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  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Does anyone know about this paper?

    How high can it (non-arithmetic) be, in terms of growth rate?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    In some decks, there are 2 flashback cards (Spider Spawning) plus 2 Worldfires. I thought they worked as this:

    Flashback Spider Spawning, which triggers the Spellweaver Helix imprinting another Spider Spawning and a Worldfire. We manage to take Thousand-Year Storm off, then the trigger resolve to cast a Worldfire copy.
    This triggers another Spellweaver Helix imprinting another Worldfire and the life gain card (Multani's Decree). We put Thousand-Year Storm on, then the trigger resolve to cast the Multani's Decree, getting its TYS trigger.

    However, there might be a problem. When first Spellweaver Helix trigger resolve, we cast a copy of Worldfire. Does it count as "whenever a player casts a card"?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Flash causes infinite loops because the targeting of Child of Alara and the dying of it can separate.

    More detailed, suppose we have Child of Alara, Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Vedalken Orrery and its token copy on board. We cannot spend life anymore. The stack looks like:
    • Top
    • group of Smite the Monstrous-PB triggers
    • group of Smite the Monstrous-TYS triggers (0 extra life)
    • Mirrorworks trigger for Vedalken Orrery
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers (3 extra life)
    • Maybe other abilities
    Use Smite the Monstrous-PB triggers we can bounce Child of Alara, Goblin Dark-Dwellers and Vedalken Orrery to hand.

    Play Vedalken Orrery, getting its Mirrorworks trigger.
    • Top
    • Mirrorworks trigger for Vedalken Orrery
    • group of Smite the Monstrous-PB triggers
    • group of Smite the Monstrous-TYS triggers (0 extra life)
    • Mirrorworks trigger for Vedalken Orrery
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers (3 extra life)
    • Maybe other abilities
    Play Goblin Dark-Dwellers, use its ETB ability to cast Rebuild (hold Vedalken Orrery card on hand) and then Flash.

    Flash Child of Alara, getting its dying trigger.
    • Top
    • Child of Alara dying trigger
    • group of Flash-TYS triggers
    • Mirrorworks trigger for Vedalken Orrery
    • group of Smite the Monstrous-PB triggers
    • group of Smite the Monstrous-TYS triggers (0 extra life)
    • Mirrorworks trigger for Vedalken Orrery
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers (3 extra life)
    • Maybe other abilities
    Child of Alara kills the life-gain creature, giving us 3 life. There is no Vedalken Orrery on board, so we simply wait for a Mirrorworks trigger for it, which allow us to act.

    Usually the next Mirrorworks trigger for Vedalken Orrery should be at the top of "3 extra life" block. But here, since there are some space between targeting and killing Child of Alara, we meet the trigger earlier:
    • Top
    • Mirrorworks trigger for Vedalken Orrery
    • group of Smite the Monstrous-PB triggers
    • group of Smite the Monstrous-TYS triggers (0 extra life)
    • Mirrorworks trigger for Vedalken Orrery
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers (3 extra life)
    • Maybe other abilities
    Get the token Vedalken Orrery, and now we can again prepare things. And we have 3 life.
    • Top
    • group of Smite the Monstrous-PB triggers (partly consumed)
    • group of Smite the Monstrous-TYS triggers (3 extra life)
    • Mirrorworks trigger for Vedalken Orrery
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers (6 extra life)
    • Maybe other abilities
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    But there is still problem if we use the combo of Worldfire + Thousand-Year Storm.

    Generally, Thousand-Year Storm has 3 usages:
    1. Copy Tribal Unity so that we have one more layer at the top
    2. Enable us to cast-counter instant/sorcery so that we can build multiple transitions on the stack
    3. Keep the large number while Child of Alara and Worldfire wipe everything
    Consider a cast-counter of Worldfire, getting TYS trigger. One TYS trigger turns into many Worldfire copies. Even if we prepare Wormfang behemoth before Worldfire resolving, first Worldfire clean the Wormfang behemoth, then our hand come back, then second Worldfire still clean our hand. We still fail to keep our hand.

