So I'm building a semi-competetive but not broken Azusa list (non-budget,) and was thinking of what card draw is best in mono-green (I usually playblue/black.)
Here's what I got so far:
Mind's Eye
Harmonize
Momentous Fall
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Regal Force (i'm running some token junk like both Garruks, Avenger of Zendikar, Wolfbriar Elemantal, Howl of the Night Pack
Yavimaya Elder
Cards that seem bad, but I may be wrong:
Masked Admirers (super expensive, and a do nothing for the board,) Dreamstone Hedron (crazy expensive, 9 mana to draw)
Fierce Empath
Eye of Ugin
Am I missing some key draw spells?
Also, im trying to only play essential artifacts /enchantments (Sol Ring, Greaves, Crucible) to play multiple more than one artifact killers. (Trying to cut off artifact mana.)
So Far I have Creeping Corrosion, Null rod, Relic Crush. (I'm assuming Mind's Eye is finewith null rod since it's triggered?)
I see what you're trying to do here, but this deck needs a lot of tuning before it's ready to take a strong meta. Why new Jace 1.0? Why no Esper Charm? These are two cards, that regardless of your intended synergy, are too good not to play.
Land
4x[card]Celestial Colonnade[card]
9x[card]Island[card]
7x[card]Plains[card]
4x[card]Glacial Fortress[card]
Creatures
3x[card]Conundrum Sphinx[card]-It's a 4/4 flyer for 4 and can often be card advantage with crystal ball.
3x[card]Sun Titan[card]-Key part of the deck can bounce a lot of permanents with cip affects.
3x[card]Augury Owl[card]-Good 2-drop and decent target for the titan.
3x[card]Aether Adept[card]-Good target for the titan and can slow tempo for your opponents.
Spells
3x[card]Crystal Ball[card]-Helps avoid late land draws and good synnergy wit the sphinx.
4x[card]Day of Judgement[card]-Kind of self-explanatory.
3x[card]Jace Beleren[card]-Good target for the titan and can create lots of card advantage.
2x[card]Journey to Nowhere[card]-Good removal and can be targeted by the titan.
4x[card]Oblivion Ring[card]-Great removal and can be targeted by the titan.
4x[card]Negate[card]-Good counterspell.
4x[card]Redirect[card]-Useful against removal and other target effects.
Sideboard
2x[card]Journey to Nowhere[card]-When I need more removal.
4x[card]Kor Firewalker[card]-Hoser for RDW.
4x[card]Leyline of Sanctity[card]-Hoser for blightning etc. might not need this because I have redirect, but I think it's useful.
4x[card]Kor Sanctifiers[card]-Can be targeted by the titan and kills annoying cards.
1x[card]Ice Cage[card]-More removal
So the basic idea is to use your scry cards to get up to six lands and create huge card advantage with the sphinx and jac and then use Sun Titan to recur your cip effects and kill your opponents.
Questions
1. Aether adept is great for this deck and has been pretty good for me, but if I decide to wrath on turn 4 I'm basically saving one of their creatures. How do you guys think I should get around this?
2. I've had trouble leaving mana open for negate and redirect in testing so I'm thinking about using [card]Leyline of Anticipation[card] to flash things in so I can leave mana open. What do you guys think?
3. Pacifism-like effects may be better here because when I wrath they fall off and I can recur them with the titan. What's your opinion?
4. On turn 4 assuming I don't miss a land do you think I should play my sphinx or wait until I wrath?
5. Do you think I should run any more counters?
6. Are there any other cip effects I should use?
I feel like this deck can be very good once it gets perfected so I would like some help fine-tuning the deck. Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you.
Augury owl over wall of omens? Why? Also, why are you not running fetches, it's a last-resort sun Titan target.
That's about it afaik. I know the M10 white Soldier deck had Honor of the Pure, which was upwards of $10 when Kithkin were good, but that's not nearly as big as Jitte.
