- teefo
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22
Brandon posted a message on The Gloves Are Coming OffI'd like to apologize to a number of people.Posted in: Community Discussion
To Azrael. I'm sorry it's taken me this long to post something.
To Nai. I tried to follow your advice, and I'm sorry that I failed.
To Sene and Galspanic. I've talked to you two more than all the other senior staff combined, and I have never failed to be impressed by the way you conduct yourselves. I'm sorry for disappointing you as I suspect this post will.
To all of my fellow staff members. I'm sorry for the rift between us that this will inevitably cause.
To Gaea's Regent, Talore, and ( N_S ). I told all of you that I would try my best to do something, and I fear this post will be the end of any hope of accomplishing that goal. I'm sorry for abandoning that goal.
To anyone who reads this and believes that it is petty, vindictive, grudge-motivated, cowardly, childish, or any of the other dozens of terrible things that I've seen rightly used to describe posts of this nature. I'm sorry for being a trope.
To anyone who is shocked by this post, who thought better of me, or who now thinks less of me. I'm sorry for letting you down.
Most importantly, to rianalnn. I find you intelligent, witty, and unique. I enjoy learning more about you in our time chatting. I admire you for amount of time and effort youv'e put into improving this site in a variety of ways. I respect you for speaking with me privately when I was a new staff member who took issue with your tone, and I greatly appreciated the way in which you handled that. I love your artwork and your talent, and I looked forward to owning some of your pieces. In short, I like you very much as a person, and I have nothing personal, no ill will, no grudge, no ax to grind. I truly and honestly wish you only the best. For all of those reasons, I'm sorry for this post.
I do not believe rianalnn should be an administrator.
I do not and have never believed that rianalnn is "corrupt", nor will you find any statements to that effect. I don't have evidence of gross misconduct or dictatorship. I believe rianalnn has always wanted and continues to want what he believes is best for the site, and I believe he views those in opposition to his beliefs as opponents who are attempting to damage the site -- whether that view is conscious or not. I do not believe he is evil, but I do sincerely believe that his demeanor and methods of leadership are counter-productive and unfit for an administrator.
Several weeks ago (June 28), I posted the following:
"Ria and I had several run-ins shortly after I joined the staff, all revolving around what I believed to be a dismissive / condescending tone in dealing with me in public staff discussions. We had a private discussion after the "last" one, and we reached a mutual understanding that they were born out of misunderstandings and poor phrasings. I believe Ria means well and legitimately wants what's best for this site. I also believe that Ria is not a "people person", and that his phrasings are prone to misinterpretation as being intentionally flippant and disrespectful."
These points are still true. I don't believe rianalnn ever sets out to be mean or hurtful, but disagreeing with him is a chore at best. He can be flippant, arrogant, dismissive, and condescending if he believes he is right and you are wrong. It is exhausting to participate in a disagreement with him, and his attitude makes time in the moderator lounge a stinging, biting chore.
I greatly dislike working with or for rianalnn. I hate attempting to discuss issues with him. I am loathe to join in discusssions when I know my opinion will be different from his. Rianalnn's leadership makes it more difficult for me to do my job; his style and his actions are alienating and discouraging.
I can't provide much "evidence", as I do not wish to violate the Staff Code of Conduct by quoting mod loung posts, nor do I wish to violate others' trust in me by quoting them without permission. What I can provide is a summary of two recent exchanges with rianalnn that I believe demosntrate the type of attitude I have so far described. For those of you who view this as insufficient or as "just another troll", I apologize in advance for my failures. I'm doing the best I can within the bounds of what I feel comfortable and justified doing.
Roughly one week ago, I expressed strong disagreement with a particular controversial staff action. I made an argument that attempted to disprove the validity of that action by drawing a parallel with a much earlier, very similar action that was handled in a completely different way. I developed this argument over more than a dozen posts, responding to comments and criticisms by various staff members and carefully laying out each piece of logic that led to my conclusion; I will allow my vanity and bias to show by stating that I believe I had constructed a sound if somewhat complex argument. Rianalnn's response to my argument was (paraphased): "I don't see the parallel, so let's agree to disagree.". I then asked rianalnn if, before summarily concluding the discussion, he would at least explain to me why he didn't see the parallel or what part of my argument he disagreed with. He flat-out refused to do so. When I expressed disappointment over his refussal to continue the discussion, he accused me trying to make things personal and directed me to contact other senior staff members. It's worth noting that at the time of this exchange, viperesque was absent due to technical issues, and Sene's opinion was already known to be more-or-less in line with mine, so without belitting the global moderators, I believe it's no exaggeration to say that rianalnn's opinion was the most important one to attempt to sway, and he refused to engage in dialogue. Edit: rianalnn has kindly and respectfully posted the actual exchange that I describe here, so I encourage anyone reading to view the official version and draw his/her own conclusions.
