- SunTzu
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Member for 15 years, 8 months, and 18 days
Last active Thu, Mar, 21 2024 18:22:34
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May 25, 2011hey bro, have you considered sword of body and mind and sword of feast and famine in here? seems like sword of body and mind would be especially good since when you equip it to your phyrexian crusader you gain protection from red, white, blue, and green too. all thats left to kill your guy is basically dismember at that point lol. worth trying i'd sayPosted in: Lactone Blog
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Another obvious one (in the rules) that cant cast it is snapcaster mage.
I think I understand it mostly now.
If I understand you correctly aetherflux marvel should work, to cast restore balance.
Do you know any cards which WONT work to cheat it into play? I know the cards are special in that they have no manacost unlike 99% of cards.
Also I am confused a bit on when a card like restore balance will have a manacost. I know it works with as foretold, and you can even 'cheat' it into play with brain in a jar + sacrifice effect. If someone could clear this up it would be appreciated.
If I have multiple fluctuators in play it will help my X costs, right? So Decree Cycling with 2 fluctuators in play is 1 White mana for X=2?
I feel like probably, just wanted to be sure.
I worry about the cost of all of these cards. Those mana costs are brutal. Siege will always go into a card draw 'engine' spot, not one of your interactive spots so you could potentially run both.
Monastery siege has been excellent for me if my opponent is slow at all or not seriously clocking me in the red zone. Probably meta dependent. Been testing Bontu's Last Reckoning and Sultai Ascendancy and they both seem like they have a lot of potential. Sultai Asc 'digs' deeper than Siege does so Im trying numbers skewed towards Asc but using both. 2 Siege 3 Asc. Bontus has been excellent and Im super curious about it. Im wondering if my semi working Sultai list could work using cards like Treasure Map + Clockspinning in some numbers. Simian spirit guide also works well with Bontus and helps me unload my hand which sometimes has been an issue with my newer lists with clunky 3 mana things all over the place.
I also wonder about the potential about a list using aether vial and one of the 'artifacts cost 1 less' creatures for 2 mana. Huge combo potential with paradoxical outcome to find things fast and replay/dump hand.Noose Constrictor to dump hand. Potential to use eladamris -> Constrictor or 1 of Tribute mage to find your brain in a jar to combo off.
Would you mind posting both those lists? (search eladamris and borderpost).
I was always super convinced borderposts were not the way to go unless I was on cascade because of how easy those cards are to hate out. Running borderposts into a artifact removal card or god forbid ancient grudge is rough. Thats why I always avoid them if I can help it at all.
Even with 4 call and 4 gargadon youre still having trouble suspending gargadon? Sometimes I might just call that being unlucky because thats normally been plenty of ways to fetch up a garg to suspend.
As for more combos make sure you arent diulting the strategy too much. Overlap cards or cards that hit our goals while maintaining the board state will probably help more than individual cards that are nuts when drawn with their counterparts. Especially when we can only run 1-4 of a card "A" and 1-4 of a card "B".
We need so many things to line up already it will probably hurt the deck to require this many slots and maybe even more build around cards to bring it together. That said you do have eladamri's call or congregation at dawn.
Please make sure your sideboard includes probably 2 minimum and easily 3 or even 4 Ceremonious Rejection. When a single card eats our deck so hard we really need to put some SB slots dedicated to stopping it. I also run a lot of remand since its great for tempo and staying on gameplan with the +1 draw, especially if you can go off next turn.
Ive been messing around with a black list but I havent been able to find a playtest partner for a while to test anything new :C
Here is my new spicy black list. It aims to grind my opponent down and win via attrition or maybe just a gargadon. Or maybe I get a small faerie army going and overrun them. Bitterblossom by itself can out race its -1 damage provided the board is clear, but with Bad moon you can actually push your faeries pretty hard into the red zone.:
3 Coldsteel Heart
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
3 Brain in a Jar
2 Talisman of Indulgence
2 Talisman of Creativity
2 Dimir Signet
2 Talisman of Dominance
// 4 Creature
4 Greater Gargadon
// 14 Enchantment
4 As Foretold
3 Monastery Siege
4 Bitterblossom
3 Bad Moon
4 Glimmervoid
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Island
4 Tolaria West
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Snow-Covered Swamp
// 2 Planeswalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
// 7 Sorcery
4 Restore Balance
3 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Defense Grid
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Remand
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Thoughtseize
Another cool card I just found is Sultai Ascendancy. Anyone who has played with Mirri's Guile before can attest to the strength of this type of card having a per-turn filter effect.
For card advantage we have thirst for knowledge, fact or fiction, (my least favorite) ancestral vision.
Personally from my testing (non cascade) tutors are often times much much better than card advantage. You can spend a lot of time and mana digging for things but just drawing 1 tutor and getting what you need is elegant. From there sometimes instead of more draw I have just run more redundancy, depending. The main problem being these 'good' draw spells are very clunky mana costs, typically. We have thoughtcast but draw 2 is almost not good enough, just being +1 card advantage. Thirst for knowledge is very good, and monastery siege is as well; but they are 3 mana. The worst on a mana curve.
