Fully agreed. I think the intent was so that former gutter members can still view it. I dont think the intent was to air its contents in shame. If it was, it should be reconsidered.
That is exactly the staffs intention though, they want to make it available to all non-gutter members that apply for the nsfw section, I'm glad now you can see the staff are being unreasonable about this, now hopefully you will end up seeing how this whole thing is unreasonable over time.
Betcha that thread has been around long before they decided to clean up MTGS and nobody put any thought to it until others conveniently pointed it out in attempt to slam the staff. I'd also bet that they'd assume since its a mod lounge, you wouldn't have any business with whats in there regardless. Every forums mod lounge has threads about problematic users. And as an admin on my site, I would never ever post them openly for the non-staff users to see, no matter how many demands you made.
They binned the thread - the issue now resolved - stop being bitter.
You could say they binned it, but from my point of view it seems more like they are hiding whilst being completely fine with airing the gutters dirty laundry, I apologise for any bitterness you sense from this post but I think I and most other people arguing here have a reason to be bitter, the staff keep trying to kill the gutter every 3 months for very trivial and stupid reasons and frankly we are tired of constantly trying to defend ourselves every time a new admin comes in and decided he wants to be a misguided beacon of justice and close the gutter once and for all, you would have thought after the last 2 or 3 times that everything had been covered but history just keeps repeating itself for little to no reason (other than old vendettas, but that remains to be seen). So sorry for being bitter, we are just tired.
The Gutter is a hidden group of subforums that is essentially unmoderated in the conventional sense. Infractions and the like have never been employed in the Gutter, although for a time an active infraction would preclude a user from participating in the subforum. Notorious for its culture of hazing and attracting members with rocky relationships with the staff, the Gutter historically served as a place where watchdog discussions relating to staff conduct could be had, in addition to its role as an exclusive-membership sandbox.
This is not really entirely true, plenty of gutter members have perfectly good relationships with most members of the staff, you make it sound like the gutter is a staff hate group when really it is just certain members of the staff that cop flak from gutter members who think they are doing a bad job at moderating.
Also the claim that it is unmoderated is also only half true a pretty misleading (as seen in a few posts in this thread not understanding that there is gutter moderators). Sure the gutter is not moderated in the conventional sense in that it conforms to a different set of rules and the moderators act accordingly, if there was a problem with this then the staff should have brought it up. If the staff weren't happy with the way it was being moderated I don't see why nothing was said, if there was something wrong with the way the gutter was being moderated there was always the option to add or remove moderators until they were to the mods and gutters mutual liking, but there was no compromise offered, not even any discussion regarding this.
First is the issue of bullying. The Gutter has an entrenched culture of attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members. Although “what happens in the Gutter stays in the Gutter,” any member of Salvation is fair game for a roasting within, whether they are a member of the subforum or not. MTGSalvation as a community aims to support a culture of tolerance, and the hostile culture of the Gutter is in direct opposition to this goal. While this has been an ongoing concern of the staff, certain events of the past months have brought this to the fore. First was an incident discussed extensively here in Community Issues and in the Moderator Lounge, namely that we were slow to act when a potentially unstable member was getting verbally harassed. The staff considers this a very serious issue and we vowed to address it. As we worked to prevent a similar event from happening in the future, we became acutely aware of how closely tied cyberbullying has been to various suicides and school shootings. We then realized that the reality is that in most cases the repercussions of that negative culture will not be visible to us. We cannot not overlook the danger that the Gutter poses to people in real life. While there is no way to quantify the impact this has on a user, by allowing it a place to exist, the staff feel responsible for it.
The idea that someone joined the gutter with no idea what they were getting in to is absurd, people that find the gutter know what they are doing and since it is hidden from the get go newer members aren't exposed to this so called "attacking and hazing". It is the choice of someone who wants to join the gutter whether or not they are exposed to hazing, if they came in expecting something else after reading the multiple stickies in the gutter regarding the gutter culture and how you are meant to conduct yourself then I don't see how the gutter is to blame, it's the same as someone coming on to the forum and spamming without reading the forum rules about spamming, same situation different part of the forum.