More recently, rianalnn brought a new issue before the staff and asked for input about how to handle it. He did not explicitly provide his opinion on the way to handle the situation, but openly asked for staff input. I found this encouraging and was quite happy to see many staff members quickly chime in. By my count, 14 staff members expressed their opinions that the situation should be handled with "Option A". It then became clear that rianalnn favored "Option B". Then began a long series of back-and-forth posts in which rianalnn attempted to dismiss the concerns and opinions of those who supported "Option A", first by chalking them up to "confusion" and then -- once it was made clear that people were not confused -- by delcaring them merely "false perceptions". At no point in the various exchanges did rianalnn acknowledge any validity in the concerns and opinions the disagreeing staff members were expressing. Edit: Sene and rianalnn have kindly and respectfully posted the full exchange that I tried to summarize. Please view the official version and draw your own conclusions.
Edit in response to those who have read the full exchanges:I apologize to anyone who believes that I misrepresented or misled him or her with my original post. I tried my best to describe the situations as I understood them, but it's clear that my efforts fell short. I sincerely hope that I haven't done anything to hamper ongoing discussion or further progress.
To TL;DR the things that I've said so far: I believe rianalnn is a poor leader, and I find it more difficult and less enjoyable to do this job while working with him. The most obvious solution to the situation, and the suggestion that many people have already raised in this thread, is for me to quit. That is certainly an option, and I'll admit that I've considered it more than once, and have gone so far as to type up full posts -- much as I've done with this one -- before ultimately backing out. I enjoy being a moderator; I like doing this job. I like helping out in the only forum that I routinely post in, and I let my arrogance show, I believe I have even done a bit of good by helping out some members who have come forward with problems. In short, I don't want to quit/resign.
I'm aware that's selfish of me. To be honest, I've struggled for a few days with whether or not to post this. At the end of the day, all of my complaints and issues boil down to the fact that I dislike working with a person and believe that his personality and approach make him difficult and unpleasant to work for. Does that really translate to "he shouldn't be an administrator"? I've seen many good, well-written posts by members that I respect who have declared that this whole thread, this whole "thing" is nothing more than a few overblown misunderstandings by people who can't let go of a grudge. I know that many people will dismiss my points as a mere petty grudge that I've cowardly decided to air in public rather than resolve privately, and I'm struggling with whether or not I believe that about myself. The complaints that I've seen from others and the private encouragement that I'm not alone in these feelings have been enough to lead me to post here, but I'm not ruling out the possibility that I'm the one who's wrong in this exchange.
Ultimately, I want what's best for the site, whatever that may be. -
28
Azrael posted a message on The Gloves Are Coming OffWhen I stepped down from the staff six months ago, I did so with a reasonable degree of confidence that the site was in good hands. That the reforms that we had fought for would endure, and that the site would remain in the hands of high-level leadership that cared for the concerns of the userbase and looked out for them above all else.Posted in: Community Discussion
I don't take these words lightly, but after long and careful thought my mind has been forcibly changed. I've been speaking privately to various contacts among the staff, and have repeatedly heard disturbing reports, undisclosed until now. Incidents that were highly inappropriate - disgusting from someone in a position of power. But because my experiences with Rianalnn have in most instances shown him to be someone who has a number of strong, redeeming qualities, I've been inclined to overlook them (I hoped) isolated incidents, and to defend him against a long series of charges, many of which were in fact overblown.
When I left the staff, I left with the hope that the record of reform, dialogue, transparency, and striving for change for the better that I built my administration upon always leave the door open a crack, if I ever decided I could justify a return despite the restraints of my real life schedule. I thought that if things ever got really bad again, like the old days, the door would still be open to my coming back to help fix things and right the ship. That we would never again have to worry about admins on MTGS running wild, and ignoring the userbase.
I was wrong. I am no longer welcome. Apparently, I am no longer reliable, due to a trumped-up charge.
To put it another way, Rianalnn has made it undeniably clear that he wants to avoid shifting the balance of power in the admin ranks out from under his control, and he is prepared to use the thinnest of pretexts to maintain his grip.