I did consider and make a paradoxical outcome list but I needed mox's 0 mana cost.
One of our main 'hero' cards (non cascade) is arcums astrolabe. <3 that card.
Brain is for non cascade lists that want to be as fast as possible. This deck is slow/grindy. Doenst need to win with the first balance since I can offload my manabase into artifact mana and use that for things like bontus.
I just dont really have room for every single card. So I opted towards being streamlined in my approach / gameplan. I want to control the board, maybe stick a liliana. Eventually have 0 lands (gargadon) and restore balance. And eventually win from grinding them down and winning via attrition or just a gargadon. You guys seemed to think we need more than 1 wincon so I added a few more. Even using 18 mana I still need so many of each type of card to make things work and give overlap so I can run 5-8 of a certain card instead of only 1-4. Like how I'm now running 4 As foretold with typically some number of brain with 4 tolaria west+4 balance.
Im not interested in beating every single deck. Like I said everything is meta dependent so just build what you think will work best and most consistently. Sure I'll have garbage matchups but its modern, every deck has garbage matchups. And every list I make will obviously be better vs different types of lists. Its not like I play each list Ive posted X times I havent had much time to test since mox was banned. Im giving you guys concept ideas so people can see what Im talking about: That non cascade can be made in a LOT of different ways and each way can have plenty of overlap and consistency. Then hopefully with any extra slots you can build to your meta. Our deck can be up to 5 colors with ease.
As for 'full combo' typically when I combo off Im at maybe 1 or 2 cards in hand (almost every single time) and 0 lands and 0 creatures. Either that or I didn't make it in time. This will depend on my opponent.
Honestly dude I know youre trying to help but sometimes you seem pretty condescending. Seems like youve been 100% sure my approach wont work despite presumably having never even tested using moxes or seen it work. Have you even tried to playtest non cascade at all? Idk maybe you updated your list but the last one you posted seemed both very scattered and easy to attack from many angles like borderposts being a huge target, which would explain why you seem so convinced this cant work if thats the only list youve tried in this archetype. Try to tone it down a bit man were all on the same side. And honestly if you want this deck that has huge % against all of the field why are you even here?
Astrolabe is awesome. Even just being 1 food and a cantrip is fine. Mana fixing is nice it just brings it all together and gives great consistency, whilst being 'perfect' to slot into any manacurves.
Borderposts are a huge potential weakness. I feel bad running any but were really short on options for this category outside of signets/talismans which dont give double black too well and I dont want to ping myself every time I tap for black mana. So while coldsteel is slower, it gives the color I need (prob the core color black for BB1 bontus). Borderposts giving -1 land is not always an upside, its situational. And if you cant 'shortcut' it its just worse. Def not a card Im trying to play.
Thanks mate! Yea our SB options for this list are great. Finding Ceremonious Rejection recently was great. Fk you karn! Lol
I'll leave you guys with my 'bant' list I brewed up:
4 As Foretold
3 Brain in a Jar
4 Restore Balance
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Talisman of Curiosity
3 Selesnya Signet
2 Talisman of Creativity
2 Monastery Siege
1 Thopter Spy Network
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Eladamri's Call
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Snow-Covered Island
4 Tolaria West
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Glimmervoid
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Defense Grid
1 Nature's Claim
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Venarian Glimmer
4 Remand
1 Electrodominance
3 Ceremonious Rejection
Yes I play to compete. Thats my goal of building decks and tweaking them. To improve them to compete more.
I havent run into lost legacy or bitterblossom. I have lost to extirpate once though. Should I run more threats and ways to win? Maybe, but Im not overly worried about it since gargadon does work and almost every time its not an issue. Then I can be that much more focused and consistent in my approach and not have to worry about clunky cards that arent getting me there.
Our '3 combo pieces' aren't just 4 ofs tho. Some of them can be in multiples and all of them can be fetched or drawn into with good draw spells. And sure were not winning with lifegain or w/e or on the spot but when I have a garg in play and they have 1 card in hand (maybe), its a 2 turn clock almost every single time and rarely if ever are they coming back. Maybe I have to attack liliana first so she cant -2. Either way the massive clock is ending them fast.
Youre prob right about not needing Bauble now. The main plus to this was to be thrown into gargs mouth, not even for the draw. Just the 0 mana cost that sometimes gives you a card. Maybe not needed.
Cantrips might work, havent tried them in large numbers yet. That said, you can spend a lot of time and mana spinning your wheels and still not end up with enough artifacts to feed gargadon. Which is typically my goal.. to balance then attack with gargadon on the exact same turn (which is why it end up feeling more like a combo deck to me). Simian spirit guide is the same deal. Its not an artifact and while the +1 mana is great, its fleeting. Sometimes the extra 1 mana whenever you want it might be better as just a land or just a talisman, I have found. I used to play with SSG a lot, not so much anymore. Maybe as a 1 of. Its just a tiny bit too niche or something, idk. Not quite enough power. Who knows, maybe you could be in a spot where you are running some monastery siege or fact or fiction or some random card like that where that turn-earlier spell is more gas than normal.
