Countering spells is not interaction. It's not working around things. It's preventing them from ever happening.
It's no wonder wizards is cutting down on those things. Besides, why are you complaining? You are the primary card draw color! You have the option to get more options more than the rest of us do!
Black gets you cards in exchange for life. Green gets you cards for creatures you play or have. Red gets you cards in exchange for other cards. White gets you cards for playing specific things. Blue gets you cards with no drawback. So I have to disagree with you.
Blue has one remotely playable draw spell. The drawback is mana cost and inefficiency.
Countering spells is not interaction. It's not working around things. It's preventing them from ever happening.
It's no wonder wizards is cutting down on those things. Besides, why are you complaining? You are the primary card draw color! You have the option to get more options more than the rest of us do!
Thanks for linking Ali's article. I can't address anything he said about modern but I will wholeheartedly agree with him that Aetherworks Marvel was the culprit and not quite as much Emrakul. I think Emrakul was a good ban though because they pushed it just over the edge with 'Protection from instants'. Especially right now when sorcery removal is just terrible.
Ali said, "Emrakul was banned because she ended games too easily when cast. Games could be won after she was cast but it was extremely difficult to do so. When you played against an Emrakul deck she was always looming over the game and as soon as she was cast, the usually came to an end."
That whole reasoning completely applies to dirty kitty. Words from WotC mouth I'll be shocked and appalled if they don't ban it. There is no game after it hits and instead of rolling the dice (Marvel) you get to plan how you hit it. It is completely oppressive to even brew knowing you MUST answer it.
I agree Gideon is crazy strong, especially since maybe they've realized it and scaled back all the planeswalkers since. The good is maybe they've realized the error and are correcting (thus all the lesser planeswalkers), the bad is... well he's Gideon. Who by the way can power Heart of Kiran and attack at the same time... that's not strong at all...
Honestly reflector mage was a symptom of CoCo being ridiculous. Sure lets give green an instant tempo card that builds their board by 2 creatures... and then give them creatures that make them a permissions deck too. (cough spell queller). The creatures themselves are fine, it was CoCo that made it stupid. (yes I know neither of those are green however they fit into the archetype which was already strong)
Someone earlier hit it on the head the WHITE GREEN SMASH PUNY everyone attitude needs to get slapped hard by someone above R&D's head. Thus Gideon and all the other recent shenanigans.
This is exactly what I've been thinking. Everything about Gideon makes him a prime candidate for banning, yet banning him also wouldn't have severe consequences, as Mardu and other decks will still be playable without him. As for Heart or Scrounger, banning either one of these would actually destroy Mardu Vehicles.
But I disagree on applying the logic of Emrakul's ban on kitty: unlike Emmy, kitty doesn't have protection from Instants. While this does force you to keep an instant removal at the ready, you still have a fighting chance. Sure that might be a little oppressive but hardly at the same level as Emrakul.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Especially about Scrounger. There are several 3 power creatures in Mardu colors to replace it with. Just not at 2 mana, and don't reanimate themselves ad nauseum. Hell, Depala was made for this deck!
The big issue is that it isn't like Jace and Stoneforge where there were just two really problematic cards and removing them would fix things up, or even Affinity where you just had one particular deck that was way overpowered and had to be stamped out. It's more like the format itself (rather than one particular part of it as was the case with Jace/Stoneforge, Affinity, and Skullclamp for that matter) is messed up and that's not really something you can fix up with bans. Actually a bit reminiscent of the Urza's Saga block, where they had to just hit a ton of different cards in order to get the format into something decent.
Yeah, this is years of bad development decisions culminating into what we're seeing now.
To be honest I really want to see another wave of bannings happen again. Some combination of HoK/Gideon/Cat/Scrounger would be ideal.
R&D and the FFL are rotten to the core, and there needs to be another "get pulled into the president's office and yelled at" moment like there was during Urza's Saga to insure that a massive overhaul to the development of this game happen.
