I would say lack of Onslaught Fetchlands also. Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta. Bolt is not really needed since GB Rock is a thing, basically Jund without red. Also, if you are not playing red in a UW shell, then you are better of with pure UW control for mana stability and tectonic edges. Basically UW and GB shells are viable with UW more dependent on a red splash and GB not very much. Both decks splash red because of Lightning Bolt and Blood Moon. Lightning Bolt is a no brainer splash. If you are sacrificing mana stability for a third color and not yet playing red, then the third color better be red to compensate for Blood Moon scenarios from your opponent. With a red splash, you can play around Blood Moon. With Onslaught Fetchlands, Esper can play around Blood Moon better.
I don't believe that Goyf is only balanced by it's price and would be played in a lot more decks if they are cheaper. If it were true, then all the pros at SCG and Channel Fireball would have done that already.
Aside from time issues, the argument for banning Jitte can also be applied to Top. Jitte banned because WotC don't want aggro mirrors revolve around who connects with a Jitte first. Top would result in Midrange / Control mirrors revolving around who spins their Top first.
I would LOVE that for my death and taxes deck haha. It would make running swords so much safer! Not to mention Batterskull is one of the worst threats for my deck to deal with. But yea, extreme bias haha.
I still have hopes for her being unbanned. That's why I only keep 1 of all the swords and batterskull. I don't believe these babies are playable enough without their mama.
Valakut and Bitterblossom were also considered too strong by most and decried as potential destroyers of the format.
That is a completely disingenuous comparison and if you know anything about the format it's clear. Stoneforge can't be in modern with Batterskull until the power level of modern had raised far more.
^This. If we are talking about unbanning SFM now, I guess I would also say no. In a few years time they probably can unban that card if it's not going to break the meta.
How is Wotc not being consistent? They banned eggs for the exact same reason with in the format.
Look at the ban list, look at how many consistency cards there are on the list. Its pretty apparent Wotc is shying away from consistency in the format.
That's because they mentioned that consistent decks lend themselves to skilled players. How will magic get new blood if all the pros and long time players always win against the new players?
I do wonder why a card like top finds itself banned in Modern, but not Legacy where the issue it creates are compounded. That to me says that there is more than a time issue going on. The card is seen as too powerful for Modern (and with a lack of card manipulation in the format, not hard to understand why) overall and is banned for more than just the official reaonsiong.
To be fair, it was banned in Extended for the same reason.
Yes. They ban things for time reasons in all formats that they support. They don't really support any other format aside from Standard and Modern right now. Also in Legacy or Vintage there are also games that are decided in 3 turns so it compensates for some of the times lost to control mirrors.
If fetches are worse than shocks and checklands, why are they so much more expensive? So much derp in this thread. The power of fetchlands is in deck-thinning and no CIPT; you should understand that.
Deck thinning isn't a real argument. If you disagree with this read what every pro has stated on the subject. The untapped argument also makes little sense. Shocks also come into play untapped for the cost of one extra life, but always provide two colors of mana. Next, other than turns 1-3 or so there is a possibility that Checks might come into play tapped, but it doesn't happen often. And again, they always provide 2 colors of mana.
Fetches cost so much money because they are the absolute best form of mana fixing when combined with Shocks and Duals. One fetchland can get you any of the 5 colors. They are more expensive than Shocks and Duals because they are more important to Legacy and Modern decks than Shocks and Duals.
I think you are undervaluing Pros opinions of fetches...
Even mono-colored decks in modern and legacy run fetches. If fetches where only good because of shocks/old duals, they would not see play in mono-colored decks.
Show me a single mono-colored deck from Modern or Legacy that ran fetches that did not include Top, Brainstorm, Ponder, or Sylvan Library.
Wow, that's very good. Clap your hands. Please read the post that you have quoted and tell me that you have posted a Legacy deck that's mono-colored and does not use Top, Brainstorm, Ponder, or Sylvan Library.
Hell no. Why don't you just play Legacy? In fact, I know that you do play it. So stay there. Don't ruin a format that is more loved than Legacy has ever been. There is a Turn 4 rule that prevents most of these cards from being unbanned. There is no way to contain fast combo in Modern. A Force of Will reprint would just make Modern blue-dominated, like Legacy. We like Modern much more than we like Legacy and nothing that you change in Modern seems like it would make you prefer Modern to Legacy, so why don't you just stay there? Also, saying that Top can be unbanned because it is not as time-consuming as Second Sunrise and then advocating a Second Sunrise unban in the same post is highly hypocritical. Where is the downvote button when you need one?
Read this instead of making me read discussions from random people from the internet.
