So, my meta has completely changed while I was absent from it for a while. It shifted from being strongly combo to being almost all aggro. I have a Natural Order/Progenitus deck that I need to revamp the creature list for, because it was almost all utility and protection. I had:
The Witness is nice because she can recover my lost Counterbalances, but she can barely handle half of the creatures being thrown around (hell, half the time she can't even block well). I'm also wanting to rid myself of the Wall of Roots. I'll probably sideboard 3 Witnesses and 3 Trinket Mages, for finding/recovering my Engineered Explosives, Tops, etc., etc..
Don't worry, suggest out the ass. I'm more than likely using inferior cards in their places already (um, Nulltread Gargantuan. Yeah, kinda desperate... He worked all right with Eternal Witness... One time). So, I'm open to anything, just about... Lol.
I would have expected someone who has been around the game as long as you to have a better understanding of the strength of blue. You never played with or against Sonic Boom (mono-blue control from timespiral-lorwyn standard) have you? And have you ever heard of faeries? They printed how many things to kill faeries and they are still a top tier deck.
There will be a Ux control deck post rotation, and it will be competitive and this dumb little trap won't phase it at all.
So, your proposed idea around this is to hate blue out entirely so people in Standard would no longer think of even splashing for one of the five colors the game bases itself on?
Fantastic idea. Let's have them keep churning out the Stags and Lightning Bolts while blue gets stuck with counters that are still vastly inferior to what was played back when Lightning Bolt first came around, and when the quality of most creatures was significantly worse than it is now. Mana Drain? Force of Will? Mana Leak? Remand? Cryptic? Bull-pocky! Give me my Cancels any day.
I agree pretty much wholeheartedly with Urza and anyone of similar opinion.
It'd require a relatively large amount of building around it to break it, and with no shroud or evasion it still can't do much on it's own.
I honestly think it'll be a high card (probably in the $10-15 range) because it'll be used for an extra one or two mana on turns 3-6, then attack or block for the controller. If better stuff comes out, the price will obviously raise. However, I feel that the lack of consistency at the price of going big (compared to Birds, which is the popular example) isn't going to be that much of a difference. This guy helps you none during mana screw (or drawing a sub-optimal amount of lands), which, let's admit this right now: This is a game of chance as much as it is skill. If you keep a 3 land hand and draw no more for the rest of the game then this guy helps you drop no 4cc spells after the first one, whereas Birds/Llanowar Elves/Etc. would let you keep trucking. It's still an amazing card, but it is by no mean Goyf levels. Goyf wins games, Bob wins games, this doesn't. Accelerators just don't do that on their own, they require a whole hand of goodness.
Then again, that's just my opinion. I may be a little out of date as far as Standard is concerned; I haven't played it since Reveillark Blink rotated last year (been heavy in Legacy, where, let's face it: This thing is not that impressive).
The guy is still a 1/1 for G. So, you're still coming out even in the mana cost - P/T ratio. So, I don't see how this guy is bad, especially when it comes to filling out a mana curve.
In Standard? This will be as important as Tarmogoyf was. 'Goyf died to removal, burn, etc., and so does this. Obviously the, "Oh he dies to removal" argument is asinine, especially when most removal in Standard will cost equal to or more than he does. 'Goyf died to every removal out there, and rarely saw past being a 3/4 in Standard. Without the opponent Doom Blading or Bolting it (same as Tarmogoyf), this will be a fairly efficient, even if a little slow, beater.
In Extended, the possibility for him to be big is there.
In Legacy? No, they've already got 'Goyf. I can only name a few decks that take past the fifth turn to win, and they either already run 'Goyf or they don't have green in them at all. There's one I can think of that doesn't even run creatures.
In Vintage? Hell no. BUG Fish already has 'Goyf, and he is significantly faster for this format (fetches to put lands in the yard, sacrificing artifacts for mana, instants and sorceries galore, even draw/discard spells to fill the 'yard with various other types of cards to make him grow to a 4/5 by turn one, etc.).