100% truth. MaRo and his "make White and Green and creatures good at all costs" regime need to be reigned in and/or shaken up yesterday. FFL clearly needs new blood, or expansion. I always thought these groups need a rotational schedule, or some built in mechanism to keep the game from moving in the same direction for too long. It feels like Magic has been dumbed down and over simplified, which is available in other games if that's what you want. It feels less and less like Magic each year.
There will always be a best deck. There will always be great cards in those decks--Rally, Company, Siege Rhino, Sphinx Rev, Gary, Thassa, Thragtusk, etc. There will always be control mages that complain that their archetype isn't good anymore. These truths are eternal. Wizards banning all those cards might balance the format, but it would certainly kill it.
I don't play control, however I am willing to take a step back and look at the format's overall health regardless of what impact that may or may not have on me. When Copter, Mage, and Emrakul were banned from the format, pretty much every deck I played was killed off at the time; that said, it needed to happen for the health and viability of the format as a whole, which suffered immensely. The player population was dwindling, and these cards were complete jokes that never should have gone to print.
Discussing it as though people are wanting to ban things just because it's the best deck is flawed, because that is not what the argument is. Equally, while there are always power discrepencies, sometimes they just make a complete and utter mistake. The have undoubtedly been increasing the power level of threats over the past few years, and this has led to problems, some of which have been significant. The most dire situation we were in for a great many years was pre-rotation CoCo. By all accounts, including those coming from Wizards, the deck was too good and something should have been banned from it. This wasn't belly-aching about CoCo being strong; it was actively discouraging people from playing the format almost across the board. The deck was leagues ahead of practically everything else that you could have been playing, and it wasn't close.
Standard has honestly been in a bad way for a while, and while it is certainly better now than it was not too long ago, it is also not particularly good. We have a 3-deck format currently: Vehicles, which doesn't give you time to play any sort of long game of any sort due to how effecient their aggressive creatures are; 4-Color Saheeli, which wildly contorts your deck building and play pattern to the point where an entire class of cards which would see play normally are rendered completely unplayable from now until it rotates in a years and a half; and Snek, which preys on the deck building concessions made by the first two.
Now, we run into another problem as stated before: Bannings won't fix the underlying problems the format faces. Wizards went too far with their threat base and have been for some time, particularly in Green and White, and we are seeing the continuing problems with standard because of it. It's not a "best deck is the best deck" situation in the least; rather it's that the past few iterations of standards have had incredibly punishing decks that require you to not miss a beat the entire game, else you lose almost on the spot. That's indicative of poor development and design, and frankly things won't change for quite some time. The problem is these development philosophies have been so ingrained in the current R&D that there's really no getting out of it from bans alone. A shift in their viewpoints towards design and development needs to occur, and it needs to occur two years ago.
Lately, with my build of Esper, Saheeli is a cakewalk, BG is draw dependent, but on paper, should be easy, and Mardu is draw dependent. I just went to 4 Fatal Push main, but I'm having a lot of consistency issues. I'm on 2 Anticipate right now, after trying 0 Jim Davis style and compromising to 2. I also went down to 26 MD land with Blighted Fen (VERY good so far) in the SB to mitigate flooding. I seem to lose from running out of gas and not having enough removal mid game. Unsure of what to do next. I think I will try Dynavolt Tower as repeatable removal since I have no energy uses besides my 2 Aether Hub.
I decided to go the Esper route because my previous UB version seemed too focused on Mardu Vehicles, and I didn't think it would do well against GB Constrictor or Jund Energy. I also like having access to Blessed Alliance to deal with the occasional Bristling Hydra.
I was thinking about adding a Fumigate to the SB to have 3 against GB Constrictor and Jund Energy, but I'm not sure if that's too many for a 5 mana sweeper.
Also still on the fence about Gisela versus Mardu vehicles.
From my experience, if there is a lot of Energy and GB, there is no such thing as too many. Especially Combo Energy with Pummeler. He has to go IMMEDIATELY, or they might "oops, I win" you.
Dovin seems Meh in a draw go shell. Is he a late game win condition, great against control, or am I missing something?
