In a format light on counterspells, high on counter-hate, the best removal spell is a white instant, the best offensive creature is Baneslayer, and the best defensive creature is Wall of Denial? Yes, yes it will be good.
I said it was the counterspell to handle those problems, as well as many others.
So what you're saying is that:
Quote from Me, a page back »
Essence Scatter and Negate are main deckable only in certain metagames
If that's been your point all along then, yes, I agree with you.
Baneslayer isn't control? Are you and I playing the same standard? Just because a deck plays several critters doesn't mean that it's aggro. It's definitely control. Control is not simply defined as "all counterspells and removal." It's one of the most controlling decks there is, centered around protecting one or two solid creatures while negating your other efforts.
This is going into the realm of pointless Magic theory, so I'll rephrase:
In this metagame, Baneslayer tends to take the role of the beatdown, rather than the control. I say this because Baneslayer has a fairly awful long game. It does assume the control role against decks like Elves, Kithkin and Jund. But against 5CC, Fae*, Lark and Merfolk* it has to play the aggressor, because either their late game is better than Baneslayer's, or their mid-game is stronger than Baneslayers. *technically* they achieve this against 5CC and Lark by trying to protect a creature with counterspells and Archmage, but that goes into that stupid area of magic theory I don't feel like going into, because ultimately it's pointless.
*= ofc these match-ups are ungodly abysmal for the deck, but that's beside the point. You won't win the mid-game against Merfolk/Fae, so your only option is to play an awkward U/W aggro deck.
WotC is finally learning this, and adjusting the game in the best direction its ever been. Sales prove it.
Thank god for the above poster quoting this, I missed it.
I have no idea how much statistics you know. I'm going to hope that you know what the difference between correlation and causation is.
That statement is definitely correlation, if there is any correlation at all.
The only decks that can really play control, Lark and 5CC, both play Broken Ambitions, as does Fae. Merfolk plays Sage's Dousing ofc, but that's because, as it turns out, a cantripping Mana Leak is good.
Baneslayer is hardly classifiable as control, since it's long game is actually kind of awful, and it wins games just by aggroing out w/ Knight/Clique as much as it does actually playing Baneslayers.
Broken Ambitions and Cryptic are by far the defining counterspells of the format. Essence Scatter is second rate, unsurprisingly.
Yes I realize that no deck played 20 counterspells. However the option is there. The only one that came closes was UR Swans, which ran 16. I'm saying, what more do control players want?
And yes, those cards ARE maindeckable counterspells. Permission players are simply wanting to be too greedy with their counters, wanting more power. The problem is that a 2 mana hard answer to anything that can be played is too powerful. Permission where it is right now, is probably as good as it should be. It's fair and balanced.
The option also exists for me to have played Cancel or Unsummon. I have any number of options for how I build my deck. But if we put in the fairly common rule for competitive players, that their deck be competitive while playing at a competitive level, then I have relatively few options. Those options are what the metagame dictates.
Essence Scatter and Negate are main deckable only in certain metagames, and they have never been played instead of Broken Ambitions in Standard, which has been a chaotic, but otherwise healthy, meta. Typically, they're SB cards. Because against any field that has any sort of openness, Negate & Essence Scatter are simply too narrow. In a format that includes both aggro and control decks, you either have to run both (which pushes you into the awkward "midrange" archetype, since against half of your opponents your counters are useless and will get SBed out), or run a counterspell that's actually dependable. I personally would rather just play aggro than build a half-baked, midrange permission deck, if Negate/Essence Scatter are my only options.
Ironically, in the coming metagame, assuming that there really isn't much control, Essence Scatter would be a very reasonable main deck card. Because in this format, aggro is so rampant that it's essentially a hard counter. That doesn't prove that Essence Scatter is good in most metagames, or is even necessarily a good card. In fact, its quite subpar in most healthy metagames, where Aggro/Control/Combo are balanced. A metagame where control doesn't exist is not a healthy metagame.
With Broken Ambitions and Countersquall, there were 4 2-mana "maindeckable" counters in standard. That's a possible 16 counterspells by turn 2. Add in Cryptic Command, and you can have as many as 20 maindecked counters. That's insane.