Claiming the the gutter will cause people to commit suicide due to cyber bullying is a gross overstatement, this just seems like a lack luster excuse to close down the gutter because you think maybe someone at some time in the future may be offended by what someone says in a hidden satire forum and this will cause them to commit suicide or shoot up a school because they have been so badly cyber bullied by this group of outlaws, do you not understand how insane that sounds? Not to mention the fact this person would have to find the gutter and actively seek out people to haze them at this point it is more a product of the persons psychological state than having any baring on the gutter. What you are basically saying with this like is basically a scare campaign.
Second, while the problems associated with the gutter have risen to the forefront, the benefits of the subforum have diminished. With the formation of the Staff Inbox, the Ban Appeal Subforum, the implementation of a Staff Code of Conduct and a general push for increased professionalism from staff, the Gutter's role as a place for watchdog discussions has been marginalized. At the same time, Gutter members at all levels have shown that they will not report fellow gutter members for suspension evasion and the like, while attacking whichever senior staff member is chosen to watch over the subforum. This creates a situation contributing to staff burnout and increased rule-breaking rather than the beneficial role that Gutter members would previously claim. The staff is thus left in an uncomfortable position where we cannot properly monitor the forum without drawing extreme levels of hostility.
Even if you have all these fancy new things in place that doesn't suddenly invalidate a forum, the gutter still has uses and even if they are not as prevalent the gutter clearly isn't hurting anybody and hasn't done anything drama related in recent months to warrant this sudden closure.
The part highlighted in bold is just completely untrue and I can't believe the staff is still going on about this despite the fact that is has been disproven multiple times. Multiple people in the gutter said that mike hunt was a kcw gimmick and it was pretty clear that it was, the staff were the people at fault here for not listening to gutter members obviously saying that it was kcw, if you were actively around at the time of the kcw gimmick drama you should already know this viperesque and I can only assume that you are being fed these lies by biased anti gutter moderators.
Second part of the bolded section, the gutter has never directly targeted any senior staff member that has been looking over the subforum, can you provide any actual examples of this? sure maybe there was light hearted insults thrown at them but that is the same for every gutter member, in fact a lot of the moderators/admins, seds and mikeyG for example were even treated as part of the gutter for extended periods as they watched of the subforum, pretty much any senior staff member that has taken it upon themselves to watch the forum (with the exception of annorax maybe) has been pretty well accepted in the gutter. I don't know what has happened in recent times but it seems at some point the staff decided to hand over the reigns of control to 3 non mods to look after the sub forum and no senior member has been a watcher of the forum since, this is another example of the mods not communicating with the gutter about things they didn't like.
(apologies in advance for any misspelling or mistakes in this post, it is 5 degrees in aus right now and my hands are literally half frozen.)
Those two threads have been binned. I don't understand why you think the staff social chat thread should be as well.
As far as I could tell there was talk that some of the user bashing was going on in the GRRRR thread but I will admit that I am not well informed about this so if there is no user bashing in the GRRRR thread that I am quite happy to remove that from my argument.
This thread gained 8 pages on 60ppp whilst I was sleeping and half way through reading I decided to stop multi quoting posts since most of them became irrelevant as the thread progressed and I forgot most of what I was going to say about the quoted posts so I'm going to give it a try.
I'm for consistency. If the gutter is being closed, then the mod cave insult threads should be closed. If the gutter is opened, so should the mod cave.
If the gutter is going to to be archived and made public, then in the interest of fairness the "User X is a ****ing idiot thread", "The post amusing pm's thread" and "GRRRRR" should all also be archived in the same fashion, if not it is just further proof of unfair standards and invalidates a few of viperesques reasons from the first post.
Agreed. Just delete it. No need for airing drama, hurt feelings from users involved or animosity toward others. You don't need to keep it for "historical record of shady things we used to do, so that in the future we can quote from it and dump it on somebody's head"
This is exactly what will happen if the gutter is made public, but because they are moderators and admins you are creating a double standard where they are allowed to bash people behind close doors but when the gutter does it, it gets close and it's dirty laundry aired.
I am going to hold off on the main argument till I get some sleep an re-read this but the idea that the gutter is being released to the public in an attempt to reduce drama and the effects of cyber bullying is ****ing hilarious, I mean how does that solve anything? either way this goes the gutter should never be made public to non-members. Absolutely insane.