    If we simply cast a Worldfire without TYS trigger, then the card is on the stack. We cannot reuse Worldfire card to make multiple transitions on the stack.

    If we use Swarm Intelligence instead of Thousand-Year Storm, we can exactly 1 Worldfire copy, but we cannot keep large number on it and Child of Alara.

    Edit:
    Oh I didn't noticed that: Spellweaver Helix casts a copy of a card. So with absence of Thousand-Year Storm we can put 1 copy of Worldfire on stack.

    However, for the decks using 1 Worldfire plus 3 flashback sorcery cards, or 1 Worldfire plus 2 flashback sorcery cards plus Panharmonicon, Worldfire and another sorcery cast at the same time. Without Thousand-Year Storm (the requirement for only 1 Worldfire copy), there is only 1 copy of the "another sorcery".
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Okay, let me ask about a general framework (for w^4 decks) of -

    How to get permanents on field after Child of Alara and Worldfire wipe everything? And what kind of preparation should we do before them?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    In this deck,
    1. How to get Goblin Dark-Dwellers off from battlefield in hyperstage transition?
    2. How to get Moggcatcher, Strongarm Thug, Scattershot Archer, Abzan Falconer and Child of Alara onto battlefield after a Child of Alara sweeper?
    In this deck,
    1. How to get Omniscience onto battlefield after a Child of Alara sweeper?
    2. How to get Moggcatcher, Goblin Turncoat, Abzan Falconer and Child of Alara onto battlefield after a Child of Alara sweeper?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    With Flash, is it possible to remove Horobi, Death's Wail from the deck? Though we won't have the stage below the bottom hyperstage transition. (The bottom layer would be a hyperstage transition)

    To imprint a creature into Mimic Vat, we
    1. use a PB trigger to target the creature, bouncing the creature to hand
    2. wait for a use of Flash
    3. Flash this creature, imprinting into Mimic Vat
    Step 2 needs one activation of Moggcatcher. It should at least reuse Flash and Rebuild. Thus we lose all haste Metallurgeons by Rebuild.

    We cannot get 2 or more untapped haste Metallurgeons? If so, failed.

    Okay, we don't have Mimic Vat AND the haste Metallurgeon due to Rebuild, whatever order of it and Flash.
    Very bad idea.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    About the choice of the drawing card: Reforge the Soul, Words of Wisdom or Sphinx of Enlightenment.

    Reforge the Soul has the easiest start, but it can only apply 7 times (against with 53 times for the other two), leading to the smallest final number. So this is only for the case where the other two are unable to start.

    Words of Wisdom can be boosted by Thousand-Year Storm, and reused by Goblin Dark-Dwellers, a "lower layered" card. However, one disadvantage is that it requires Mirror of Fate and Perpetual Timepiece for each reuse.

    Sphinx of Enlightenment can be boosted by Panharmonicon, and reused by Smite the Monstrous, a "higher layered" card.

    To get full usage of Words of Wisdom or Sphinx of Enlightenment, we need to setup all cards (deck without Consecrated Sphinx), or at least get massive amount of Consecrated Sphinxs (deck with it). Details are quite complicated...
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Using Flash to kill Centaur Safeguard - that require Centaur Safeguard in our hand. To bounce it we need to target it, which is very expensive (just as expensive as killing it via Horobi), such as spending R on Goblin Kites.

    And about the other deck: there is only one Centaur Safeguard, so how to take it on after getting its dying trigger from Child of Alara?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    If there is Underground Sea for U, a quick start might be Flashing the Academy Rector instead of playing and then killing it. Remove Mox Pearl from the deck. Is Flash okay (not going infinite in combo with other cards)?