Have you even played in formats with fetchlands present and being popular? Without question, the most popular, and perhaps correct play to use with a fetchland in almost EVERY deck available... is to crack the fetchland at the end of your opponents turn. Or in response to something that targets your fetch land or other lands... or as a way to shuffle your deck for an effect such as brainstorm or ponder (which WILL be relevant in Standard now). They almost NEVER work on their own merit as something you play on the first turn only to crack on the first turn. You almost ALWAYS wait for a reason to crack them in response to something you or your opponent does.
The exception to this rule of course being heavy aggro decks that NEED their mana fast.
This would all become infinitely more relevant, if like the speculation is assuming at the moment... Stifle or a Stifle like effect gets reprinted sometime in the next few sets.
This is hilarious. The reason cracking the fetch at the end of the opponent's turn is the right play is because:
-The opponent could be using Wasteland and you actually want to keep the dual you just hunted for
-The opponent could have Trickbind/Stifle in their hand and you would then lose a land
There's a couple more Legacy-specific situations, but the above two are the most common. Unless Wasteland and Stifle are coming back, I seriously don't think having to fetch at BoES (beginning of end step looks so ridiculous, compared to EoT) will be a huge issue. Whoop-de-doo, feel free to put yourself behind the curve in case the opponent is playing red and has five mana available during your turn, but for the most part it should not matter.
Well, you never know. I've run Scepter Chant since it's been Extended legal and I've enjoyed it a lot. In Legacy it has a much more difficult time, though. I made a major overhaul to my Extended deck once Chants rotated; it was the only way for me to pull out a win.
I added 4x Standstill, 4x Mishra's Factory and 3x Faerie Conclave.
By the way, 2 Counterbalance isn't going to be enough for anything. If the opponent is running it, they'll be at 3 or 4 so they have a much higher chance of softlocking you before you do it to them. Counterbalance, since they trigger separately, should always be at an equal or higher number than the Tops, which do nothing in multiples on field.
Your deck, likewise, is too "All over the place". Um, Force of Will should never be less than 4x, even if the other is sideboarded for Cunning Wish (hint: REVEALING COUNTER SPELLS IS BAD). Also, consider which is better for your deck? Cunning Wish, Mystical Tutor or Enlightened Tutor? Running 1x, 2x, 2x is incredibly inconsistent. I simply ran card-drawing in mine since the card advantage was more important than "OMG LOCK NOW". 2x Swords? Those won't help much against a Lackey, and paying 2U to get to your Swords is a bad, bad idea. I can understand the Cunning Wish above all of them (since toolboxing seems to be a common theme), so I'd recommend it first and foremost. But, damnit, put all four of your Forces in the maindeck. They'll bait you around the revealed one every time (unless they're a sucky player, but that just means you were going to win anyway).
Also important: Ethersworn Canonist. Prevents storm. Lets you softlock with the Scepter and a Counterspell. This card, above all, is important.
Imperial Painter is a completely different beast from U/B Painter's Grindstone. I mentioned that in an earlier post of mine. I strongly feel that U/B utilizing Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, Ponder and Lim-Dul's Vault (as both fetch for the combo and topdeck manipulation for Counterbalance) is more effective than Imperial Recruiter. The control combo, once assembled, will win hands down (since, um, Counterbalance and all the 1cc stuff in the deck counters Pyroblasts and REBs, which Imperial Painter so relies on. This is not including Dazes, Forces or Counterspells), and with the quick mana U/B allots, dropping the combo early is relatively easy.
By all means, if you have the Recruiters, run Imperial Painter. It's certainly not worse (as it can utilize a toolbox effect through them, though it can't fetch it's own Grindstone, a problem U/B does not have). In fact, given the meta it might be marginally more effective, but only marginally.
I still strongly suggest running the Counterbalance combo and pushing it game 2, when the opponent is going to be fully focused on stopping your combo (meaning if you did not utilize it game 1, you have a clear, "Oops, I win" factor (or at least, "Oops, now I make the game incredibly frustrating for you."). Dark Confidant is also another thing that should not be overlooked, as the overall low casting cost of the deck will allow for great card advantage.