Due to recent IRL events and general lack of motivation to visit this site at all I think it is time I moved to the sometimes or even just called it quits, I know this post seems really rich after recent events but I think I owe it to you guys to tell you what's up.
Unfortunately the cave where I would have further elaborated was deleted so I guess you will just have to take my word for it.
Yeah definitely the best Marvel movie, but the way the movie handled all of the different personalities was just awesome. I also loved how fluid the fight sequences were, shifting from hero to hero perfectly.
In terms of a popcorn action fest of a hero movie, The Avengers takes the cake. If you want more of a plot driven superhero film, Nolan's Batman films are really good as well.
Have to agree with the best action sequences, through the entire last fight part of the movie I couldn't take my eyes of the screen since it was just so intense. The only problem was I saw it in 3D and watching the fast paced scenes in 3D tends to screw with your eyes quite a lot.
I would rate it right up there with the nolan batman movies for sure.
Edit...Brian you wanna pick a fight, bring it out in the open.
Last and final edit...Brian has succeeded in pushing everyone out that doesn't follow him like a sheep. I love this clan and truely believed it was a democracy where everyone had a voice. I've found that if you don't see things the way Brian wants you to see them he'll pester you through pm and instant messaging outlets with incoherent bs and name calling until you just give up. I'm to old for this high school crap to sit and deal with a hissy fit baby that didn't get everything his way...even though he got everything he was looking for in the vote.
DUX...you were wrong...it isn't/wasn't over until he wins. Apparently Brian was looking for more. Now you got it.
Shame i gotta go again guys or Brian is just going to keep bothering me. I don't need it.
=[
I have no idea what happened but I am sad to see you go jj.
You heard they sell 40oz malt liquor at Dan Murphy's now TFO?
i didn't know that but it's not surprising, dan murphy's have pretty much everything ever and they are also cheap as **** compared to the coles/woolworths owned ones, it is where i have got 90% of my mixers and spirits from
Really? Then why the double post ;D I just see quantity here. I'll keep looking for quality, even if it's hard to see~
double posting is fine here, it's not like i go out spamming the main forum with sub par posts, besides posts don't even count here so your point is invalid.
...Yeah, I'm going to agree with Zephy here. Wait until this thread gets to 1000 posts, then we'll see. For now though, I'm going to dump lava into this thread to scare people away.
That is exactly the staffs intention though, they want to make it available to all non-gutter members that apply for the nsfw section, I'm glad now you can see the staff are being unreasonable about this, now hopefully you will end up seeing how this whole thing is unreasonable over time.
EDIT:
You could say they binned it, but from my point of view it seems more like they are hiding whilst being completely fine with airing the gutters dirty laundry, I apologise for any bitterness you sense from this post but I think I and most other people arguing here have a reason to be bitter, the staff keep trying to kill the gutter every 3 months for very trivial and stupid reasons and frankly we are tired of constantly trying to defend ourselves every time a new admin comes in and decided he wants to be a misguided beacon of justice and close the gutter once and for all, you would have thought after the last 2 or 3 times that everything had been covered but history just keeps repeating itself for little to no reason (other than old vendettas, but that remains to be seen). So sorry for being bitter, we are just tired.
This is not really entirely true, plenty of gutter members have perfectly good relationships with most members of the staff, you make it sound like the gutter is a staff hate group when really it is just certain members of the staff that cop flak from gutter members who think they are doing a bad job at moderating.
Also the claim that it is unmoderated is also only half true a pretty misleading (as seen in a few posts in this thread not understanding that there is gutter moderators). Sure the gutter is not moderated in the conventional sense in that it conforms to a different set of rules and the moderators act accordingly, if there was a problem with this then the staff should have brought it up. If the staff weren't happy with the way it was being moderated I don't see why nothing was said, if there was something wrong with the way the gutter was being moderated there was always the option to add or remove moderators until they were to the mods and gutters mutual liking, but there was no compromise offered, not even any discussion regarding this.