To the best of my ability, given the restraints of potential retaliation against key witnesses, I intend to make the case for Rianalnn's resignation.
Conduct Unbefitting a Leadership Position
Until I secure permission from those directly affected, or they volunteer the information themselves, this section of my post will be deliberately sparse on direct quotes. I have two specific examples on record, but I would be surprised if the abuses stopped at only two, given that I've barely scratched the surface of the members on staff. But given what I've already heard, I don't want to force any one who is afraid to face Rianalnn in a public confrontation into the open, where he could retaliate against them. I think bringing out the full truth is more important than that, but I'll leave that to their discretion.
A basic tenet of good leadership is that you lead by example, maintain civility and professionalism, and use compassion in dealing with your subordinates.
Rianalnn's record in dealing with subordinates is, by all reports, abysmal. I have reports that he has repeatedly flown into a rage and directed profanity at staff members who disagreed with him, or been insulting and dismissive. That tendency, though not the profanity, can be seen in many of his publicly viewable posts, and I intend to compile them, though it will take considerable time. Numerous staff members have either resigned or taken demotions as a result of an inability to stand the way that he has treated him. This from an administrator who has made a "family-friendly" environment a hallmark of his policies.
It goes beyond political incompetency. Rianalnn habitually denigrates others, while holding the premier leadership position in an organization that is supposed to be dedicated to serving the userbase.
Silver Sihhe: on why this is essential for effective leadership.
Twisting the Truth
I don't believe that Rian intentionally sets out to lie to others on a habitual basis. I think the problem is much worse than that. Rian is able to convince himself that the world is not as it is, but how he wishes it to be. Rian deceives himself, and because of that, pushes absolutely counter-factual ideas with absolute confidence and assurance.
Much ado has been made behind closed doors about the recent suspensions of Jonnyjonski, Kijin, and ( N_S ). Repeatedly, comments that were borderline infractable were painted in the harshest possible light. A comment about Rian's location was painted as a death threat. An analogy about the similarity between generalizations and racist thinking was construed as trolling. Posting an amusing AIM chat was construed as posting "on behalf of" a banned member.
Or take the example of his self-serving reconstruction of the previous gutter debacle:
Quote from Rianalnn »
I just want to draw attention the double-standard here. The prior administration didn't see fit to leave much, & in most cases, any paperwork about much of anything, & the office I walked in to was more or less abandoned.
*snip*
I feel you when you say that the deal with the last admins has gone sour, but I also can't agree to honour anything they set out, when they neither consulted anyone else on staff nor left much evidence for the process or intent.
Quote from Azrael »
My perspective on this decision is that the decision-making process (what you refer to as after-the-fact) was very well documented. And that was the case because it took place within CI and at regular moderator level, due to a staff-led revolt in the "leadership" thread I started at the time, which reached 5-6 pages in size, and also in the gutter closure discussion thread, of a similar size. That thread included numerous participants at the lower levels who were not so much consulted in creating this decision, as much as they were successfully attempting to forcibly ram this decision down admin's throat. Off the top of my head, the moderators attempting to reverse that course included myself, yourself, Nai, Nightarcher, Manders, Blinking Spirit, Clock King, Kijin, and at least four other moderators.
In sum, I feel that the previous administration's decision was very much a product of the entire staff, and the arguments used to produce that decision were exhaustively documented in not only CI but in two separate moderator lounge threads.
Quote from Rianalnn »
Despite all of us chiming in, there was still barely any administrative input.
For example, the day before the CI post, when told the admins were drafting 'something', I asked this in the GL; A day later, post CI announcment.
Quote from Azrael »
*nods* I recall, having reviewed the admin-level discussion at the time with considerable interest myself. But my argument is that that underscores the point.
This decision didn't originate with just admin. The idea that the gutterites should be treated as individuals was an idea that originated in that public CI thread, and was championed in the lounge by us underlings, and was subsequently adopted as a result of that public and staff pressure.
It wasn't just an admin fiat that they formulated internally. It was a hard-won consensus arrived at by a confluence of userbase pushing, staff revolt, and admin deference to the groundswell of outrage and activism.
And after all that effort by so many of us, staff, normal users, and gutter alike, that accord has been casually disregarded.
Or at least, we came awfully close.