Oh sorry, I thought that the entire reason that one comes onto MTG Salvation is to have discussions with random people on the Internet. Perhaps I was misinformed./sarcasm
This gave birth to Midrange and Tempo. Because they can easily switch roles in different match-ups. Pure dedicated slow control with traditionally slow win con and pure dedicated fast aggro with no inevitability are both meta dependent decks.
Not knowing when to control the game or rush into Karn is what separates a good RG Tron player and a scrub trying to get lucky with a turn 3 Karn.
What I get from this is that RG Tron can sort of be Control sometimes. That applies to almost every deck in the format. If it isn't trying to be Control for the majority of the time, THEN IT CANNOT BE A CONTROL DECK! What about that is so hard for you to understand? Is RG Tron trying to drag the game into the late-game more or less than it is trying to end it with turn 3 Karn or Wurmcoil Engine? From my experience it is the latter rather than the former.
The fact that RG Tron is not ALL-IN Ramp makes it not a Ramp Deck but a Ramp-Control deck. The fact that Scapeshift is not ALL-IN Combo makes it not a Combo deck but a Control-Combo deck. There's a reason why Tempo-Twin is Tier 1 and ALL-IN Twin is not. Tempo Twin is a Tempo-Combo deck. Pod is Midrange-Combo deck. Affinity is Aggro-Combo deck. If you're only plan is to Combo or to Control the game or to Aggro your opponent with no back-up plan, then you'll be having a very hard time. There's a reason hybrid decks can win through hate.
RG Tron is not a control deck. It plays 8 board wipes and then literally no other control cards (Karn doesn't count). Also, Affinity isn't combo in any form of the word.
Please define control the game? Is this something that basically prevent your opponent from winning until time runs out or is this something that prevent your opponent from winning until you stick a threat and ride it to victory?
RG TRON PLAN
Control the game using Relic and Sweeper until you stick a threat and ride it to victory (Karn, Wurmcoil, Emrakul)
Scapeshift PLAN
Control the game using counters, snapcasters, removal until you resolve a game winning card (Scapeshift)
UWR Control
Control the game using counters, snapcasters, removal until you resolve a game winning threat and ride it to victory (Manlands, Planeswalkers, Bolt Snap Bolt)
Okay, I've given you the similarities and why I consider them control. Which of these do you consider a control deck and what is the difference between those you consider control decks and not?
Relic of Progenitus is not a control card. It is a sideboard card that cantrips. It does very little against the majority of decks and is only in there because otherwise RG Tron would automatically lose to decks like Living End. Adding a sideboard card to your maindeck does not make you control the game. The very definition of control is that it extends into the late game. Playing your game-ending threat on turn 3 obviously can't be Control then.
Do you play RG Tron? How many times have you landed a turn 3 Karn? Just because you can end the game early with a god draw does not mean you are not control. Majority of the times, RG Tron need to sweep the board to stay alive. Sweepers are only played in Control decks. Can we continue with the on topic discussion now?
I don't play RG Tron, but you obviously don't either if you think adding Relic of Progenitus to its maindeck makes it a control deck. When I said game-ending threat, I included Wurmcoil Engine. RG Tron runs just as many game-ending threats that it is trying to drop turn 3 as it does sweepers.
Don't ruin a format that is more loved than Legacy has ever been.
Speak for yourself, but where I am Modern fills a single Sign on sheet, Legacy, 3. More loved is also something I find hard to believe. How many Modern players have sunk 10 years into making their pet deck work perfectly? Does modern have more players? I think it might but thats not the same thing as love for a format. I do not love modern, I enjoy playing it but I do not love it. I love very much the time I have spent building and playing in the legacy format.
Modern is according to WotC the second-most popular format. Listening to Legacy players like Yonekura saying that Modern would be great if they unbanned almost everything and made it Legacy 2.0 is infuriating. I don't want to play in Legacy. That format already exists. Why should the format that I love be turned into a worse version of another format?
On topic; would sword of the meek be that terribly stifling to Aggro? I know they are trying to nurture a healthy meta by increasing Aggro with kitty, so would unbanning sword be too counter productive?
Yup, it will be. I'm okay with unbanning some control cards but not those that
a.) Oppressive to aggro decks
b.) Will also help combo decks or is a combo piece
Sword of the Meek is a combo piece. If you want decks that control the game then combo win Scapeshift is for you.
Sword of the Meek may be a combo piece, but not in the same sense that other combos are. Combo decks generally win the game or generate an enormous advantage in a single turn. Sword of the Meek doesn't do that.
So is this the kind of control you guys are looking for? Durdle to stay alive then drop a durdle win con to durdle with your opponents? Then game 2, durdle to the max so that you have game 1 win and game 2 draw until time runs out?