    It seems that Goblin Welder is a fetching thing. Does it involve the Muzzio problem (grow the group of stage creature-PB triggers, then do the hyperstage transition to fetch stage creature and regenerate the hyperstage key resource)?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    More questions about that deck:

    1. What is the point to use Underground Sea for U?

    2. I don't see how to get Goblin Dark-Dwellers from battlefield to library... We need this once per Moggcatcher activation.

    3. Is March of the Machines necessary over Karn, Silver Golem?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    So we need "the combo number" many tapped Metallurgeons, then one effective resolve of Battle Cry untaps them.

    Let me think about how many things we need to get start.

    The stack should looks like this at least:
    • Top
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
    • ...
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
    • group of Battle Cry-TYS triggers (this is the top hyperstage transition, so we have this group of triggers)
    • group of Goblin Dark-Dwellers ETB triggers (still can cast Rebuild)
    • group of Mirrorworks triggers for Vedalken Orrery
    • Metallurgeon-PB trigger
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
    • ...
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
    • group of Rebuild-TYS triggers (not the top hyperstage transition, so we have this group of triggers)
    • group of Goblin Dark-Dwellers ETB triggers (fizzle due to lack of target)
    • group of Mirrorworks triggers for Vedalken Orrery
    • Metallurgeon-PB trigger - #1
    • Metallurgeon-BM trigger - #2
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers - #3
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
    • ...
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
    • group of Rebuild-TYS triggers
    • group of Goblin Dark-Dwellers ETB triggers (fizzle)
    • group of Mirrorworks triggers for Vedalken Orrery
    • Metallurgeon-PB trigger
    • Metallurgeon-BM trigger
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
    • Maybe other abilities
    When we build the stack above the #1, the combo number is X.

    After things resolve down, the combo number goes to approximately f_{w*2}(X).
    • Top
    • group of Mirrorworks triggers for Vedalken Orrery
    • Metallurgeon-PB trigger - #1
    • Metallurgeon-BM trigger - #2
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers - #3
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
    • ...
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
    • group of Metallurgeon-BM triggers
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
    • group of Rebuild-TYS triggers
    • group of Goblin Dark-Dwellers ETB triggers (fizzle)
    • group of Mirrorworks triggers for Vedalken Orrery
    • Metallurgeon-PB trigger
    • Metallurgeon-BM trigger
    • group of Metallurgeon-PB triggers
    • Maybe other abilities
    Get the token Vedalken Orrery. Now there is no haste Metallurgeon yet. The group of #3 is small, much smaller than f_{w*2}(X), and may be even smaller than X.
    Get a haste Metallurgeon from #1. #2 fetch the card.
    Resolve one trigger of #3, bounce Metallurgeon. Replay and counter, get approximately f_{w*2}(X) many triggers of #2.
    Activate the haste Metallurgeon, get many triggers of #1, and destroy the card.

    The exact number of triggers in #1 is not important. #2 is, because every trigger in #2 can lead to one tapped haste Metallurgeon, on average.

    When there is one trigger of #1 and one trigger of #2, we stop at approximately f_{w*2}(X) many tapped haste Metallurgeons, although we only have 0 untapped haste Metallurgeon.

    Now we can use a Moggcatcher, get Goblin Dark-Dwellers ETB triggers. Cast Battle Cry to get approximately f_{w*2}(X) many untapped haste Metallurgeons, then cast-counter Rebuild, get its TYS trigger.



    Okay it works. Now it is time to dive into some details of a Moggcatcher deck. Which one would you suggest?

    And what is the specific deck for the "pinned (see page 1)" post?

    From its words, I concluded that
    1. It is a Metallurgeon+Battle Cry+Moggcatcher deck.
    2. It uses Centaur Safeguard as life gainer, dying once per effective Child of Alara sweeper.
    3. We cannot have 3 or more colors of mana at megastage.
    4. We already have WG for Metallurgeon and Acorn Harvest at megastage.
    5. We cannot have (or at least, use) U at megastage.
    6. After Child of Alara sweeper, there is no Omniscience on battlefield.
    How do we get Omniscience on after sweeper, when we can only use WGC in pool? It has Eureka but that is expensive at megastage.