Unilateral Decision-Making
Not long after Rianalnn was promoted to admin, he began pushing two separate policies on a unilateral basis. The creation of the speakeasy, and the punishment of "slurs" being used by staff within the gutter. Rianalnn was successfully overruled as to the latter, while the former has proven to be a worthwhile idea - but the example is useful as a demonstration of his mentality.
Rianalnn is a fan of getting his way. He is prepared to listen to others - but if he sees a chance to push his own agenda without running into serious opposition, he will seize it in an instant.
When I was on board, we had a healthy and friendly relationship - but I was able to hold him in check. And I encouraged other staff members to continue speaking their minds and act as a counterbalance, as I left. Instead, an exodus ensued. Kraj, who knew Rian far better than the rest of us, jumped ship as soon as I left.Then Madding. NS. Misclick. Gaea's Regent. CK. Kijin. One by one, the number of voices able to act as counterbalances dwindled, while other moderators were promoted up the chain - but not through public moderator apps. By private selection and recommendation.
And for the ultimate example of unilateral decision-making, one need look no further than the latest gutter debacle. No regular moderators were consulted - only the global and admin levels - few of whom have meaningfully taken stands against Rianalnn in the past. No users were consulted - not even the gutter. And the hard-fought decision of the previous admins, not more than six months old? Disregarded. Because the userbase's opinion doesn't ultimately matter much to Rian. Rian getting his own way matters to Rian.
Alternate view.
Political Problems
Beyond those problems, Rian's most obvious problem is failing to understand and empathize with people. He has repeatedly failed to engage in negotiations, except when forced to. His ear is deaf when it comes to diplomatic tone, and he would much prefer to write off those who disagree with him as irrational enemies, than to engage with them. I won't belabor the point here unless requested, as I don't believe that even Rian's consistent supporters would argue this point. Sufficed to say, this skill set is one of the essential abilities for an admin, and Rianalnn's lack of it has been all too evident in the current crisis.
Continuing in a second post.
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9
Manders posted a message on The Gloves Are Coming OffI, too, have been targeted by rianalnn as described in Azrael's post.Posted in: Community Discussion
Several months ago, I was told on AIM to "go piss up a rope." I went to find the chat log, but apparently I didn't set my AIM to save chat logs until after that.
Ria's welcome to correct me, but I believe this is what happened:
I went to him regarding the Sex thread I had gotten started in the Speakeasy. I said something that wasn't hostile, but he interpreted it as such and said the above quote. I was highly offended, much more bickering occurred, and it actually led to an enormous fight between r_0 and myself that night. It was terrible.
More recently, there was this:
Quote from MandersHex »Quote from rianalnn »
I'm on holiday, dude. Why you getting in my face?Quote from MandersHex »Quote from rianalnn »
You think that's ok?Quote from MandersHex »Quote from rianalnn »Hey Hex.
I'm guessing you missed the post where N_S said we fired Annorax because it was your turn to be the n-----?
No, I saw that. So, why did you send this PM? And why did you send a PM rather than post this in the relevant thread?
I don't care what they think, ria. Aside from the fact that, if I'm undertanding this compromise correctly, no one will be the ****** now.
Now, would you please kindly answer my questions?
How on Earth is answering your question and asking my own "in your face"?
Also, being on holiday doesn't answer my question. In fact, it raises another. Why send the PM in the first place?
I just don't get it.
He didn't actually respond to my question until I brought it up again in the thread in question in the mod lounge, which means I can't show you what he said.
I ask you all here: is there any evidence of me "getting in his face" in my PMs?
For the record, I asked him those questions because this read as him trying to pit me against the Gutter and get me back on the anti-Gutter side. Regardless of his intentions, I feel this PM and the AIM instance that I have are very unbecoming of an Admin. I also feel that this shows that ria cannot remove his emotion from the site and it is hindering his ability to perform satisfactorily. I agree that it will be better if ria steps down as Admin, or at least restricts himself to the technical side of being an Admin.
I also encourage any Mods who feel the same way or have had similar situations with ria to speak up. Now is the time to lay it all on the table and end this entire debate once and for all. -
20
Azrael posted a message on The Gloves Are Coming OffThe Final Power PlayPosted in: Community Discussion
Until several hours ago, I still believed that there was hope to change the balance of power on the site. I believed that although Rian had demonstrated a consistent series of problems, that he was a person who continually strived to better himself, and was prepared to listen to criticism, and who trusted me to work alongside him.
