Alright, so the wording "become" is the most important here. A friend told me that every copy loses counters of the original, but this is a different case as you stated.
Is there any way an opponent could get his creature's charasteristics back after the damage is dealt and his creature became a copy?
My tactic was basically only to block with it once I have at least power 3 on it, so the opponent's creature dies immediately after becoming Mass. Just to make sure, in this case, does it mean that Mass would kill Athreos, Shroud-Veiled?
Its ability has a wording "becomes a copy". Until now, I only encountered instances where you "copy <something>" in which case the copy doesn't get the counters that are on the original. When Permeating Mass touches something, will it retain its counters? I was thinking about playing Masses, boosting it with cards like the aforementioned Long-Forgotten Gohei, +1/+1 counters and other spells. If I understand it correctly, all I need is to have my Mass at least power 3 and then it basically works like deathtouch, but it also kills indestructible. Is this right?
Post moved from a previous thread to its own thread since it was an independent question. -MadMage
- I declare Oran-Rief Ooze as an attacker.
- Two abilities trigger at the SAME TIME, I put 4 counters on the Ooze. (one for its own trigger + Hardened Scales extra one, third one for Curse of Predation trigger + Hardened Scales extra one)
- I copy Hardened Scales' trigger with the Weaver
With the copy, do I get another two counters for a total of six for both triggers on the Curse and the Ooze? Or does the copy apply only for one instance of the trigger even if they happened at the same time and I only get 5?
If only 5 is the answer, would it be wiser to copy the Curse instead? Would I get 6 counters then?
- I cast a creature triggering the Beastcaller for a counter, making extra one with the Scales
- I put a counter + extra one on the Scourge for its trigger that came AFTER the Beastcaller got it, but from the same initial action
- I copy Hardened Scales' trigger with the Weaver
If Centaur Courser is still on the stack (or in your hand) when "T: Put a +1/+1 counter on each green creature that entered the battlefield this turn." resolves, it won't get a counter; it hasn't entered the battlefield (yet). Garruk's Uprising's ability won't trigger for a 3/3 that enters the battlefield, even if it's going to become 4/4 Real Soon Now.
The creaturss have to be on the battlefield when Oran-Rief's ability resolves, but otherwise, right, yes. So it's not nessessary to cast the geen creature, they could just as well get reanimated or be generated token creatures, they don't even have to be green until the ability resolves.
Now that I understand that buffing my 3/3 that just entered won't trigger Garruk's Uprising's last ability, even if I put the buff on the stack of the Garruk's trigger, I still have a very hard time understanding the stack.
Correct me if this is not possible as I just bumped into this curious situation similar to the last one:
> I cast God-Eternal Rhonas and it enters the battlefield
> I also have Yorvo, Lord of Garenbrig on the battlefield with four +1/+1 counters
> I create a stack with the following order (top to bottom) with noone responding and letting everything resolve:
- Oran-Rief, the Vastwood last ativated ability
- Yorvo, Lord of Garenbrig's ETB trigger
- God-Eternal Rhonas' ETB trigger
This should happen: God-Eternal Rhonas gets one +1/+1 counter and becomes a 6/6, Yorvo, Lord of Garenbrig gets two +1/+1 counters and also becomes a 6/6, and finally Rhonas doubles Yorvo's power to become a 12/6 vigilant.
Is this correct?
The ability gives you special permission to do the casting. Remember, the game works by giving you permission to take actions. If you don't have permission, you can't to the thing. But the rules don't forbid the casting of a sorcery spell outside sorcery timing, for example, they give permission to cast it with sorcery timing.
Meaning I can play any card, any time I have priority with Mosswort Bridge's hideaway?
That casting has to happen during the resolution of the hideaway trigger, though, when no player could normally not do anything.
With you mentioning this, I was also wondering about Shinen of Life's Roar's ability. As I've heard, declaring attackers and blockers doesn't use the stack. From the nature of it, I assume that once I declare Shinen as an attacker, all opponent's creature have to block him if able and he cannot do nothing about it, as there is no stack, right? Even if he destroys Shinen with an instant, his blockers were already declared by his ability and he cannot choose to re-assing them with and all my other creatures now being free to attack without worrying about being blocked, right?
What is a legal target is descibed by what follows the word "target".