"Turnabout," from Shadowmoor had Wilt-Leaf Liege, which was a hot one in it's run in standard. Portal 3 Kingdoms ones are hot, obviously. I don't know of any others.
as bad as it seems, any thoughts on Ice Cage, the only thing i can see that would regularly get things out of it and keep it detrimental is equipment from naya lists or elspeth. it's about all there is on removal though, and despite being a sorcery, it doesn't require 2 creatures to be in the field, is rarely inherent card disadvantage, and doesn't have any play limitations.
also, Permafrost Trap might be worthy of consideration, not sure if anyone had mentioned it before but virtually all decks that would be "bad" MUs are running green men.
Narcolepsy Is in all likelihood better than Ice cage, as it doesn't die to equipment. I can't imagine there are a slew of creatures (Siege-Gang commander, and maybe Knight of the Relinquary for Sejiri Steppe non-withstanding,) with activated abilities are going to kill you. I would probably consider Whiplash trap over Permafrost trap, because it's usually better against Bloodbraid Elf decks, for the most part, while still being a live card against stuff like Koros and white weenie. That's my perspective though. YMMV.
Emeria, the Sky Ruin + Eldrazi = Epic Nonbo. Also, if you want to play knight of the white orchid, why not play borderposts? The everflowing chalices seem forced here, as you are playing 30 mana sources, and no card draw. I think you need to look further at interactions. I am not trying to be harsh, just sincere.
I am looking for some cards that put cards into your graveyard like Buried Alive and Entomb. I am still looking for some more. Thanks in advance
Not all of these are directly into grave without some extra effort, but I'll throw them out here anyway. I'm probably missing a few. Also, don't forget cards like Careful Study that sort of accomplish the same thing. There are all kinds of draw spells that lead to discarding. Anyway, here's a few, although I'm sure I'm missing some more.
Although hazy, and I am by no means a certified judge, this seems like a misrepresentation of game state, provided the creature his opponent sacrificed was not his only one, and more beneficial than the other creature(s).
I find that as I delve further into the various formats of magic, new levels of difficulty in actually playing decks come to life. I was basically curious what some of your takes on the "hardest decks to play" in the format of magic are.
Some of my takes
Solidarity (Legacy) - Deciding when to combo off, and how to go about it is brain-wracking. It's truly difficult figuring out if the third land in your hand is enough, or if you need an extra, the probability of you drawing the right card, etc.
Ad-Nauseam Tendrils (Legacy) - It's very difficult setting up your hand properly with tutors, while not exposing yourself to a counterspell or Orim's chant that is going to blow you out.
TPS (Vintage) - None of your cards really do anything objectively, and you're always trying to dig up the win somehow.
5CC (Pre-Zendikar Standard) - Generally speaking, you were always on the ropes, and always struggling for mana. Occasionally you would have the nut hands of lands, removal, and a cruel ultimatum, but frequently enough, you were struggling to draw into what you needed while still holding off upkeep mistbind cliques.
Jund (Standard) - Remembering to play lands can be really difficult...
Please, EXPLAIN YOURSELF. Just posting decks names with no explanation will be treated as spam from here on. -extremeicon
Ok, I'm trying not to be diminutive or otherwise insulting, but you said last October your team was championing this deck as a tier one contender. Nationals took place in June, AFTER M10, EIGHT MONTHS LATER! The deck had access to volcanic fallout and Great Sable Stag at this point. It didn't in October. The deck lost to the best deck in the format at that points (Faeries,) the deck that beat the best deck in the format at that time (RDW/Blightning aggro,) and some random other decks (Esper Lark, the Planeswalkers lists that were running around.) It wasn't tier one until after Volcanic Fallout. Last October, your team was wrong. Look at WORLDS lists (the relevant tournament closest to October.)
Kowal Zoo beat 5cc?! Well, that's new. I distinctly remember playing against it twice on our last FNM and going 2-0, 2-0. The deck had no reach whatsoever. You played a Hallowed Burial and you won. Simple as. The only reason it wasn't the easiet MU was because Kithkin existed. (I played it 6 times duting Nats week and went 12-0 in games)
Van Lunen, the pilot of the deck, claims it's about even with 5CC. With minor tweaks, it is favored against 5CC. FNM results really don't mean very much. I've blayed the deck a considerable amount myself and have had much success with 5CC. Drawing on your own anecdotal evidence doesn't really mean much.