@Lord Enumy: That's imperial painter and really is a different deck. This deck goes all out to look for the combo which is different than that deck which runs bob, imperial recruiter (the card is hella expensive $150+ almost always) and other stuff. Sure it has the same idea it's just not the same make of the deck
It also runs EE. And if you ran that deck would that include the SB? I really don't see the point in having 4 tarmogoyf in the SB because you said you would run that deck. It also doesn't run ponder or fabricate like us
I agree with many of your card choices, but I don't think Fabricate is good at all. Lim Dul's and Trinket Mage are about all you'd need (that, and Trinket Mage can be a blocker and get Grindstone, Tormod's or Engineered Explosives at the cost of not grabbing Painter's Servant, which I feel is pretty solid. Sometimes you just need to chump a Goyf). Ponder and Brainstorm are perfectly solid with Counterbalance, which I feel is completely necessary considering all of the things that can hate this deck out (also, having 4 Braindstorm, 2-4 Ponder and 4 Lim Dul's will allow quick and easy manipulation of the topdeck for Counterbalance, all while providing card advantage and fetching combo pieces).
I run EE in the sideboard mainly because of my reliance upon field control, especially with Counterbalance and Painter's Servant being at 2. I always side it in game two and usually fetch with Trinket Mage. The speed of the combo and card advantage can usually win you game one through a Counterbalance, and tricking up with EE and various other supportive spells can win you game two. Go for the turn 3-4 kill game 1, go for the turn 5+ kill game 2. It works very well.
The synergy is amazing; I'd say this is the control variant of Imperial Painter, which seems more aggro-control or flat-out aggro combo.
(I'm really new here, so I don't know how to do the deck list tags or anything. I pressed the button but I don't know how to get it to work; it keeps saying that the cards can't be found).
So far, this list has treated me well. I lose a LOT of life with this, but I can always manage it out by out-controlling or out-speeding the opponent. My sideboard, as of right now, consists of 1 Tombstalker (to change up if someone dedicates a LOT of slots to hate out my combo), 2 Engineered Explosives, 3 Tormod's Crypts, 4 Echoing Truth, 4 Stifles (which should seriously be switched out since they do nothing against ANT, but no one plays it around here), and one other card I can't remember. I think it was another Counterbalance.
The extreme card advantage combined with the control and speed of the combo is hard for most opponents to get used to (not to mention, it's weird and not an archetype yet). Also, many don't expect you to Lim-Dul's Vault to keep rolling your Counterbalance and simultaneously find combo pieces, in addition to Ponder and Brainstorm.
I dunno; I'd actually like some help with this. I've played it for over a year and it fares pretty well (for here, which this isn't necessarily a competitive setting), but what kind of tweaks would I need to make for a tournament setting?
There is one big problem with competitive treefolk:
1.) Speed. The easiest way around treefolk being slow is to use another treefolk: Leaf-Crowned Elder. Turn 1 Harbinger, Turn 2, Banneret, Turn 3, Elder, turn 4 let Hell break loose.
Biggest problem with the speed issue? If the Leaf-Crowned Elder dies, the whole engine stops for the most part. Not to mentiont he fact that the Elder doesn't ensure that you take off anyway: What if you keep top-decking land?
To avoid the latter part of the speed issue (the consistency problem) requires a huge amount of set up time.
Yeah, sure, treefolk can be a 4th-5th turn kill even while spells are being countered/killed if you're lucky... But otherwise, you're stuck with a rather slow deck that may not work.
Good for FNM. Not for PTQ, in my experience (I main Fae, Reveillark//Blink and Treefolk for my Standard decks).
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Wall of Roots
1 Progenitus
2 or 3 sideboarded Trinket Mage.
The Witness is nice because she can recover my lost Counterbalances, but she can barely handle half of the creatures being thrown around (hell, half the time she can't even block well). I'm also wanting to rid myself of the Wall of Roots. I'll probably sideboard 3 Witnesses and 3 Trinket Mages, for finding/recovering my Engineered Explosives, Tops, etc., etc..
Don't worry, suggest out the ass. I'm more than likely using inferior cards in their places already (um, Nulltread Gargantuan. Yeah, kinda desperate... He worked all right with Eternal Witness... One time). So, I'm open to anything, just about... Lol.
So, your proposed idea around this is to hate blue out entirely so people in Standard would no longer think of even splashing for one of the five colors the game bases itself on?