4 color is not a problem. Neither is splashing GW in a UR deck. I could be 5 colors easily. Theres so many cards to enable that its absurd. Do not need mox. It just helped. Really theres plenty without mox to fix mana.
Signets / talismans are phenomenal. Exactly what you want with balance. For example here is a black list Ive been cooking up:
4 Restore Balance
4 Greater Gargadon
4 As Foretold
4 Eladamri's Call
3 Bontu's Last Reckoning
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Talisman of Resilience
3 Coldsteel Heart
4 Veinfire Borderpost
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana Vess
1 Liliana, Death's Majesty
1 Bitterblossom
4 Glimmervoid
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Island
4 Tolaria West
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Defense Grid
2 Imprisoned in the Moon
2 Nature's Claim
3 Assassin's Trophy
1 Electrodominance
4 Remand
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
Brother Im telling you we can approach the list in more than one way and there is enough breathing room and different cards to work with to enable many strategies.
I like very focused strategies that nuke everything. They are typically more combo than midrange or control. They will probably lose to extirpate but honestly Im not building my deck around every single card, and if I was I definitely would not be on this list because its far too reliant on moving parts and build around cards in my experience. Any creature.deck will be more focused, consistent, and (hopefully) able to combat random hate. If I was to be worried about being a high % against every single deck in the format I prob wouldnt be playing this list because its a tad bit slow. Restore Balance is a fun build around card. I see what you mean about different things but I think you misunderstand the focus of my list, which isnt to beat every single type of list. Modern is too diverse for that. Im not planning on winning vs red deck wins, and probably not storm, and I'll take a "L" to extirpate.
I promise you, youre just wrong about brain in a jar. When your goal is to balance one single time with gargadon suspended (about all of the core of every deck I make in this archetype) this card is GAS other than the single mana cost which is only truly 'costly' because of tolaria west's 3+ brains 1. Not because brain by itself is clunky. Not only that, it helps in control matchups. I have won many games off the back of people trying to get a tiny bit of value at EOT; whoops I win at instant speed since youre tapped out.
Thoughtsieze decks can be rough, but unless they are more aggro-tilted, I can compete with them and have a close matchup. And especially if my list is tuned well. To be resilient to this I need a lot of redundancy which my decks always have, and also either a lot of tutors or a lot of 'good' card draw.
We definitely can make a midrange list that is more grindy and doesnt 'need' gargadon. That said, as long as gargadon isnt straight extirpated we can still make other type of lists work. Or have just a very small handful of win-cons outside of gargadon that play more off of balance.
Wren and six I have never been even a tiny bit scared of. I just attack their face and they die in 2 turns.
I do appreciate all the feedback. Were not improving at all if we cant raise concerns and consider things.
Please drop any lists you come up with, especially non cascade ones, rough or not and we can talk about ways to tweak them.
Early turns you just jam as much mana in as possible. Playing talisman into talisman is super easy on the manabase. In my experience this results in us having plenty of mana if we want it, AND 'ramped' mana for things like Karn or Fact or Fiction (need lots of draw to feed gargadon primarily).
I have Karn in there as 2nd wincon with Ghostly prison + Balance making it very very hard for people to attack when I start disrupting mana. Karn might be better suited as another PW, but does have the small added bonus of both fetching a combo piece (brain from SB) AND making attackers if needs be later in the game.
This list also shows how easy it should be to find the colors you need using signets/talismans/artifact mana. Even with mox being gone.
So compared to my old lists its going to a bit slower, but more interactive by a tiny bit.
Trinisphere
Blood Moon
Ghostly Prison (and similar cards)
Planeswalkers
Signets/Talismans/Artifact mana
Bontu's Last Reckoning
BTW guys, while Mox Opal was a phenomenal card for us; we can still just jam signets/talismans/borderposts(my least fav)/artifact mana (pentad prism). They still do double duty with feeding gargadon, and staying around post balance. And let you play less lands total but still be very consistent with mana, even being able to breathe a LOT more with your nonbasic lands. They also enable any color combinations with relative ease.
Youre right about playing vs a really bad hate card like extirpate. Take our balance or our gargadon and its easy match, or at least should be.
Also, for a black list; bitterblossom survives balance, chump blockers for days, and feeds gargadon every turn. Interesting at least.
Heres an example of what Im talking about with artifact mana:
4 Restore Balance
3 Brain in a Jar
4 As Foretold
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Selesnya Signet
2 Talisman of Curiosity
2 Talisman of Impulse
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Eladamri's Call
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Glimmervoid
4 Tolaria West
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Brain in a Jar (Karn Fetches this)
4 Remand
3 Venarian Glimmer
2 Nature's Claim
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Electrodominance