Dovin is a Jack Of All Trades. Draws cards, gains life, stops creature abilities (huge vs. Selfless Spirit), slows aggro. The ultimate almost never happens, but in a control mirror, if you can get the emblem, you can instigate a counter war EOT with little repercussions.
G/B tends to go heavy on incremental value cards like Trackers, Ob's and Nissa's. One thing I want to keep are my draw spells but cutting back on card filtering/selection isn't so bad when we interact with them favorably. I got some time to test against a very fringe deck, U/W Flash which is now just Spirit tribal. It was ROUGH, it's not a deck that was on my radar but I didn't feel favored at all. With my clunky removal (geared to beat big dumb creatures).
There;s more work to be done, with Saheeli combo beginning to run more walkers, I can see To the Slaughter being good against them, along with the 3-4 Ruinous Path.
I should mention that my version of control is geared to beat:
G/B Aggro
G/B Delirium
Saheeli Twin
Mardu Vehicles is still a thing but the removal lines up fine. Not worred about that match up.
Decks that gives my version fits:
U/W Flash
G/R Energy (Thinking of adding Slaughters MD)
Colossus
Maybe Esper is the way to go, 4 Transgress the mind may be great, I'm not sure. I know I'll be running U/B This weekend though.
@racerxen, I've found that having early interaction against GB decks is pretty much all you need. Trying to make sure that you have enough interaction in the deck is really the main issue. For instance, Jim Davis' list goes supremely heavy on counter magic. I get it. If he's going to be beat, it won't be by the top 3 decks after last weekend. It just feels so awkward against so many other decks.
As far as decks that give UB fits, I'm pretty sure GR Energy would cease being an issue if you added white to your deck. Blessed Alliance is a rock star in that match as well as Anguished Unmaking in most matches. Anguished Unmaking sometimes feels like an "easy button." I've run into some crazy stuff at my LGS. It just makes me wonder what we may see at the next large Standard event. I would stick with Dimir though since that's what you have tested. It's a bit late in the day to be changing your entire game plan.
Came in to say this. Blessed Alliance is an all-star against GR Energy. At one league I play at, I had to play two of them every week. I upped the Fumigate to 3 after SB, and Alliance to 4 after SB, and my win rate went from about 50% to about 90%.
I am very tempted to take out my Anticipates, or go to maybe one, but in Esper, the color fixing may be too important...I will find out the hard way tonight.
Against any blue based control deck Sphinx of the Final Word absolutely hoses them. It's a uncounterable hexproof flyer, the only cards in u/b that can deal with it would be blighted fen or To The Slaughter, and if you have 1 counterspell backup when you cast it, there's nothing they can do about it. I have yet to play a control mirror where we both resolve a Sphinx, not sure how that would work out, as every spell after that is unctounterable.
I also favor Transgress in control mirrors, worst case scenario is you get them to waste a negate on it, which is still a win IMO. Best case you get to see their hand which is almost more valuable than getting them to discard.
That is my style, but I found that I had to dial back on the planeswalkers. That may be alleviated some with Copter's ban, but there will still be aggro and fast Vehicles. Especially Jace. Since his +1 draws, if he doesn't die, the 2nd in hand is really bad. Also, as much as i love Sorin, I cut him due to the speed of the format, and that paying six to remove one creature and gain some virtual life by him dying didn't seem worth it, as well as almost dying or dying before getting to deploy him. I think he is a SB card right now.
Well spoilers are done so how has fatal push been going in everyone's testing? As good as advertised? The lack of turning on revolt easily or sudden absence of the copter making it sorta meh? Here's the list that I've been working with and having fun with.
One thought I'm not entirely sure on is the removal of rebuff. With copter being gone and marvel taking a down tick, I'm not sure if they should be cut or not as those were the main things keeping it down. The counter point is that vehicles are still amazing and with more being printed that seem to be playable it may still be the same story. the playability of rebuff is surely something that we should keep a watch on.