Fantastic idea. Let's have them keep churning out the Stags and Lightning Bolts while blue gets stuck with counters that are still vastly inferior to what was played back when Lightning Bolt first came around, and when the quality of most creatures was significantly worse than it is now. Mana Drain? Force of Will? Mana Leak? Remand? Cryptic? Bull-pocky! Give me my Cancels any day.
It'd require a relatively large amount of building around it to break it, and with no shroud or evasion it still can't do much on it's own.
I honestly think it'll be a high card (probably in the $10-15 range) because it'll be used for an extra one or two mana on turns 3-6, then attack or block for the controller. If better stuff comes out, the price will obviously raise. However, I feel that the lack of consistency at the price of going big (compared to Birds, which is the popular example) isn't going to be that much of a difference. This guy helps you none during mana screw (or drawing a sub-optimal amount of lands), which, let's admit this right now: This is a game of chance as much as it is skill. If you keep a 3 land hand and draw no more for the rest of the game then this guy helps you drop no 4cc spells after the first one, whereas Birds/Llanowar Elves/Etc. would let you keep trucking. It's still an amazing card, but it is by no mean Goyf levels. Goyf wins games, Bob wins games, this doesn't. Accelerators just don't do that on their own, they require a whole hand of goodness.
Then again, that's just my opinion. I may be a little out of date as far as Standard is concerned; I haven't played it since Reveillark Blink rotated last year (been heavy in Legacy, where, let's face it: This thing is not that impressive).
In Standard? This will be as important as Tarmogoyf was. 'Goyf died to removal, burn, etc., and so does this. Obviously the, "Oh he dies to removal" argument is asinine, especially when most removal in Standard will cost equal to or more than he does. 'Goyf died to every removal out there, and rarely saw past being a 3/4 in Standard. Without the opponent Doom Blading or Bolting it (same as Tarmogoyf), this will be a fairly efficient, even if a little slow, beater.
In Extended, the possibility for him to be big is there.
In Legacy? No, they've already got 'Goyf. I can only name a few decks that take past the fifth turn to win, and they either already run 'Goyf or they don't have green in them at all. There's one I can think of that doesn't even run creatures.
In Vintage? Hell no. BUG Fish already has 'Goyf, and he is significantly faster for this format (fetches to put lands in the yard, sacrificing artifacts for mana, instants and sorceries galore, even draw/discard spells to fill the 'yard with various other types of cards to make him grow to a 4/5 by turn one, etc.).
This is hilarious. The reason cracking the fetch at the end of the opponent's turn is the right play is because:
-The opponent could be using Wasteland and you actually want to keep the dual you just hunted for
-The opponent could have Trickbind/Stifle in their hand and you would then lose a land
There's a couple more Legacy-specific situations, but the above two are the most common. Unless Wasteland and Stifle are coming back, I seriously don't think having to fetch at BoES (beginning of end step looks so ridiculous, compared to EoT) will be a huge issue. Whoop-de-doo, feel free to put yourself behind the curve in case the opponent is playing red and has five mana available during your turn, but for the most part it should not matter.
I added 4x Standstill, 4x Mishra's Factory and 3x Faerie Conclave.
By the way, 2 Counterbalance isn't going to be enough for anything. If the opponent is running it, they'll be at 3 or 4 so they have a much higher chance of softlocking you before you do it to them. Counterbalance, since they trigger separately, should always be at an equal or higher number than the Tops, which do nothing in multiples on field.
Your deck, likewise, is too "All over the place". Um, Force of Will should never be less than 4x, even if the other is sideboarded for Cunning Wish (hint: REVEALING COUNTER SPELLS IS BAD). Also, consider which is better for your deck? Cunning Wish, Mystical Tutor or Enlightened Tutor? Running 1x, 2x, 2x is incredibly inconsistent. I simply ran card-drawing in mine since the card advantage was more important than "OMG LOCK NOW". 2x Swords? Those won't help much against a Lackey, and paying 2U to get to your Swords is a bad, bad idea. I can understand the Cunning Wish above all of them (since toolboxing seems to be a common theme), so I'd recommend it first and foremost. But, damnit, put all four of your Forces in the maindeck. They'll bait you around the revealed one every time (unless they're a sucky player, but that just means you were going to win anyway).