And Cruel Ultimatum isn't good in the mirror? It makes your opponent discard their hand, sacrifice their Baneslayer Angel/Great Sable Stag (back then) AND it hits them for a quarter of their life.
And who let's this resolve exactly? Tapping out for a cruel ultimatum, really? You're supposed to board the card out in the mirror. It doesn't win you the game in any capacity, and let's your opponent have free reign to crush you with an actually relevant mirror card (see: identity crisis.) I'm NOT trying to be a jerk here, but I really don't know how you can claim cruel ultimatum is anything but lackluster at best in the mirror.
From what I've seen, Lotus Cobra decks are faster but lose gas faster. Which comes down to - if you get rid of Cobra turn 1 (and with 7 1-mana spot removal spells, it shouldn't be a problem), then their deck just crumbles, since they have to wait another turn to BBE. It's a good card, but it definately isn't as broken as everyone makes it out to be. (it's worse than I expected, imo, and I put it as mildly good when it came out)
It's a ramp card, obviously it makes decks faster but lose gas. The thing is that it makes decks MUCH faster. And you're argument about all your spot removal spells to get rid of it turn one makes no sense. First, it's a two drop, and there's no free acceleration to get it out turn 1. SO, you have seven spells to kill it turn two, but your list plays 4 Path to exile, which means you are STILL ramping them up a turn. So you have 3 Lightning bolts, not seven. And this assumes they are not protecting the card with targeted discard or their own counterspells.
I'm not sure what you've tested with this, but you can be certain, Lotus Cobra is a very legit card, and it's speed will knock slow control lists well of balance.
You know, last october I remember alot of people saying that 5cc would not be a tier 1 deck, and Shinjutsei and basically all of Team Revolution that posted on these boards said It would be a dominating deck, and look who was right. I'm pretty sure shin even won a couple packs of double-stuffed Oreo's from people...huh.
It wasn't really a tier one deck last October, it was tier 1.5 because faeries/RDW still annihilated it.
your right, maybe slower wasn't the word I was looking for, although I dont think its as fast, but it in hindsight its still not slow. Resiliant is the word I'm looking for. No aggro deck has the resiliancy to beat 5cc right now. The deck plays 7 instant speed removal spells and 4 wraths, and even pyroclasm in the sb. The removal spells are to keep things like Geopede and goblin guide in check, and judgement sweeps the rest.
It lost to Kowal Zoo/RDW before, what makes you think a fairly worse version is going to beat those decks now? What can this deck do against more streamlined control decks? Cruel ultimatum is not a particularly good card in a control mirror.
Also, the only thing on your list that speeds up the format is goblin guide. People could still live in christmas land with turn 3 ultimatums before so Lotus cobra doesn't really do anything, but push more critters into our turn 4 wrath and Vampire Lacerator? Please, 2/x's for 1 have been in this format sense Lorwyn, the only difference is that now there in 2 colors instead of just one.
They are now in colors that actively give slow control decks hard times. Kithkin was not a hard matchup, because their game revolved around creatures, and didn't have the reach of burn or hasty dudes. I'm sure your list beats the bad aggro decks that will be running around (soldiers, vampires, etc.) But the decks that are already fast, are faster. Lotus Cobra, while not a bomb, does in fact speed up the format. 5CC struggled with planeswalkers before, and this list, without access to some of the good cards against it (Maelstrom Pulse, Volcanic Fallout, etc.) will struggle more than ever against them. I have no what the deck plans to do against a resolved Elspeth, knight errant, let alone a lotus cobra fueled turn 3 liliana vess or something along those lines.
Not trying to insult you, but you seem to compare this version of five color to last seasons format.
The deck does have reliable mana. Out of some number of tries (50+), you can cast Cruel T8 the latest 95% of the time. If you don't believe me, go to MWS, or sleeve the deck up and try it. The deck might even be faster than last season's. You have fetches which guarantee the colours you need and you only need 11 ETBT lands.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to "not insult me" when I was making a direct quote. Not to insult you, but you might want to fully read up on who and what you are defending before doing so.