Similarly to that, how do I copy a triggered ability with Weaver of Harmony on something like the already said Concord with the Kami or one that targets something? Do I copy the whole rules of the card and may get all three effects? Or I just copy one of the options? What if I copy one source twice with two Weawers? What if it triggers some more triggers, does the coppied trigger respond to the other triggers? For how long does the copy last? Until the stack is resolved? Until end of turn? If I copy an activated ability that had a mana cost and/or a tapping requirement, when I copy it, do I have to pay the price again or does it just makes the effect twice with paying once? I'm really tempted to use this card but I'm really confused about how it works as there is little practical info about it on the net.
Thank you. My friend also told me that I can use Oran-Rief, the Vastwood only AFTER I cast the green creatures, otherwise they won't get the counter, because there is a word "entered", which is not very typical wording on cards. Is that right?
I'm still often confused by the "when X enters the battlefield, then *effect*..." and "play" vs "cast"? There are a lot of contradictory opinions on this topic on different forums.
1) If cards entering the battlefield can trigger their own ETB abilities, then why Eidolon of Blossoms has it explicitely stated and most others not? Like with Anointer Priest Token, you get 1 life just by itself entering.
2) How is "successful cast" different from "entered the battlefield"? Is "successful cast" different from just "cast", does it happen sooner?
For example, I have two creatures on the board: Setessan Champion and Kami of Transience. Then Hardened Scales enter the battlefield. I presume that Champion gets 2 counters and Kami only gets one, is that right?
3) Is the Hideaway "play" ability on Fight Rigging considered as "casting a spell" meaning it can be countered and can trigger abilities with "whenever you cast" like Primeval Bounty? Also can I play the exiled card as though it would have flash? May I play any creature in opponent's combat phase and immediately block with it? By general rules, I really couldn't "cast" anything without flash in this case.
4) Can I play a card which says "untap target creature + other effects" even if the target creature isn't tapped or the opposite? There are no "play only if" or "as an additional cost". During our games, we had cards like Blind with Anger, Charmed Sleep or Crippling Chill and we weren't sure if we can play them or will the target be illegal? I was also confused when I read the following on wizards.com for Concord with the Kami:
You cannot choose the first mode unless you have a legal target for it. You may choose the second and third mode even if you don't have an enchanted or equipped creature at the time this ability triggers.
How can I choose the 2nd and 3rd option if I don't meet the conditions?
Does this also mean that casting a 3/3 green creature while having Oran-Rief, the Vastwood on the battlefield and tapping it any one moment - before, on the stack while casting the 3/3, or after - will not trigger Garruk's Uprising in any situation as it will always get the counter after it enterED the battlefield, right?
Does this also mean that cards like Katilda, Dawnhart Martyr get 5/5 power from 5 spirits on the battlefield including itself and +2/+2 from two Long-Forgotten Goheis for a total of 7/7? Or does it become just a 5/5 as it's power / toughness is always euqal to the number of spirits only?
1) When I succesfully cast a 2/2 Spirit creature and on the battlefield it immediately becomes a 4/4 because of two Long-Forgotten Goheis, does it trigger Garruk's Uprising's last continuous card drawing ability?
2) Does Rending Vines count as a card on hand when I use it?
Is there any way an opponent could get his creature's charasteristics back after the damage is dealt and his creature became a copy?
My tactic was basically only to block with it once I have at least power 3 on it, so the opponent's creature dies immediately after becoming Mass. Just to make sure, in this case, does it mean that Mass would kill Athreos, Shroud-Veiled?
Thank you.
Its ability has a wording "becomes a copy". Until now, I only encountered instances where you "copy <something>" in which case the copy doesn't get the counters that are on the original. When Permeating Mass touches something, will it retain its counters? I was thinking about playing Masses, boosting it with cards like the aforementioned Long-Forgotten Gohei, +1/+1 counters and other spells. If I understand it correctly, all I need is to have my Mass at least power 3 and then it basically works like deathtouch, but it also kills indestructible. Is this right?
Post moved from a previous thread to its own thread since it was an independent question. -MadMage
Thank you all for your valuable information.
Example 1
Battlefield:
Hardened Scales
Curse of Predation
Weaver of Harmony
Oran-Rief Ooze with a +1/+1 counter on it
- I declare Oran-Rief Ooze as an attacker.
- Two abilities trigger at the SAME TIME, I put 4 counters on the Ooze. (one for its own trigger + Hardened Scales extra one, third one for Curse of Predation trigger + Hardened Scales extra one)
- I copy Hardened Scales' trigger with the Weaver
With the copy, do I get another two counters for a total of six for both triggers on the Curse and the Ooze? Or does the copy apply only for one instance of the trigger even if they happened at the same time and I only get 5?
If only 5 is the answer, would it be wiser to copy the Curse instead? Would I get 6 counters then?