No competitive deck in standard runs 20 maindeck counterspells. Most run 7 or 8: Broken and Cryptic. Strategies might have a few Negate/Essence Scatter in the SB, but they never bring both in for a match-up. They are all 'main-deckable,' but Negate/Essence scatter aren't main-deckable as a 4 of. Neither can be played MD next to each other. They're meta calls and SB cards.
The problem with Countermagic is keeping it effectively balanced. Too little and it's too weak. Too much and everyone hates the format because playing with/against permission decks is less fun than bashing your head against the wall multiple times.
But do people hate the strategy because the strategy is a bit of a 'griefer' strategy, in that it's intrinsically unfun (such as LD, where you can actually do nothing...), or because they don't know how to beat it?
I absolutely hated to play against anything with a counterspell when I first started playing. Once I figured out how to play against permission, I was completely fine with it. Is this true for most people? Idk. But now I'm curious.
Honestly even if control continues to stay tap-out-control, I'd be fine with it. I enjoy playing giant splashy spells. What completely nauseates me right now is thinking of a standard where the control end of the spectrum is empty :S
Counterspells needs to exist, of course. The thing is that they should be a support for the deck, to be used against key targets, not against everything that your opponent tries to play. The same is true for discard and land destruction.
There's nothing wrong with permission-denial cards. But when you can make a competitive deck based solely on those, there's something wrong.
I guess the ol' Force Spike is really obsolete now. I like Spell Pierce, and it's also a flavorful evolution to it's predecessor (Spike?Pierce?Get it?).
As for gameplay. it's essecially a faster Negate. Being able to leave only U open will be very useful for casting your bombs quicker. However late game it's a dead draw.
If this was Force Spike or even Mana Tithe I'd be giddy like a school girl. Unfortunately for it, I'm not.
Spell pierce U
Counter target noncreature spell unless it's owner pays an additional 2
Honestly this card seems playable in standard without question, it destroys counter wars. It does what you want a negate to do at least 80% of the time while costing a whole mana less.
Seems WIN to me. Your thoughts?
What counter wars will exist post-rotation? This card seems fail to me without a better counter at 1 or 2cc. I really hope we get another counterspell.
That first ability is probably the sole reason he has CMC 6. I mean, I think its going to be like ajani goldmane. I don't think people are going to be playing him for his final ability. I mean, while it is pretty good, that first ability is insane.
His second ability essentially Time Walks. There's no reason not to play it, b/c you'll get rid of any ways to hurt Sorin (like Maelstrom Pulse or something) and get to use his +2 ability on your turn... he'll be played for both.
Honestly I don't think the weak counterspells lately are a reflection of what they want Blue to look like, but what they don't want Faeries to look like. I would bet money that once Zendikar is in and Lorwyn block is out, we'll get something of Rune Snag or Remand level back.
HA... that's a good one. Ranger is only good because of one card. This card has a random chance of hitting a single card that good... that's not better no matter how you slice it.
don't agree.
The fact that the Cascade spell are overcosted (therefore you get a tempo loss by playing that) cancel out with the fact that you can play a card for free with ( therefore you get a tempo gain).
This a crucial fact to take into account and many people seem to forget
Are you saying that a 3/2 Haste isn't all that great? Blasphemy!
BTW, cascade off bituminous also allows for the possibility of instant creatures and planewalkers, maelstrom pulse, oblivion stone, wrath, etc. This shouldn't be understated.
You really ought to understate the instant planeswalkers thing. I kind of hope that, just once, I have, like, an Incinerate in hand when someone gets an Ajani Vengeant in the combat phase, so I can kill him before he uses an ability. I'll take my planeswalkers the old fashion way
So, a creature that spots you a Fireblast for 4 mana that is also a signifcant body with Haste... Yes, Bloodbraid Elf is the best card in Alara Reborn. It's not just hype with this card.
Or it spots you the Mogg Fanatic or Figure of Destiny you run as your one drop. Can't get 'em all. Sometimes this Fireblast fizzles.
And Bloodbraid itself is trash. I maintain that it is one of the the worst p/t it could have right now. If it was a 1RG 3/2 Haste, it wouldn't see play, ever. Plumeveil will laugh at this thing all day.
If that's been your point all along then, yes, I agree with you.