    Anyway, I'm still not aware of the setup after a Child of Alara sweeper or a Worldfire sweeper.

    And, in hyperstage transition, Strongarm Thug reuses itself and Moggcatcher within exactly one activation of Scattershot Archer, but how to get Goblin Dark-Dwellers off?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Sadly Moggcatcher things have a problem like this:

    One untapped haste Moggcatcher can get Goblin Dark-Dwellers on exactly once, which triggers its ETB ability many times due to Panharmonicon. It seems that we can cast both Battle Cry and Rebuild, but actually it doesn't.

    The ETB ability of Goblin Dark-Dwellers says "target instant or sorcery card". When an instant card is cast, then returns to the graveyard, it will become another object, then the ability loses its target. The ETB triggers are stick to each other, so we cannot insert PB triggers between them and cannot retarget after one ETB trigger starts to resolve.

    At the topmost hyperstage transition, we can cast both Battle Cry and Rebuild, but below it we can only cast one; the other card will be gone from graveyard.



    By the way, generally, in a deck using Child of Alara, Worldfire, Worldpurge, or any other sweeper removing all the "combo permanents" (usually Psychic Battle, Bloodbond March, Panharmonicon and Thousand-Year Storm), we cannot keep the number of combo permanents.

    For instance, before a sweeper we reach X combo permanents, then we push a sweeper on stack, along with some growing things. We may reach f_{w^2}(X) or f_{w^2+1}(X) or f_{w^2+2}(X) or f_{w^2+3}(X) combo permanents before the sweeper resolves. Sweeper clean all the combo permanents, bring us back to X.

    The only number we keep is storm count, or the instant/sorcery count in Thousand-Year Storm.
    (In the w^3 deck it seems that we have no way to keep number through Worldpurge.)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    The Wirewood Herald deck uses Muzzio, Visionary Architect so it has infinite loop.

    And I skimmed some old w^4 decks.

    Many used artifact-fetching cards like Muzzio, which would go infinite. But Arcum Dagsson seems to be interesting. It can fetch many artifacts, but not the stage creature.

    Many used champion cards like Boggart Mob, which would go infinite if plus we can get their Bloodbond March triggers. Moggcatcher seems to be something avoiding this problem.

    Are they useful to make a non-infinite w^4 deck?



    Edit:

    It seems that Arcum Dagsson fits the Chalice deck quite good.

    To let Arcum Dagsson's ability resolve, we need to get rid of Horobi, Death's Wail. The cheapest way is already being championed by Changeling Hero. Vedalken Orrery is not champion, so the only way to get it work is a Mirrorworks trigger below the alternative Anaba Ancestor-PB/BM triggers.

    However, one use of Engineered Explosives makes 2 alternative group of triggers of Anaba Ancestor, which still go infinite.



    Edit2:
    Oh no. Arcum Dagsson doesn't require any stage creature triggers in the below. A mirrorwork trigger of Vedalken Orrery is already enough to continue the reuse of Engineered Explosives. More infinite loops.

    Maybe the only hope is Metallurgeon+Battle Cry+Moggcatcher thing...
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Fetching problem (Muzzio, Visionary Architect): Infinite loop because we can destroy the stage creature, gain the PB trigger group a lot, and then use the hyperstage transition to fetch stage creature.

    Bloodbond March problem: When we play the champion creature, we can get BM triggers and use them to gain reuses of <=3-mana instants. We can insert stage creature triggers (and Vedalken Orrery gaining trigger) between the "bouncing the champion creature" triggers and champion creature-BM triggers.

    Are there still w^4 decks without the infinite loop problems? Or I would go down and look at w^3 decks.
    Posted in: Magic General
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