He knew my record. He was not the most ardent supporter of the reforms we pushed through, but he had been on my side, and he appreciated what we had been able to do for the site during that brief span of time. I did not anticipate any major hurdles to coming back on board and helping him navigate the current crisis.
I opened negotiations on 6-27.
Quote from Azrael »First off, in reference to the compromise thread:
Quote from viperesqueIt's been discussed a lot in other threads, but a dedicated thread for discussing a possible compromise has now been opened in the Mod Lounge. Whatever the results of this thread are, we will take them seriously.
Quote from fnordWouldn't it make more sense to discuss a compromise in a place where both sides can read/post?
That makes an awful lot of sense, to me.
Why exactly does this need to be private?
Ordinarily, a compromise isn't taken to mean one side mulling over their position in private and altering it without any dialogue between the two parties. Again, that's dictating terms, not negotiating.
Quote from rianalnn »Quote from Azrael »Quote from rianalnn »Quote from Azrael »http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8604385&postcount=1569
I'd love to talk with you Az, but not as part of a roadshow.
Which lounge is private enough for your tastes?
PMs are fine.
I honestly believe you coming on staff at this point is only going to crush any credibility we have (left). This senior team is only just getting its traction. You swooping in to 'solve' something & then flying away again destroys any confidence that we might be competent adults, in the userbase, in the staff, in ourselves.
I don't think that's what you need to worry about. We both know that you care about this site just as much or more than me. The users can't always tell that by the way you interact with them, but I guess I'm enough of a ham that they pick up on that vibe from me.
The politics work out well for you. Giving people what they want brings them over to your side - simple enough. At the moment, the users seem to be pulled towards having someone that they have always trusted at the helm. If the staff concurs with that, you look reasonable, you score points, you seem to be on their side. Maybe someone that they can trust, after all. And when I continue to support you, in turn, my own credibility will give yours a boost. This should help restore confidence, not lose it.
Quote from Rian »
You have to know there is a lot more going on than what the CI thread can show.
I know. And from the sounds of it, it sounds like a royal, chaotic mess. I ought to be able to help stabilize things, but I'm largely crippled from the outside.
There are ways to make this go so much smoother than it is. Holding people at arm's length this way is alienating them, pure and simple. I gave the same advice to the past admin: if you show that you don't trust your userbase, your userbase is not going to trust you.
All this secrecy and refusal to engage is just killing you.
Quote from Rianalnn »
You have to understand how hard it is coming here & serving the community when there is a whole subforum dedicated to making my life miserable "oh it's just for fun" – I get that that reason is sketchy because of personal conflict of interest, but I will do anything reasonable within my power to see that no other user has the same experience on this website that I have been continually subjected to since I started trying to run go-between between the staff & the Gutter.
Your turn.
The gutter is way off in left field in terms of their depiction of you, clearly. But it's not that they're out to make their life miserable for no reason - part of the issue is that you haven't done anything to dispel the idea that you're their enemy.
When you talk to them, they can sense that you don't like them much. And that's getting reflected right back at you.
I've said my share of negative things about the gutter in this debate too, but throughout that, I've tried to emphasize that I care about them and their concerns. That they matter to me. And with nothing more complicated than that, and finding something that you feel you need to sincerely apologize for, you could easily disarm that hysterical mob on your helpdesk.
I know it's gotta be tough. But it doesn't need to be as tough as it is. Let me help you.
When Rian said he wanted to wait until after the Gutter Drama was resolved to have me back on board, in the back of my mind warning sirens began to wail. That it was a power play - a bid to drive home his own agenda and keep me from interfering. But I decided to continue taking him at his word - that he was truly concerned that my coming to the rescue would (even further) undermine confidence in the administration, already on the most tenuous of ground after the political mismanagement of the gutter announcement.
This evening, I raised the subject again as part of a lengthy AIM chat.
Azrael (12:37:52 AM): *shrugs
Azrael (12:37:55 AM): You might be surprised
*Rianaln's SN* (12:38:03 AM): I don't care to try at this point.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:38:17 AM): I've played the Help You game with Kijin & been burned, badly
*Rianaln's SN* (12:38:24 AM): N_S has far less reason to be civil to me
*Rianaln's SN* (12:38:58 AM): I mean, I appreciate where you're coming from
*Rianaln's SN* (12:39:20 AM): but I also feel like you're more idealistic than I can afford to be
*Rianaln's SN* (12:39:33 AM): I need to not burn out so Salve can benefit from the goodstuff ria does.