In fact, yes. I want more decks that are focused on the late-game instead of Modern being so focused on the mid-game. Besides, all control has the potential to do that.
If there is a consistent Tier 1 control deck, majority of the pros will just play it because it rewards skill and they have a lot of that. Then people will cry here saying that deck is oppressive and something gets banned. Wizards wanted variance not consistency.
On topic; would sword of the meek be that terribly stifling to Aggro? I know they are trying to nurture a healthy meta by increasing Aggro with kitty, so would unbanning sword be too counter productive?
Yup, it will be. I'm okay with unbanning some control cards but not those that
a.) Oppressive to aggro decks
b.) Will also help combo decks or is a combo piece
Sword of the Meek is a combo piece. If you want decks that control the game then combo win Scapeshift is for you.
Sword of the Meek may be a combo piece, but not in the same sense that other combos are. Combo decks generally win the game or generate an enormous advantage in a single turn. Sword of the Meek doesn't do that.
So is this the kind of control you guys are looking for? Durdle to stay alive then drop a durdle win con to durdle with your opponents? Then game 2, durdle to the max so that you have game 1 win and game 2 draw until time runs out?
Hey, guess what besides your condescending snark some people DO like to play defensively and like complex decision-trees. Every game I've ever played I've preferred to play defensively whether it be Starcraft, or Axis and Allies. I like being in control of what permanents my opponent can have and when. Interacting with the stack, and their deck instead of only focusing on my deck primarily. I like to say 'No', and I like to sling spells instead of summon creatures. Above all, I like drawing cards, reducing variance, and playing longer games where incremental advantage is key. So, yes, I'd like to see Control (of which you know nothing about claiming RG tron is Control...lol...and then referencing Flores article about match dependent roles, not DECK playstyles and strategy - it's like saying Zoo is a Control deck because they play the 'control' role against Affinity) be a viable Tier 1 deck.
If people think or feel that AV would be too advantageous to Twin, then unban Jace tMS. Jace would ONLY see play in Control decks and would give us a boost. In Modern he is far less good than he is in either Legacy or ever was in Standard. Don't give me some bull***** money remark as to why he can't come off the list either.
Jace TMS. Hmmmn. Probably no. Although I'm with you that Jace is less broken in Modern because cards that own him sees play in Modern.
On topic; would sword of the meek be that terribly stifling to Aggro? I know they are trying to nurture a healthy meta by increasing Aggro with kitty, so would unbanning sword be too counter productive?
Yup, it will be. I'm okay with unbanning some control cards but not those that
a.) Oppressive to aggro decks
b.) Will also help combo decks or is a combo piece
Sword of the Meek is a combo piece. If you want decks that control the game then combo win Scapeshift is for you.
Sword of the Meek may be a combo piece, but not in the same sense that other combos are. Combo decks generally win the game or generate an enormous advantage in a single turn. Sword of the Meek doesn't do that.
So is this the kind of control you guys are looking for? Durdle to stay alive then drop a durdle win con to durdle with your opponents? Then game 2, durdle to the max so that you have game 1 win and game 2 draw until time runs out?
R,
I was also about to ask about Pack Rat instead of Courser. They both lessen dead draws late game and Pack Rat is more aggressive than Courser.
Fetchlands Reprints
I still have hopes for her being unbanned. That's why I only keep 1 of all the swords and batterskull. I don't believe these babies are playable enough without their mama.
^This. If we are talking about unbanning SFM now, I guess I would also say no. In a few years time they probably can unban that card if it's not going to break the meta.
That's because they mentioned that consistent decks lend themselves to skilled players. How will magic get new blood if all the pros and long time players always win against the new players?
Yes. They ban things for time reasons in all formats that they support. They don't really support any other format aside from Standard and Modern right now. Also in Legacy or Vintage there are also games that are decided in 3 turns so it compensates for some of the times lost to control mirrors.
Wow, that's very good. Clap your hands. Please read the post that you have quoted and tell me that you have posted a Legacy deck that's mono-colored and does not use Top, Brainstorm, Ponder, or Sylvan Library.
PV is testing Prophetic Flamespeaker in Jund.
If there is a consistent Tier 1 control deck, majority of the pros will just play it because it rewards skill and they have a lot of that. Then people will cry here saying that deck is oppressive and something gets banned. Wizards wanted variance not consistency.
Jace TMS. Hmmmn. Probably no. Although I'm with you that Jace is less broken in Modern because cards that own him sees play in Modern.
So is this the kind of control you guys are looking for? Durdle to stay alive then drop a durdle win con to durdle with your opponents? Then game 2, durdle to the max so that you have game 1 win and game 2 draw until time runs out?