This is going into the realm of pointless Magic theory, so I'll rephrase:
In this metagame, Baneslayer tends to take the role of the beatdown, rather than the control. I say this because Baneslayer has a fairly awful long game. It does assume the control role against decks like Elves, Kithkin and Jund. But against 5CC, Fae*, Lark and Merfolk* it has to play the aggressor, because either their late game is better than Baneslayer's, or their mid-game is stronger than Baneslayers. *technically* they achieve this against 5CC and Lark by trying to protect a creature with counterspells and Archmage, but that goes into that stupid area of magic theory I don't feel like going into, because ultimately it's pointless.
*= ofc these match-ups are ungodly abysmal for the deck, but that's beside the point. You won't win the mid-game against Merfolk/Fae, so your only option is to play an awkward U/W aggro deck.
Thank god for the above poster quoting this, I missed it.
I have no idea how much statistics you know. I'm going to hope that you know what the difference between correlation and causation is.
That statement is definitely correlation, if there is any correlation at all.
The only decks that can really play control, Lark and 5CC, both play Broken Ambitions, as does Fae. Merfolk plays Sage's Dousing ofc, but that's because, as it turns out, a cantripping Mana Leak is good.
Baneslayer is hardly classifiable as control, since it's long game is actually kind of awful, and it wins games just by aggroing out w/ Knight/Clique as much as it does actually playing Baneslayers.
Broken Ambitions and Cryptic are by far the defining counterspells of the format. Essence Scatter is second rate, unsurprisingly.
The option also exists for me to have played Cancel or Unsummon. I have any number of options for how I build my deck. But if we put in the fairly common rule for competitive players, that their deck be competitive while playing at a competitive level, then I have relatively few options. Those options are what the metagame dictates.
Essence Scatter and Negate are main deckable only in certain metagames, and they have never been played instead of Broken Ambitions in Standard, which has been a chaotic, but otherwise healthy, meta. Typically, they're SB cards. Because against any field that has any sort of openness, Negate & Essence Scatter are simply too narrow. In a format that includes both aggro and control decks, you either have to run both (which pushes you into the awkward "midrange" archetype, since against half of your opponents your counters are useless and will get SBed out), or run a counterspell that's actually dependable. I personally would rather just play aggro than build a half-baked, midrange permission deck, if Negate/Essence Scatter are my only options.
Ironically, in the coming metagame, assuming that there really isn't much control, Essence Scatter would be a very reasonable main deck card. Because in this format, aggro is so rampant that it's essentially a hard counter. That doesn't prove that Essence Scatter is good in most metagames, or is even necessarily a good card. In fact, its quite subpar in most healthy metagames, where Aggro/Control/Combo are balanced. A metagame where control doesn't exist is not a healthy metagame.
No competitive deck in standard runs 20 maindeck counterspells. Most run 7 or 8: Broken and Cryptic. Strategies might have a few Negate/Essence Scatter in the SB, but they never bring both in for a match-up. They are all 'main-deckable,' but Negate/Essence scatter aren't main-deckable as a 4 of. Neither can be played MD next to each other. They're meta calls and SB cards.
I absolutely hated to play against anything with a counterspell when I first started playing. Once I figured out how to play against permission, I was completely fine with it. Is this true for most people? Idk. But now I'm curious.
Honestly even if control continues to stay tap-out-control, I'd be fine with it. I enjoy playing giant splashy spells. What completely nauseates me right now is thinking of a standard where the control end of the spectrum is empty :S
Yes. Very well said.
If this was Force Spike or even Mana Tithe I'd be giddy like a school girl. Unfortunately for it, I'm not.
What counter wars will exist post-rotation? This card seems fail to me without a better counter at 1 or 2cc. I really hope we get another counterspell.
His second ability essentially Time Walks. There's no reason not to play it, b/c you'll get rid of any ways to hurt Sorin (like Maelstrom Pulse or something) and get to use his +2 ability on your turn... he'll be played for both.
Don't play Extended much, do you?
Are you saying that a 3/2 Haste isn't all that great? Blasphemy!
Or accurate, but w/e.
Or it spots you the Mogg Fanatic or Figure of Destiny you run as your one drop. Can't get 'em all. Sometimes this Fireblast fizzles.
And Bloodbraid itself is trash. I maintain that it is one of the the worst p/t it could have right now. If it was a 1RG 3/2 Haste, it wouldn't see play, ever. Plumeveil will laugh at this thing all day.