Azrael (12:39:40 AM): Mmm - I hear sentiments like that a lot
Azrael (12:39:53 AM): But I think an awful lot of people underrate exactly how pragmatic idealism is
Azrael (12:40:26 AM): A good dose of idealism can do a lot to smooth things over with people, and that makes dealing with them much easier
Azrael (12:40:40 AM): Something that I think our foreign policy wonks tend to forget, sometimes
Azrael (12:40:46 AM): in the USA
Azrael (12:40:59 AM): but that's a bit aside from the point
Azrael (12:41:34 AM): At any rate, I'm still happy to help out however I can
Azrael (12:41:57 AM): I've got a burning desire to see the inside of the lounge again, but I can also wait until you think the timing is right
*Rianaln's SN* (12:42:15 AM): I'll just be straight with you - you burned that bridge.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:42:23 AM): While I was the only person to voice it, in GRRR
*Rianaln's SN* (12:42:29 AM): nobody liked what happened there.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:43:04 AM): so while I think it's cool for you to continue to be a voice of reason for both parties
*Rianaln's SN* (12:43:27 AM): . . .
*Rianaln's SN* (12:43:45 AM): I don't know what to say without breaking confidence.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:44:00 AM): But, be just some user, be content with that
*Rianaln's SN* (12:44:06 AM): I guess is the easiest way to put it.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:44:35 AM): That said, of course time moves ever onward.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:44:56 AM): but again, I don't think anyone appreciates the trepidation at senior level
*Rianaln's SN* (12:45:15 AM): & what happened there was seen as a gross violation of trust
*Rianaln's SN* (12:45:24 AM): Not just by me, I said my peice.
Azrael (12:46:26 AM): First off, Rian, if I'd thought that I was violating anyone's trust, I obviously wouldn't have run off to the top thread that everyone's reading with the information
Azrael (12:46:58 AM): I don't understand how that can reasonably be interpreted as my violating anyone's trust
*Rianaln's SN* (12:47:22 AM): I get that you don't get it
Azrael (12:47:23 AM): Mod chat is not the same as the mod lounge, by a long shot
*Rianaln's SN* (12:47:30 AM): you made that clear
Azrael (12:47:47 AM): I did.
Azrael (12:48:02 AM): Well, you've made your move.
Azrael (12:48:27 AM): I assume you're not prepared to change your mind.
Azrael (12:48:33 AM): That stubbornness of yours.
Azrael (12:48:46 AM): But I hope you appreciate how stubborn I can be, as well
*Rianaln's SN* (12:49:12 AM): Again, it ain't just me Az
*Rianaln's SN* (12:49:18 AM): & if it was
*Rianaln's SN* (12:49:21 AM): I wouldn't fuss.
Azrael (12:49:25 AM): I'm aware of the composition of the global and admin lounge
Azrael (12:49:44 AM): And I think they largely take their cues from you
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:04 AM): viper doesn't.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:12 AM): Sene did, but has grown a spine
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:22 AM): Gals & I butt heads a fair bit.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:36 AM): I get the perception though.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:40 AM): I'm the loudmouth!
*Rianaln's SN* (12:51:29 AM): & I'm at peace with that, but I also know those guys will speak their mind
Azrael (12:51:56 AM): *nods
Azrael (12:53:06 AM): Well, I suppose it wouldn't for you to hear this from me here, first
Azrael (12:53:13 AM): hurt* for you
Azrael (12:53:37 AM): I'm not particularly enchanted with the direction the staff has been going since I left - I'm sure that's not entirely a surprise
Azrael (12:54:00 AM): I've heard a lot of talk from people who've had run-ins with you
Azrael (12:54:30 AM): It'd be a stretch to call it verbal abuse - but it's not the kind of language I'd expect from someone in a position of trust and authority to those working with them
Azrael (12:54:38 AM): I'm not happy about that
Azrael (12:54:51 AM): Then there's the political issues
Azrael (12:55:00 AM): Everyone agrees that could be going better
Azrael (12:55:28 AM): So I've been trying to stand aside, help things along, and trust that you'd be able to see your way to a good solution
Azrael (12:56:11 AM): But frankly, this business with GRR seems an awful lot like a power play to me
Azrael (12:56:25 AM): Just like this delaying my coming back on board until gutter-drama was resolved
Azrael (12:56:52 AM): I think the cases of so-called corruption the gutter's been making were trash
Azrael (12:57:06 AM): But I do think there are problems, that need to be addressed
Azrael (12:58:05 AM): And I expect that addressing them is going to be a long, grim, and protracted struggle at this point
Azrael (12:58:24 AM): But at the end of the day, I think the site will be the better for it
Azrael (12:58:57 AM): So that's where I stand. I wish I had something happier to say.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:59:07 AM): sorry, was skyping with my school lemme catch up
Azrael (1:00:12 AM): And idealism or no, I don't plan to pull any punches.