From what I gathered from you and your teammate is that your list beats a lot of bad decks (soldiers, vampires, etc.)
At the end of the day, you will play what you deem is best, and i'll play what I deem best. I'm just hoping I play against a lot of your team (that would be a playful jab.)
First, I apologize for insinuating rupture spire was still in your list. When I had looked at it last, it was still there. Now, let me iron it out for you, since apparently it's not registering, and "makes no sense."
A UWB last can realistically get away with playing 1-2 lands tapped. Your list, I would estimate during the course of a game, will play about 5-7 lands tapped. Of the "most powerful spells in standard" you listed, exactly 2 of them have red in them (Lightning bolt, and cruel ultimatum.) We'll assume that the "etc." accounts for the others, but it's a stretch to call blightning and pyroclasm some of the strongest spells in standard. Of the 75 cards you have in the list you posted, 12 of them are red. Two of them could easily be replaced with infest (pyroclasm). Three of them aren't particularly good cards in standard right now, as there are answers in every deck (Ajani Vengeant,) four of them are assumably for the mirror (blightning? really? tapping out for this?,) three of them could be replaced by a MULTITUDE of different spot removal spells (lightning bolt,) and four of them are your clunky win conditions (cruel ultimatum) that could just as well be more baneslayer angels.
You have 12 sources of black mana (including two fetch lands,) and you want me to believe that you will not have problems casting a cruel ultimatum? Obviously you are going to tell me yes, and that a landbase full of basics and bad cipt lands (jungle shrine? Doesn't seem broken) can cast whatever spells you like. Fair enough. So let me break down an old mana base, and your current mana base.
Lorwyn mana base (Taken from Charles Gindy's nationals list:)
Lands: 26
Blue Sources: 25 (not counting exotic orchard.)
Black Sources: 18 (not counting exotic orchard.)
Red Sources: 17 (not counting exotic orchard.)
Green Sources: 15 (not counting exotic orchard.)
White Sources: 17 (not counting exotic orchard.)
Your List:
Lands: 26
Blue Sources: 16
White Sources: 10
Red Sources: 11
Black Sources: 12
Without even mentioning the superiority of the old lists' lands at fixing mana faster (filters, reflecting pool, etc.) Given you have a lot of double white CC cards in your list, and Need VERY specific color combinations early, your assesment that this list is any way "faster/"better than the old landbase is just flat out off.
You can argue whatever you want, but please don't argue that your landbase is anything but inferior to the 5cc landbase of 6 days ago.
Here's what I got so far:
Mind's Eye
Harmonize
Momentous Fall
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Regal Force (i'm running some token junk like both Garruks, Avenger of Zendikar, Wolfbriar Elemantal, Howl of the Night Pack
Yavimaya Elder
Cards that seem bad, but I may be wrong:
Masked Admirers (super expensive, and a do nothing for the board,) Dreamstone Hedron (crazy expensive, 9 mana to draw)
Fierce Empath
Eye of Ugin
Am I missing some key draw spells?
Also, im trying to only play essential artifacts /enchantments (Sol Ring, Greaves, Crucible) to play multiple more than one artifact killers. (Trying to cut off artifact mana.)
So Far I have Creeping Corrosion, Null rod, Relic Crush. (I'm assuming Mind's Eye is finewith null rod since it's triggered?)
Augury owl over wall of omens? Why? Also, why are you not running fetches, it's a last-resort sun Titan target.
"Turnabout," from Shadowmoor had Wilt-Leaf Liege, which was a hot one in it's run in standard. Portal 3 Kingdoms ones are hot, obviously. I don't know of any others.
Narcolepsy Is in all likelihood better than Ice cage, as it doesn't die to equipment. I can't imagine there are a slew of creatures (Siege-Gang commander, and maybe Knight of the Relinquary for Sejiri Steppe non-withstanding,) with activated abilities are going to kill you. I would probably consider Whiplash trap over Permafrost trap, because it's usually better against Bloodbraid Elf decks, for the most part, while still being a live card against stuff like Koros and white weenie. That's my perspective though. YMMV.