Yahenni's has been kinda hit and miss, again due to vehicles. However it is an effect that I don't feel we can do without in pure UB colors. The lack of freebie follow ups is disappointing, but not something that is holding it back. An anticipate follow up or grasp for a bigger threat is for sure a powerful play, but it is FAR from being a proper sweeper. Push on the other hand has been great at what it does; one mana removal for aggro. The lack of turning on revolt has been kind of tilting I'll admit, but as a 3-of it absolutely pulls it's weight. I'm not sold entirely on the MD negate, but it's going to be a "fine" choice in the new meta I'm sure. I'm simply not convinced it's as solid as it once was, but we will see.
How is everyone's list and testing shaping out for UB since the ban wave?
Good list. I haven't done much testing yet due to personal issues, but I think Esper gets much more use out of Yahenni's Expertise. I think it goes perfect with Anguished Unmaking. Also, as great as I think Glimmer Of Genius is, I'm testing Live Fast to abuse Expertise. I definitely am excited about Fatal Push as well, as I have to run Evolving Wilds anyway. Perhaps 1 or 2 Wilds would be useful for U/B? I know it's not really needed, but it enables Push, and is mid/late game deck thinning to avoid flood.
Blue has one remotely playable draw spell. The drawback is mana cost and inefficiency.
Lifecrafter's Bestiary, Tireless Tracker, Cathartic Reunion, Cryptbreaker, Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, Thraben Inspector, Ob-Nixilis Reignited, two versions of Nissa, Painful Truths, Sram, Senior Edificer, Live Fast, Succumb To Temptation, Tormenting Voice all disagree.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Especially about Scrounger. There are several 3 power creatures in Mardu colors to replace it with. Just not at 2 mana, and don't reanimate themselves ad nauseum. Hell, Depala was made for this deck!
100% truth. MaRo and his "make White and Green and creatures good at all costs" regime need to be reigned in and/or shaken up yesterday. FFL clearly needs new blood, or expansion. I always thought these groups need a rotational schedule, or some built in mechanism to keep the game from moving in the same direction for too long. It feels like Magic has been dumbed down and over simplified, which is available in other games if that's what you want. It feels less and less like Magic each year.
Preach! *throws hands to the sky*
Not that I'm aware of. Feel free to get one rolling if there isn't.
From my experience, if there is a lot of Energy and GB, there is no such thing as too many. Especially Combo Energy with Pummeler. He has to go IMMEDIATELY, or they might "oops, I win" you.
Dovin is a Jack Of All Trades. Draws cards, gains life, stops creature abilities (huge vs. Selfless Spirit), slows aggro. The ultimate almost never happens, but in a control mirror, if you can get the emblem, you can instigate a counter war EOT with little repercussions.
Came in to say this. Blessed Alliance is an all-star against GR Energy. At one league I play at, I had to play two of them every week. I upped the Fumigate to 3 after SB, and Alliance to 4 after SB, and my win rate went from about 50% to about 90%.
I am very tempted to take out my Anticipates, or go to maybe one, but in Esper, the color fixing may be too important...I will find out the hard way tonight.
Spot on.
That is my style, but I found that I had to dial back on the planeswalkers. That may be alleviated some with Copter's ban, but there will still be aggro and fast Vehicles. Especially Jace. Since his +1 draws, if he doesn't die, the 2nd in hand is really bad. Also, as much as i love Sorin, I cut him due to the speed of the format, and that paying six to remove one creature and gain some virtual life by him dying didn't seem worth it, as well as almost dying or dying before getting to deploy him. I think he is a SB card right now.
Good list. I haven't done much testing yet due to personal issues, but I think Esper gets much more use out of Yahenni's Expertise. I think it goes perfect with Anguished Unmaking. Also, as great as I think Glimmer Of Genius is, I'm testing Live Fast to abuse Expertise. I definitely am excited about Fatal Push as well, as I have to run Evolving Wilds anyway. Perhaps 1 or 2 Wilds would be useful for U/B? I know it's not really needed, but it enables Push, and is mid/late game deck thinning to avoid flood.