Also important: Ethersworn Canonist. Prevents storm. Lets you softlock with the Scepter and a Counterspell. This card, above all, is important.
Consider Meddling Mages.
By all means, if you have the Recruiters, run Imperial Painter. It's certainly not worse (as it can utilize a toolbox effect through them, though it can't fetch it's own Grindstone, a problem U/B does not have). In fact, given the meta it might be marginally more effective, but only marginally.
I still strongly suggest running the Counterbalance combo and pushing it game 2, when the opponent is going to be fully focused on stopping your combo (meaning if you did not utilize it game 1, you have a clear, "Oops, I win" factor (or at least, "Oops, now I make the game incredibly frustrating for you."). Dark Confidant is also another thing that should not be overlooked, as the overall low casting cost of the deck will allow for great card advantage.
Does no one play this anymore or something?
Maybe some matchups should be listed...
I agree with many of your card choices, but I don't think Fabricate is good at all. Lim Dul's and Trinket Mage are about all you'd need (that, and Trinket Mage can be a blocker and get Grindstone, Tormod's or Engineered Explosives at the cost of not grabbing Painter's Servant, which I feel is pretty solid. Sometimes you just need to chump a Goyf). Ponder and Brainstorm are perfectly solid with Counterbalance, which I feel is completely necessary considering all of the things that can hate this deck out (also, having 4 Braindstorm, 2-4 Ponder and 4 Lim Dul's will allow quick and easy manipulation of the topdeck for Counterbalance, all while providing card advantage and fetching combo pieces).
I run EE in the sideboard mainly because of my reliance upon field control, especially with Counterbalance and Painter's Servant being at 2. I always side it in game two and usually fetch with Trinket Mage. The speed of the combo and card advantage can usually win you game one through a Counterbalance, and tricking up with EE and various other supportive spells can win you game two. Go for the turn 3-4 kill game 1, go for the turn 5+ kill game 2. It works very well.
The synergy is amazing; I'd say this is the control variant of Imperial Painter, which seems more aggro-control or flat-out aggro combo.
4 Painter's Servant
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Dark Confidant
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
2 Trinket Mage
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
(I'm really new here, so I don't know how to do the deck list tags or anything. I pressed the button but I don't know how to get it to work; it keeps saying that the cards can't be found).
So far, this list has treated me well. I lose a LOT of life with this, but I can always manage it out by out-controlling or out-speeding the opponent. My sideboard, as of right now, consists of 1 Tombstalker (to change up if someone dedicates a LOT of slots to hate out my combo), 2 Engineered Explosives, 3 Tormod's Crypts, 4 Echoing Truth, 4 Stifles (which should seriously be switched out since they do nothing against ANT, but no one plays it around here), and one other card I can't remember. I think it was another Counterbalance.
The extreme card advantage combined with the control and speed of the combo is hard for most opponents to get used to (not to mention, it's weird and not an archetype yet). Also, many don't expect you to Lim-Dul's Vault to keep rolling your Counterbalance and simultaneously find combo pieces, in addition to Ponder and Brainstorm.
I dunno; I'd actually like some help with this. I've played it for over a year and it fares pretty well (for here, which this isn't necessarily a competitive setting), but what kind of tweaks would I need to make for a tournament setting?
1.) Speed. The easiest way around treefolk being slow is to use another treefolk: Leaf-Crowned Elder. Turn 1 Harbinger, Turn 2, Banneret, Turn 3, Elder, turn 4 let Hell break loose.
Biggest problem with the speed issue? If the Leaf-Crowned Elder dies, the whole engine stops for the most part. Not to mentiont he fact that the Elder doesn't ensure that you take off anyway: What if you keep top-decking land?
To avoid the latter part of the speed issue (the consistency problem) requires a huge amount of set up time.
Yeah, sure, treefolk can be a 4th-5th turn kill even while spells are being countered/killed if you're lucky... But otherwise, you're stuck with a rather slow deck that may not work.
Good for FNM. Not for PTQ, in my experience (I main Fae, Reveillark//Blink and Treefolk for my Standard decks).