Emeria, the Sky Ruin + Eldrazi = Epic Nonbo. Also, if you want to play knight of the white orchid, why not play borderposts? The everflowing chalices seem forced here, as you are playing 30 mana sources, and no card draw. I think you need to look further at interactions. I am not trying to be harsh, just sincere.
Not all of these are directly into grave without some extra effort, but I'll throw them out here anyway. I'm probably missing a few. Also, don't forget cards like Careful Study that sort of accomplish the same thing. There are all kinds of draw spells that lead to discarding. Anyway, here's a few, although I'm sure I'm missing some more.
Corpse Connoisseur
Gifts Ungiven
Intuition
Gamble
I'm not really a casual player, but shouldn't Mycosynth Lattice be somewhere in a deck like this? Just a thought.
Some of my takes
Solidarity (Legacy) - Deciding when to combo off, and how to go about it is brain-wracking. It's truly difficult figuring out if the third land in your hand is enough, or if you need an extra, the probability of you drawing the right card, etc.
Ad-Nauseam Tendrils (Legacy) - It's very difficult setting up your hand properly with tutors, while not exposing yourself to a counterspell or Orim's chant that is going to blow you out.
TPS (Vintage) - None of your cards really do anything objectively, and you're always trying to dig up the win somehow.
5CC (Pre-Zendikar Standard) - Generally speaking, you were always on the ropes, and always struggling for mana. Occasionally you would have the nut hands of lands, removal, and a cruel ultimatum, but frequently enough, you were struggling to draw into what you needed while still holding off upkeep mistbind cliques.
Jund (Standard) - Remembering to play lands can be really difficult...
Please, EXPLAIN YOURSELF. Just posting decks names with no explanation will be treated as spam from here on. -extremeicon
Ok, I'm trying not to be diminutive or otherwise insulting, but you said last October your team was championing this deck as a tier one contender. Nationals took place in June, AFTER M10, EIGHT MONTHS LATER! The deck had access to volcanic fallout and Great Sable Stag at this point. It didn't in October. The deck lost to the best deck in the format at that points (Faeries,) the deck that beat the best deck in the format at that time (RDW/Blightning aggro,) and some random other decks (Esper Lark, the Planeswalkers lists that were running around.) It wasn't tier one until after Volcanic Fallout. Last October, your team was wrong. Look at WORLDS lists (the relevant tournament closest to October.)
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/boab/50
Van Lunen, the pilot of the deck, claims it's about even with 5CC. With minor tweaks, it is favored against 5CC. FNM results really don't mean very much. I've blayed the deck a considerable amount myself and have had much success with 5CC. Drawing on your own anecdotal evidence doesn't really mean much.
And who let's this resolve exactly? Tapping out for a cruel ultimatum, really? You're supposed to board the card out in the mirror. It doesn't win you the game in any capacity, and let's your opponent have free reign to crush you with an actually relevant mirror card (see: identity crisis.) I'm NOT trying to be a jerk here, but I really don't know how you can claim cruel ultimatum is anything but lackluster at best in the mirror.
It's a ramp card, obviously it makes decks faster but lose gas. The thing is that it makes decks MUCH faster. And you're argument about all your spot removal spells to get rid of it turn one makes no sense. First, it's a two drop, and there's no free acceleration to get it out turn 1. SO, you have seven spells to kill it turn two, but your list plays 4 Path to exile, which means you are STILL ramping them up a turn. So you have 3 Lightning bolts, not seven. And this assumes they are not protecting the card with targeted discard or their own counterspells.
I'm not sure what you've tested with this, but you can be certain, Lotus Cobra is a very legit card, and it's speed will knock slow control lists well of balance.
After some testing of cards that I'm pretty sure this deck can't beat, here are some cards that this deck can't beat:
Ajani Vengeant
Goblin Ruinblaster
Elspeth, Knight Errant
Liliana Vess
Emeria, the Sky Ruin
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Duress Followed by any recurring threat/disruption.