Example 2
Battlefield:
Hardened Scales
Weaver of Harmony
Quirion Beastcaller
Wildwood Scourge
- I cast a creature triggering the Beastcaller for a counter, making extra one with the Scales
- I put a counter + extra one on the Scourge for its trigger that came AFTER the Beastcaller got it, but from the same initial action
- I copy Hardened Scales' trigger with the Weaver
Do I get total of 5 counters here or 6?
Now that I understand that buffing my 3/3 that just entered won't trigger Garruk's Uprising's last ability, even if I put the buff on the stack of the Garruk's trigger, I still have a very hard time understanding the stack.
Correct me if this is not possible as I just bumped into this curious situation similar to the last one:
> I cast God-Eternal Rhonas and it enters the battlefield
> I also have Yorvo, Lord of Garenbrig on the battlefield with four +1/+1 counters
> I create a stack with the following order (top to bottom) with noone responding and letting everything resolve:
- Oran-Rief, the Vastwood last ativated ability
- Yorvo, Lord of Garenbrig's ETB trigger
- God-Eternal Rhonas' ETB trigger
This should happen: God-Eternal Rhonas gets one +1/+1 counter and becomes a 6/6, Yorvo, Lord of Garenbrig gets two +1/+1 counters and also becomes a 6/6, and finally Rhonas doubles Yorvo's power to become a 12/6 vigilant.
Is this correct?
Meaning I can play any card, any time I have priority with Mosswort Bridge's hideaway?
With you mentioning this, I was also wondering about Shinen of Life's Roar's ability. As I've heard, declaring attackers and blockers doesn't use the stack. From the nature of it, I assume that once I declare Shinen as an attacker, all opponent's creature have to block him if able and he cannot do nothing about it, as there is no stack, right? Even if he destroys Shinen with an instant, his blockers were already declared by his ability and he cannot choose to re-assing them with and all my other creatures now being free to attack without worrying about being blocked, right?
That means that all of Blind with Anger, Charmed Sleep or Crippling Chill are usable on whether the creature is tapped or not?
Similarly to that, how do I copy a triggered ability with Weaver of Harmony on something like the already said Concord with the Kami or one that targets something? Do I copy the whole rules of the card and may get all three effects? Or I just copy one of the options? What if I copy one source twice with two Weawers? What if it triggers some more triggers, does the coppied trigger respond to the other triggers? For how long does the copy last? Until the stack is resolved? Until end of turn? If I copy an activated ability that had a mana cost and/or a tapping requirement, when I copy it, do I have to pay the price again or does it just makes the effect twice with paying once? I'm really tempted to use this card but I'm really confused about how it works as there is little practical info about it on the net.
I'm still often confused by the "when X enters the battlefield, then *effect*..." and "play" vs "cast"? There are a lot of contradictory opinions on this topic on different forums.
1) If cards entering the battlefield can trigger their own ETB abilities, then why Eidolon of Blossoms has it explicitely stated and most others not? Like with Anointer Priest Token, you get 1 life just by itself entering.
2) How is "successful cast" different from "entered the battlefield"? Is "successful cast" different from just "cast", does it happen sooner?
For example, I have two creatures on the board: Setessan Champion and Kami of Transience. Then Hardened Scales enter the battlefield. I presume that Champion gets 2 counters and Kami only gets one, is that right?
3) Is the Hideaway "play" ability on Fight Rigging considered as "casting a spell" meaning it can be countered and can trigger abilities with "whenever you cast" like Primeval Bounty? Also can I play the exiled card as though it would have flash? May I play any creature in opponent's combat phase and immediately block with it? By general rules, I really couldn't "cast" anything without flash in this case.
4) Can I play a card which says "untap target creature + other effects" even if the target creature isn't tapped or the opposite? There are no "play only if" or "as an additional cost". During our games, we had cards like Blind with Anger, Charmed Sleep or Crippling Chill and we weren't sure if we can play them or will the target be illegal? I was also confused when I read the following on wizards.com for Concord with the Kami:
You cannot choose the first mode unless you have a legal target for it. You may choose the second and third mode even if you don't have an enchanted or equipped creature at the time this ability triggers.
How can I choose the 2nd and 3rd option if I don't meet the conditions?
1) When I succesfully cast a 2/2 Spirit creature and on the battlefield it immediately becomes a 4/4 because of two Long-Forgotten Goheis, does it trigger Garruk's Uprising's last continuous card drawing ability?
2) Does Rending Vines count as a card on hand when I use it?
Thank you!