*Rianaln's SN* (1:00:18 AM): eh, w/e
*Rianaln's SN* (1:00:24 AM): Do what you gotta.
Azrael (1:00:40 AM): *nods
Azrael (1:00:43 AM): Regards, Rian
I will not be able to discuss the precise substance of the incident that Rian alludes to in this conversation, but there is no doubt in my mind that it is a pretext, pure and simple.
In brief, I posted in ex-mod chat, announcing that I was seeking to contact Hannes, to gauge his interest in selling the site. I had a few ideas about how to take it in a different direction. Rian then made a post.
Apparently, Rian did not intend for that post to be known to the public at this time- despite posting it in ex-mod chat, which is not exactly a secure location, to say the least.
Quote from Rianalnn »
************************** details not publicly available yet, sorry – trying to avoid speculation before we've had time to tl;dr in-depth.
Quote from Azrael »
*frown* That is some epic timing there.
At this point, I assumed that by the statement "details not publicly available yet, sorry", Rianalnn had witheld the details that he deemed to be too sensitive to release to the public. As an ex-mod, I do NOT have access to mod-lounge level information. Accordingly, I did not assume that Rian had breached mod lounge confidentiality in sharing his information with me.
As a result, I made a post sharing the limited information that I had in another thread.
Then:
Quote from Rianalnn »
I can't believe you immediately went to TBGTE with that information.
Quote from AzraelRian, I generally don't assume that as an ordinary user I'm being fed information that I should not be sharing with others, in ex-mod chat.
To the extent you were trying to avoid speculation, I assumed you'd adequately redacted the details already for posting in an area that is not staff-only.
Quote from Rian »
Or, if I wanted the general Salve populace to know, I would have made a CI thread?
Gobsmacked.
Quote from AzraelSometimes information is secret.
Other times information is premature to release. Because you don't know if it's important or worth the time to update people until you know more. So you don't bother to post it except to people who actually care about it.
#2 seemed like the obvious classification given that I don't actually have any special clearances to know anything more than anyone else just this moment, but you were still telling me.
In short, Rian, and possibly other undisclosed staff members, believe that my unwittingly reposting information that Rian inappropriately leaked to me is grounds for denying my request to reapply to the staff.
I can only conceive of a few ways of interpreting this. The most charitable is that Rianalnn is so determined to cling to his grip that he is willing to seize any pretext to maintain the current balance of power.
I feel that there are no feasible diplomatic options or solutions short of a direct and succinct statement of the problem. The only way that I see to move forward and reestablish accountability to the userbase is to proceed with a call for a vote of no confidence in Rianalnn's leadership.
I don't want to denigrate the many wonderful things that Rianalnn has accomplished for the site. The time that he has spent. The dedication he has put towards it. Rianalnn has many gifts, which he has dedicated to the site for many years. Nevertheless, Rianalnn is not suited for the position that he has been given, and if he is allowed to remain, the staff will continue to degenerate and the userbase will suffer as a result.
Rianalnn, for the good of the site, I believe you need to step down. Within the limits imposed by the forum rules, common decency, and my respect for your dedication to the site, I intend to push for that endgame with all the means at my disposal. The gloves are off.
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rianalnn posted a message on Closure of the GutterThis thread is about as off-the-rails as any I have ever seen here.Posted in: Community Discussion
What effort that has been made towards a civilized debate about the nature of the Gutter & its place as a part of the overall Salvation community has clearly been cast aside for what I can only describe as fevered mud wrestling. We left this thread open as a sign of faith, hoping some kind of understanding would be sought. Instead I see poor behavior being used as an excuse for even more poor behavior & a general lack of regard for the respect that should define any mature debate.
The staff will be undertaking a poll covering all the considered outcomes, & the Gutter membership will be asked to take the same poll. Based on those results, the administration will determine what the next step will be.
When a conclusive decision is made, the general community will be informed. - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
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