Blightning
Garruk Wildspeaker There's nothing stopping anyone from blowing up his ultimate without worrying about cryptic command anymore.
Glacial Fortress
Drowned Catacombs
Thought Hemorrhage (Cruel Ultimatum is too integral to your plan to live without)
It wasn't really a tier one deck last October, it was tier 1.5 because faeries/RDW still annihilated it.
It lost to Kowal Zoo/RDW before, what makes you think a fairly worse version is going to beat those decks now? What can this deck do against more streamlined control decks? Cruel ultimatum is not a particularly good card in a control mirror.
They are now in colors that actively give slow control decks hard times. Kithkin was not a hard matchup, because their game revolved around creatures, and didn't have the reach of burn or hasty dudes. I'm sure your list beats the bad aggro decks that will be running around (soldiers, vampires, etc.) But the decks that are already fast, are faster. Lotus Cobra, while not a bomb, does in fact speed up the format. 5CC struggled with planeswalkers before, and this list, without access to some of the good cards against it (Maelstrom Pulse, Volcanic Fallout, etc.) will struggle more than ever against them. I have no what the deck plans to do against a resolved Elspeth, knight errant, let alone a lotus cobra fueled turn 3 liliana vess or something along those lines.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to "not insult me" when I was making a direct quote. Not to insult you, but you might want to fully read up on who and what you are defending before doing so.
From what I gathered from you and your teammate is that your list beats a lot of bad decks (soldiers, vampires, etc.)
And can you please explain how the format is slower? Aside from a couple losses (Boggart ram-gang, sygg, river cutthroat etc.) every single deck is made quicker since M10 by cards such as lotus cobra, goblin guide, vampire lacerator, lightning bolt, etc. I'm going to argue that the format is faster, and faster by a long shot.
At the end of the day, you will play what you deem is best, and i'll play what I deem best. I'm just hoping I play against a lot of your team (that would be a playful jab.)
First, I apologize for insinuating rupture spire was still in your list. When I had looked at it last, it was still there. Now, let me iron it out for you, since apparently it's not registering, and "makes no sense."
A UWB last can realistically get away with playing 1-2 lands tapped. Your list, I would estimate during the course of a game, will play about 5-7 lands tapped. Of the "most powerful spells in standard" you listed, exactly 2 of them have red in them (Lightning bolt, and cruel ultimatum.) We'll assume that the "etc." accounts for the others, but it's a stretch to call blightning and pyroclasm some of the strongest spells in standard. Of the 75 cards you have in the list you posted, 12 of them are red. Two of them could easily be replaced with infest (pyroclasm). Three of them aren't particularly good cards in standard right now, as there are answers in every deck (Ajani Vengeant,) four of them are assumably for the mirror (blightning? really? tapping out for this?,) three of them could be replaced by a MULTITUDE of different spot removal spells (lightning bolt,) and four of them are your clunky win conditions (cruel ultimatum) that could just as well be more baneslayer angels.
You have 12 sources of black mana (including two fetch lands,) and you want me to believe that you will not have problems casting a cruel ultimatum? Obviously you are going to tell me yes, and that a landbase full of basics and bad cipt lands (jungle shrine? Doesn't seem broken) can cast whatever spells you like. Fair enough. So let me break down an old mana base, and your current mana base.
Lorwyn mana base (Taken from Charles Gindy's nationals list:)
Lands: 26
Blue Sources: 25 (not counting exotic orchard.)
Black Sources: 18 (not counting exotic orchard.)
Red Sources: 17 (not counting exotic orchard.)
Green Sources: 15 (not counting exotic orchard.)
White Sources: 17 (not counting exotic orchard.)
Your List:
Lands: 26
Blue Sources: 16
White Sources: 10
Red Sources: 11
Black Sources: 12
Without even mentioning the superiority of the old lists' lands at fixing mana faster (filters, reflecting pool, etc.) Given you have a lot of double white CC cards in your list, and Need VERY specific color combinations early, your assesment that this list is any way "faster/"better than the old landbase is just flat out off.
You can argue whatever you want, but please don't argue that your landbase is anything but inferior to the 5cc landbase of 6 days ago.