The idea that someone joined the gutter with no idea what they were getting in to is absurd, people that find the gutter know what they are doing and since it is hidden from the get go newer members aren't exposed to this so called "attacking and hazing". It is the choice of someone who wants to join the gutter whether or not they are exposed to hazing, if they came in expecting something else after reading the multiple stickies in the gutter regarding the gutter culture and how you are meant to conduct yourself then I don't see how the gutter is to blame, it's the same as someone coming on to the forum and spamming without reading the forum rules about spamming, same situation different part of the forum.
Claiming the the gutter will cause people to commit suicide due to cyber bullying is a gross overstatement, this just seems like a lack luster excuse to close down the gutter because you think maybe someone at some time in the future may be offended by what someone says in a hidden satire forum and this will cause them to commit suicide or shoot up a school because they have been so badly cyber bullied by this group of outlaws, do you not understand how insane that sounds? Not to mention the fact this person would have to find the gutter and actively seek out people to haze them at this point it is more a product of the persons psychological state than having any baring on the gutter. What you are basically saying with this like is basically a scare campaign.
Even if you have all these fancy new things in place that doesn't suddenly invalidate a forum, the gutter still has uses and even if they are not as prevalent the gutter clearly isn't hurting anybody and hasn't done anything drama related in recent months to warrant this sudden closure.
The part highlighted in bold is just completely untrue and I can't believe the staff is still going on about this despite the fact that is has been disproven multiple times. Multiple people in the gutter said that mike hunt was a kcw gimmick and it was pretty clear that it was, the staff were the people at fault here for not listening to gutter members obviously saying that it was kcw, if you were actively around at the time of the kcw gimmick drama you should already know this viperesque and I can only assume that you are being fed these lies by biased anti gutter moderators.
Second part of the bolded section, the gutter has never directly targeted any senior staff member that has been looking over the subforum, can you provide any actual examples of this? sure maybe there was light hearted insults thrown at them but that is the same for every gutter member, in fact a lot of the moderators/admins, seds and mikeyG for example were even treated as part of the gutter for extended periods as they watched of the subforum, pretty much any senior staff member that has taken it upon themselves to watch the forum (with the exception of annorax maybe) has been pretty well accepted in the gutter. I don't know what has happened in recent times but it seems at some point the staff decided to hand over the reigns of control to 3 non mods to look after the sub forum and no senior member has been a watcher of the forum since, this is another example of the mods not communicating with the gutter about things they didn't like.
(apologies in advance for any misspelling or mistakes in this post, it is 5 degrees in aus right now and my hands are literally half frozen.)
As far as I could tell there was talk that some of the user bashing was going on in the GRRRR thread but I will admit that I am not well informed about this so if there is no user bashing in the GRRRR thread that I am quite happy to remove that from my argument.
If the gutter is going to to be archived and made public, then in the interest of fairness the "User X is a ****ing idiot thread", "The post amusing pm's thread" and "GRRRRR" should all also be archived in the same fashion, if not it is just further proof of unfair standards and invalidates a few of viperesques reasons from the first post.
This is exactly what will happen if the gutter is made public, but because they are moderators and admins you are creating a double standard where they are allowed to bash people behind close doors but when the gutter does it, it gets close and it's dirty laundry aired.
Unfortunately the cave where I would have further elaborated was deleted so I guess you will just have to take my word for it.
It's been good called.
Have to agree with the best action sequences, through the entire last fight part of the movie I couldn't take my eyes of the screen since it was just so intense. The only problem was I saw it in 3D and watching the fast paced scenes in 3D tends to screw with your eyes quite a lot.
I would rate it right up there with the nolan batman movies for sure.
=[
I have no idea what happened but I am sad to see you go jj.
i didn't know that but it's not surprising, dan murphy's have pretty much everything ever and they are also cheap as **** compared to the coles/woolworths owned ones, it is where i have got 90% of my mixers and spirits from
double posting is fine here, it's not like i go out spamming the main forum with sub par posts, besides posts don't even count here so your point is invalid.
please stop posting in my thread.
quality not quantity
i'm sry it's against my religion to associate with anyone with more that 10 posts per day
thanks, it is good for seeing the badies in hd before i shoot them
i am good at the team fortress of 2, really playing pub with a medic on me is kind of cheating but who am i to refuse a medic
the fact that you watch tipsybartender just makes me love you even more manasjapples
i suppose i better post relevant screenshots so here is my quote from my clan thread for people to enjoy