proven right in the end.
So I decided to take the shot. And then he exploded, and went into full-on tilt mode.
TFF's already covered the bit about being "too spot-on, too easily", but walk me through your thought process here.
You saw a scumtell on a player and instead of explaining why you're voting him (and thus encouraging other players to vote for him as well) you vote him with no explanation.
Why?
Because you think it's more important that the scum be afraid that you saw something that will catch them all instead of trying to build up a wagon on your currently caught scum.
And on top of this, you don't explain any of this at that point but just leave it as an unnexplained vote that doesn't look like it has any reason, hidden or otherwise.
Does not compute.
Quit. Doing. Meta. Analyze what's in front of you! If I wanted a soft target to attack, I'd stick with Manders! Why in a million years would I go haring after TFF out of the blue sky looking for a soft target, when I already had a six-vote wagon heading for a quick drop and a sudden stop, with unanimous support! Either you need to revise your theory to say that I'm doing some retardedly bad scum WIFOM move, or you need to retract it altogeher, b/c this superficial analysis comparison BS just sends my blood pressure through the roof and puts egg on your face. *deep breaths* Sorry. But being constantly misread (and miskilled) based on substanceless meta arguments is getting really, really, really old.
Important:
This paragraph shows that Az has inside knowledge that MH is town. This both confirms Az as scum and MH as town.
I wanted this separate as it's the most important piece and I don't want it lost in the rest.
Az was attacking both MH and Cyan, and claimed to have scum reads on both. I call them both town and Az begins voting me for the accuracy of my reads. He doesn't call me scum defending scumbuddy MH or Cyan, no. -His justification for the vote is that I correctly read them both as town.
Think about that. -Because there are, maybe a hundred mindset issues here.
So, Az, why are you so confident in my reads here? -I'm not even that confident in my reads on them. So, how do you know I'm right?
Exactly. This is further evidenced by my point above.
Then there's the key idea at the heart of your entire case: that I was scared and couldn't figure out how to respond because you asked me about whether I'd read some post by Cyan? What a fearsome line of questioning that was...
Couldn't possibly have found a way to wriggle out of that sure-fire lynch you had lined up there, with your "leaning slightly scum" read on me.
Next time you blow up in response to a naked vote and effectively commit suicide, you should try making up a believable cover story.
!!!
Is anyone reading Az?
He's attacking TFF for the key idea that Az was scared and had no recourse but to vote TFF as ridiculous WHEN AZ'S KEY POINT ABOUT TFF IS THAT HE WAS SO SCARED BY AZ'S NAKED VOTE THAT HE COMPLETELY OVERREACTED AND OMGUS'D AZ!
DYH: Please replace me.
I don't have the time to keep up.
Still want to analyze all the wagons that have developed this game (especially now that two more have started and stopped...) but I don't have the time yet. Something is off here, where many wagons start up but none actually go anywhere.
I never saw what made Jobie scum in the first place so I'm definitely fine leaving him alive. Not sure how his burnout should be handled though.
Still don't like how Seppel is making very confident statements while claiming to still not have read the entire thread.
How do these two posts make sense together?
How are my attacks on Az misreppy?
What does this mean, and why are you now voting Jobie?
This game is extremely confusing, e.g. most recently how the interest in TFF/Az completely fizzled, and how Az revealed that he's been only been skimming the people that he's attacking, which barely garnered an eyebrow raise. I want to do an in-depth read of the thread but it'll have to wait until I'm done with midterms.
That's kind of random.
Not really sure. He's certainly being more useful than in Doha though that's not really a hard feat considering he was just a waste of a player slot in that game. I haven't seen him do anything that can't be explained by "lol im vezok".
That's what I'm beginning to feel like but I'm not sure where exactly
But the thing is if MH is scum it makes sense for Az start looking for other targets if he decided that he doesn't want to bus her after all.
It only doesn't make sense for scum-Az to switch if MH is town, and that certainly wasn't a given. And yet Az response assumes that is a given.
As I said in the same post, that's not true. AI's talking about Az's vote switching, which begins after he's already been on MH for a while.
Because you're lynching someone solely based on somebody else's meta read.
Great.
A) That is simply bad.
B) That assumes Seppel is town. Why are you assuming Seppel is town?
I have no idea what this means.
No but neither am I in the mode to string someone up solely based on someone else's meta read, especially when there's not much risk to that someone else in the case of a mislynch.
Again, I have no idea what this means.
What a loss.
Rest in peace.
Again, how does this make sense from the perspective of someone who thought they just caught scum?
Or, answer this: Why did you decide that this particular time was a good idea to withhold info about your vote and what information did you hope to gain?
Sure. Except in this case the players are you and TFF. Or are you actually saying that you think TFF is so bad as to not be comparable to you?
Again, the idea that TFF, a very experienced and cool-headed player, collapsing out of fright from your naked vote makes no sense, and yet that is what you are suggesting. And then you try to turn it around and say that the idea of you having no recourse but to vote TFF as scum is ridiculous.
OK.
See, Mister Asian Invasion said that Mister Azrael was a bad man because he started voting different people and looking for the easiest one to get a lynch on.
Hey, stop picking your nose.
Good.
Now, Mister Azrael said back that if he was looking for the easiest person to lynch why didn't he just leave his vote on MH? We're in Az's scum state of mind and he's referring to MH as town!
I'm sorry if any of the words were too big.
I'm sure there's a secret reason for this vote too
I have no idea what Seppel is trying to play at with these types of posts but I'm not liking it.
Oh and now we're supposed to simply take your word that Jobie is scum?
...and Cyan and MH apparently did?
Any of you want to explain that one?
I like the atlseal wagon and I'm not sure why it died down the first time it came up but I think it's far more important to deal with Az today. It's also pretty interesting how other wagons seem to spring up just in time to deter a decision from being made re TFF/Az. Not sure what that means.
Heh.
Reads are most definitely subjective.
TFF's already covered the bit about being "too spot-on, too easily", but walk me through your thought process here.
You saw a scumtell on a player and instead of explaining why you're voting him (and thus encouraging other players to vote for him as well) you vote him with no explanation.
Why?
Because you think it's more important that the scum be afraid that you saw something that will catch them all instead of trying to build up a wagon on your currently caught scum.
And on top of this, you don't explain any of this at that point but just leave it as an unnexplained vote that doesn't look like it has any reason, hidden or otherwise.
Does not compute.
Important:
This paragraph shows that Az has inside knowledge that MH is town. This both confirms Az as scum and MH as town.
Exactly. This is further evidenced by my point above.
Not really. He's going from Az's POV there.
!!!
Is anyone reading Az?
He's attacking TFF for the key idea that Az was scared and had no recourse but to vote TFF as ridiculous WHEN AZ'S KEY POINT ABOUT TFF IS THAT HE WAS SO SCARED BY AZ'S NAKED VOTE THAT HE COMPLETELY OVERREACTED AND OMGUS'D AZ!
Az even mentions this in the same breath!